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In the most bitter thread of today I came across this:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Chaos Daemons.

They're not a translation of a fantasy concept into sci-fi, like most other armies, they're literally a fantasy army in sci-fi. Since daemons can clearly wield weapons, there's no reason they couldn't have daemonic guns to go with their daemonic swords.

I want daemons with guns. Now.

So far I haven't seen a flavourful iteration of 'daemonic guns' bar only the cannon of the Soul Grinder and as we have seen with the skullcannon the chances are high GW can't pull it of right now.

I would be all for diversification of the Daemon army though (Undivided ones pretty pls!).

I like that daemons don't have guns (for the most part) it adds to the fantasy/medieval theme that 40k has.

40k needs less guns and technology and more close combat

To be fair, notgun analogues could also be neat. I would enjoy the option for Bloodthirsters to have Skullsplitter Throwing Axes, or GW bringing back Changebringers (Flamers on Discs), or Slaanesh getting Pavane back...

Daemons don't need guns when they suddenly appear around you, or from within you...

Knowledge of their existence sends most mortals insane, the sight of one can destroy the mind forever.

Sure its not represented in the game because it would be brokenly good.

One daemon does get a gun these days, The Daemon Prince finally remembered he has one.

Imo something like the AoS Skullreapers, only with ranged weapons could work. Some half-daemon/full-daemon dudes with possessed guns which could be used as a Hellblaster-squad/SWS.

Daemons have a small amount of shooting, but they the most melee specialized army in the game. I'm fine with them staying that way. Though I wouldn't mind 5th ed style shooting for tzeentch stuff.

Still waiting on that Corn blood gun

it just shoots blood.

While not the greatest ranged army out there Daemons of Chaos do have a number of ranged attacks, though most aren't guns in the traditional sense, they are still ranged attacks. The list below also does not take into account the number of units that can cast smite, another ranged attack.

Khorne
Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury has an 8" ranged attack
Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster has 2 8" ranged attacks
Skull Cannon has a 36" ranged attack
An'ggrath the Unbound has a 12" ranged attack

Nurgle
Great Unclean on has a 7" ranged attack
Scaneiathrax the Bloated has a 9" ranged attack
Plague Drones have a 12" ranged attack
Plague Toads have a 7" ranged attack
Pox Riders have a 7" ranged attack

Tzeentch
Pink Horrors have an 18" ranged attack
Exalted Flamers have 2 ranged attacks 8" and 18"
Flamers have an 8" ranged attack
Burning Chariot has 2 ranged attack 8" and 18"
Aetaos'rau'keres has a 60" ranged attack

Slaanesh
Exalted Seeker Chariot has a 6" ranged attack
seeker chariot has a 6" ranged attack

Unaligned
Soulgrinder has 2 ranged attack 36" and 48"
Hellflayers have a 6" ranged attack

I'd be happy to see a few more Daemon only Daemon Engines. Maybe something like Plague catapults and Hell Knights (LoW)

Give me daemons that resemble living, whirling gyroscopes of blades, or animate statues of liquid blood, flowing in the shape of a human circulatory system, floating in the air with nothing to support it. Daemons as a whole are exceptionally boring, with the exception of Tzeentch, and the Slaanesh chariot. I want freaky weirdness, not differently colored people with different kinds of swords.

Daemonic guns are perfectly acceptable - boiling blood, swarms of flies, bursts of flames, pain rays, projectile warp rifts, mutagenic bolts of energy, and shards of diseased ironwood are all things I can think of, right off the top of my head.

I want guns either fused to them, or something similar to what we got with Tzaangores.

I don't think they need "actual" guns but the doe need a lot more ranged attacks. It's not even new to the army we've had access to various shooting attacks in the last two codices. Sure you had to roll for it but we did have access to heavy weapons in the form of daemonic gifts. But the index basically stripped that away along with daemonic assault.

Fortunately, they don't need to change or release any new models just new rules. So, here hoping that the new codex redress the problem. Since GW is listening now we can all ways ask them later. Access to power swords for the non-Khorne heralds and unit champions would be nice to have again.

 Sersi wrote:
I don't think they need "actual" guns but the doe need a lot more ranged attacks. It's not even new to the army we've had access to various shooting attacks in the last two codices. Sure you had to roll for it but we did have access to heavy weapons in the form of daemonic gifts. But the index basically stripped that away along with daemonic assault.

Fortunately, they don't need to change or release any new models just new rules. So, here hoping that the new codex redress the problem. Since GW is listening now we can all ways ask them later. Access to power swords for the non-Khorne heralds and unit champions would be nice to have again.

I would be happy if the shooting we had was just more effective. Pink Horrors went from having heavy bolter strength shooting to lasguns. Flamers are still not all that good, and the burning chariots range is abysmal for a fragile vehicle (think its flamer had torrent last edition).

Skull cannons are decent but need more shots. I would love to see some Damon faction titanic daemon engines for all powers.

Well, I seem to have started the conversation inadvertently, so I'll add to it.


Daemons, I think, should have guns. I think their basic units should have gun, or at least gun options. There's no logical reason for the melee-exclusive theme save directly transcribing a fantasy army into a sci-fi setting, since they do use technology and firearms, they just only have it on big things. While other factions are inspired by fantasy, they're adapted into sci-fi. They trade pikes for laser guns, plate armor for power suits, and while the they're still elves and orks in archetype, they're science fiction elves and orks.

Well, some armies are more Sci-fi than others. Space Marines are one of the least sci-fi ones. Specially the more meele focused chapters like Grey Knights, Black Templars or others like Custodes.

In contrast, Tau are the most typical sci-fi one. So, theres really no point in saying " This is the Sci-fi lvl 40k should have" because every army has is own proportion of Fantasy<->Sci-fy.

Taus are in one extreme, and Daemons are in the other. The funny thing is that behind the Tau and the Necrons, Orks by virtue of being full post-apocalyptic, are the third more pure sci-fi army in the setting.

But, after saying that, I think Khorne and Daemonettes should remain meele focused. But for example, Nurgle daemons could have poisoned and vile guns. Tzeentch the same, he doesn't need guns, but his demons could "shoot" fire and magic with basically shooting rules like in the old days.

 Galas wrote:
Well, some armies are more Sci-fi than others. Space Marines are one of the least sci-fi ones. Specially the more meele focused chapters like Grey Knights, Black Templars or others like Custodes.

In contrast, Tau are the most typical sci-fi one. So, theres really no point in saying " This is the Sci-fi lvl 40k should have" because every army has is own proportion of Fantasy<->Sci-fy.

Taus are in one extreme, and Daemons are in the other. The funny thing is that behind the Tau and the Necrons, Orks by virtue of being full post-apocalyptic, are the third more pure sci-fi army in the setting.

But, after saying that, I think Khorne and Daemonettes should remain meele focused. But for example, Nurgle daemons could have poisoned and vile guns. Tzeentch the same, he doesn't need guns, but his demons could "shoot" fire and magic with basically shooting rules like in the old days.

Space Marines are pretty sci-fi, and the ideal example of what I mean.

They trade plate armor for a power suit, a sword for a automatic gyroget gun, and noble birth for genetic enhancement. They're still knights, but they're sci-fi knights.

Daemons can still be daemons, but they should be sci-fi daemons.

As with all things in 40k, I think trying to balance the fanasy:sci fi ratio is pretty silly. It's a universe where technology has allowed genetically modified supermen, walking fortifications, and multiple-mile-long space cathedra, but where weapon ranges of ultra-sophisticated railguns are shorter than 13th century longbows.

I think it's even sillier to try and sci-fi-icise daemons. I've always concieved of them as Lovecraftian abominations operation on a logical and moral compass totally beyond the comprehension of real-world (as opposed to Warp, not actually real life!) lifeforms who'd have little interest in the types of technology they employ. Why bother when your very existence can render planet sized populations catatonic with terror and you have magic (or absurdly giant axes and swords) coming our your ears?

You could do a lot with daemonic ranged weapons, Even if they want to put them all in fantasy.
Daemons should be all about coming up with ways to do damage at greater distances, A Daemon taking inspiration from a crossbow could be all sorts of painful. They have swords, so they should have all kinds of nightmare fuel ranged weapons as well.

A daemon wielding a smaller daemon that's been shaped in to a plasma-spitting (literally!) skull on a stick would be kinda cool.

Functions as a power maul in melee and a 12" two-shot plasma pistol at range.

Daemon ranged weapons should look like 80s heavy metal album covers.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I like that daemons don't have guns (for the most part) it adds to the fantasy/medieval theme that 40k has.

40k needs less guns and technology and more close combat

40k has more close combat than would be reasonable in any sci-fi setting. I'm not against melee combat in the game (at all!), but intelligent species are going to use ranged weapons unless they're completely homicidal. Now, 40k has plenty of completely homicidal forces, so that's okay. 40k is basically a game of WW1 combat where bayonet charges are somehow still a viable option.

That said, 40k would be very strange with less shooting. When you've got space ships and power armor, things like guns are peanuts in comparison, technology wise. You need a VERY good macguffin to cover why guns aren't used, like the force field shields from Frank Herbert's Dune (which forced close combat with slow knives).

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Well, some armies are more Sci-fi than others. Space Marines are one of the least sci-fi ones. Specially the more meele focused chapters like Grey Knights, Black Templars or others like Custodes.

In contrast, Tau are the most typical sci-fi one. So, theres really no point in saying " This is the Sci-fi lvl 40k should have" because every army has is own proportion of Fantasy<->Sci-fy.

Taus are in one extreme, and Daemons are in the other. The funny thing is that behind the Tau and the Necrons, Orks by virtue of being full post-apocalyptic, are the third more pure sci-fi army in the setting.

But, after saying that, I think Khorne and Daemonettes should remain meele focused. But for example, Nurgle daemons could have poisoned and vile guns. Tzeentch the same, he doesn't need guns, but his demons could "shoot" fire and magic with basically shooting rules like in the old days.

Space Marines are pretty sci-fi, and the ideal example of what I mean.

They trade plate armor for a power suit, a sword for a automatic gyroget gun, and noble birth for genetic enhancement. They're still knights, but they're sci-fi knights.

Daemons can still be daemons, but they should be sci-fi daemons.

I actually like that the daemons are not sci-fi. The idea that a galactic empire, with all its science and technology is threatened by a force that is so primal has a philosophical resonance to it. Venture to the farthest reaches of the galaxy yet the enemy shows up looking like the devil with an axe. I think its great.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Well, some armies are more Sci-fi than others. Space Marines are one of the least sci-fi ones. Specially the more meele focused chapters like Grey Knights, Black Templars or others like Custodes.

In contrast, Tau are the most typical sci-fi one. So, theres really no point in saying " This is the Sci-fi lvl 40k should have" because every army has is own proportion of Fantasy<->Sci-fy.

Taus are in one extreme, and Daemons are in the other. The funny thing is that behind the Tau and the Necrons, Orks by virtue of being full post-apocalyptic, are the third more pure sci-fi army in the setting.

But, after saying that, I think Khorne and Daemonettes should remain meele focused. But for example, Nurgle daemons could have poisoned and vile guns. Tzeentch the same, he doesn't need guns, but his demons could "shoot" fire and magic with basically shooting rules like in the old days.

Space Marines are pretty sci-fi, and the ideal example of what I mean.

They trade plate armor for a power suit, a sword for a automatic gyroget gun, and noble birth for genetic enhancement. They're still knights, but they're sci-fi knights.

Daemons can still be daemons, but they should be sci-fi daemons.

I actually like that the daemons are not sci-fi. The idea that a galactic empire, with all its science and technology is threatened by a force that is so primal has a philosophical resonance to it. Venture to the farthest reaches of the galaxy yet the enemy shows up looking like the devil with an axe. I think its great.

why would a primal Daemon have an axe ? It does not really make sense in fantasy why daemons would not have ranged weapons. when you have daemonic forges that can bend reality, they should be coming up with all kinds of things.
I think it is kind of disappointing how little GW Uses daemonic influence in the game for Ramping it up.

I don't really see the "cosmic horror" of 40k. We know exactly what each chaos god wants, we even know that Tzeentch wants to reclaim his former power.

And we know about all of the daemons, at least the ones affiliated with a particular god, and we know about furies, and the soul forge.

Humanity isn't exactly small in this either, there's billions, if not trillions, enough to die en masse in the Imperial Guard, without it affecting humanities overall population in a meaningful way.

In the first edition of the Chaos Daemons codex (that is, the one made for 4th edition) Tzeentch Daemons had ranged weapons. They weren't guns, but simply because at the time Tzeentch Daemons were exempt from psychic tests and thus their psychic abilities were more or less ranged weapons, activated buffs and passive abilities.

As for why Daemons don't use actual guns, I think it's because Daemons are inherently unnatural. Projectile weapons are mechanical creations done by rational minds. Daemons, on the other hand, are the embodiment of emotions, their physical form is only seen as such because that's how our minds comprehend them. They are a literal metaphor. I thinka GW designer put it best when he described the stories about stuff like the "Garden of Nurgle"; it's described in a romanticized way as some kind of putrid garden, but the reality is that the realm of nurgle is so incomprehensible that the only way to describe it is to relate to some human concept in a fairy tale way. Tzeentch breaking his staff and it turning into spells is another such metaphor; Tzeentch's staff didn't actually shatter and the physical pieces became spells and lore, but when a portion of the power that is tzeentch was overwhelmed by the other chaos gods, it scattered to the eight winds and became the very concept of spells and sorcery.

That said, guns seem almost redundant for daemons. Why bother using a complex mechanism to propel a piece of metal into your opponent when you can just rip reality itself and turn his organs into warpfire. As it is, it seems the Gods and Daemons themselves are much more concerned with their natures than any sort of efficiency; I would think that if Tzeentch really wanted to go on a murderspree, his daemons would not be wielding guns of any kind, but simply going around turning everything into chaos spawns. Khorne Daemons only use melee weapons because they want to take heads and Nurgle's daemons killing others is a byproduct of him spreading disease and rot.

Do you mean guns or shooting attacks?

Guns make me giggle, because the idea of a demon firing shards of itself at people makes me smile. Unless that's not what the gun does, and the gun actually uses ammunition, in which case I'm laughing at all the desk-jockey Khorne Bloodletters who have to oversee logistics to make sure that sufficient ammunition reaches the front. The image of a Bloodletter unit herald complaining to another Bloodletter that their guns are out of ammo, and then the desk-jockey bloodletter looking exhasperatedly over his glasses and saying "There's just not enough to go around." in a chiding tone makes me laugh even harder.

In 6th Edition, all Nurgle Daemons had Defensive Grenades. One FAQ question for 7th then asked if this meant Nurglings could throw Defensive Grenades hoping to Blind their foes, to which GW said yes, but it was best not to imagine what was actually being thrown!

People who don't want demons with guns obviously haven't played Doom and don't know how awesome that is
Cyberdemon is way cooler than some Khorne scub

40k has more close combat than would be reasonable in any sci-fi setting

40K isn't sci-fi though. It's fantasy in space.