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Even if a Stratagem is considered identical to a rule or ability, so too would a psychic power. Both are used by non-Death Guard entities and may TARGET a Death Guard unit according to the restrictions they list. The restrictions listed for Stratagems are the targets of the effect, not the users of the Stratagem. The user is the player.

It's well and good to claim that Death Guard may not use abilities from the codex. It's extremely different to claim that Death Guard may not be affected by abilities from the codex.

Claiming they are unaffected makes all Death Guard units immune to the following:
- Alpha Legion's -1 to hit Legion Trait
- Infernal Gaze, Gift of Chaos, and Death Hex psychic attacks
- Warptime, Diabolic Strength, and Prescience psychic buffs
- Warlord traits that affect an enemy, like Lord of Terror and Flames of Spite
- Relics that have an additional effect on an enemy or ally unit

 Arkaine wrote:
Even if a Stratagem is considered identical to a rule or ability, so too would a psychic power. Both are used by non-Death Guard entities and may TARGET a Death Guard unit according to the restrictions they list. The restrictions listed for Stratagems are the targets of the effect, not the users of the Stratagem. The user is the player.

But a Stratagem clearly is not a rule or ability. The BRB says a Stratagem is a tactical or strategic asset. If anything, it is a purchased alteration to the mechanics of the game.

The passage in the Lost and the Damned section prohibits factions other than Chaos Space Marines from making use of the rules and abilities outlined in that section. Consistent with that restriction, there is nothing stopping a player from applying a Stratagem to any unit in an army, since a Stratagem is not a rule or ability. The only restrictions exist in the Stratagems themselves.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
Even if a Stratagem is considered identical to a rule or ability, so too would a psychic power. Both are used by non-Death Guard entities and may TARGET a Death Guard unit according to the restrictions they list. The restrictions listed for Stratagems are the targets of the effect, not the users of the Stratagem. The user is the player.

But a Stratagem clearly is not a rule or ability. The BRB says a Stratagem is a tactical or strategic asset. If anything, it is a purchased alteration to the mechanics of the game.

The passage in the Lost and the Damned section prohibits factions other than Chaos Space Marines from making use of the rules and abilities outlined in that section. Consistent with that restriction, there is nothing stopping a player from applying a Stratagem to any unit in an army, since a Stratagem is not a rule or ability. The only restrictions exist in the Stratagem itself.

What I'm saying is it doesn't matter either way. It's consistent in either interpretation that there is nothing stopping a player from applying a Stratagem to a valid target in his army. Just as there is nothing stopping a player from applying a psychic attack to a valid target in the enemy's army.

 Arkaine wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
Even if a Stratagem is considered identical to a rule or ability, so too would a psychic power. Both are used by non-Death Guard entities and may TARGET a Death Guard unit according to the restrictions they list. The restrictions listed for Stratagems are the targets of the effect, not the users of the Stratagem. The user is the player.

But a Stratagem clearly is not a rule or ability. The BRB says a Stratagem is a tactical or strategic asset. If anything, it is a purchased alteration to the mechanics of the game.

The passage in the Lost and the Damned section prohibits factions other than Chaos Space Marines from making use of the rules and abilities outlined in that section. Consistent with that restriction, there is nothing stopping a player from applying a Stratagem to any unit in an army, since a Stratagem is not a rule or ability. The only restrictions exist in the Stratagem itself.

What I'm saying is it doesn't matter either way. It's consistent in either interpretation that there is nothing stopping a player from applying a Stratagem to a valid target in his army. Just as there is nothing stopping a player from applying a psychic attack to a valid target in the enemy's army.

Sure, I get your point. But I think it's time to move past scenarios tho and just cite rules.

It's clear many people have locked into a single sentence from the Codex and taken that to mean things that it doesn't. I do not see why we should entertain the idea that Stratagems are rules / abilities specific to a faction when the BRB clearly assigns them a broader significance to an army.

Saying this because the other argument does not cite anything except that single sentence. Opponents to this idea are not actually taking the time to read what a Stratagem is per the rulebook, how a player accesses Stratagems, how a Stratagem is applied, what Keywords actually mean, etc. Feels like we're feeding trolls.

If a stratagem is not a rule or ability then where are the rules for how chaos familiar works.

Seriously you guys have no actual basis for the argument.

Saying you can use the Strategems because they are not rules or abilities so it ignores that death Guard cannot use any rules or abilities in the section is ridiculous.

Looks like an ambiguous rule to me.

I would play that it works on death guard. In my mind being effected by a stratagem used by the player seems very different from a unit "using" it. I don't think it is fair to call that rules lawyer-ing. There is plenty of weird rules-stretching on Daka, but I really don't think this is one of them.

There probably are (and certainly could be) stratagems that effect enemies, it would clearly be wrong to say the enemy are "using" your stratagems in these cases.

Stratagems effecting enemies is a more tricky problem . IMO shouldn't be allowed, as the common verbage is they are made use of by friendly units.
There are no aggressive stratagems (that I know of) but some, like tide of Traitors , could be used aggressively.

Tyranids can't make use of the rules or abilities listed in the same section, and no one seems to have an issue figuring out how that works or makes nonsense statements that they can't be effected by rules or abilities in that section.

Chaos familiar has rules, if you make use of those rules for a death guard unit you are in conflict with the rules as written.

blaktoof wrote:
If a stratagem is not a rule or ability then where are the rules for how chaos familiar works.

Seriously you guys have no actual basis for the argument.

Saying you can use the Strategems because they are not rules or abilities so it ignores that death Guard cannot use any rules or abilities in the section is ridiculous.

For starters, I wasn't the one who made a claim that stratagems aren't rules so I'd care for you not to lump me in with those arguments. Secondly, I listed my basis and proved it with actual rule cititations while you have never cited rules that dictate what you believe to be true. Likewise, you repeatedly sidestep and avoid answering any of the direct questions made against your claims or contradicting any of the claims regarding targets and users being different with any hard evidence.

You have no actual basis for your argument. You just keep repeating a single line and disregarding all the counter evidence presented against it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:
Chaos familiar has rules, if you make use of those rules for a death guard unit you are in conflict with the rules as written.

This has been disproven multiple times. The Death Guard are not using the rules, the player is using the rules and targeting the Death Guard with their effect, exactly as how a psychic power functions.

Claiming Death Guard cannot be affected by stratagems is the same as claiming they are immune to the Chaos psychic powers. Along with several other "rules" in the Lost and the Damned section.

P.3 of heretic astartes lists the sections of the book. Notably the last section is titled " THE LOST AND THE DAMNED"

From p.3 "This section provides additional rules, including warlord traits, Strategems, relics and psychic powers, as well as matched play points costs for every entry"

So Strategems are rules, so are psychic powers.

Further p.156 " Note that Death Guard and Thosuand Sons Legions deviate significantly in terms of organisation and therefore cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section.."

Again the section is The Lost And The Damned. Per p.3 that section is made up of additional rules including Strategems and psychic powers. In writing those are both rules(Strategems and psychic powers)

I've already agreed that the player uses Strategems.

Further if a player uses a strategem (chaos familiar) and targets a malginant plague caster(deathguard) to swap a psychic power they have broken the raw as they are trying to make use of a rule in that section for a death guard unit. Unless somehow the deathguard unit is not swapping powers to make use of the rule?

Further RAW even if you could swap powers, the rule on p.156, and p.3 telling us that psychic powers are indeed additional rules(aka rules), the result would be any power swapped for the death guard unit would never be able to make use of. So if you swapped for say warp time, which you are not allowed to by the rules as written, the death guard unit could then never actually use the power as the power is a rule in that section that it cannot make use of. The end result is the psyker lost a power and gained something it cannot make use of.

The argument that they cannot use the rules in that section therefore they are immune has no merit. Tyranids cannot make use of chaos familiar, or death hex. They certainly have no rules saying they cannot be used against them.

blaktoof wrote:
P.3 of heretic astartes lists the sections of the book. Notably the last section is titled " THE LOST AND THE DAMNED"

From p.3 "This section provides additional rules, including warlord traits, Strategems, relics and psychic powers, as well as matched play points costs for every entry"

So Strategems are rules, so are psychic powers.

Further p.156 " Note that Death Guard and Thosuand Sons Legions deviate significantly in terms of organisation and therefore cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section.."

Again the section is The Lost And The Damned. Per p.3 that section is made up of additional rules including Strategems and psychic powers. In writing those are both rules(Strategems and psychic powers)

So you're just quoting the exact same thing you've said already which was already responded to. No one is disagreeing that Death Guard cannot use rules in the codex, they are disagreeing that those rules are being used by Death Guard.

blaktoof wrote:
I've already agreed that the player uses Strategems.

Further if a player uses a strategem (chaos familiar) and targets a malginant plague caster(deathguard) to swap a psychic power they have broken the raw as they are trying to make use of a rule in that section for a death guard unit. Unless somehow the deathguard unit is not swapping powers to make use of the rule?

Further RAW even if you could swap powers, the rule on p.156, and p.3 telling us that psychic powers are indeed additional rules(aka rules), the result would be any power swapped for the death guard unit would never be able to make use of. So if you swapped for say warp time, which you are not allowed to by the rules as written, the death guard unit could then never actually use the power as the power is a rule in that section that it cannot make use of. The end result is the psyker lost a power and gained something it cannot make use of.

You said it yourself, the player is the one making use of the rule. The Death Guard are merely being affected by its effect and resolution, identical to a psychic power. If they swap powers because an effect tells them to, that's in accordance with the rules. If they lose wounds because a gun tells them to, that too follows the rules. It does not mean the Death Guard is "making use of" the gun simply because it's obeying the result of the gun's effect. See below why this is preposterous to think.

blaktoof wrote:
The argument that they cannot use the rules in that section therefore they are immune has no merit. Tyranids cannot make use of chaos familiar, or death hex. They certainly have no rules saying they cannot be used against them.

Yet now you are contradicting yourself. A psychic power is a targeted ability that creates an effect on a unit after the psyker uses the power. You are claiming now that Death Guard can have psychic powers used against them. If that happens, they have broken the raw as they are trying to abide by the text of the psychic power, whatever it may be, or the Warlord Trait, or Legion Trait, or any effect that is being used against them. Stratagems are identical to psychic powers, a targeted ability that creates an effect on a unit after the player uses the stratagem. You cannot claim that Death Guard can have psychic powers used against them yet not have Stratagems used against them. Because that is what happens when the player selects a valid target for his stratagem in accordance with the limitations specified in the stratagem itself. He is choosing a victim of the stratagem's effects, whatever they may be.

You seem to be completely unaware of the fact that you are cherry picking what may and may not count from the Lost and the Damned section, and what Death Guard may and may not be affected by, with no rules backing to make the distinction -- which I repeatedly have requested, not the rules pages that contain the statements you've been making repeatedly that NO ONE HAS REFUTED. The statements are true, I don't need to refute them. I am against your application of them due to it being logically invalid, sometimes functioning and sometimes not functioning with no basis for when it should or should not, not a single rule citation from you differentiating why Death Guard are immune to stratagems yet not immune to psychic powers when they both are used by other entities and target the Death Guard with their effects. Nothing more.

As you keep going in circles and refuse to address the elephant in the room, confronting the matter that has been repeatedly explained as the crux of the issue centering your own contradictions, instead favoring an interpretation that is 100% subjective and your own conjecture, I don't think there's anything more that can be said on the subject until you choose to address these issues.

I realize you personally want to benefit from this bit of rules lawyering so let's imagine that the death guard unit swapping a psychic power via the chaos familiar strategem is a valid use of the strategem and totally allowed for arguments sake as you won't let that go.

Now you have a death guard unit with a psychic power from dark hereticus discipline, contained within the lost and the damned section of additional rules for the heretic astartes codex.

Per p.3 as quoted above dark hereticus is a psychic power, per p.3 it is a rule.

Per p.156 Death Guard cannot make use of any rules or abilities in that section. Again the dark hereticus psychic powers are rules in that section.

The power you had the unit swap, the unit cannot use.

So even pretending you can use the strategem still results in the death guard unit not being able to use the psychic power(rule) you swapped for.

blaktoof wrote:
I realize you personally want to benefit from this bit of rules lawyering so let's imagine that the death guard unit swapping a psychic power via the chaos familiar strategem is a valid use of the strategem and totally allowed for arguments sake as you won't let that go.

No, I don't wish to benefit from any bit rules or lawyering. I play Thousand Sons. I have never, will never, pick up Nurgle troops or factions. Tzeentch's greatest enemy is Nurgle.

How mighty must you believe yourself to think that I need to convince you of all people to allow something in my meta? I am here purely for the intellectual debate and discussion, for the enlightenment of all and the pursuit of Rightness. This is an exercise in higher learning, not a beer and pretzels pissing contest.

blaktoof wrote:
Now you have a death guard unit with a psychic power from dark hereticus discipline, contained within the lost and the damned section of additional rules for the heretic astartes codex.
Per p.3 as quoted above dark hereticus is a psychic power, per p.3 it is a rule.
Per p.156 Death Guard cannot make use of any rules or abilities in that section. Again the dark hereticus psychic powers are rules in that section.
The power you had the unit swap, the unit cannot use.
So even pretending you can use the strategem still results in the death guard unit not being able to use the psychic power(rule) you swapped for.

Which, following your own logic train, renders Death Guard immune to psychic powers from the Dark Hereticus as well. Thank you, you've confirmed that you are willing to adhere to nonsensical outcomes simply to hold true to your predisposition.

Lol.

Following your logic no faction can hurt a different faction because if they are not allowed to use a rule(psychic power, strategem, wargear, relic, weapon) therefore they cannot be affected.

Finally peace has come to the grimdark.

Player A. " Even though the rules say this unit cannot use this, they can because logically if they can't use it they can't be effected by it which doesn't make sense so breaking the RAW for part of the interpretation that I like makes sense"

Player B. " So because it has to be able to affect you you have permission to use it"

Player A. " Finally stopped cherry picking and understand"

Player B. " My hive tyrant has four quad heavy bolters because tyranids can't use them. Therefore they cannot be affected by them. That makes no RAW sense so therefore in order to be affected by them they can use them"

Player A " You are a troll and I won't play you"

Player B " Fine"

Models " finally we don't have to fight...."

blaktoof wrote:
Lol.

Following your logic no faction can hurt a different faction because if they are not allowed to use a rule(psychic power, strategem, wargear, relic, weapon) therefore they cannot be affected.

Finally peace has come to the grimdark.

No, that's following YOUR logic.

My logic would never come down to that because Death Guard can be affected by psychic powers and stratagems.

Remember, you're the one arguing that they are unaffected by rules from the Lost and the Damned section.

I'm simply making you adhere to your own belief.

Saying they cannot use a psychic power(a rule from that section) is not the same as saying they can't be affected, you are making that crazy leap not me.

blaktoof wrote:
Saying they cannot use a psychic power(a rule from that section) is not the same as saying they can't be affected, you are making that crazy leap not me.

No, I don't think I am. After all...

You claimed that the fact they cannot use a stratagem (a rule from the section) is the same as saying they can't be affected by one. You made that leap all on your own.

 Arkaine wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Saying they cannot use a psychic power(a rule from that section) is not the same as saying they can't be affected, you are making that crazy leap not me.

No, I don't think I am. After all...

You claimed that the fact they cannot use a stratagem (a rule from the section) is the same as saying they can't be affected by one. You made that leap all on your own.

Seriously I'm done talking with you. Anyone can read the thread and see the various discussions points and come to a conclusion.

Have fun playing 40k, painting, converting etc to you.

blaktoof wrote:
Please quote where I said that.

Almost every one of your statements so far, actually. Let's just pick the first one and start there.

blaktoof wrote:
Note that the Death Guard and Thousand Sons Legions deviate significantly in terms of organisation and therefore cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section; instead they have bespoke rules and abilities detailed in their own codexes p.156 Codex Heretic Astartes.

The section in question is "The Lost and the Damned" according to the table of contents it spans pages 156 to 168. Including strategems. If you are applying Chaos Familiar to a death guard unit then the Death Guard unit is "making use of the abilities listed" which is in conflict with the RAW.

So RAW answer to this OP, is no.

Apparently despite the fact that you acknowledged later that a Player is the one using a Stratagem, you still cannot accept that Death Guard can be affected by it.

Today, I had a conversation with someone about this topic. Recapping some take aways from the talk, which may serve to simplify this discussion.

Stratagems are a rules altering mechanic of the game, controlled by the player in charge of the army. Each time a Stratagem is applied, it changes some rule that exists in the BRB.

For example, CSMs have a Stratagem called Endless Cacophony. It allows units with the Heretic Astartes and Slaanesh and Infantry or Biker keywords to shoot twice in the shooting phase.

This changes the rules around shooting. You can look it up in the BRB, on p 179. To summarize, you pick a unit with ranged weapons, you shoot with it, then you pick another unit to shoot with until all eligible units have been exhausted.

Stratagems are new for 8th edition, and it's understandable to think we are all getting used to what they are. If you are not on board with the idea that they represent different from a rule, I can accept that. But I ask you to accept a few things that go along with this interpretation.

1) The BRB contains no language that suggests a Stratagem can only be applied to the same faction in the game. We read though the language together. The BRB only discusses Stratagems in the context of Battle-forged armies, which are constructed based on keywords.

2) GW never calls a Stratagem a rule. The BRB uses the phrase tactical and strategic assets. I am not sure how asset equates to a rule, it bothers me the same way I would not be comfortable calling a Plasma Gun a rule. There are rules for Plasma Guns, but a Plasma Gun is a thing within an army (i.e. an asset.)

3) GW emphasizes Stratagems are a result of balance and a mix of unit types in Battle-forged armies. The original post on the community site discusses them this way: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/14/new-warhammer-40000-stratagems-may14gw-homepage-post-4/

"Battle-forged armies earn Command Points based on how efficient they are likely to be at the logistics of war. Armies with a balanced mix of unit types and plenty of troops will tend to have more to play with, and every army that is Battle-forged gets 3 Command Points to start with."

This gets into the RAI argument. Even if you want to argue the passage about the Lost and the Damned prevents a Death Guard unit from ever taking a Dark Hereticus Psychic power, you have to accept the idea that this rule could be altered by Stratagem. The CSM Codex has Stratagems that alter rules in every phase of the game.

It's really a matter of what a Stratagem can be applied to. I believe, and all of the language in the Codex seems to suggest, the only limit on how a Stratagem can be applied is based on a rule contained in the Stratagem itself. The LatD language really only means you can't take Stratagems from the CSM Codex, not that they cannot be applied to units from these factions.

From the Death Guard FAQ:

Q: Is it possible to use a Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Space Marines to target a unit from Codex: Death Guard? For example, can I use the Tide of Traitors Stratagem on a unit of Cultists from a Death Guard Detachment if I have an Alpha Legion Detachment and a Death Guard Detachment in a single Battle-forged army?

A: Yes – if you have access to a Stratagem because you have an appropriate Detachment, it can be used on any permitted target: they do not need to be from that Detachment. In your example, the Alpha Legion Detachment gives access to the Chaos Space Marine Stratagems, and Tide of Traitors can be used on any Chaos Cultists – this would include any Chaos Cultists from the Death Guard Detachment.

Very useful.

Not sure the original question is solved by this, as DG are still forbidden from using the Dark heretics discipline.

Ah who even cares

Stratagems alter the mechanics of the game. Why would this mechanic be so special it can't be altered by a stratagem?

EDIT: Disregard me. Slow to join the party with my reply.

With the new FAQ it looks like if you are willing to pay 1 CP you can get warptime on any of your psychics. This does save me from having shenanigans to find a way to put a Nurgle sorcerer in my list.

After seeing the new AM codex cheese, I won’t even remotely feel bad about this.

Also no fix on the DG Palanquin Sorceror from the index, so technically it's still on Index Dark Hereticus.

 techsoldaten wrote:
From the Death Guard FAQ:

Q: Is it possible to use a Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Space Marines to target a unit from Codex: Death Guard? For example, can I use the Tide of Traitors Stratagem on a unit of Cultists from a Death Guard Detachment if I have an Alpha Legion Detachment and a Death Guard Detachment in a single Battle-forged army?

A: Yes – if you have access to a Stratagem because you have an appropriate Detachment, it can be used on any permitted target: they do not need to be from that Detachment. In your example, the Alpha Legion Detachment gives access to the Chaos Space Marine Stratagems, and Tide of Traitors can be used on any Chaos Cultists – this would include any Chaos Cultists from the Death Guard Detachment.

This saves countless headaches for finally being confirmed. It was already how the rules were written but at least now there is no arguing the point. Wonder what shenanigans people will come up with using a CSM detachment + a Death Guard detachment.

 Arkaine wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
From the Death Guard FAQ:

Q: Is it possible to use a Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Space Marines to target a unit from Codex: Death Guard? For example, can I use the Tide of Traitors Stratagem on a unit of Cultists from a Death Guard Detachment if I have an Alpha Legion Detachment and a Death Guard Detachment in a single Battle-forged army?

A: Yes – if you have access to a Stratagem because you have an appropriate Detachment, it can be used on any permitted target: they do not need to be from that Detachment. In your example, the Alpha Legion Detachment gives access to the Chaos Space Marine Stratagems, and Tide of Traitors can be used on any Chaos Cultists – this would include any Chaos Cultists from the Death Guard Detachment.

This saves countless headaches for finally being confirmed. It was already how the rules were written but at least now there is no arguing the point. Wonder what shenanigans people will come up with using a CSM detachment + a Death Guard detachment.

Although it is an official answer It was not now the rules were written at all in any way anywhere in the codex.

And it still leaves the rules as written situation that explicitly death guard cannot make use of any dark hereticus powers they would gain.

blaktoof wrote:
Although it is an official answer It was not now the rules were written at all in any way anywhere in the codex.

And it still leaves the rules as written situation that explicitly death guard cannot make use of any dark hereticus powers they would gain.

That is false because the FAQ is only that, an FAQ, not an errata. It did not change any rules, only clarified how the rules interact. Some people, like this thread shows, already understood how it worked and others now see how it's supposed to work. Nothing changed though.

GW changes rules in the FAQs, and uses the FAQs as errata multiple times through the both the GW FAQs and the FW FAQ.

In some cases they give errata answers in the Warhammer community fluff section that links to the actual FAQ/errata which doesn't contain said FAQ/errata (see thousand sons access to dark hereticus for example)

The codex clearly states that death guard cannot make use of the rules in that section of the codex, which includes Strategems. GW may have put it in the section for fAqs because it was a rules issue brought to them(their idea of a FAq) versus an interaction they thought of changing(their idea of errata).

Regardless in the case of this topic it still leaves the RAW statement that deathguard cannot use any of the rules in that section- as there was no actual change to any rules text, so although the FAQ allows the strategem the RAW still means the model cannot cast the power it swapped for as it cannot make use of the dark hereticus rules.