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So, Death Guard do not get access to the Dark Heretics discipline, meaning no warptime. All of their psykers, however, have the Heretic Astartes keyword, and the Psyker Keyword.

The CSM Chaos Familiar stratagem allows psykers with the Heretic Astartes and Psyker keywords to replace one psychic power with one from the Dark Heretics discipline.

Were I to take a combined force of Death Guard and CSMs, would I be able to use the Chaos Familiar stratagem on a Death Guard psyker?

In Codex: CSM, on p. 156, it says: "Note that the Death Guard and Thousand Sons Legions deviate significantly in terms of organization and therefore cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section."

While I recognize DG and TS are going to have their own stratagems, does this passage mean they cannot be the target of a stratagem for another detachment in the army? It seems to me they can be the target, so long as they have the appropriate keywords.

That passage has nothing to do with them because they aren't the ones using the stratagem. You are. Your army can be composed of mixed detachments and the stratagems do not simply apply to the ones that qualify as from that codex. If they did then all the auras that affect Imperium couldn't buff Imperial Guard or Ad Mech either and stratagems that target Imperium forces would be defunct outside your own detachment. Plus some events give you bonus stratagems to use irrespective of any detachment qualifiers.

So RAW yes you can swap powers with a Dark Hereticus one for 1 CP. The little allied chaos familiar comes over with his magic book and teaches the Death Guard psyker how to cast Warptime.

Disagree.

"Death Guard....cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section" is pretty clear to me. All the stratagems are worded as "you" using them - I don't believe that is ennough to justify DG units benefitting from a rule that it explicitly says they cannot make use of.

JoshTheStampede wrote:
Disagree.

"Death Guard....cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section" is pretty clear to me. All the stratagems are worded as "you" using them - I don't believe that is ennough to justify DG units benefitting from a rule that it explicitly says they cannot make use of.

By your logic, I can't target the Death Guard units with psyker powers from the Chaos Codex. "You" are not Chaos Space Marines. "You" are not Death Guard. "You" can be Daemons, Death Guard, Chaos Space Marines, and Renegades at the same time.

The reason this distinction is supported is because Alpha Legion stratagem Forward Operatives doesn't say any Heretic Astartes infantry can use the rule. It specifies Alpha Legion only even though that should be implied under your interpretation.

Even if you handwaves somehow that this all goes away, look at Space Marines. Apparently Dark Angels and similar crews are incapable of receiving any benefit from their loyalist psykers yet other Imperium factions with astartes totally can. Does that make sense?

Or what if you're going up AGAINST Death Guard? Do your stratagems and psychic powers that target the enemy suddenly not work? They aren't allowed to make use of any abilities in this section. Clearly the psyker is targeting them and the power's rules are being applied to them, so they are definitely making use of whatever rules it states.

Seems pretty clear that if Death Guard can't make use of a Stratagem you can't use it on their units.

That *isn't* the same as targeting them with relevant Psychic buffs, partly because bespoke rules, and partly because a different section of the rules. Totally separate convo, Arkaine.

It's not a separate section, it's in the same section as that rule, snug between the Stratagems and the Artefacts/Warlord Traits.

Also, Death Guard weren't granted the same alleviance that Thousand Sons were to make use of Dark Hereticus.

So neither section nor rules support buffing Death Guard. The only thing that might is the concept that the Psyker is using the power, not the Death Guard. Which is where we go right back to who actually uses a Stratagem. Hint: It's not the unit targeted by it. Some stratagems even target three units at once, and why would a Stratagem say for a unit to "select" itself?


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 JohnnyHell wrote:
Seems pretty clear that if Death Guard can't make use of a Stratagem you can't use it on their units.

Each Stratagem already has the valid targets listed in it. Alpha Legion Infantry, Chaos Cultists, any Heretic Astartes, etc. There is no requirement to overcomplicate this by making it redundant.

Also, if Death Guard weren't supposed to be considered Heretic Astartes, then why do they still have the Heretic Astartes keyword?

 techsoldaten wrote:
So, Death Guard do not get access to the Dark Heretics discipline, meaning no warptime. All of their psykers, however, have the Heretic Astartes keyword, and the Psyker Keyword.

The CSM Chaos Familiar stratagem allows psykers with the Heretic Astartes and Psyker keywords to replace one psychic power with one from the Dark Heretics discipline.

Were I to take a combined force of Death Guard and CSMs, would I be able to use the Chaos Familiar stratagem on a Death Guard psyker?

In Codex: CSM, on p. 156, it says: "Note that the Death Guard and Thousand Sons Legions deviate significantly in terms of organization and therefore cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section."

While I recognize DG and TS are going to have their own stratagems, does this passage mean they cannot be the target of a stratagem for another detachment in the army? It seems to me they can be the target, so long as they have the appropriate keywords.

No. Death Guard are not permitted to make use of any of the chaos space marine stratagems.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
No. Death Guard are not permitted to make use of any of the chaos space marine stratagems.

And nowhere is this theory supported by the rules at all.

To back up some of @arkaine's points, there are a number of stratagems that specify the Legion and the Unit Type.

Chaos Familiar specifies keywords to which the stratagem can apply. It says nothing about Legion, detachment or anything else.

 Arkaine wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
No. Death Guard are not permitted to make use of any of the chaos space marine stratagems.

And nowhere is this theory supported by the rules at all.

It's already been quoted enough times. If you can't see how "cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities in this section" could mean anything other you cannot use these rules and abilities, I'm sorry, I have nothing to say.

Yet my interpretation is supported by the rulebook.

For example, pg 201 indicates who makes use of a Stratagem.

"In this mission, the players can use Command Points (CPs) to use the following bonus Stratagems:"

Or on pg 215 under the Matched Play Mission Rules.

"Strategic Discipline - The same stratagem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase."

Any other interpretations regarding who makes use of a Stratagem are pure conjecture. No one can quote to me the page that cites a unit makes use of the stratagem. A unit is merely the target of a stratagem, identical to being the target of a psychic power, or the target of an attack. The stratagems themselves already limit who may be targeted by them and the Death Guard codex continues to make use of the Heretic Astartes keyword as though nothing is out of the ordinary and the stratagems that specify Heretic Astartes keywords continue to function as normal.


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Captyn_Bob wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
No. Death Guard are not permitted to make use of any of the chaos space marine stratagems.

And nowhere is this theory supported by the rules at all.

It's already been quoted enough times. If you can't see how "cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities in this section" could mean anything other you cannot use these rules and abilities, I'm sorry, I have nothing to say.

False, it means you cannot select relics, warlord traits, legion traits, or the psychic powers themselves from that section. It does not state that you cannot be the target of such an ability or power or relic or stratagem. I challenge you to show me where it states such a thing.

 Arkaine wrote:

False, it means you cannot select relics, warlord traits, legion traits, or the psychic powers themselves from that section. It does not state that you cannot be the target of such an ability or power or relic or stratagem. I challenge you to show me where it states such a thing.

I'm really not going to argue with you over the definition of 'make use of'. You're on your own.

More Stratagem rules, pg 242:

"When you build a Battle-forged army, it will have a number of Command Points. These can be spent to utilize Stratagems - each which represents a strategic or tactical asset available to your army." <-- Army, not detachment.

"You can spend Command Points to use a Stratagem before or during a battle." <-- You, not the unit.

"Each time you use a Stratagem, reduce your Command Points total by the appropriate amount." <-- You and Your, stratagems are not used by units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

False, it means you cannot select relics, warlord traits, legion traits, or the psychic powers themselves from that section. It does not state that you cannot be the target of such an ability or power or relic or stratagem. I challenge you to show me where it states such a thing.

I'm really not going to argue with you over the definition of 'make use of'. You're on your own.

No one asked you to argue over the definition of 'make use of'. They asked you to prove that a Death Guard unit is the one using a stratagem. If you want to argue that I can't "make use of" any abilities in the book, then please stop targeting my Death Guard models with Gift of Chaos. They can't make use of its effects.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And to be fair, I backed up my belief which several rule pages and sources. I have not seen a single source that claims that Stratagems are on a per unit or per detachment basis. In fact, the Chaos Codex itself claims otherwise.

Pg 158, Chaos Codex
"If your army is Battle-forged and includes any Chaos Space Marine Detachments you have access to the Stratagems shown here."

Clearly they anticipate you having multiple detachments and grant Stratagem access merely having a single Chaos Space Marine Detachment of any kind.

Maybe.

The chaos familiar strategem lists on it
"Chaos Space Marines Strategem"

If that listing on the strategem is a requirement of who can use thr strategem than death guard cannot. As odd as it sounds, in 8th Death Guard are not Chaos Space Marines.

If you look at page 156 it defines for rules which legions have units which are "Chaos Space Marine units"

Death guard and thousand sons are not included.

Access to the strategem for your army is granted by having a heretic astartes unit, but it appears only chaos space Marine units can use said strategem, which Death Guard are not RAW.

blaktoof wrote:
The chaos familiar strategem lists on it
"Chaos Space Marines Strategem"

If that listing on the strategem is a requirement of who can use thr strategem than death guard cannot.

If that is indeed a requirement for who can use the stratagem. Show me literally anywhere in any book that indicates that. As far as I can tell, it's merely an indicator of what sort of detachment you need to qualify for it. The stratagems already specify if it's an Alpha Legion Infantry that can be targeted. Having it be an Alpha Legion Stratagem is redundant if that dictates who can benefit.

blaktoof wrote:

Access to the strategem for your army is granted by having a heretic astartes unit, but it appears only chaos space Marine units can use said strategem, which Death Guard are not RAW.

Again, I'm not contradicting you or saying you're wrong, but show me anywhere in that book that claims only Chaos Space Marines can use said stratagem. The only mention about Chaos Space Marines regarding stratagems was referring to qualifying for access to the stratagem.

Arkaine,
Nothing states we need to have a detachment of Emperor’s Children in order to gain access to Excess of Violence, as an example.
Doesn't prove or disprove any point, as the fact nothing informs us what this sub-title means in the first place has sort of become the point....

Just to be clear on what prompted me to see this as a possibility, I am looking at keywords closely and how they are used in this edition.

The BRB has this to say about Keywords:

"All datasheets have a list of keywords, sometimes separated into Faction keywords and other keywords. The former can be used as a guide to help decide which models to include in your army, but otherwise both sets of keywords are functionally the same. Sometimes a rule will say that it applies to models that have a specific keyword. For example, a rule might say that it applies to ‘all ADEPTUS ASTARTES models’. This means it would only apply to models that have the Adeptus Astartes keyword on their datasheet."

In this case, when the BRB talks about keywords, it is saying they are what determines what rules can be applied to what units. Keywords are what determine how a rule can be applied. Nowhere in the BRB does it say that a stratagem can only be applied to a specific detachment in one's army.

In the example of the Chaos Familiar stratagem, under the title, it says this stratagem is available to Chaos Space Marines. This means which faction can trigger the stratagem, it does not specify the unit that the stratagem applies to. Grandfather's Blessings, for example, says Chaos Space Marines Stratagem, but applies to Heretic Astartes Nurgle Infantry or Biker units. Chaos Space Marines is not a keyword here, it does not limit what can benefit from the stratagem - the rule itself does.

The Chaos Familiar stratagem states it can be applied to any unit with the keywords Heretic Astartes and Psyker. Given that the rules for applying stratagems are granted by keyword, not by detachment, I see no reason why someone should assume a stratagem can only be applied to units from a specific detachment. The rules clearly state what units can receive them, independent of faction.

 JinxDragon wrote:
Arkaine,
Nothing states we need to have a detachment of Emperor’s Children in order to gain access to Excess of Violence, as an example.
Doesn't prove or disprove any point, as the fact nothing informs us what this sub-title means in the first place has sort of become the point....

I agree, though Excess of Violence tells you what it can target so it doesn't affect the normal play. I agree that the subtitle's meaning is unclear and so it's silly to come up with such bulletproof statements as have been made by others. There are multiple interpretations of the same title with no indication otherwise.

Let me try to put this into perspective for the people who think Death Guard wouldn't be affected.

Supposition - The Title means only that type of detachment can benefit.
Verification - The rules cited on what Chaos Space Marines detachments actually are.
Given - Alpha Legion Stratagem exists called Forward Operatives.
Presumption - Forward Operatives may only be used on an Alpha Legion detachment.
Contradiction - Does that mean I cannot use Forward Operatives on an Alpha Legion Infantry that exists in a Chaos Space Marines detachment of mixed legions?

In fact, are all the legion-specific stratagems now useless in Chaos Space Marines detachments? Do I need to keep track of what units on the table come from which detachment now?

 techsoldaten wrote:
Just to be clear on what prompted me to see this as a possibility, I am looking at keywords closely and how they are used in this edition.

The BRB has this to say about Keywords:

"All datasheets have a list of keywords, sometimes separated into Faction keywords and other keywords. The former can be used as a guide to help decide which models to include in your army, but otherwise both sets of keywords are functionally the same. Sometimes a rule will say that it applies to models that have a specific keyword. For example, a rule might say that it applies to ‘all ADEPTUS ASTARTES models’. This means it would only apply to models that have the Adeptus Astartes keyword on their datasheet."

In this case, when the BRB talks about keywords, it is saying they are what determines what rules can be applied to what units. Keywords are what determine how a rule can be applied. Nowhere in the BRB does it say that a stratagem can only be applied to a specific detachment in one's army.

In the example of the Chaos Familiar stratagem, under the title, it says this stratagem is available to Chaos Space Marines. This means which faction can trigger the stratagem, it does not specify the unit that the stratagem applies to. Grandfather's Blessings, for example, says Chaos Space Marines Stratagem, but applies to Heretic Astartes Nurgle Infantry or Biker units. Chaos Space Marines is not a keyword here, it does not limit what can benefit from the stratagem - the rule itself does.

The Chaos Familiar stratagem states it can be applied to any unit with the keywords Heretic Astartes and Psyker. Given that the rules for applying stratagems are granted by keyword, not by detachment, I see no reason why someone should assume a stratagem can only be applied to units from a specific detachment. The rules clearly state what units can receive them, independent of faction.

Chaos Space Marines is not a keyword, but does have a rules definition on p.156 of the heretic astartes codex. That definition includes specific keywords as a group, notably of which Death Guard are absent from said grouping.

That the time is taken to explain rules wise what "Chaos Space Marines" refers to has some meaning.

What "chaos space marines strategem means" is nebulous. Does it mean having a chaos space Marine detachment you get access to these, does it mean only chaos space Marines can make use of these, is it flavor txt?

How does that interact with the passage of thousand sons and death guard not getting access to any of the rules as called out in the codex.

Uncertain.

Certaintiies- if you have a detachment that includes only units from the same <heretic astartes> keyword you get access to their legion trait, relics, wl trait, and Strategems. Whether you are limited to only use those on chaos space Marine units (chaos space Marine rule p.146 and chaos space Marine strategem listed on each strategem) is not called out.

Death Guard in terms of the Chaos Space Marine rule, are not Chaos Space Marines.

EDIT-

There is one other certainty.

Note that the Death Guard and Thousand Sons Legions deviate significantly in terms of organisation and therefore cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section; instead they have bespoke rules and abilities detailed in their own codexes

p.156 Codex Heretic Astartes.

The section in question is "The Lost and the Damned" according to the table of contents it spans pages 156 to 168. Including strategems. If you are applying Chaos Familiar to a death guard unit then the Death Guard unit is "making use of the abilities listed" which is in conflict with the RAW.

So RAW answer to this OP, is no.

blaktoof wrote:
If you are applying Chaos Familiar to a death guard unit then the Death Guard unit is "making use of the abilities listed" which is in conflict with the RAW.

That point is in contention as demonstrated above. It is the player, not the unit, that uses the stratagem. To say benefiting from a stratagem is the same as "making use of the abilities" is the same as saying Death Guard cannot be affected by Warptime even if cast by an outside psyker.

 Arkaine wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
If you are applying Chaos Familiar to a death guard unit then the Death Guard unit is "making use of the abilities listed" which is in conflict with the RAW.

That point is in contention as demonstrated above. It is the player, not the unit, that uses the stratagem. To say benefiting from a stratagem is the same as "making use of the abilities" is the same as saying Death Guard cannot be affected by Warptime even if cast by an outside psyker.

If the unit is benefiting from the stratagem it is in conflict with "Cannot Make use of any of the rules or abilities list in this section"

Is the stratagem a rule or ability? - Yes.

Are the Death Guard called out as not being able to make use of any of them? - Yes

Regardless of what the heading on the stratagems says, at the beginning of the section it calls out that Death Guard cannot benefit from them as they are "rules listed in this section" specifically. So generally chaos space marines can make use of the chaos space marine strategems. Specifically rules as written none of the rules between p.156 and 168 can be used on or by death guard or thousand sons. Yes an army can have death guard and a chaos space marine detachment which gives it access to both strategems. Specifically as called out by the rules those cannot be used by death guard. Yes the player uses the stratagem, but saying it is used on a Death Guard unit goes against the specific rules as written on p.156 which says "Death Guard cannot make use of any rules or abilities in this section" Because you are trying to have the unit make use of the rule.

If you are saying they can use chaos familiar to swap powers, you are using a rule from the section which they are specifically stated as not being able to use.

There is no actual ambiguity or contention if that page of rules is included in the discussion.

blaktoof wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
If you are applying Chaos Familiar to a death guard unit then the Death Guard unit is "making use of the abilities listed" which is in conflict with the RAW.

That point is in contention as demonstrated above. It is the player, not the unit, that uses the stratagem. To say benefiting from a stratagem is the same as "making use of the abilities" is the same as saying Death Guard cannot be affected by Warptime even if cast by an outside psyker.

If the unit is benefiting from the stratagem it is in conflict with "Cannot Make use of any of the rules or abilities list in this section"

Is the stratagem a rule or ability? - Yes.

Are the Death Guard called out as not being able to make use of any of them? - Yes

Regardless of what the heading on the stratagems says, at the beginning of the section it calls out that Death Guard cannot benefit from them as they are "rules listed in this section" specifically. So generally chaos space marines can make use of the chaos space marine strategems. Specifically rules as written none of the rules between p.156 and 168 can be used on or by death guard or thousand sons. Yes an army can have death guard and a chaos space marine detachment which gives it access to both strategems. Specifically as called out by the rules those cannot be used by death guard. Yes the player uses the stratagem, but saying it is used on a Death Guard unit goes against the specific rules as written on p.156 which says "Death Guard cannot make use of any rules or abilities in this section" Because you are trying to have the unit make use of the rule.

If you are saying they can use chaos familiar to swap powers, you are using a rule from the section which they are specifically stated as not being able to use.

There is no actual ambiguity or contention if that page of rules is included in the discussion.

To actually believe what you say means Death Guard are unaffected by Dark Hereticus powers.

Is the psychic power a rule or ability? - Yes.

Are the Death Guard called out as not being able to make use of any of them? - Yes.

Therefore, Warptime cannot affect Death Guard even if a normal Chaos Sorcerer casts it on them. Likewise, Death Guard are immune to Gift of Chaos, Death Hex, and Infernal Gaze. They may also not be buffed by Diabolic Strength and Prescience. Heck, let's go further. You cannot use relic effects on Death Guard because again they are immune to those. Likewise, Warlord Traits like Lord of Terror or Flames of Spite have no effect on enemy Death Guard units because once again they are not able to be affected by any of the rules or abilities in this section.

There is room for ambiguity and contention because your interpretation creates terrible consequences that seem to defy logic. You cannot have it both ways. You may not say that SOME effects from this section are eligible and others are not. You may not claim that psykers are the ones using a power, not the Death Guard unit, then forget that the player is the one using the stratagem, not the Death Guard unit.

If you want to claim there is no ambiguity, prove it. List your sources that explain all of this contradiction or at the very least state how these rules interact with the above mentioned problems in a logical way. Otherwise, your Alpha Legion trait that subtracts 1 from hit rolls doesn't apply when Death Guard are shooting at it because Death Guard are unable to "make use of rules" in this section.

blaktoof wrote:

Chaos Space Marines is not a keyword, but does have a rules definition on p.156 of the heretic astartes codex. That definition includes specific keywords as a group, notably of which Death Guard are absent from said grouping.

That the time is taken to explain rules wise what "Chaos Space Marines" refers to has some meaning.

You are absolutely right, "Chaos Space Marines" is a faction and the rules around what Legions are part of it are spelled out clearly. It says:

"Note that the Death Guard and Thousand Sons Legions deviate significantly in terms of organization and therefore cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section"

Which makes me think we are getting hung up on the use of the phrase "make use of."

The BRB states (p. 242) "When you build a Battle-forged army, it will have a number of Command Points. These can be used to utilize Stratagems - each of which represents a strategic or tactical asset available to your army." It goes on to say, "You can spend Command Points to use a Stratagem before or during a battle," and also "... some missions, battlezones and expansions may introduce additional Stratagems to your battles."

A few points.

* Stratagems are made available to the army. They are not made available to the detachment. The rules for Battle-forged make it clear that armies can consist of multiple detachments.

* The player uses the Stratagem by spending command points. There is nothing in the rules to suggest units use the Stratagem. RAW, Death Guard units would not be "making use of" Chaos Familiar, since it's a player who takes this action.

* New expansions (i.e. Codexes) expand the number of Stratagems available to use. So, when I take a CSM detachment and a DG detachment, I have access to all the Stratagems for both armies, since they are both detachments that introduce additional Stratagems.

Given these points, RAW, it's reasonable to say that the player is the one who makes use of Stratagems, not the unit.

What I was saying in my previous comment is individual stratagems have rules for how they can be applied based on KEYWORDS. The Stratagem is possessed by the army, the player is the one who uses the Stratagem, and the Stratagem itself spells out what unit can benefit from it.

So I am agreeing with you. There are rules for what constitutes the Chaos Space Marine faction. These rules limit me from taking a pure Death Guard army and using the Stratagems contained in Codex: CSM. But in an army that consists of a CSM and a DG detachment, I am free to apply Stratagems according to the rules spelled out in the Stratagem, which is based on KEYWORD (not faction.)

blaktoof wrote:

What "chaos space marines strategem means" is nebulous. Does it mean having a chaos space Marine detachment you get access to these, does it mean only chaos space Marines can make use of these, is it flavor txt?

How does that interact with the passage of thousand sons and death guard not getting access to any of the rules as called out in the codex.

Uncertain.

This is a permissive gaming system. RAW, access to Stratagems is granted through the use of expansions. Each Stratagem spells out what it can be applied to based on Keyword.

I have seen nothing in the rules to suggest another interpretation.

Understand, no one is arguing that armies consisting only of TS or DG units should have access to Stratagems from the CSM Codex. The argument is that Stratagems are available based on the expansions being used, and that Stratagems themselves specify how they are applied.

blaktoof wrote:

Certaintiies- if you have a detachment that includes only units from the same <heretic astartes> keyword you get access to their legion trait, relics, wl trait, and Strategems. Whether you are limited to only use those on chaos space Marine units (chaos space Marine rule p.146 and chaos space Marine strategem listed on each strategem) is not called out.

Why would it need to be called out? The rules around how to gain access to a Stratagem, how to use Stratagems, and how to apply a Stratagem are all spelled out in detail.

There is no rule prohibiting a player from applying a Stratagem to any unit in a Battle-forged army.

blaktoof wrote:

Death Guard in terms of the Chaos Space Marine rule, are not Chaos Space Marines.

EDIT-

There is one other certainty.

Note that the Death Guard and Thousand Sons Legions deviate significantly in terms of organisation and therefore cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section; instead they have bespoke rules and abilities detailed in their own codexes

p.156 Codex Heretic Astartes.

The section in question is "The Lost and the Damned" according to the table of contents it spans pages 156 to 168. Including strategems. If you are applying Chaos Familiar to a death guard unit then the Death Guard unit is "making use of the abilities listed" which is in conflict with the RAW.

So RAW answer to this OP, is no.

Again, RAW, units do not make use of Stratagems. Players make use of Stratagems. This rule prohibits DG and TS players from accessing these Stratagems.

So no, the unit is not "making use of the abilities listed," that's not possible. That would be the equivalent of the unit rolling the dice to hit - the player does that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:

If the unit is benefiting from the stratagem it is in conflict with "Cannot Make use of any of the rules or abilities list in this section"

Is the stratagem a rule or ability? - Yes.

No, a Stratagem is not a rule or an ability. A Stratagem "is a strategic or tactical asset available to your army." BRB p 242.

DG and TS do not have access to these strategic or tactical assets. CSMs do. The strategic or tactical assets themselves spell out how they can be applied.

Also, you are misquoting the CSM Codex. It says: "Note that the Death Guard and Thousand Sons Legions deviate significantly in terms of organization and therefore cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section."

It says nothing about benefiting from the rule or ability. Otherwise, you are arguing that no DG or TS unit could be buffed by a psychic power from Dark Hereticus.

It's a fair interpretation of "use" when applying a stratagem to a unut, that the unit is using it.
This "RAW the player uses it" argument is lawyer talk, but doesn't hold.
Being affected by a psychic power is totally different.

Clearly the rules authors agree, as the Death Guard stratagems
"Can only be used by the Death guard".
Or does the player have to join a fictional chaos legion to use them?

If you use chaos familiar on a Death Guard unit, you are trying to have the unit use the stratagem to swap powers. That is against the rules as written.

That is not my comment of what is intended, that is not my interpretation.

You the player are electing to use a stratagem. The stratagem you are trying to use is targeting a Death Guard unit, you the player are trying to make the death guard unit use the stratagem to swap powers.

The rules as written specifically say you cannot use any of the rules between p.156 and 168 for Death Guard. There is nothing ambiguous or uncertain or contentious about that.

Therefore you cannot use the powers/relics/warlord traits/strategems for death guard.

If you think that somehow being the target of a rule or ability is the same as being able to use a rule or ability, or in this case not use- that is another discussion.

Clearly it states the deathguard may not make use of the chaos familiar stratagem, as it is included in the rules for the lost and the damned section which the deathguard are specifically not allowed to use.

If you want to follow the logic that somehow "death guard" isn't using the stratagem so its okay then RAW no chaos player can use the rules between p156 and p168 because whatever legion you think you have is not using the power either so is likely not an eligible unit to nominate to benefit for a trait, or stratagem. Which makes no sense.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
It's a fair interpretation of "use" when applying a stratagem to a unut, that the unit is using it.
This "RAW the player uses it" argument is lawyer talk, but doesn't hold.
Being affected by a psychic power is totally different.

Clearly the rules authors agree, as the Death Guard stratagems
"Can only be used by the Death guard".
Or does the player have to join a fictional chaos legion to use them?

Lawyer talk... heh. I provided a pretty complete run down of what the rules around Stratagems are based on the actual contents of the BRB. GW has been very specific in spelling out how they fit into the game, and I believe the interpretation from the OP is consistent with the rules. it's clear the gaming community is still getting used to what Stratagems are and how they actually operate, making this an important question.

Instead of simply dismissing the points made, perhaps point out something in the rules I may have overlooked? Saying that psychic powers are different doesn't refute anything that's been said, it just makes it feel like you have nothing to contribute to the discussion.

With regard to your question about Death Guard Stratagems, I really don't know what you are asking. Access to Stratagems are gained by using factions from expansions, i.e. Codexes, and they apply to the army - again, per the rules. Stratagems themselves contain rules for how they can be applied and contain restrictions based on keyword.

If you want to take a pure Death Guard army, go ahead. If you want to combine factions into multiple detachments, go ahead. Both are legal and neither represents a fictional Legion, Traitor forces fight together all the time in the fluff.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
It's a fair interpretation of "use" when applying a stratagem to a unut, that the unit is using it.
This "RAW the player uses it" argument is lawyer talk, but doesn't hold.
Being affected by a psychic power is totally different.

Please cite pages that support this. Quote sections of the rules that claim there is a difference between a psychic power affecting a unit and a stratagem affecting a unit. Indicate somewhere that can verify that a unit is using the stratagem as opposed to the NUMEROUS places in the core rulebook that indicate the PLAYER is using the stratagem, which have been quoted. No lawyer talk is necessary when the rulebook LITERALLY STATES THIS. Please cite the page where you see something contrary to what the rulebook states that supports a unit is the one to use a stratagem. Please also cite where and WHY psychic powers differ other than just your say so.

We need rules, not opinions.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Clearly the rules authors agree, as the Death Guard stratagems
"Can only be used by the Death guard".
Or does the player have to join a fictional chaos legion to use them?

The Death Guard stratagems can only be used by Death Guard just as the Alpha Legion stratagems can only be used by Alpha Legion. This is nothing new. Yes, you have to join the legion for the stratagem to apply to you. Things like Veterans of the Long War exist in their codex for completeness, just as Daemons do even though they ARE NOT DEATH GUARD. If you have a CSM detachment, you already qualify for the version of the same stratagem that works on CSM.

If your logic is that they are separate stratagems, are you claiming that I can use Veterans of the Long War on my Death Guard and then Veterans of the Long War on my CSM in the same phase in Matched play?

blaktoof wrote:
If you use chaos familiar on a Death Guard unit, you are trying to have the unit use the stratagem to swap powers. That is against the rules as written.

That is not my comment of what is intended, that is not my interpretation.

You the player are electing to use a stratagem. The stratagem you are trying to use is targeting a Death Guard unit, you the player are trying to make the death guard unit use the stratagem to swap powers.

The rules as written specifically say you cannot use any of the rules between p.156 and 168 for Death Guard. There is nothing ambiguous or uncertain or contentious about that.

Therefore you cannot use the powers/relics/warlord traits/strategems for death guard.

The BRB is quite clear that Stratagems are available for use within an army based on the use of expansions, i.e. Codexes.

Show me a rule that limits a player's ability to apply a Stratagem based on the detachment. Otherwise you are stating your opinion.

blaktoof wrote:

If you think that somehow being the target of a rule or ability is the same as being able to use a rule or ability, or in this case not use- that is another discussion.

Clearly it states the deathguard may not make use of the chaos familiar stratagem, as it is included in the rules for the lost and the damned section which the deathguard are specifically not allowed to use.

If you want to follow the logic that somehow "death guard" isn't using the stratagem so its okay then RAW no chaos player can use the rules between p156 and p168 because whatever legion you think you have is not using the power either so is likely not an eligible unit to nominate to benefit for a trait, or stratagem. Which makes no sense.

Death Guard are not making use of the Stratagem. No unit makes use of a Stratagem, a player makes use of a Stratagem within the context of the army.

That is Rules as Written and likely RAI too. If not, show me something from the BRB that says different. I cited specific passages in my previous post with page numbers, feel free to cite them yourself and explain how I am misunderstanding.

The passage from the Lost and the Damned that keeps being cited is very clear and consistent with this interpretation. Stratagems are not rules or abilities, they are strategic or tactical assets as defined in the BRB available to armies based on choice of expansion. Each Stratagem contains rules for how it can be applied, based on KEYWORD.

I have no clue why you think this interpretation would disqualify any Legion from using the rules in The Lost and the Damned. Perhaps you could expand on that point so I don't just give up on your contributions to this thread as pure hysteria.

blaktoof wrote:
If you use chaos familiar on a Death Guard unit, you are trying to have the unit use the stratagem to swap powers. That is against the rules as written.

As we repeatedly ask yet you never state, the core question is why.

blaktoof wrote:
That is not my comment of what is intended, that is not my interpretation.
You the player are electing to use a stratagem. The stratagem you are trying to use is targeting a Death Guard unit, you the player are trying to make the death guard unit use the stratagem to swap powers.
The rules as written specifically say you cannot use any of the rules between p.156 and 168 for Death Guard. There is nothing ambiguous or uncertain or contentious about that.
Therefore you cannot use the powers/relics/warlord traits/strategems for death guard.

Yes there is. You the player are using the stratagem, not the Death Guard. Targets are not the users of powers, stratagems, or attacks. They are the victims. It is not in contention that Death Guard cannot use the abilities in the book. It's in contention that targets of the stratagem, powers, or effects cannot benefit from them. I recommend going back to my earlier post and explaining to me why Death Guard are not immune to being shot by Infernal Gaze under your logic.

blaktoof wrote:
Clearly it states the deathguard may not make use of the chaos familiar stratagem, as it is included in the rules for the lost and the damned section which the deathguard are specifically not allowed to use.
If you want to follow the logic that somehow "death guard" isn't using the stratagem so its okay then RAW no chaos player can use the rules between p156 and p168 because whatever legion you think you have is not using the power either so is likely not an eligible unit to nominate to benefit for a trait, or stratagem. Which makes no sense.

This false. The stratagems do not require any sort of legion to be activated. They require a legion to TARGET. All of the stratagems say something along the lines of "[You the player] select a HERETIC ASTARTES Infantry unit and then do all this stuff to it". Or with the legion ones, it states "select an ALPHA LEGION Infantry unit" and then do stuff to it. None of that prohibits players from doing so as they are not required to have a legion of their own to select a unit on the field that has that legion.

Clearly you are mistaken and are arguing without contradicting anything we are saying regarding the rules. Again, if you have some sort of argument against any of this, make it. So far you have not contended any of this but are merely repeating your concept of what use means.

blaktoof wrote:
If you think that somehow being the target of a rule or ability is the same as being able to use a rule or ability, or in this case not use- that is another discussion.

Wrong, this is the entire point and the very heart of this discussion. It is NOT another discussion, it's the SAME discussion. You are the one claiming that being the target of a rule or ability is the same as using the rule or ability. If you believe that, then you are claiming that psychic powers have no effect on Death Guard units, nor do Warlord Traits, nor do Legion Traits that apply negative modifiers to them.

You're making the claims here that the user and the target are the same thing.

Just to try to make the point about Stratagems being used by the player - not the unit - more clear, think about the following.

The Gifts of Chaos Stratagem is used before the battle to allow armies to take more than one Artefact. It's very specific about who can receive the Artefact, it must be a Chaos Space Marine Character.

On the one hand, the player activates this Stratagem. The game hasn't even started, there's no unit making use of any rule or ability. If anything, it's affecting an army list.

On the other hand, this Stratagem is very specific about how it can be applied. It must be applied to a Chaos Space Marine CHARACTER. It could not be applied to any unit from another faction besides Chaos Space Marines.

Now look at Chaos Boon or Chaos Familiar. They are also specific about how the Stratagem can be applied, they both specify a unit with the keywords HERETIC ASTARTES and either CHARACTER or PSYKER.

Given that GW saw fit to use Chaos Space Marine (the faction) in the Gift of Chaos Stratagem, why would they revert to the HERETIC ASTARTES keyword for these other Stratagems? It's clear they intended some Stratagems to only be used within faction detachments, and others to be applied based on keyword.

I think we are simply seeing rules that are clearly written, but that no one noticed until the Death Guard Codex came out.

If you want to argue the other way, go ahead, but please show me a rule that says you can only apply Stratagems to a given faction outside of the rules within the individual Stratagem. I can't find any global rule that prohibits this practice, and it's very clear that a Stratagem is something very different from a rule or ability.