Switch Theme:

What made 3.5 Edition Chaos Overpowered?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

I played 3rd and 4th Edition Armoured Battlegroup and I remember the Chaos Codex was quite the opponent.

Tons of great anti-armour shooting mixed with tons of close combat. It was the only codex I can think of where I had to make hard tactical choices between nailing the anti-tank guns or the anti-tank stabbies.

That said, I don't think it was that OP, I think it was well designed. I think everything else should have had that level of thought, detail, and options.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Also one other thing I didn't really focus on was that you could have Cult Havocs. Specifically Nurgle and Slaanesh (the other two couldn't get it for obvious reasons). The most obvious of this is that they got far more special weapons than the cult troops we have now. The other benefit was that if you didn't run a lord with the same mark, they became elites. And Slaaneshi Havocs didn't have to upgrade their weapons to sonic weapons. (You could also run them as a squad of 5 armed all with Doom Sirens in the elites slot. They were far less fragile than it seemed due to Rhinos letting you assault out of cover)


Not to nitpick but it only mentions that vanilla Chaos Space Marines get turned into Elites (due to the "in which case they remain a troops choice" clause), and so Elite Havocs were a nogo.

Being able to give Wings to Possessed or Bikes/Wargear to Chosen was helpful though. Ever since the 4th Gav Codex, *every* CSM Elite has been "moves like infantry. Good luck being relevant."
   
Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






I remember seeing it saying that anything that has a mono-god mark gets shifted to elites and only retain their old battlefield role if their mark matches that of the "general" of the army (which was either the Chaos Lord, the Lieutenant with the highest cost, or, in the absence of both, the champion who serves as the vessel for the GD).

EDIT: Also T-Sons Rubric Marines could take Terminator Armor, but got shifted to Elites regardless of your general's mark if you do so.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/21 15:00:50


Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!


Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Just one aspect.
In an RTT, I played a Chaos army with 2 Lieutenants on bikes, 5x6 Daemonettes, 6 Daemonettes on Steeds, 1 Defiler, and 3 Obliterators.
Each Lieutenant had 9 minor psychic powers. I needed to roll on a table to get Siren so that the Lieutenants could not be shot or charged.
The games went all the same. The Lieutenants turbo boosted forward in turn 1. In turn 2, the Daemonettes were summond and in turn 3 or 4 the game was basically over.
This happened to my friends and ETC players Fritz (with Nids) and J. (with Iron Warriors).
I won the tournament clearly but the other players wanted to kill me at the start of the event.
I never played this list again. But its legendary. Each time I met one of the participants later on, we talked about this tourney.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

5.) Chosen were pretty good for me simply due to the customization; you could come with something completely out of left field if you got creative. Points was really the only drawback to them but they really were mini-chaos lords (or rather, the 1-wound counterpart to the 2 wound lieutenant and 3 wound chaos lord). Also, one thing people tend to forget from this time was that Chosen Terminators could take 1 heavy weapon per 3 MODELS. I once trimmed the fat so hard on my army just to get a unit of 9 Khorne Chosen to walk around with Reapers and power weapons in some unholy blob of death (it was hella fun).



Not being nitpicky or anything, but Chosen of the time worked pretty much exactly like Wolf Guard of the time. Numbers limited by the points cost of the game and I think you needed a Lord (which you'd have because Chaos Lords were awesome). Both units could take pretty much what ever they wanted.
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




Something that no one has mentioned is/was a chapter approved article that allowed you to make cult terminators. I loved noise marines and it was great to have terminators who could move and shoot blast masters while flanked by other termies in the unit using sonic blasters and the leader having a doom siren in addition to 2 power weapons. This is in a unit of 6 terminators (Slaanesh's sacred # which gave you free something).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/21 15:54:02


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Steelcity

 wuestenfux wrote:
Just one aspect.
In an RTT, I played a Chaos army with 2 Lieutenants on bikes, 5x6 Daemonettes, 6 Daemonettes on Steeds, 1 Defiler, and 3 Obliterators.
Each Lieutenant had 9 minor psychic powers. I needed to roll on a table to get Siren so that the Lieutenants could not be shot or charged.
The games went all the same. The Lieutenants turbo boosted forward in turn 1. In turn 2, the Daemonettes were summond and in turn 3 or 4 the game was basically over.
This happened to my friends and ETC players Fritz (with Nids) and J. (with Iron Warriors).
I won the tournament clearly but the other players wanted to kill me at the start of the event.
I never played this list again. But its legendary. Each time I met one of the participants later on, we talked about this tourney.


Yup, it was all Siren power and rending. People tend to blame an entire codex for 2 bad rules. Otherwise the codex was awesome and fun to play with (much more so than current books).

Keeper of the DomBox
Warhammer Armies - Click to see galleries of fully painted armies
32,000, 19,000, Renegades - 10,000 , 7,500,  
   
Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Something that no one has mentioned is/was a chapter approved article that allowed you to make cult terminators. I loved noise marines and it was great to have terminators who could move and shoot blast masters while flanked by other termies in the unit using sonic blasters and the leader having a doom siren in addition to 2 power weapons. This is in a unit of 6 terminators (Slaanesh's sacred # which gave you free something).


The main CSM codex already let you do this, where you could swap out a reaper autocannon for a blast master for free or a combi bolter for a Sonic blaster (forgot if this one cost points or not). The freebie was a champion upgrade. It's small on paper, but huge in practice since it let that one terminator start loading up on gifts, wargear and other shenanigans. However these are less egregious than now because back then the Blast Master and Sonic Blaster weren't as powerful as they were now (the Sonic Blaster is basically a storm bolter back then). The Doom Siren was still buttpains to the opponent though.

Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!


Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
Made in kr
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks






your mind

I just remember a wall of rhinos full of blood soaked chainswords in the face...

   
Made in ie
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle






With all the talk about infiltrating units, I do feel that it's worth noting that infiltrate worked differently in 3rd ed., what it did was scenario dependent and you couldn't use it in some of them.

Some perceptions of the 3.5 chaos book were probably coloured by the fact that it was a very options-dense book in an edition where codices were quite sparse. Also army composition bonuses/trade-offs, such as getting free cult marine champions in exchange for certain unit/wargear restrictions, weren't as common. It was difficult for some CSM players to keep track of all their wargear and special rules, imagine what was like for their poor opponents!

 
   
Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 nurgle5 wrote:
With all the talk about infiltrating units, I do feel that it's worth noting that infiltrate worked differently in 3rd ed., what it did was scenario dependent and you couldn't use it in some of them.

Some perceptions of the 3.5 chaos book were probably coloured by the fact that it was a very options-dense book in an edition where codices were quite sparse. Also army composition bonuses/trade-offs, such as getting free cult marine champions in exchange for certain unit/wargear restrictions, weren't as common. It was difficult for some CSM players to keep track of all their wargear and special rules, imagine what was like for their poor opponents!


That actually reminds me of another thing; Deepstrike were dependent on the scenario as well, but Daemon Summoning didn't. This meant that Daemons were one of the few really reliable DS units you could have at the time (not at all helped by the fact that they didn't scatter when near an Icon and could still charge out of DS).

Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!


Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Something that no one has mentioned is/was a chapter approved article that allowed you to make cult terminators. I loved noise marines and it was great to have terminators who could move and shoot blast masters while flanked by other termies in the unit using sonic blasters and the leader having a doom siren in addition to 2 power weapons. This is in a unit of 6 terminators (Slaanesh's sacred # which gave you free something).


Said Cult Terminator article was for the original 3rd ed Chaos Codex by Jervis & Gav, the one that people only remember for having Doomrider in it, and no options.
   
Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 MagicJuggler wrote:
 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Also one other thing I didn't really focus on was that you could have Cult Havocs. Specifically Nurgle and Slaanesh (the other two couldn't get it for obvious reasons). The most obvious of this is that they got far more special weapons than the cult troops we have now. The other benefit was that if you didn't run a lord with the same mark, they became elites. And Slaaneshi Havocs didn't have to upgrade their weapons to sonic weapons. (You could also run them as a squad of 5 armed all with Doom Sirens in the elites slot. They were far less fragile than it seemed due to Rhinos letting you assault out of cover)


Not to nitpick but it only mentions that vanilla Chaos Space Marines get turned into Elites (due to the "in which case they remain a troops choice" clause), and so Elite Havocs were a nogo.

Being able to give Wings to Possessed or Bikes/Wargear to Chosen was helpful though. Ever since the 4th Gav Codex, *every* CSM Elite has been "moves like infantry. Good luck being relevant."


Just got home to check the codex. On page 38 of the 3.5 Codex: Chaos Space Marines, under "The Force Organization Chart", it specifically calls out Troops, Fast Attack and Heavy Support, and says that if a unit is given a Mark of Chaos other than Undivided, it will become Elites unless the mark matches that of the Commander. Then it goes on to define the commander, who is either the Chaos Lord/Daemon Prince present, the Lieutenant with the highest point cost if no Lord is present, or the Aspiring Champion serving as the vessel for the GD if neither of those two are present.

Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!


Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
Made in fr
Fresh-Faced New User




The Warp

 Formosa wrote:
Just checked, Deamonic stature, bikes, steeds, followers mark of khorne and termy armour stopped it, god knows why I thought you could infiltrate a DP then, im sure I did it and saw it done quite often lol.
Because you could have a DP without daemonic stature. As long as you had a small-ish model for your DP, it was perfectly possible to infiltrate it.
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

 Kirasu wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
Just one aspect.
In an RTT, I played a Chaos army with 2 Lieutenants on bikes, 5x6 Daemonettes, 6 Daemonettes on Steeds, 1 Defiler, and 3 Obliterators.
Each Lieutenant had 9 minor psychic powers. I needed to roll on a table to get Siren so that the Lieutenants could not be shot or charged.
The games went all the same. The Lieutenants turbo boosted forward in turn 1. In turn 2, the Daemonettes were summond and in turn 3 or 4 the game was basically over.
This happened to my friends and ETC players Fritz (with Nids) and J. (with Iron Warriors).
I won the tournament clearly but the other players wanted to kill me at the start of the event.
I never played this list again. But its legendary. Each time I met one of the participants later on, we talked about this tourney.


Yup, it was all Siren power and rending. People tend to blame an entire codex for 2 bad rules. Otherwise the codex was awesome and fun to play with (much more so than current books).

The daemons were able to charge after summoning them.

The most played army in this codex has been the Iron Warriors with 3x3 Obliterators.

Moreover, Rhino rush has been popular. A unit has been able to charge out a Rhino even if the Rhino has moved in the moving phase.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




The Chaos codex had a lot of very powerful units and abilities, but you had to pay for it. Daemon Princes were extremely powerful and resilient, but could be instagibbed by a str.10 weapon unless you paid 35 points for instant death immunity. Bloodletters (which were 26 points a piece, not 20) were powerful, but expensive. You could load up squads with veteran skills and equipment, but the costs add up quickly. People liked the book because it gave so many options for customization. There were a few things that were abused like Iron Warriors and siren princes, but the codex overall was very flavorful.

No, cultist champions could not take out a terminator squad. They were limited to 10 points of wargear which would get you a power weapon and thats about it.

You could take all the vehicle upgrades like daemonic possession, mutated hull, and parasitic possession, but those upgrades were 70 points total for a predator.

It was really easy to go overboard with the upgrades and options. I remember playing a world eaters army where each one of my Khorne Beserker champions cost about 80 points. They could kill just about anything, but it's still a lot to pay for a T4 W1 3+ Sv model. Yes he would have a squad to soak hits for him, but those guys weren't that cheap either. (23 pts a piece with furious charge and khornate chainaxes) The most effective lists usually were more stingy with upgrades (outside of decking out a badass DP) or were iron warriors who would just shoot you off the table.

   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

 wuestenfux wrote:
 Kirasu wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
Just one aspect.
In an RTT, I played a Chaos army with 2 Lieutenants on bikes, 5x6 Daemonettes, 6 Daemonettes on Steeds, 1 Defiler, and 3 Obliterators.
Each Lieutenant had 9 minor psychic powers. I needed to roll on a table to get Siren so that the Lieutenants could not be shot or charged.
The games went all the same. The Lieutenants turbo boosted forward in turn 1. In turn 2, the Daemonettes were summond and in turn 3 or 4 the game was basically over.
This happened to my friends and ETC players Fritz (with Nids) and J. (with Iron Warriors).
I won the tournament clearly but the other players wanted to kill me at the start of the event.
I never played this list again. But its legendary. Each time I met one of the participants later on, we talked about this tourney.


Yup, it was all Siren power and rending. People tend to blame an entire codex for 2 bad rules. Otherwise the codex was awesome and fun to play with (much more so than current books).

The daemons were able to charge after summoning them.

The most played army in this codex has been the Iron Warriors with 3x3 Obliterators.

Moreover, Rhino rush has been popular. A unit has been able to charge out a Rhino even if the Rhino has moved in the moving phase.


Iron Warriors were not the most played army at all, not even by a long shot, sure at tourneys, but who cares about them.

we had 6 chaos players, including me, and not a single one of the armies was the same, I played Night Lords and had a tone of raptors, which were actually good back then, chaos lord with a jump pack (deamonic flight) and lightning claws, my infantry had infiltrate veteran skill and all I ran was basic infantry and raptors.
   
Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






Raptors were actually scary, and weren't just "Spikey Assault Marines" either.

Also has one of the coolest models. Really miffed that they didn't choose to convert those to plastic and instead went with the heresy-era back turbines.

Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!


Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





One thing from 3.5 I haven't seen yet was hiding your demon prince in an aspiring champion.

Before game you would secretly mark where demon prince was, and sometime during game...rippp Surprise! A demon prince replaces your aspiring champion.

How bout the war hound? The chaos Lord could take a war hound as equipment. You basically got a free extra wound cause everyone killed the dog when Lord got his first wound.

Demons were summoned near standards. I'd give a standard to my khorne bikers and drive right into the middle of opponents army and start summoning demons. Flesh Hounds had a 12" charge back then cause they were considered Calvary.

Collar of khorne sucked up magic.

That spell that turned characters into a spawn.

Golden Age of Chaos. The Age of Attitude.







 
   
Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






You couldn't hide a daemon prince in your champion. That was the Greater Daemon Summoning. DPs and Greater Daemons were vastly different because the latter had set equipment and could not be customized to the degree Daemon Princes were (and thus lost out on a lot of the fun toys).

Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!


Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Formosa wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
 Kirasu wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
Just one aspect.
In an RTT, I played a Chaos army with 2 Lieutenants on bikes, 5x6 Daemonettes, 6 Daemonettes on Steeds, 1 Defiler, and 3 Obliterators.
Each Lieutenant had 9 minor psychic powers. I needed to roll on a table to get Siren so that the Lieutenants could not be shot or charged.
The games went all the same. The Lieutenants turbo boosted forward in turn 1. In turn 2, the Daemonettes were summond and in turn 3 or 4 the game was basically over.
This happened to my friends and ETC players Fritz (with Nids) and J. (with Iron Warriors).
I won the tournament clearly but the other players wanted to kill me at the start of the event.
I never played this list again. But its legendary. Each time I met one of the participants later on, we talked about this tourney.


Yup, it was all Siren power and rending. People tend to blame an entire codex for 2 bad rules. Otherwise the codex was awesome and fun to play with (much more so than current books).

The daemons were able to charge after summoning them.

The most played army in this codex has been the Iron Warriors with 3x3 Obliterators.

Moreover, Rhino rush has been popular. A unit has been able to charge out a Rhino even if the Rhino has moved in the moving phase.


Iron Warriors were not the most played army at all, not even by a long shot, sure at tourneys, but who cares about them.

we had 6 chaos players, including me, and not a single one of the armies was the same, I played Night Lords and had a tone of raptors, which were actually good back then, chaos lord with a jump pack (deamonic flight) and lightning claws, my infantry had infiltrate veteran skill and all I ran was basic infantry and raptors.


In my store during that time, there was one IW player (believe it or not, he was in it for the fluff, and had been an IW fanboy since before the 3.5 release), virtually everybody else was Emperor's Children. There was the occasional Khornate player (I dabbled in World Eaters and I played a few times against a non-WE Khorne list).
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

nobody wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
 Kirasu wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
Just one aspect.
In an RTT, I played a Chaos army with 2 Lieutenants on bikes, 5x6 Daemonettes, 6 Daemonettes on Steeds, 1 Defiler, and 3 Obliterators.
Each Lieutenant had 9 minor psychic powers. I needed to roll on a table to get Siren so that the Lieutenants could not be shot or charged.
The games went all the same. The Lieutenants turbo boosted forward in turn 1. In turn 2, the Daemonettes were summond and in turn 3 or 4 the game was basically over.
This happened to my friends and ETC players Fritz (with Nids) and J. (with Iron Warriors).
I won the tournament clearly but the other players wanted to kill me at the start of the event.
I never played this list again. But its legendary. Each time I met one of the participants later on, we talked about this tourney.


Yup, it was all Siren power and rending. People tend to blame an entire codex for 2 bad rules. Otherwise the codex was awesome and fun to play with (much more so than current books).

The daemons were able to charge after summoning them.

The most played army in this codex has been the Iron Warriors with 3x3 Obliterators.

Moreover, Rhino rush has been popular. A unit has been able to charge out a Rhino even if the Rhino has moved in the moving phase.


Iron Warriors were not the most played army at all, not even by a long shot, sure at tourneys, but who cares about them.

we had 6 chaos players, including me, and not a single one of the armies was the same, I played Night Lords and had a tone of raptors, which were actually good back then, chaos lord with a jump pack (deamonic flight) and lightning claws, my infantry had infiltrate veteran skill and all I ran was basic infantry and raptors.


In my store during that time, there was one IW player (believe it or not, he was in it for the fluff, and had been an IW fanboy since before the 3.5 release), virtually everybody else was Emperor's Children. There was the occasional Khornate player (I dabbled in World Eaters and I played a few times against a non-WE Khorne list).


That pretty much gels with what I saw on forums (ha GW forums!) and other clubs too, so many Emperors Children everywhere.

Something people need to also remember about that book, it was the age of conversions, Chaos actually had a tangible reason to convert those models, rather than the marines -1 we get now and have had since, Chaos should have always been marines +1, live space wolves lol.
   
Made in us
Martial Arts Fiday






Nashville, TN

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
 nurgle5 wrote:
With all the talk about infiltrating units, I do feel that it's worth noting that infiltrate worked differently in 3rd ed., what it did was scenario dependent and you couldn't use it in some of them.

Some perceptions of the 3.5 chaos book were probably coloured by the fact that it was a very options-dense book in an edition where codices were quite sparse. Also army composition bonuses/trade-offs, such as getting free cult marine champions in exchange for certain unit/wargear restrictions, weren't as common. It was difficult for some CSM players to keep track of all their wargear and special rules, imagine what was like for their poor opponents!


That actually reminds me of another thing; Deepstrike were dependent on the scenario as well, but Daemon Summoning didn't. This meant that Daemons were one of the few really reliable DS units you could have at the time (not at all helped by the fact that they didn't scatter when near an Icon and could still charge out of DS).


They could only be summoned through the use of icons. If all of the icons got killed all those 26pt. Letters were dead as well.

Seriously, most of the hate for the 3.5 book came from three sources: misremembered rules, misplayed rules, or Iron Wariors.

Siren was terrible but cost 10pts per roll on a chart and a roll of a 1 on the chart was no useable power. The others weren't too hot either in comparison to Siren. So most people spent 60+ pts. On it to almost guarantee getting Siren. Although one game I played against a guy that did that and he managed to roll enough 1s and no 6 (which was Siren) to not get it lol. Also, with Demon princes having abilities to get into cc very quickly and reliably, Siren wasn't that big of a deal since it only worked while the model wasn't in b2b.



"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"

-Nobody Ever

Proverbs 18:2

"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.

 warboss wrote:

GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up.


Albatross wrote:I think SlaveToDorkness just became my new hero.

EmilCrane wrote:Finecast is the new Matt Ward.

Don't mess with the Blade and Bolter! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Formosa wrote:
nobody wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
 Kirasu wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
Just one aspect.
In an RTT, I played a Chaos army with 2 Lieutenants on bikes, 5x6 Daemonettes, 6 Daemonettes on Steeds, 1 Defiler, and 3 Obliterators.
Each Lieutenant had 9 minor psychic powers. I needed to roll on a table to get Siren so that the Lieutenants could not be shot or charged.
The games went all the same. The Lieutenants turbo boosted forward in turn 1. In turn 2, the Daemonettes were summond and in turn 3 or 4 the game was basically over.
This happened to my friends and ETC players Fritz (with Nids) and J. (with Iron Warriors).
I won the tournament clearly but the other players wanted to kill me at the start of the event.
I never played this list again. But its legendary. Each time I met one of the participants later on, we talked about this tourney.


Yup, it was all Siren power and rending. People tend to blame an entire codex for 2 bad rules. Otherwise the codex was awesome and fun to play with (much more so than current books).

The daemons were able to charge after summoning them.

The most played army in this codex has been the Iron Warriors with 3x3 Obliterators.

Moreover, Rhino rush has been popular. A unit has been able to charge out a Rhino even if the Rhino has moved in the moving phase.


Iron Warriors were not the most played army at all, not even by a long shot, sure at tourneys, but who cares about them.

we had 6 chaos players, including me, and not a single one of the armies was the same, I played Night Lords and had a tone of raptors, which were actually good back then, chaos lord with a jump pack (deamonic flight) and lightning claws, my infantry had infiltrate veteran skill and all I ran was basic infantry and raptors.


In my store during that time, there was one IW player (believe it or not, he was in it for the fluff, and had been an IW fanboy since before the 3.5 release), virtually everybody else was Emperor's Children. There was the occasional Khornate player (I dabbled in World Eaters and I played a few times against a non-WE Khorne list).


That pretty much gels with what I saw on forums (ha GW forums!) and other clubs too, so many Emperors Children everywhere.

Something people need to also remember about that book, it was the age of conversions, Chaos actually had a tangible reason to convert those models, rather than the marines -1 we get now and have had since, Chaos should have always been marines +1, live space wolves lol.


No lie, we had a guy in the store who sculpted his own daemon prince(ss) out of green stuff, and it was damn well done.


Siren was terrible but cost 10pts per roll on a chart and a roll of a 1 on the chart was no useable power. The others weren't too hot either in comparison to Siren. So most people spent 60+ pts. On it to almost guarantee getting Siren. Although one game I played against a guy that did that and he managed to roll enough 1s and no 6 (which was Siren) to not get it lol. Also, with Demon princes having abilities to get into cc very quickly and reliably, Siren wasn't that big of a deal since it only worked while the model wasn't in b2b.


The siren prince didn't run into h2h, it (usually on a bike) cruised right up next to your lines and vomited out gobs of Daemonettes (and eventually Seekers) right on top of you through a personal icon.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




St. George, UT

When the codex came out it did allow for some potentially broken armies. Yes, they were made, but there were many others that were some of the fluffiest, best customized armies that the game has ever seen. Also any potentially overpowering that the codex offered was brought back in line when the other codexs were eventually released and the SM players had no right to bitch about anything once their 4th edition codex was released and the Chaos codex has forever been underpowered since then.


See pics of my Orks, Tau, Emperor's Children, Necrons, Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar here:


 
   
Made in us
Keeper of the Flame





Monticello, IN

What Chaos 3.5 did was give Chaos literally everything. Remember when Chaos didn't get Ordinance? That was a thing. Well, here's the Defiler! It has a battle cannon on it and fights better in H2H than a Dreadnought. You see that thin layer of brass on those daemons? 3+ armor, giving them 3+, 5++ with reliable deep strike that allows for charging into close combat. What's that, you say? Icons needed to be there to summon? Kill all the Icons and kill all the daemons? Here's three marked Khorne bike units. Good luck killing all that.

That's before addressing the whole concept of Veteran Skills. As soon as Tyranids appeared with the Mutable Genus, I lamented that it was going to start an arms race. It did, but it stopped fairly soon compared to what it could have been.

Part of the charm of 3rd was that if you looked across the board at an army, you could reasonable tell what everything did so you could prioritize fire. Mutable Genus sort of kneecapped that, but didn't kill it. Guard, Chaos, and then the inevitable SM release did indeed kill it.

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Denison, Iowa

I played with, and against, the 3.5 Chaos codex. Here is what I found a little over powered:

1. Free Aspiring champion upgrades. If you took the right number of models in a unit the Champion was free.

2. Many of the "downsides" of the Legion rules were things that didn't bother the players of those legions. It really wasn't that big of a deal killer.

3. Daemon Princes did everything you wanted them to do for too low of a price. My favorite combo included Mark of Khorne, daemonic mutation, Daemonic Flight, two close combat weapons, spikey bits, master crafting, and deamonic stature. it was a 155 point flying, 12 inch moving, 8 attacks on the charge at Strength 6 beast.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





It wasn't really, the main feature that people are and have always been upset about were the options it gave. It made it difficult to know what you were facing although some things were powerful in the rules at the time (Defilers were horribly powerful with the 3rd Ed hull down/glancing hit rules). IMO though, 3rd Ed was the last good edition until 8th and the jury is still out in my mind as to whether 8th is better.


That codex should be somewhat venerated though as it brought a lot into the game that didn't exist before (Furious Charge and Feel No Pain are sterling examples which, ironically, Chaos lost a lot of access to after that Codex). A lot of it fit very well thematically into what CSM should be, these 10,000 year old bitter warriors with corrupt versions of chapter tactics. Where the Imperium has its improved technology pushing it on, Chaos had the warp and this Codex made that distinction wonderfully. I also remember the uniqueness it encouraged (a lot of GW's material back then encouraged conversions etc, hell, they used to have a competition for bits boxes in WD), a direct contrast to the monopose, copy and paste armies around today.

The sad thing is that rather than take a step back, the codex should have been a model to base other codexs on in order to create a far more flavorsome game (it was adapted to a degree and again, ironically, for most armies aside from Chaos). Chaos had its upgrades and variety that allowed some cheap combinations, the Imperium get their over-access to genuinely hard things (their abundance of 3++ saves even in 8th ed is ridiculous), the Eldar had their speed and psychic trickery and on and on. Instead people whined and the flavour died, following Andy Chambers out the door with other cool things like Vehicle Design Rules, Chapter Approved, Inquisitor and on and on... it was the opposite of 8th ed's stripped down, easy to play mode and i'm a little sad wondering what could have been.

/nostalgic rant

- 10,000 pts CSM  
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

It was really a great time to play the 3.5 ed CSM codex. The 3rd ed was not bad either.
Today, I'm really sad that we have a gimmick rule set.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




 Phydox wrote:


How bout the war hound? The chaos Lord could take a war hound as equipment. You basically got a free extra wound cause everyone killed the dog when Lord got his first wound.


You could take up to 4. Which went into the true realm of silliness when you could have a unit of 20 TS Chosen, all with 4 hounds, 1 Spawn and 3 Thralls each making a single unit 180 models strong.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: