Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

A voice of reason no doubt.

(She murdered Wesley in DDS1 and no one ever called her on it)

Oh right...

Alas poor Wesley, you had to die so Karen could have like 2 minutes of character development, which she instantly forgets, and so Fisk can go more unhinged?

Yeah that was bizarre and seemed out of character for someone as careful as Wesley. Although I can't remember if anyone found out what happened to call her out on it.

Can we really call that "murder"?

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Can we really call that "murder"?

Remind me what happened again?

...vaguely I thought it was more self-defense...

Here you go!

http://thelegalgeeks.com/2015/04/17/did-karen-page-on-daredevil-act-in-self-defense/

They have continually be hinting at some 'dark Secret" karen has in her past via dialogue. Ben the Reporter mentions it, Karen references it as why she came to New York, and Karen even says to Wesley something about ....

"What makes you think I haven't killed/shot anyone before?"

By the way, Karen didn't just forget about it. She still has issues with it and the fact that Fisk will find out and come after her. She just didn't get to talk about it too much in the second half of DD Season 2, or Defenders but it is still there.

You could argue that the whole reason she is such a "crusader" for Frank and the Irish Thug is BECAUSE she is feeling guilty about her past actions with Wesley and her "Dark Secret!".

Karen is the real villain of the Netflix Marvel series and maybe someone, in this case Punisher, figured that out and will save the audience from her horribleness.

 whembly wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Can we really call that "murder"?

Remind me what happened again?

...vaguely I thought it was more self-defense...

Drugged and kidnapped her and then threatened to kill everyone she cares about. He puts a loaded gun on the table to intimidate her, which Karen grabs when he's distracted by his phone ringing.

Not guilty, by reason of totally asking for it.

Oh hell yes.

 Alpharius wrote:
Here you go!

http://thelegalgeeks.com/2015/04/17/did-karen-page-on-daredevil-act-in-self-defense/

How do you even question whether that was self defense or not? The enforcer of a crime syndicate just threatened to kill you and everybody you love after kidnapping you.

Self defense. Without a doubt.

I...wasn't?

 Alpharius wrote:
I...wasn't?

Sorry, that wasn't directed at you. I was questioning the article. It did seem that I was though.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I...wasn't?

Sorry, that wasn't directed at you. I was questioning the article. It did seem that I was though.

Possibly but we still shouldn't forget the awfulness of Alpharius.

I just wanted to say "awfulness of Alpharius".

 Ahtman wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I...wasn't?

Sorry, that wasn't directed at you. I was questioning the article. It did seem that I was though.

Possibly but we still shouldn't forget the awfulness of Alpharius.

I just wanted to say "awfulness of Alpharius".

Are we sure this is Alpharius?

Probably his brother. Just sayin'.....

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Yeah that was bizarre and seemed out of character for someone as careful as Wesley. Although I can't remember if anyone found out what happened to call her out on it.

but why be careful when you've got what appears to be a helpless, easily intimidated victim in front of you, not his fault he didn't know she's a top-notch murderess from (insert shady Marvel black ops set-up here)

I think Karen's problems are more related to:

1) Dealing with killing someone - provided that her "Dark Secret"™®© isn't already something like that?

2) If Fisk finds out...

Karen's the bitchy lawyer, right?

Technically, she's not a lawyer, but yes, I suppose you have the right character in mind?

She also keeps trying to Daredevil from being Daredevil because she is selfish and terrible. Don't forget she tricked Ben Urich into seeing Kingpin's mother which directly led to Kingpin killing Urich so Karen could take his office and job.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

but why be careful when you've got what appears to be a helpless, easily intimidated victim in front of you, not his fault he didn't know she's a top-notch murderess from (insert shady Marvel black ops set-up here)

Because he was a careful person and you never know how somebody will react when you put them in that sort of situation. Just because someone is easily intimidated doesn't mean they'd be unwilling to kill in those circumstances. It was ridiculous and forced.

Count me aboard the Karen hate train. I already disliked her from the beginning from her abrasive and somewhat needy personality. Killing Wesley (and getting away with it!) was the final nail in the coffin for my low opinion of her. She acts so self-righteous despite her status as a murderer. Her inclusion in the Defenders (I know why, but I basically skipped it whenever she came in) IMO was basically unnecessary.

You do realize that Wesley was a horrible person, who regularly did horrible things, right?

Isn't self righteous murder the new hotness amongst the heroes community these days ?

I wouldn't even call it self-righteous; it's not like she's out there bragging about it, and she seemed pretty freaked out after the fact.

Wesley talked about how he was going to have everyone she cared about murdered, then left a loaded gun on the table. Karen's the Queen of Bad Decisions, and thus has far more experience with their consequences than Wesley; he didn't stand a chance

I think - in that setting - Karen's actions were...justified?

More or less.

 Grimskul wrote:
Count me aboard the Karen hate train. I already disliked her from the beginning from her abrasive and somewhat needy personality. Killing Wesley (and getting away with it!) was the final nail in the coffin for my low opinion of her. She acts so self-righteous despite her status as a murderer. Her inclusion in the Defenders (I know why, but I basically skipped it whenever she came in) IMO was basically unnecessary.

Listen, I will be the first person to step in and say that there was a bad shoot or there was a way out of this without violence. But when a known murderer kidnaps you, then explains how he is going to kill everybody you know and love. You can't take that chance.

People seem stuck on her shooting Wesley and then lying about it and obfuscating the truth when she did other terrible things. One act isn't what makes her terrible person; there is so much more to her that makes her offensive.

 Alpharius wrote:
I think - in that setting - Karen's actions were...justified?

More or less.

Oh absolutely.

I dislike the scene because Wesley was a moron and died and I liked him (as a villain not in some he's-not-that-bad-really way).

Karen does do other morally dubious things though and in general I found her character slightly grating. She wasn't anywhere near as bad as Elektra though.


Back to the Punisher, I'm not too keen on him hosing down US soldiers but I guess they're going to be super-evil ones? I remember a Punisher comic in which shady government officials sent special forces (I think) after the Punisher and he couldn't kill them due to his code. He'd break arms but would never actually kill (or permanently cripple) them. It was pretty interesting and exposed a vulnerability for him.