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Does it say "All units must have Mark of Khorne if they are able to"? Or does it say "All units that have [MARK] must take Khorne"?

Because there is a HUGE difference between the two.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Does it say "All units must have Mark of Khorne if they are able to"? Or does it say "All units that have [MARK] must take Khorne"?

Because there is a HUGE difference between the two.

I can't believe you're still hung up about this.

"all WORLD EATERS units must have the KHORNE keyword if they are able to do so"

This doesn't mean "You can ignore all other special rules and pick the KHORNE keyword." It's written this way so you don't take World Eaters with NO mark instead of the Mark of Khorne.

The rule says they must have the KHORNE keyword. A psyker cannot have the Khorne keyword. Therefore a World Eaters can never be a Psyker.

"If they are able to do so."

Can Psykers take Mark of Khorne?

No? Then they are not able to. Therefore, they can still qualify.

Do you or do you not understand the difference between "All units must have Mark of Khorne if they are able to"? and "All units that have [MARK] must take Khorne"?

 Yarium wrote:
It's a Chicken or the Egg issue, as it is entirely dependent on the order that you read it in.

If you read it in the order that the unit (Sorcerer) must take a Mark or No Mark, and that Psykers can't be Khorne, and then read that World Eaters must be Khorne if able, then World Eaters can get Khornate Sorcerers. In this way, it's like you're choosing your entire army first, and then choosing the Legion afterwards.

The other way is to read the two rules in reverse, starting with "I am taking a World Eaters Legion" and making selections at that point. In this way, you would first make your army list a World Eaters army, then you start making the selections to include the Sorcerer, but would be unable to do so, as you couldn't select Khorne, which is a requirement for being in the World Eaters detachment. At that point, you have to give up on selecting the unit.

Thankfully, everyone knows the you can't. If you brought this to tournament I was running and said due to a technicality that your Sorcerer could still be a World Eater, even without the Mark of Khorne, then I'd laugh at you and say to fix your list.

I agree with the first bit. As to the second...

If you, as a TO, laughed at me for violating fluff and told me to get rid of some of my models, I'd walk out and never attend another of your events. I'd recommend to all of my friends to never attend another of your events. Assume a new player attends your event. This is his first real event. He's spent hundreds of dollars and hundreds of hours prepping his army. He walks in and the tournament organizer laughs at him and tells him he can't use some of his models and that he should have known better. He'll probably never attend another event again. He'll probably instantly regret buying into this hobby. He would be entitled to those feelings and thoughts.

"Thankfully, everyone know the [sic] you can't..." How does a new player know that he can't take a Sorcerer in a World Eaters army? Because it's not fluffy? I guess you also can't field Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors alongside Daemonhosts. That's grade A heresy. You probably also can't field Dark Angels alongside Space Wolves. The Wolves didn't seem to appreciate having their planet carpet bombed. Etc, etc. 7th Edition allowed you to field a mixed Grey Knight/Chaos Daemons army. Admitting that a World Eaters Librarian might still be kicking around seems far less heretical.

 JNAProductions wrote:
No? Then they are not able to. Therefore, they can still qualify.

That is not the case. You can't be World Eaters without picking the Mark of Khorne. There are no <LEGION> units without <MARK> also.

Not only are you wrong from a rules standpoint, it will be FAQ'd for you to be wrong too (though it doesn't need to be).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kriswall wrote:
How does a new player know that he can't take a Sorcerer in a World Eaters army?

The special rule saying a Psyker cannot take Mark of Khorne, and the rule saying World Eaters must pick the Mark of Khorne. The game might be marketed to 11 year olds now, but it's not Hello Kitty Online.

Do you or do you not understand the difference between "All units must have Mark of Khorne if they are able to"? and "All units that have [MARK] must take Khorne"?

 JNAProductions wrote:
Do you or do you not understand the difference between "All units must have Mark of Khorne if they are able to"? and "All units that have [MARK] must take Khorne"?

Of course I do, what you are doing is ignoring the fact that a Sorcerer cannot take the MoK, which means it can't be World Eaters.

You clearly do not understand the difference.

The first one allows for non-Khorne units to be taken in a World Eaters army-INCLUDING SORCERERS.

The second allows for non-Khorne units ONLY IF THEY HAVE NO MARK, which would disallow Sorcerers.

Now, unless you tell me that the second is what's actually in the rulebook, then you can take a World Eater's Sorcerer.

"...all World Eaters units must have the Khorne keyword if they are able to do so..."

"Note that Psykers cannot have the Khorne keyword."

Like Yarium said, it depends on the order of operations:

Sorcerers have the ability to choose a Mark so they have to choose Khorne to be WE, but they can't choose Khorne because they are a psyker. This means that they can't be WE because they have the ability to choose a Mark but it can't be Khorne.

OR

Sorcerers are not able to choose the Khorne mark and since they are not able to do so they are excempt from WE restrictions per the WE legion rules. This means they can be WE.

RAW, both can be argued but the second seems more coherent (seriously BaconCatBug, sometimes it sounded like you were giving evidence against your arguement).

RAI, it's the first arguement: no Khorne Sorcerers!

 mrhappyface wrote:
RAI, it's the first arguement: no Khorne Sorcerers!

Agreed on that.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
RAI, it's the first arguement: no Khorne Sorcerers!

Agreed on that.

Also agreed. I'm expecting to see an FAQ at some point seeing as how a strict reading of RAW with no confirmation bias allows it.

 Kriswall wrote:
If you, as a TO, laughed at me for violating fluff and told me to get rid of some of my models, I'd walk out and never attend another of your events.

, I would politely listen to your argument, and then inform you that by our opinion as the runners of the tournament, you are in error. We would help you construct a legal list that is as close to what you have currently taken as possible, and/or likely find some other unit in your codex/index that the Khorne Sorcerer could represent. Quickly typed, that's me saying I laugh and tell them to fix their list.

Decent tournaments lost check. Your list would have been rejected weeks before.

 Yarium wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
If you, as a TO, laughed at me for violating fluff and told me to get rid of some of my models, I'd walk out and never attend another of your events.

, I would politely listen to your argument, and then inform you that by our opinion as the runners of the tournament, you are in error. We would help you construct a legal list that is as close to what you have currently taken as possible, and/or likely find some other unit in your codex/index that the Khorne Sorcerer could represent. Quickly typed, that's me saying I laugh and tell them to fix their list.

Probably worth giving your words a little thought before typing them, then. If you approached the issue politely and in a helpful manner, I'd be aggravated that the rules don't match how people are playing the game, but I'd stay and play.

Brian888 wrote:
My take: It's pretty clear that when the codex says, "All World Eaters units must have the Mark of Khorne, if they are able to do so", it means that if a unit has the <MARK> keyword, then that mark must be designated as KHORNE for that unit to be in the World Eaters. If a unit does not have the <MARK> keyword to begin with, then it can still be in the World Eaters. Sorcerers have the <MARK> keyword, but they cannot designate it as KHORNE. Therefore, they cannot be in the World Eaters.

And really, why would Khorne permit psykers in his pet Legion, even assuming any remained in the Legion after the Council of Nikaea? He usually sics Karanak on psykers.

Except that's not what it says. I see people constantly misquoting the words in this thread. There is no requirement for a Mark, these rules are located within the Mark of Chaos rules already. It would insane to self-reference. What the rules say is that "All World Eaters units must have the KHORNE keyword if they are able to do so". That's it.

You can definitely read it two ways but grammar supports the way that brings about the Sorcerer. There's a huge thread about this on facebook and here are some of the examples I've seen.

"All WORLD EATER must have the Khorne keyword if they are able to do so"
"All PLAYERS must pay the tournament fee if they are participating in the event"
"All EMPLOYEES must attend the meeting if they are able to do so"
"All SHAPES must have four sides if they are squares"

When you fail to meet the requirement for the if statement then you don't have to do what it's attached to.

Players not participating in the event do not have to pay the fee, but they are still Players.
Employees not able to make it do not have to attend the meeting, but they are still Employees.
Shapes not able to be squares do not have to have four sides, but they are still Shapes.

Simply failing to meet the criteria for a condition does not negate your ability to select the World Eaters tag when it's clearly expressed as a sternly worded suggestion that restricts your options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the same token, if a unit had no mark of chaos rule at all yet still somehow could choose a legion, it wouldn't need to have the Khorne keyword at all. These rules referring to World Eaters are purely related to what Marks they are allowed to choose from if they are able to do so and there is nowhere in the book that specifically requires all World Eaters units to actually have the Khorne keyword before joining the Legion. If you didn't have the Mark of Chaos rule you wouldn't even notice this rule in the first place.

That said I can perfectly understand why some people may have mistaken it for saying that it applied to if you are able to take a mark of chaos at all. At which point we have to also consider whether things like Rubrics that don't have the option to choose a mark of chaos at all are still affected. After all, these restrictions are solely found in the mark of chaos rules and Rubrics do not even have such a rule.

Can't believe I missed it in the FAQ, yet managed to spot the entry for EC.

The FAQ for the Chaos INDEX says :

- Servants of Khorne
Add the following to the end of this paragraph:
‘If a unit has the Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh keywords, it cannot be from the World Eaters Legion.’

Which is pretty straight forward. It just means that someone forgot that when they were doing the Codex, or it was too late to correct.

Roll on the Chaos Codex FAQ!

Fictional wrote:
Can't believe I missed it in the FAQ, yet managed to spot the entry for EC.

The FAQ for the Chaos INDEX says :

- Servants of Khorne
Add the following to the end of this paragraph:
‘If a unit has the Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh keywords, it cannot be from the World Eaters Legion.’

Which is pretty straight forward. It just means that someone forgot that when they were doing the Codex, or it was too late to correct.

Roll on the Chaos Codex FAQ!

If you have a <MARK> you can still choose to not have one. But this does 100% prevent rubrics, noise and plague marines from being World Eaters Legion. Still debatable if sorcerers can unfluffully join World Eaters.

Fictional wrote:
Can't believe I missed it in the FAQ, yet managed to spot the entry for EC.

The FAQ for the Chaos INDEX says :

- Servants of Khorne
Add the following to the end of this paragraph:
‘If a unit has the Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh keywords, it cannot be from the World Eaters Legion.’

Which is pretty straight forward. It just means that someone forgot that when they were doing the Codex, or it was too late to correct.

Roll on the Chaos Codex FAQ!

Doesn't really have anything to do with this question though because the Sorcerer could just be unmarked.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
So is everyone ignoring the rule that says "Note that PSYKERS cannot have the KHORNE keyword"? Because all I see are people ignoring that rule and arguing in bad faith.

You cannot have the Mark of Khorne if you're a Psyker. World Eaters must pick the Mark of Khorn "if they are able to". The Sorcerer, being a PSYKER has a special rule saying it "cannot have the KHORNE keyword". Therefore, you cannot pick World Eater because you cannot pick the Mark of Khorne. "If they are able to" does not permit you to ignore all other special rules.

You're missing everyone else's point. No-one is ignoring anything or arguing in bad faith.

To be bulletproof, and read unambiguously as you read it, the WE rule should read "If a model is able to choose a Mark of Chaos, it must choose the Mark of Khorne." Even better, tag on "Sorcerers may not gain the WORLD EATERS keyword" or similar.

Fluffwise, of course and as the OP stated, no Sorcerers in the WE. Intent is also pretty damn clear. But they didn't entirely close the loop here.

 Kriswall wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
What definition would you assign to it? Because common English is on my side here.

Is a model from the World Eaters able to take any other mark? No. Is a Sorcerer able to take a Mark of Khorne? No. Therefore, No Mark of Khorne for Sorcerers. It's simple, basic Boolean logic.

It's an AND gate.

Can a sorcerer have a mark of khorne? No (so 0)
Does a World Eater have the Mark of Khorne if it has the <MARK> keyword? Yes.

No AND Yes result in No.

You are thinking "if able to" to mean ALWAYS MUST HAVE IT, but it's actually meaning if you can pick a mark, you have to pick Khorne, not the other 3 or no mark.

You first assertion is wrong. Is a model from the World Eaters able to take any other mark? Sure? Why not? We just know that IF THAT MODEL IS ABLE, it must take the Mark of Khorne. Nothing in that statement tells me that I can't take a different Mark (or no Mark) if the model is unable to take the Mark of Khorne for some reason.

Is a World Eaters Chaos Lord unit able to take the Mark of Khorne? Yes. Therefore, it is required to.
Is a World Eaters Chaos Sorcerer unit able to take the Mark of Khorne? No. Therefore, it is not required to.

The requirement only exists when the World Eaters unit is ABLE to take the Mark of Khorne. The real question is whether or not a Chaos Sorcerer can select the World Eaters keyword. If not, this is a moot issue. I see no restriction preventing a Sorcerer from belonging to the World Eaters Legion. I also see no restriction saying that only units which can select the Mark of Khorne can be given the World Eaters keyword.

Honestly, this doesn't really bother me. The pre-Heresy World Eaters had Librarians. It's not unreasonable to think that a Librarian turned along with the rest of the Chapter and his control of the warp has prevented him from falling to Khorne. He'd likely be unmarked at that point. Hell, I could see Tzeentch marking him and giving him the tools to appear Khornate. Forge that narrative!

It is ABLE to take a Mark of Khorne

but it is PREVENTED from taking a Mark of Khorne


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Sorcerers have the ability to choose a Mark so they have to choose Khorne to be WE, but they can't choose Khorne because they are a psyker. This means that they can't be WE because they have the ability to choose a Mark but it can't be Khorne.

This

In fluff world eaters do use sorcerers to navigate there ships they are treated like dirt but they do exist (most of them are mercenaries or slaves) Them being used in battle would be rare but it can happen. In dawn of war winter assault the chaos lord Krull hired some merc sorcerers to preform the required rituals to taint a imperator titan.

On a related issue, can Khorne Berzerkers be Emperor's Children? Because for Berzerkers I could imagine that fighting first is in some conditions at least as attractive as +1 attack on a charge. It seems weird to me, but I can't find a rule that bans it, or am I missing something?

 JNAProductions wrote:
World Eaters must take Mark Of Khorne if they are able to.

Sorcerers cannot, so they don't have to, and can still be part of it.

I agree that it's not RAI, I agree that it's dumb, and I agree that you should not play it. RAW, though...

^^^All of this.

Malachon wrote:
On a related issue, can Khorne Berzerkers be Emperor's Children? Because for Berzerkers I could imagine that fighting first is in some conditions at least as attractive as +1 attack on a charge. It seems weird to me, but I can't find a rule that bans it, or am I missing something?

You can have emperor's children berserkers it is weird but you can.

Malachon wrote:
On a related issue, can Khorne Berzerkers be Emperor's Children? Because for Berzerkers I could imagine that fighting first is in some conditions at least as attractive as +1 attack on a charge. It seems weird to me, but I can't find a rule that bans it, or am I missing something?

 Rydria wrote:

Malachon wrote:
On a related issue, can Khorne Berzerkers be Emperor's Children? Because for Berzerkers I could imagine that fighting first is in some conditions at least as attractive as +1 attack on a charge. It seems weird to me, but I can't find a rule that bans it, or am I missing something?

You can have emperor's children berserkers it is weird but you can.

No, for the same reason as the rest of the thread...

All Emperor's Children must have Slaanesh

Khorne Berzerkers have Khorne


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, I'm reading the Chaos Codex

What page does it say that Sorcerer's can't have Khorne?

 Talamare wrote:

Malachon wrote:
On a related issue, can Khorne Berzerkers be Emperor's Children? Because for Berzerkers I could imagine that fighting first is in some conditions at least as attractive as +1 attack on a charge. It seems weird to me, but I can't find a rule that bans it, or am I missing something?

 Rydria wrote:

Malachon wrote:
On a related issue, can Khorne Berzerkers be Emperor's Children? Because for Berzerkers I could imagine that fighting first is in some conditions at least as attractive as +1 attack on a charge. It seems weird to me, but I can't find a rule that bans it, or am I missing something?

You can have emperor's children berserkers it is weird but you can.

No, for the same reason as the rest of the thread...

All Emperor's Children must have Slaanesh

Khorne Berzerkers have Khorne


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, I'm reading the Chaos Codex

What page does it say that Sorcerer's can't have Khorne?

p116, Mark of Chaos, end of second para

If only it said:

"All units in a world eaters detachment must have the mark of khorne, or not have any mark keyword."

blaktoof wrote:
If only it said:

"All units in a world eaters detachment must have the mark of khorne, or not have any mark keyword."

If only there was some rule that allowed a unit to be in a WE detachment when it is not able to take the mark of Khorne...

 mrhappyface wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
If only it said:

"All units in a world eaters detachment must have the mark of khorne, or not have any mark keyword."

If only there was some rule that allowed a unit to be in a WE detachment when it is not able to take the mark of Khorne...

It's fine if you're not able to take it
It's not fine if you're able to take it and you restricted from taking it

A citizen is able to walk into a restricted military base
A citizen is restricted from walking into a restricted military base

 Talamare wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
If only it said:

"All units in a world eaters detachment must have the mark of khorne, or not have any mark keyword."

If only there was some rule that allowed a unit to be in a WE detachment when it is not able to take the mark of Khorne...

It's fine if you're not able to take it
It's not fine if you're able to take it and you restricted from taking it

A citizen is able to walk into a restricted military base
A citizen is restricted from walking into a restricted military base

But surely the restriction takes away the ability?

Some bloke - "I am able to walk through this door"
Cheaky Locksmith - "I've just put a lock on it and eaten the key"
Some bloke - "I am no longer able to walk through this door"

In the same fashion,

Sorcerer - "I am able to take the mark of Khorne"
GW - "You're a filthy sorcerer so I won't let you take the mark of Khorne"
Sorcerer - "I am no longer able to take the mark of Khorne"