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I still think there'd be gun daemons, simply because there has to be an embodiment of the disturbing fantasy that some people have with guns. However, unlike guns wielded by mortals, demonic guns would likely be more Ork in nature; more about the terror of the shot than of the damage it causes. More about the indiscriminate nature of weapons to harm any, rather than just harm enemies. A walking calvcade of explosions as the demon brings smoke and terror wherever it treads.

 takonite wrote:
People who don't want demons with guns obviously haven't played Doom and don't know how awesome that is
Cyberdemon is way cooler than some Khorne scub

Yes but we have daemon engines for that specific reason.

It should be remembered that 40k is, fundamentally, Fantasy in space.

We have armies of starship transported genetically engineered super soldiers in power armor, deployed by orbital drop pods, routinely engaging their foes with...swords.

That Daemons resemble their Fantasy counterparts shouldnt be too big of an issue. That said, im not opposed to adding more shooting stuff to them, but their lack of guns isnt terrible given the rest of the setting.

I'm okay with them not having guns in the conventional sense myself. I like the kinda weird angle of having all these odd shooting attacks which are thrown explosive plague heads or flames they toss/breathe on the enemy. I could see room for more such units though. Daemonettes all armed with lashes, nurgle troops armed with projectile vomit or swarms of flies, or even give them a longer range plague bomb type weapon, khorne armed with conventional low tech weapons and more fire attacks for the minions of change.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

40k has more close combat than would be reasonable in any sci-fi setting

40K isn't sci-fi though. It's fantasy in space.

So? You can still have a majority of ranged weapons.

Daemons do need more ranged weapons though, as them being a largely melee army with very few movement modifiers in older editions was a real hamper for them outside of the few broken builds they had.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Well, some armies are more Sci-fi than others. Space Marines are one of the least sci-fi ones. Specially the more meele focused chapters like Grey Knights, Black Templars or others like Custodes.

In contrast, Tau are the most typical sci-fi one. So, theres really no point in saying " This is the Sci-fi lvl 40k should have" because every army has is own proportion of Fantasy<->Sci-fy.

Taus are in one extreme, and Daemons are in the other. The funny thing is that behind the Tau and the Necrons, Orks by virtue of being full post-apocalyptic, are the third more pure sci-fi army in the setting.

But, after saying that, I think Khorne and Daemonettes should remain meele focused. But for example, Nurgle daemons could have poisoned and vile guns. Tzeentch the same, he doesn't need guns, but his demons could "shoot" fire and magic with basically shooting rules like in the old days.

Space Marines are pretty sci-fi, and the ideal example of what I mean.

They trade plate armor for a power suit, a sword for a automatic gyroget gun, and noble birth for genetic enhancement. They're still knights, but they're sci-fi knights.

Daemons can still be daemons, but they should be sci-fi daemons.

Well, this depend of the chapter, of course. The Raptors are the most sci-fi and modern military of all of the Space Marines.

But in general they are a Fantasy Trope "sci-fied" more than a proper Sci-fi trope. Halo Spartans are proper Sci-fi. Space Marines are 90% like Spartans, but when you change his weapons for a Sword and IA's like Cortana for literally using candles and scrolls to save data and information... you can see the differences.
Yeah, they wear Power Suits that are just a excuse to make a Plate Medieval Armour "viable" in a Sci-fi setting. The same reason why all of their weapons are Power-X. Is just a in-universe excuse to have medieval weapons in a futuristic setting that can kill a tank.

I'd say its Science Fantasy.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
I'd say its Science Fantasy.

Yep, basically:

Conceptually in my opinion fits perfectly the universe and as stated it would make everything look like Doom.
Good thing because 40k and Doom have so much in common.
We have seen "hybrid" daemon engines and they are quite awesome.

The only reasons is better not, are just practical: the models must be compatible with fantasy lines and just create add-ons would betray the concept of most models.
So cool, but only for models exclusive of a ruleset.

I disagree.

Daemons are meant to be nightmares made flesh. The idea that they then break out boltguns (Khorneblasters or whatever) strikes me as stupid.

Then you have things like the Soul Grinder which couples one of the stupidest ideas with the ugliest of models.

Demons should definitely have ranged weapons. Guns? Not necessarily. But more ranged attacks for sure.

The point is that Daemons shouldn't need actual guns to have shooting attacks.

Why can't Bloodletters have a shooting attack that is basically shooting acidic-blood from their blades? For example. If this is a "Daemons need from a gameplay standpoint, more shooting attacks", is pretty easy to do without changing the models or giving them actual guns with amunition and all of that.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

40k has more close combat than would be reasonable in any sci-fi setting

40K isn't sci-fi though. It's fantasy in space.

Very few things are actual sci-fi. Science fiction actually extrapolates what would happen as a result of X or Y technology. This is why most 'sci-fi' shows aren't really sci-fi, because they don't (Star Trek is probably the worst for this) address how new technologies would change the setting.

40K is space opera. Technology is there to get the heroes/armies from A to B, not to make sense or have an effect on society. Space Opera still uses a lot of guns, just ones that shoot lasers or whatever looks/sounds cooler than ordinary bullets.

They appear to need something, whether it be more psychic abilities to smite or summon/re-position or boost melee is fine. Non gun projectiles like acid sprays (tyranids do instead of flamers) or propelled spines, or what have you.

If they could get into melee with the reliability of genestealers or raptors with icon of wrath, maybe ranged isn't necessary. But what about dragons, or airborne units? Should they have to rely of expensive soulgrinders and targetable demon princes?

Shas'O'Ceris wrote:
They appear to need something, whether it be more psychic abilities to smite or summon/re-position or boost melee is fine. Non gun projectiles like acid sprays (tyranids do instead of flamers) or propelled spines, or what have you.

If they could get into melee with the reliability of genestealers or raptors with icon of wrath, maybe ranged isn't necessary. But what about dragons, or airborne units? Should they have to rely of expensive soulgrinders and targetable demon princes?

I would rather see less psychic ranged powers, And more innate ability for units. Be they weapons made manifest though the daemons will or even stranger things.
Could singing that burns the soul, turning the dead into husks that attack or debuff units during there next turn and other particularly daemonic things.

But i am sure even a crossbow could have a rather crazy daemonic effect and feel to it. We already fluff away a lot of things in the game before it goes onto the tabletop, So a crazy daemonnette crossbow could effectively be a nasty shooty weapon with a simple effect.

I'd be on board with certain daemons having ranged weapons - guns or otherwise. Some thoughts:

Skullgatherer - preferred by daemons of Khorne. Rips the skull out of it's opponent so it can be collected for the skull throne.

Sonic Shriek - utilized by daemons of Slaneesh. This cone of discordant sound vibrates the target apart.

Plague Belcher - this flamer-like attack is used by agents of nurgle, literally vomitting deadly toxins onto an enemy

Sorcerous daggers - the primary weapon of Tzeench daemons that fire blasts of homing, solidified daggers of warpstone at the enemy.

Warpblast pistol - In the same way daemons posess corporeal bodies in the real world, a warpblast pistol infuses collected minerals (or bone shards) with warp power and casts them at the enemy at short range. Generally used by lesser daemons.

Warpblast gun - A larger, more potent version of the pistol, with greater range and slightly more powerful hitting power. An unusual side effect of the warpblast gun is that a skilled shooter can cause it to flicker in and out of reality, allowing it to pass through solid objects to strike targets on the far side of cover.

Warpblast cannon - a heavy-duty version of the pistol or gun, employed by the larger and stronger warp entities. This assault weapon has a shotgun-like effect that blasts enemies at close range. Those it does not slay are sometimes momentarily cast into the warp, helpless to act until they are returned a short time later to the battlefield.

Warpblast beamer - similar to the cannon, but this heavy weapon fires a concentrated blast of manifested warp particles that causes the target to be partially transferred back to the warp. Targets not disintegrated by the blast are often displaced to another area of the battlefield.

Warpbomb gun - This assault weapon generates globules of explosive warp force, bouncing across the landscape before detonating. Those that have survived it relate it functions akin to a grenade launcher, though sometimes the grenades can skip far across the battlefield before finally detonating.

Warp Launcher - This heavy weapon fires balls of coruscating warp energy at target units. Those it does not tear apart as it flickers them between the warp and reality are hauled closer to the firer so they can be mauled in hand-to-hand combat.

 Galas wrote:
The point is that Daemons shouldn't need actual guns to have shooting attacks.

Why can't Bloodletters have a shooting attack that is basically shooting acidic-blood from their blades? For example. If this is a "Daemons need from a gameplay standpoint, more shooting attacks", is pretty easy to do without changing the models or giving them actual guns with amunition and all of that.

This, basically just all of this. Why bother with a flamer when your Plaguebearers can just puke farther, or flying bullets when Daemonettes can disable people from sensory overload with a gesture?

This is kind of why I think Daemon Engines are the middle ground; eldritch abominations being bound to mortal inventions (or in the case of soul grinders, actively seeking out our mortal toys).

Very few things are actual sci-fi. Science fiction actually extrapolates what would happen as a result of X or Y technology. This is why most 'sci-fi' shows aren't really sci-fi, because they don't (Star Trek is probably the worst for this) address how new technologies would change the setting.

40K is space opera. Technology is there to get the heroes/armies from A to B, not to make sense or have an effect on society. Space Opera still uses a lot of guns, just ones that shoot lasers or whatever looks/sounds cooler than ordinary bullets.

Sure, which is fine.

There's always going to be a certain level of technology in any setting. 40K has some guns, and I'm cool with that.

I do however feel that guns in general go against the entire vibe that Daemons are trying to put forward. Daemons are supposed to represent our base instinct and fear coming back to haunt us literally in the physical form of our worst nightmares. Guns on the other hand are the great equalizer, and revolutionized our world. Guns are a huge technological breakthrough for humanity that elevates us to a superior species. These are creatures that are literally daemons of our past, of our human nature that we are constantly trying to elevate ourselves from. They are here to drag us back down into the darkness where guns and technology can't save us because at the end of the day humanity can't save itself from who it really is. We are all monsters with daemons living in us.

I know they are not Daemons, but the Tzangoors have guns for 40k, and I think it looks really strange. They look much better with the regular blades, not the gun and chainsword.

Maybe it could be done well, but I quite like that they are so "barbaric" (in lack of a better word). It adds to the variety of all the factions. If they used Daemonic weapons, like a living weapon of sorts, that would be too much like the Tyranids in my opinion.

I like how the bloodletters moved in the Space Marine video game. Something like that could help them get to combat without the help of guns.

Daemonette Archers or Throwing Stars (Seekers too, fething cavalry archers FTW!)

Plaguebearer Slingers (firing something disgusting) or hollowed out thigh bone blow dart guns.

Bloodletter Crossbowmen or Throwing Axes

Horrors are already ok, but I wouldn't mind losing the psychic power for a legitimate magic/lightning style ranged attack

Nurgle Chariot (the only God not to have one, needs to be a combo with a Palanquin) with a mortar or catapult.

Slaaneshi Chariot with a repeating crossbow or ballista.

Others powers have ranged Chariot option already.

There's loads of options that wouldn't break the theme or aesthetic of the army, but GW have been lazy with Daemons for some time, even if the haven't neglected them.

I think daemons with guns/ranged attacks would be amazing idea, but frankly, I don't trust GW to pull it off without going overboard on the corny, skubby cheese factor that they appear to have introduced to their nomenclature as of late. If you thought the new deathguard units had *cough* trademark *cough* names (seriously, just call it a plague sorcerer for feth's sake), can you even imagine what they would come up with for new daemon guns?

Not literally giving every daemon and their mother a bolter either. It could be something simple, like a khorne daemon that can throw fireballs while closing with his axe, tzeentch daemons with reality-bending mind bullets/telekinesis, fat plaguebearers with a variation of typhus' destroyer hive on their back that launches wasp nest projectiles that explode into a cloud of disease-ridden hornets upon impact, or slaaneshi daemons that, IDK, throw X-rated DVDs or something.

Honestly, even giving daemons a stylised medieval catapult wouldn't look too far out of place.

Unfortunately, I think GW can would fall short of the bar I've set in my head.