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 gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:

 fallinq wrote:

 MrVulcanator wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Well, I don't know about the least evil. But the Emperor's Children are without a doubt the most evil. They'll commit any atrocity just feel something. They also disgust the other Legion's and even each other to the point of not usually being able to work together. Not, to mention they can even "squick" Dark Eldar...

It amuses me that their numbers are pretty low because the other legions were so disgusted by their atrocities and so irritated by their behavior, that they all beat the #@%! out of the Emperor's Children.

Well a big part of that was them working with Fabius Bile when he cloned Horus, leading to them getting their kicked by the Black Legion, followed by picking a fight with the World Eaters, leading to both of them getting their kicked by Kharn.

Shortly after the Heresy the Emperor's Children made one bad decision after another.

As well as their actions a Terra, basically leaving the battle to go pillaging.

That was hilarious though.

"Ok, you guys handle the fighting. We're gonna run off and have a party/terrorize the population." *bails on siege*

Scumbag Emperor's Children should be a meme.

 MrVulcanator wrote:
So I know that Chaos Warbands tend to lean towards the absurd end of evilness

Spoiler:

, but are there any Chaos Warbands that aren't particularly malevolent, perhaps even benevolent?

I mean we have a well disciplined Khornate cult army, perhaps somewhere in the grim darkness™ there exists a less brutal Chaos Warband.

Not in new 40k. Chaos is evil. Evil evil evil evil evil evil.



...you sound like a heretic for asking this.

Well, for the most part, all of the Chaos Warbands are evil in their own right.

But if I had to choose I would say Thousand Sons and Blood Gorgons.

The Thousand Sons because they got a lot...A lot of undeserved gak, that drove them to Chaos in the first place.

The Blood Gorgons because they are the closest thing we have to a 'reasonable' Chaos Warband

Not to mention that both are the only Warbands that treat their slaves decently.

 fallinq wrote:

 MrVulcanator wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Well, I don't know about the least evil. But the Emperor's Children are without a doubt the most evil. They'll commit any atrocity just feel something. They also disgust the other Legion's and even each other to the point of not usually being able to work together. Not, to mention they can even "squick" Dark Eldar...

It amuses me that their numbers are pretty low because the other legions were so disgusted by their atrocities and so irritated by their behavior, that they all beat the #@%! out of the Emperor's Children.

Well a big part of that was them working with Fabius Bile when he cloned Horus, leading to them getting their kicked by the Black Legion, followed by picking a fight with the World Eaters, leading to both of them getting their kicked by Kharn.

Shortly after the Heresy the Emperor's Children made one bad decision after another.

They didn't just clone Horus. They attacked the Luna Wolves without mercy, desecrated his memorial, violated his body and then, cloned him. They also cloned Fulgrim a couple of times as well. Then they Abandoned the siege of Terra to run laughing through the streets and cooking people down for drugs. Then they bailed on the rest of the legions during the scouring to reap entire systems for grins.
before join everyone else in the Eye to start the legion wars... Then the fact that their all sensation addicts that will sell out anyone for a quick fix. Oh, and the towering arrogance.

They also murdered all of there own legion serfs and slaves, then went on to attack other legions to take all there slaves and serfs which didn't put them in a positive light with other legions.

 Sersi wrote:

 fallinq wrote:

 MrVulcanator wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Well, I don't know about the least evil. But the Emperor's Children are without a doubt the most evil. They'll commit any atrocity just feel something. They also disgust the other Legion's and even each other to the point of not usually being able to work together. Not, to mention they can even "squick" Dark Eldar...

It amuses me that their numbers are pretty low because the other legions were so disgusted by their atrocities and so irritated by their behavior, that they all beat the #@%! out of the Emperor's Children.

Well a big part of that was them working with Fabius Bile when he cloned Horus, leading to them getting their kicked by the Black Legion, followed by picking a fight with the World Eaters, leading to both of them getting their kicked by Kharn.

Shortly after the Heresy the Emperor's Children made one bad decision after another.

They didn't just clone Horus. They attacked the Luna Wolves without mercy, desecrated his memorial, violated his body and then, cloned him. They also cloned Fulgrim a couple of times as well. Then they Abandoned the siege of Terra to run laughing through the streets and cooking people down for drugs. Then they bailed on the rest of the legions during the scouring to reap entire systems for grins.
before join everyone else in the Eye to start the legion wars... Then the fact that their all sensation addicts that will sell out anyone for a quick fix. Oh, and the towering arrogance.

Like I said


Scumbag EC should be a meme.

 fallinq wrote:

 Sersi wrote:

 fallinq wrote:

 MrVulcanator wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Well, I don't know about the least evil. But the Emperor's Children are without a doubt the most evil. They'll commit any atrocity just feel something. They also disgust the other Legion's and even each other to the point of not usually being able to work together. Not, to mention they can even "squick" Dark Eldar...

It amuses me that their numbers are pretty low because the other legions were so disgusted by their atrocities and so irritated by their behavior, that they all beat the #@%! out of the Emperor's Children.

Well a big part of that was them working with Fabius Bile when he cloned Horus, leading to them getting their kicked by the Black Legion, followed by picking a fight with the World Eaters, leading to both of them getting their kicked by Kharn.

Shortly after the Heresy the Emperor's Children made one bad decision after another.

They didn't just clone Horus. They attacked the Luna Wolves without mercy, desecrated his memorial, violated his body and then, cloned him. They also cloned Fulgrim a couple of times as well. Then they Abandoned the siege of Terra to run laughing through the streets and cooking people down for drugs. Then they bailed on the rest of the legions during the scouring to reap entire systems for grins.
before join everyone else in the Eye to start the legion wars... Then the fact that their all sensation addicts that will sell out anyone for a quick fix. Oh, and the towering arrogance.

Like I said


Scumbag EC should be a meme.

Any chance of the source image with no text? Have quite a few ideas for this.

Wow did everyone suddenly forget about Blood Gorgons. They are the chaos warband with the strongest brotherhood bonds (they exchange organs to prove their loyalty) and while they aren't the kindest of the bunch all they wabt to do is be free of the Imperium and/or any chaos god in particular. So yeah they could as well be in the list with some of the kindest guys out there.

Papa Nurgle loves all His children

 B Stores wrote:
Papa Nurgle loves all His children

Papa Nurgle is cool, he even lets the unscrupulous Emperor's children tag along with his daemons (despite them worshiping another god) because he and his children love listening to music no matter how awful it is : P

 Rydria wrote:
Papa Nurgle is cool, he even lets the unscrupulous Emperor's children tag along with his daemons (despite them worshiping another god)

Letting your kids anywhere near an Emperor's children is the opposite of cool. Won't someone think of the Children ?

I see Ahriman's prodigal sons as chaotic neutral at worst. with individual sorcerers ranging from good to evil. a lot of loyalist space marine chapters are way more evil than they are for example Dark Angels who are the classic lawful evil. so in that light I would have to put the prodigal sons in the least evil catagory.

 lord of corn wrote:
I see Ahriman's prodigal sons as chaotic neutral at worst. with individual sorcerers ranging from good to evil. a lot of loyalist space marine chapters are way more evil than they are for example Dark Angels who are the classic lawful evil. so in that light I would have to put the prodigal sons in the least evil catagory.

But Dark Angels are traitors...

some were yes, all the legions had traitors though, I don't want to get too far off topic but I don't se how that doesn't make them lawful evil in their current state in 41st millennium.

It was a joke. And now you killed it :(.

Alpha legion are suposebly not evil, although they are very big picture and are willing to break some eggs to make an omulet.

Invent a warband who wants to end suffering, by making them worship nurgle and become imune. Or something. As long a the goal is just evil deads are often good deeds.

For instance all of the cultists in genestealer cults are all good guys. They are throwing down the emperor to bring ascention. Little do they know ascention means getting eaten.

One could ague that in being returned to biomass they are returned to the source of all life, and the hive mind can rebirth them later on. The only glitch with that is that most things being rebirthed by the hive mind are not very self aware or induvidualistic. And that humans oribably would not be rebirthed. But if you look at the swarm lord he is living a life of near imortalaty as he can be birthed and rebirthed. Meaning the genstealers point of view can be suported, although it does not fare so well for the cultists.

You can just find a way to justefy a reason why a chaos warband would be a chaos warband. You could also look into cosmic horror. That is horror fiction where the personal feeling of uniqness or importantness have just given up in the face of being insignificant.

If you want more example for ideas like this you can read Nietze, or H.P. Lovecraft. The book 'In the dust of this planet'. For more pop culture references you can see things inspiered by lovecraft. Or TV show like true detective season 1. Rick and Morty, although it is more from the perspective of Morty, as Rick does not faulter in the face of insignification. Rather, he is an Ûber Mench. In Nietches original idea, not the way the Natzies used the word. (Fun fact, the emperor is also a very good example of someone who does not faulter in the face of insignifigens.) You can just have the warband worship the evil as they start going crazy.

Or you could justefy working for the chaos gods as a way of cutting a deal with the devil. Perhaps even to spare a planets population.

Also note that warhammer 40K lore does not really fitt cosmic horror. There are far to many moving elements to give up. Look at the eldar worshiping ynari, they are doing just fine. Dark eldar have cheated death for a long time. In one of the codexes (5th) it say some of them get rebirthed as clones. Aparantly with the same soul.

Also there are some truly weard things going on in 40K. Like the Nightbringer 'Aza'gorod the Nightbringer has impressed its image as that of the grim reaper itself on the psyche of the younger races, apart from the Orks (since they do not fear death). ' That is like how Carl Jung believed in the shared unconsiusness. We know this does not hold a lot of merit in science today. But it might be in the 40K universe as the Nightbringer has imprinted him on all races. (A lot like how the word cricket has imprinted itself in the hitchikers guide books.)

All canon CSM-legions/factions are quite simply, evil. Sure, no one would describe themselves as evil but that's a moot point. In canon, I've yet to read about CSM who wouldn't be utterly selfish and/or needlessly destructive. In canon, they have never done anything that would improve the lives of others... even by accident. Instead, they just go around burning kittens and what not.

However, nothing stops you from collecting your own CSM-faction and writing down fluff where they indeed have some redeeming qualities. Perhaps they are a renegade chapter who fought and killed an inquisitor who was about to unleash an exterminatus to a world, just because one or two heretics lived there? Something like that.

Edit: Heck, and then they hunted and killed the said heretics, delivered their bodies to the inquisition but were still declared as traitors? And then they got disillusioned and started to fight their own wars?

Also note that warhammer 40K lore does not really fitt cosmic horror. There are far to many moving elements to give up. Look at the eldar worshiping ynari, they are doing just fine. Dark eldar have cheated death for a long time. In one of the codexes (5th) it say some of them get rebirthed as clones. Aparantly with the same soul.

I'd say 40k supports cosmic horror just fine. just because SOME people SEEM to be doing alright, doesn't mean they are. you use dark eldar as an example.. they have to literally inflcit torture and suffering or the chaos god EATS THEIR SOUL. seems pretty nasty to me.

40k isn't purely Lovecraftian no, but it certainly has ELEMENTS therein.

Wikipedia describes the elements as.

Anti-anthropocentrism, misanthropy in general. Lovecraft's works tend not to focus on characterization of humans, in line with his view of humanity's insignificant place in the universe, and the general Modernist trend of literature at the time of his writings.

-I suppose this really depends on the setting. over all though I'd say 40k does characterize humans a bit.

Preoccupation with viscerate texture. The horror features of Lovecraft's stories tend to involve protean semi-gelatinous substances, such as slime, as opposed to standard horror elements such as blood, bones, or corpses.

Chaos honestly has BOTH in equal measure

Antiquarian writing style. Even when dealing with up-to-date technology, Lovecraft tended to use anachronisms as well as old-fashioned words when dealing with such things. For example, he used the term "man of science" rather than the modern word, "scientist" and often spelled "show" as "shew" and "lantern" as "lanthorne."

this is very much a hallmark of 40k. the useage of a term such as Apochathry instead of medic etc,

Detachment. Lovecraftian heroes (both in original writings and in more modern adaptations) tend to be socially isolated, reclusive individuals, usually with an academic or scholarly intent to compensate for social shortcomings.

this is hard to pin down given the military character focus of 40k, but I'd argue that if you accept that space marines are the "primary characters" of 40k. this would apply to a degree.

Helplessness and hopelessness. Although Lovecraftian heroes may occasionally deal a "setback" to malignant forces, their victories are temporary, and they usually pay a price for it. Otherwise, subjects often find themselves completely unable to simply run away, instead driven by some other force to their desperate end.

you do see this often in 40k. especially when the subject shifts from space marines to the poor mortals caught up in the conflict.

Unanswered questions. Characters in Lovecraft's stories rarely if ever fully understand what is happening to them, and often go insane if they try.

A COMMON theme of chaos.

Sanity's fragility and vulnerability. Characters in many of Lovecraft's stories are unable to cope mentally with the extraordinary and almost incomprehensible truths they witness, hear or discover. The strain of trying to cope, as Lovecraft often illustrates, is impossible to bear and insanity takes hold.

yet again a common theme.

Questionable parentage. Relatives of characters are typically depicted as paranormal, dysfunctional or abnormal, whereas intimate relations in general are often represented as foreboding, mysterious, and sinister.

wel.. I suppose there are the Primarchs

really when you step back and look at 40k, you do see elements of Lovecraftian horror. more often then not it's not with regards to the primary characters but with minor mortal characters in subplots. for example, the whole fall of Iax subplot in Dark Imperium was VERY Lovecraftian.

 Deadshot wrote:


Any chance of the source image with no text? Have quite a few ideas for this.

Ask and ye shall receive:

Yeah a lot of the comsic horror element are there. But cosmic horror is about staring the abbys in the face and not blink. Or catch a glimps of the abbys and starting resonate that it exist and not blink.

The traitor king fits this quite well.

But the humans has the emperor to fight for. The eperor also presents some fighting plan vs Chaos. The dark eldars, while screwed, keep on fighting the good fight, some of them, like the haemonculy doing excidingly well. The regular eldars have been screwed for a long time, but the retrofitted Ynari presents a good fresh start. The orks don't really mind.

The C'tan fits the bill of cosmic horror, but the necrons have enslaved them redusing the threat somewhat. The nids fits the 'we are insignificant' quite well. The chaos gods also fit this, with many of the marines either not knowing they are daming themselves, or have just given up. I tend to think of 'Doctor Strangelove, or how I learned to stop woreing and love the atomic bomb.' 'Chaos cultist, or how I learned to stop woreing and started worshiping chaos'.

My gripe with why I don't think of warhammer 40K pure cosmic horror is because both the humans and eldar has to much good going for them. But the setting is richer for it.

 Niiai wrote:
Yeah a lot of the comsic horror element are there. But cosmic horror is about staring the abbys in the face and not blink. Or catch a glimps of the abbys and starting resonate that it exist and not blink.

The traitor king fits this quite well.

But the humans has the emperor to fight for. The eperor also presents some fighting plan vs Chaos. The dark eldars, while screwed, keep on fighting the good fight, some of them, like the haemonculy doing excidingly well. The regular eldars have been screwed for a long time, but the retrofitted Ynari presents a good fresh start. The orks don't really mind.

The C'tan fits the bill of cosmic horror, but the necrons have enslaved them redusing the threat somewhat. The nids fits the 'we are insignificant' quite well. The chaos gods also fit this, with many of the marines either not knowing they are daming themselves, or have just given up. I tend to think of 'Doctor Strangelove, or how I learned to stop woreing and love the atomic bomb.' 'Chaos cultist, or how I learned to stop woreing and started worshiping chaos'.

My gripe with why I don't think of warhammer 40K pure cosmic horror is because both the humans and eldar has to much good going for them. But the setting is richer for it.

sure if the IoM and eldar didn't have ANYTHING going for them it'd be a lousy setting for a wargame

Though ideas for a less "eat the orphans alive" CSM warband weren't my intention, it does give me some ideas for my Nurgle CSM army.

And the lore ya'll shared was interesting as well. Gonna have to get the Soul Drinkers and Blood Gorgons series of books.


BTW, I'm not saying stop talking, I'm just saying I appreciate what we've got so far.

 Niiai wrote:

My gripe with why I don't think of warhammer 40K pure cosmic horror is because both the humans and eldar has to much good going for them. But the setting is richer for it.

Heh, yeah. Pure cosmic horror would make a rather boring setting for a wargame.

If the victory of one side is a given, why should you fight battles at all?

I mean, *I* know that the armies of the imperium will triumph in the end and the enemies of the imperium stand no chance but that's a different thing.

Alternative to the 'least evil Chaos' faction, there are many Space Marines that have been labeled as Traitors that aren't necessarily the worst of the bunch. They don't worship Chaos, they just do their own thing.

The rulebook makes mention of the Knights of Blood that answered the Blood Angels' call for help against the Tyranids on Baal. They were excommunicate traitoris, but fought alongside the other BA successor chapters all the same.

No one has mentioned the Soul Drinkers? C'mon now.

Technically, they did the bidding of/worshipped a Greater Deamon of Tzeentch in the guise of the Emperor. They fight for the people of the Imperium, but are wracked with mutation and chaotic influence.

Their chapter master is a HALF-SPIDER monster.

They're practically the poster-child for misunderstood Chaotic Dabblers.

Carnikang wrote:No one has mentioned the Soul Drinkers? C'mon now.

Er...

Mortarion's Herald wrote:Your best bet is going to be something like a renegade Space Marine chapter. Pretty easy to find a way to set up a righteous cause against the Imperium.
[...]
I think the same can be said about CSM Marines, though you'd have to tweak the fluff to make sure it's something doable. I think Soul Drinkers would be a good reference point. A legion declared traitors due to massive mutations, but still fought in the name of the Emperor.

Oggthrok wrote:The soul drinkers seem to be the most benevolent, being a park of chaos addled mutants that didn't realize until way too late that it was t the Emperor blessing them.

MrVulcanator wrote:And the lore ya'll shared was interesting as well. Gonna have to get the Soul Drinkers and Blood Gorgons series of books.

Yeah, I'd say they've come up.

Aw nuts, must have missed those. Ah well, I think they're still a good candidate.

Dark Angels.

The first question to ask is really, what do you mean by "evil?"

In our culture, we understand evil to mean a willingness to hurt others for gain, a rejection of basic norms of human dignity. By those standards, pretty much every faction in 40k is some shade of evil.

In 40k, from the imperial view, "good" is serving the emperor, with "evil" being serving anything else, and "most evil possible" serving chaos.

In the context of the imperium, they are all super evil. From a modern context, they are all murderers and war criminals, as are no shortage of loyalist chapters.

If you mean, which are the least cartoonishly villainous? Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors, both of which retain a certain professionalism and goal driven behavior. All four cult legions are just thoroughly steeped in their god's drives, while the Night Lords were psychopaths prior to falling to chaos. The Black Legion have a wide spectrum, but are pretty hateful and violent. Word Bearers are zealots and true believers, and probably not what you're looking for.

 Polonius wrote:
The first question to ask is really, what do you mean by "evil?"

In our culture, we understand evil to mean a willingness to hurt others for gain, a rejection of basic norms of human dignity. By those standards, pretty much every faction in 40k is some shade of evil.

In 40k, from the imperial view, "good" is serving the emperor, with "evil" being serving anything else, and "most evil possible" serving chaos.

In the context of the imperium, they are all super evil. From a modern context, they are all murderers and war criminals, as are no shortage of loyalist chapters.

If you mean, which are the least cartoonishly villainous? Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors, both of which retain a certain professionalism and goal driven behavior. All four cult legions are just thoroughly steeped in their god's drives, while the Night Lords were psychopaths prior to falling to chaos. The Black Legion have a wide spectrum, but are pretty hateful and violent. Word Bearers are zealots and true believers, and probably not what you're looking for.

This is an important post. Because as said, by modern standards every faction and subfaction are evil murderous warcriminals.

But by 40k perspectives, its different.

According to the Imperium, evil would constitute "NOT attacking, burning, purging, or participate in the extinction of filthy Xenos of any kind, NOT killing heretics or traitors as soon as feasibly possible, or neutrality towards enemies of the Imperium. Heresy, blasphemy or lack of sufficient praising of the Emperor." So that would consitute all non-Imperials and any Imperial who isn't Imperial enough for the liking of the nearest Commissar, Inquisitor or Space Marine to said individual.