Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

ParadoxGaming wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
The fact that 'Parade Drill' mentions Overwatch is specific enough to override the usual rules. In order for Overwatch to override 'Parade Drill' it would have to specifically mention 'Parade Drill' in its rule.

Wat!? That last bit is just insane... you want the core rules to mention every single special rule they interact with >.<

Core rules > Special rules.

Its pretty clear that they get +1 to hit on overwatch. Overwatch clearly says that modifiers dont count as far as scoring hits. Therefore the +1 is only good for overheating plasma or something similar. Thats just how its written and how the rules work.

"it says overwatch so I dont have to follow the rules" is not a valid defense for anything.

They have clear rules for things that break this and they all specifically say they break it, they dont just mention overwatch and then let you pick what rules to follow...

Is why is a special rule 'special'? It's 'special' because it takes precedence over the common core rules that apply to everyone.

You also don't understand specific versus general. Even though Overwatch says "...a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of... any modifiers...", the wording of Parade Drill makes it a specific exception to Overwatch by specifically mentioning Overwatch in the rule. You're adding qualifiers to what Parade Drill applies to which simply do not exist whereas I'm following the rule as written.

Once again, when Parade Drill says "... you can add 1 to hit rolls made for models in that unit when firing Overwatch" then that is exactly what I can do. It is a clear rule. You're trying your best to add wording to it to confuse the matter. It does not have any restrictions whatsoever on what the 1 added to the hit rolls counts for. It counts for everything, including make the roll of a 5 a successful hit.

Funnily enough, specific versus general is not mentioned in the 8E rulebook.

I'd say this-as written, the straight RAW of Parade Drill... It doesn't work as intended. RAI is clear-you hit on a 5+ in Overwatch. RAW, it does not work that way.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Funnily enough, specific versus general is not mentioned in the 8E rulebook.

It never needed to be mentioned in the first place. It was just a reminder of how rules work. And yes, the RAW does allow you to hit on a 5+.

 Ghaz wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Funnily enough, specific versus general is not mentioned in the 8E rulebook.

It never needed to be mentioned in the first place. It was just a reminder of how rules work. And yes, the RAW does allow you to hit on a 5+.

No, it doesn't.

Parade Drill adds +1 to hit when overwatching. Overwatch tells you to ignore modifiers for the purpose of hitting. Parade Drill does NOT provide an exception to that.

I agree, RAI is perfectly clear, and I wouldn't have someone hit on a 6 only when using this, I'd have them hit on 5+. But GW done borked it. The RAW does not match the RAI.

Again, what 'Parade Drill says:

... you can add 1 to hit rolls made for models in that unit when firing Overwatch.

And what you're saying 'Parade Drill' says:

... you can add 1 to hit rolls made for models in that unit when firing Overwatch but still only sucessfully hits the model on the roll of a 6.

Notice the part in yellow that you're adding is not present in the actual rule. 'Parade Drill' makes no restrictions on what the +1 to the to hit roll can be used for. None whatsoever, and the Overwatch rule does not specifically override 'Parade Drill'.

Nor does Parade Drill override Overwatch.

The weird thing is, GW got it right with other rules. Destroyer Hive, Guardians (or was it Dire Avengers? The Eldar foot troop) say they hit on 5s or 6s in Overwatch, meaning that they have a specific exception to the only hit on 6s rule. Parade Drill does not.

Ghaz, is it really that hard to believe that GW done goofed? They're not exactly known for their tight, concise, and impeccable rules.

ParadoxGaming wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
The fact that 'Parade Drill' mentions Overwatch is specific enough to override the usual rules. In order for Overwatch to override 'Parade Drill' it would have to specifically mention 'Parade Drill' in its rule.

Wat!? That last bit is just insane... you want the core rules to mention every single special rule they interact with >.<

Core rules > Special rules.

Its pretty clear that they get +1 to hit on overwatch. Overwatch clearly says that modifiers dont count as far as scoring hits. Therefore the +1 is only good for overheating plasma or something similar. Thats just how its written and how the rules work.

"it says overwatch so I dont have to follow the rules" is not a valid defense for anything.

They have clear rules for things that break this and they all specifically say they break it, they dont just mention overwatch and then let you pick what rules to follow...

Advanced rules > Core rules.

The advanced rule here states add +1 to the roll for Overwatch, calling out Overwatch specifically. By saying you still apply the "no modifiers count" rule for Overwatch, you are not adding +1 to the roll. It' doesn't say add +1 to the roll for things other than scoring hits, it states add +1. Period. That means it's plus one for everything.

Karandras has a BS of 2+.

He gets +1 to hit hit rolls against units in cover.

The core rules say that a hit roll of 1 is always a miss, regardless of modifiers.

So Karandras shoots a Tactical Marine in cover. He rolls a 1 on one of his dice. Is it a hit?

I say it isn't, because of the core rules. And if it isn't, Mordians shouldn't hit on a 5+ RAW in overwatch either.

I would totally let a Mordian player overwatch at 5+ against me, but the wording needs fixing.

 Cream Tea wrote:
Karandras has a BS of 2+.

He gets +1 to hit hit rolls against units in cover.

The core rules say that a hit roll of 1 is always a miss, regardless of modifiers.

So Karandras shoots a Tactical Marine in cover. He rolls a 1 on one of his dice. Is it a hit?

I say it isn't, because of the core rules. And if it isn't, Mordians shouldn't hit on a 5+ RAW in overwatch either.

I would totally let a Mordian player overwatch at 5+ against me, but the wording needs fixing.

Your example doesn't work because you're missing a specific exception to the rule that a one always fails. 'Parade Drill' has that specific exception to Overwatch.

 Ghaz wrote:

Your example doesn't work because you're missing a specific exception to the rule that a one always fails. 'Parade Drill' has that specific exception to Overwatch.

That's where we disagree, apparently. Parade Drill doesn't say that the modifier applies for the purposes of determining hits during Overwatch, it only says you get a modifier when firing Overwatch. Karandras can get a +1 modifier when firing Overwatch too.

It says modifiers apply (specifically +1 to hit). Your adding restrictions on when that modifier applies which are nowhere in the rules.

 Ghaz wrote:
It says modifiers apply (specifically +1 to hit). Your adding restrictions on when that modifier applies which are nowhere in the rules.

There are many rules that add +1 to hit. You ignore those rules when determining hits in overwatch. You're adding your own restrictions on when to ignore that rule.

Parade Drill implies an exception, that's not RAW.

Anyway, this is leading nowhere. We agree on how to play it, which is the most important thing. I'm out.

You do not ignore 'Parade Drill' in Overwatch because it specifically gives you the modifier when firing Overwatch.

 Cream Tea wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
It says modifiers apply (specifically +1 to hit). Your adding restrictions on when that modifier applies which are nowhere in the rules.

There are many rules that add +1 to hit. You ignore those rules when determining hits in overwatch. You're adding your own restrictions on when to ignore that rule.

Parade Drill implies an exception, that's not RAW.

Anyway, this is leading nowhere. We agree on how to play it, which is the most important thing. I'm out.

"Add +1 to your roll in Overwatch" is not an implication.

FAQ is out. Parade Drill was changed.

 JNAProductions wrote:
FAQ is out. Parade Drill was changed.

Glad they did the change. Whilst abundantly clear before this avoids any doubt.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
FAQ is out. Parade Drill was changed.

Glad they did the change. Whilst abundantly clear before this avoids any doubt.

I don't think the RAI was ever in doubt. RAW was borked, but no one (excepting the jerkiest of jerks or most RAW-abiding rules-hounds) would actually have you hit on 6s alone.

I'm glad, if a bit surprised, that they changed it. Good job, GW!

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
FAQ is out. Parade Drill was changed.

Glad they did the change. Whilst abundantly clear before this avoids any doubt.

Then why did they change it if it was "abundantly" clear?

RaW was borked, and they have fixed it. Good work for once out of GW.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
FAQ is out. Parade Drill was changed.

Glad they did the change. Whilst abundantly clear before this avoids any doubt.

Then why did they change it if it was "abundantly" clear?

RaW was borked, and they have fixed it. Good work for once out of GW.

They changed it because, and I quote, "RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy, "minimum" ranges don't work, Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll, the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit, Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields and the Mordian doctrine doesn't do very much."

I'm pulling your leg a bit (good natured-ly, so don't bite my head off!), but your sig is a good illustration of rules that work just fine unless you hold them to the standards of a legal document. That GW are patching and lawyer-proofing rules so quickly is fantastic.

(That they're nerfing things in FAQs or having to fix rules with forseeable broken applications/combos is less good, obvs)