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What they should do is change the base command point level by the warlord's faction. To compensate for some factions being able to fill out detachments easier and hoard command points.

Elite factions should get high base command points while less elite factions should have fewer base command points.

So a faction like Grey Knights would get 5 command points base, while Imperial Guard would get 2.

 Grey Templar wrote:
What they should do is change the base command point level by the warlord's faction. To compensate for some factions being able to fill out detachments easier and hoard command points.

Elite factions should get high base command points while less elite factions should have fewer base command points.

So a faction like Grey Knights would get 5 command points base, while Imperial Guard would get 2.

Soup ruins this though.

You saw in the last major tourney how "Grey Knights" did well because they had a 500 point Grey Knight detachment and a boatload of AM.

A cap of 10 is the right way to go. And, going second gives you a +3 to a max of 13.

 Stormonu wrote:
I could get behind a cap of 10 (or 8).

However, I don't think there should be ANY ability that allows CPs to be returned to a player after they are used. They're meant to be a limited resource, based on army size, and shouldn't be just free extra points - that's back into the bad design paradigm of 7E's formations.

Mmm with the ultramarines warlord trait you get it refunded on a 5+. In one game using about 8 of my 9 I got 1 back. So a 5+ is alright in my opinion but a 4+ is a bit much

I want to second and third whats been said before, there should be a limit to how you generate CPs based on how your army composition is. An army that is solely one chapter/regiment/forgeworld should get a nice bonus to their CPs. Id say that if you are ever taking detachments from another army or even a different subfaction/regiment you should lose the automatic +3 CPs. That way the power of allies is curbed and the soupiness must be played with their powers alone. Its easy to fluff justify as well since the mono sub faction army is going to work much better and more efficiently with team mates who know their tactics and capabilities.

Alternatively!!!!, id like to see a 1CP penalty to use stratagems that do not belong to your Warlords subfaction, in fact.....I think that may be our perfect solution! I.e. I have ultramarines and bobby G as warlord but I also have a detachment of infiltrating Stygies units for some reason, Im now paying 2 CP apiece to get those units in. Now thats a fair compromise as far as I can tell

Personally, I would get rid of most Stratagems, let CP be used for sequence-breaking an altactivation game, but most importantly, I would make CP a "turn-by-turn" resource rather than a single non-replenishing pool. Currently as written, pure IGOUGO, along with other 8e changes mean that if you have units now, you want to front-load spending your CP for the most damage buffs possible: What point is there to holding onto the majority of your CP if you don't have units that can use them?

What about CP being independent of what you field and how you do it? For example, both players could say a number (< X) and the mean of that number is the number of CP that each player may spend.

That is probably fair, detachments would not lose their entire purpose (though people might play less troops, but that could be countered by other means, maybe different detachments must belong to different sub factions).

 Nazrak wrote:
Aye, it seems the easiest solution would be some sort of mechanism to stop Guard filling slots for vastly less cost than everyone else. Some sort of platoon structure, for example…

Now, now. No crazy talk. That's unheard of.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
Aye, it seems the easiest solution would be some sort of mechanism to stop Guard filling slots for vastly less cost than everyone else. Some sort of platoon structure, for example…

Now, now. No crazy talk. That's unheard of.

Id agree with you then not agree with you on that one (as an old timey guard player I know platoons well) because then it becomes scion town for points. I would not be opposed to a "you must take 1 platoon commander for every X infantry squads", or "conscripts cannot be take as troops choices unless you have X infantry squads" so its a little less restrictive than the old platoon where there was a bare minimum to even fill a single troop slot, so instead I would just take veterans.

I like to think about what guard can do with their command points is still balanced by the fact that their average unit is terrible, so 1cp on a guard squad is not equal to 1 cp spent on a space marine. Armies like Admech really get shafted on CPs because of their lack of variety in elite and fast attack slots.

Make taking named characters cost some points

its pretty BS for some of us imperials that dont have access to a named chapter master.

also something needs to be done with ultra smurfs oozing out points for days.

Just so people remember, there is technically a hardcap on CP in Matched play. Using suggested restrictions you can only ever get 30CP

 Desubot wrote:
Make taking named characters cost some points

its pretty BS for some of us imperials that dont have access to a named chapter master.

also something needs to be done with ultra smurfs oozing out points for days.

...What do you mean? Taking named characters does cost points. It costs the difference between the named character and the equivalent generic character.

Are we really seeing CPs that unbalancing? This thread feels in part like another complaint about the AM codex.

 Desubot wrote:
Make taking named characters cost some points

its pretty BS for some of us imperials that dont have access to a named chapter master.

also something needs to be done with ultra smurfs oozing out points for days.

Or they keep the Chapter Master strategem and not make it 3 frickin Command Points. 1 is perfectly reasonable and I'd maybe even consider it at 2. 3 is ridiculous though.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
What they should do is change the base command point level by the warlord's faction. To compensate for some factions being able to fill out detachments easier and hoard command points.

Elite factions should get high base command points while less elite factions should have fewer base command points.

So a faction like Grey Knights would get 5 command points base, while Imperial Guard would get 2.

Soup ruins this though.

You saw in the last major tourney how "Grey Knights" did well because they had a 500 point Grey Knight detachment and a boatload of AM.

A cap of 10 is the right way to go. And, going second gives you a +3 to a max of 13.

Easy fix is to make each allied detachment cost you 2 command points.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Make taking named characters cost some points

its pretty BS for some of us imperials that dont have access to a named chapter master.

also something needs to be done with ultra smurfs oozing out points for days.

...What do you mean? Taking named characters does cost points. It costs the difference between the named character and the equivalent generic character.

Oh sorry i ran off with that one

im talking about being able to take chapter masters. named ones cost only slightly more than a normal captain but often come with big bonuses on top of not costing any CP for it

If you want to take a CM and generally its really good to do so, it puts you at often half or more CP behind your opponent.

I figure it should only be fair to make taking a named chapter master should cost points.

or i guess reducing the 3 cp cost for the upgrade. but even costin 1 still doesnt change that its just more extra bonuses for the characters (not always but eh)

Kdash wrote:
CP themselves currently aren't the problem, it's just that - at this stage - Guard can get the most and do the most with them. It won't seem so obnoxious once other horde armies start getting all their stratagems. For example, a Tyranid army can get 12+ CP relatively easy, but they only have 3 basic stratagems to use them on (2 if you consider auto pass morale is useless because of synapse)

If by 'easy' you mean pulling your teeth out to reach 12CP, then yes, Tyranids can easily have 12 CP.

 N.I.B. wrote:

Kdash wrote:
CP themselves currently aren't the problem, it's just that - at this stage - Guard can get the most and do the most with them. It won't seem so obnoxious once other horde armies start getting all their stratagems. For example, a Tyranid army can get 12+ CP relatively easy, but they only have 3 basic stratagems to use them on (2 if you consider auto pass morale is useless because of synapse)

If by 'easy' you mean pulling your teeth out to reach 12CP, then yes, Tyranids can easily have 12 CP.

How many points is a basic, basic, Tyranid brigade detachment?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 generalchaos34 wrote:


Alternatively!!!!, id like to see a 1CP penalty to use stratagems that do not belong to your Warlords subfaction, in fact.....I think that may be our perfect solution! I.e. I have ultramarines and bobby G as warlord but I also have a detachment of infiltrating Stygies units for some reason, Im now paying 2 CP apiece to get those units in. Now thats a fair compromise as far as I can tell

But, then you are affectively making that Stygies battalion’s 3cp worthless and pointless. A better solution would be restricting the CP use to each detachment, with the only ones being able to be used army wide is the 3 base CP. (so, if you take Brigade and a Spearhead, the units in the Spearhead can only use the CP gained from the detachment and the battleforged bonus). This of course will mean more book keeping though.

 Desubot wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Make taking named characters cost some points

its pretty BS for some of us imperials that dont have access to a named chapter master.

also something needs to be done with ultra smurfs oozing out points for days.

...What do you mean? Taking named characters does cost points. It costs the difference between the named character and the equivalent generic character.

Oh sorry i ran off with that one

im talking about being able to take chapter masters. named ones cost only slightly more than a normal captain but often come with big bonuses on top of not costing any CP for it

If you want to take a CM and generally its really good to do so, it puts you at often half or more CP behind your opponent.

I figure it should only be fair to make taking a named chapter master should cost points.

or i guess reducing the 3 cp cost for the upgrade. but even costin 1 still doesnt change that its just more extra bonuses for the characters (not always but eh)

Why should taking a Chapter Master cost you Command Points?

Because the commander is such a secret tactical genius, he's actually a Chapter Master in Disguise, but waiting for the dramatic moment to reveal this fact takes away from the opportunity to actually order his troops to be secretly carrying Tremor Shells.

What exactly *are* Command Points supposed to represent? Aubuthority to bug the quartermaster? Plot Armor/Phlebtonium? Time spent dialing through the Battle Barge's call robot? ("We cannot complete your request for Orbital Bombardment because all our Chapter Serfs are assisting other callers. Please remain om the line and someone will be with you." And then it plays Sade)

TangoTwoBravo wrote:


Why should taking a Chapter Master cost you Command Points?

Because it does for at least half of the vanilla marines.

If anything, Chapter Master type units should give you extra command points.

I don't understand why you get a CP bonus for bringing multiple detachments. Multiple detachments are already have an insane incentive. Multiple detachments allow for soup lists, which are very powerful when combining stratagems, spells, and the best individual models of multiple factions. Right now there is a single playstyle that is basically triple dipping on bonuses (soup lists with multiple detachments). There needs to be some sort of incentive for single detachment armies if they want them to remain playable.

My thoughtless suggestion.: CP is determined by your best CP detachment, not the sum of them. Provide a bonus 3 CP if you run only 1 detachment.

 vaklor4 wrote:
Actually, maybe 12 would be better?

I say 12 because battle forged gives 3, and a Brigade gives 9. That way, taking the biggest detachment and use a battleforged Brigade at that, gives you the maximum cap.

Otherwise, nobody would ever take a battleforged brigade, there would be absolutely no point.

This is a great idea

 Desubot wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:


Why should taking a Chapter Master cost you Command Points?

Because it does for at least half of the vanilla marines.

Taking a "vanilla" commander does not cost Command Points: its an opportunity cost I suppose but not a direct cost or a penalty. Chapter Masters with CP bonuses are just that. The cost of the CP is in the points cost of the model.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:


Why should taking a Chapter Master cost you Command Points?

Because it does for at least half of the vanilla marines.

Taking a "vanilla" commander does not cost Command Points: its an opportunity cost I suppose but not a direct cost or a penalty. Chapter Masters with CP bonuses are just that. The cost of the CP is in the points cost of the model.

Except when you take a named one which doesn't cost command points.

And yeah they often cost more than a normal chapter master but they ALSO come with really big bonuses on top of chapter master powers.

 xeen wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Actually, maybe 12 would be better?

I say 12 because battle forged gives 3, and a Brigade gives 9. That way, taking the biggest detachment and use a battleforged Brigade at that, gives you the maximum cap.

Otherwise, nobody would ever take a battleforged brigade, there would be absolutely no point.

This is a great idea

I really like this as well. A cap of 12 with a hard limit of never being able to go over it for any reason (trait CP regen for example)

 Desubot wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:


Why should taking a Chapter Master cost you Command Points?

Because it does for at least half of the vanilla marines.

Taking a "vanilla" commander does not cost Command Points: its an opportunity cost I suppose but not a direct cost or a penalty. Chapter Masters with CP bonuses are just that. The cost of the CP is in the points cost of the model.

Except when you take a named one which doesn't cost command points.

And yeah they often cost more than a normal chapter master but they ALSO come with really big bonuses on top of chapter master powers.

I am still confused - what do you mean by "doesn't cost command points?" Which Space Marine character, outside of one taken as an Auxiliary Support Detachment, subtracts or costs CPs?

If you are saying that those Characters should cost more points/power levels because of their added CPs then I understand your argument without necessarily agreeing with it.

Cheers,

There are two ways to get a chapter master:
Take a named character chapter master if your chapter has one (and only a few do - not even all of the original legions)
Take a captain and pay 3cp to upgrade him to chapter master.

One idea would be:

No command points (except negatives) generated outside of your primary detachment.

-1(Or possibly the equivalent positive number?) point per detachment that isn't the same faction as your primary detachment.

Then set a basic default value per faction.


As an aside I actually don't dislike the regenerate CP traits per se. Ultramarines having it makes sense because the army structure predetermines that they aren't going to have a massive amount of detachments to begin with. This minimises the abuse (it also helps they are a well balanced faction). Guard clearly shouldn't be able to do it because they already have a massive advantage in CPs.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
There are two ways to get a chapter master:
Take a named character chapter master if your chapter has one (and only a few do - not even all of the original legions)
Take a captain and pay 3cp to upgrade him to chapter master.

Thank you. i assumed people knew how this worked.

im just cheesed as a imp fist player as our only named character is lysander who is only a captain.

and i feel really bad for the iron hands players.