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Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





I drop Mandrakes and charge a unit.

They shoot me and hit on 6s, They have -1 to hit due to my camo....Can they not hit or is 6+ the worst to hit. haha.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

From 'Overwatch', page 182 of the main rulebook (emphasis added):

Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in se
Swift Swooping Hawk





It's pretty clear when the Mandrakes are charging normal units - they still get hit on sixes.

However, what happens if Mandrakes are charging a Mordian unit base to base with each other? The Mordian doctrine says they can add 1 to their hit rolls when firing overwatch, but RAW that doesn't do a lot as modifiers don't matter.

If we assume Mordians hit on 5+ when overwatching, which is obviously the intention, would the Mandrakes' -1 modifier do anything?

I assume Dire Avengers wouldn't care, since they hit on 5+ when overwatching, it's not given as a modifier.

EDIT: Even RAW the Mordian doctrine does do something for overwatch shooting, just not a lot.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/17 03:44:13


Craftworld Sciatháin 4180 pts  
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Fun Fact: The Mordian doctrine RaW doesn't do MUCH due to the explicit "irrespective of [...] any modifiers." rule. Same for the IA Slaanesh RnH. They need to change it to say "Hit's on a 5+ in Overwatch" or change the overwatch rule to allow for exceptional modifiers.

It still prevents plasma from overheating (and other things that trigger on a specific result or result+) though, so it could be the intent of the rule to simply do that rather than make more overwatch hit, who knows! If it literally did nothing I would happily argue that the intent was clear and the rules sloppy, but because the rule in its current form DOES do something, nothing other than a special snowflake FAQ or hard errata to match the Dire Avenger rule (see below) will change my mind on this. :3

Another reason to play the rule as written is that GW already wrote an effect that does "work", and that's the Dire Avenger rule. The fact they use that rule for the Dire Avengers and a different rule for Mordians suggests there is a difference in intent and effect as well as RaW.

Assuming the Intent of hitting on a 5+, the mandrakes modifier shouldn't affect it when seeing if it hit (i.e. it'll still hit on a 5+) but will cancel out the bonus for determining if plasma overheats etc.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/10/17 02:37:50


 
   
Made in se
Swift Swooping Hawk





 BaconCatBug wrote:

Another reason to play the rule as written is that GW already wrote an effect that does "work", and that's the Dire Avenger rule.

There's even an Astra Militarum stratagem (Defensive Gunners) that lets an Astra Militarum vehicle unit hit on rolls of 5 or 6 explicitly, just like Dire Avengers.

If the intent of the Mordian doctrine is to prevent plasma from overheating, they haven't really done a good job with the wording. Was the intention that you should be able to stack doctrine and stratagem for 4+ hit overwatches?

Craftworld Sciatháin 4180 pts  
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

Rules as written, the Mordian 'Parade Drill' and Typhus 'Destroyer Hive' work just fine since they give a clear and explicit exception to the Overwatch rule.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in se
Swift Swooping Hawk





 Ghaz wrote:
Rules as written, the Mordian 'Parade Drill' and Typhus 'Destroyer Hive' work just fine since they give a clear and explicit exception to the Overwatch rule.

If the rules said you don't applied modifiers to hit rolls made during overwatch at all, I'd perhaps agree with you. That's not the case though, you only ignore modifiers when checking if shots hit, and I can see nothing in the Mordian doctrine negating that. As BaconCatBug wrote, it still does something, even if it's minor.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/17 03:05:44


Craftworld Sciatháin 4180 pts  
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

Except as noted, these rules specifically and unequivocally state that they work with Overwatch whereas Overwatch says nothing about 'Parade Drill' or 'The Destroyer Hive'. As such, their wording clearly gives them precedent.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Ghaz wrote:
Rules as written, the Mordian 'Parade Drill' and Typhus 'Destroyer Hive' work just fine since they give a clear and explicit exception to the Overwatch rule.
I disagree that the rule gives enough exception to the rule to work on the hit chance portion of the roll, since we have rules that do "work" and affecting the roll but not the hit chance does have an effect and possible intent.
   
Made in se
Swift Swooping Hawk





As said, the Dire Avenger rule and the Defensive Gunners stratagem do state an exception to the general overwatch rule.

The Mordian doctrine Parade Drill doesn't, because you can normally get modifiers to hit rolls even during overwatch, their effect is just limited.

I do believe the intent is clear, but that's not enough. Rules should be clear as written.

Craftworld Sciatháin 4180 pts  
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




The actual Overwatch rule only mentions modifiers in relation to 6's. So there is a case for suggesting a unit hitting on 5's would still have those 5's affected by the mandrakes - 1, but the 6's remain unaffected. You could also argue 2's overwatching with plasma would overheat.
Not sure what the intention is to be honest, I wouldn't want to be arguing it one way or another in a game.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

From 'Parade Drill':

... you can add 1 to hit rolls made for models in that unit when firing Overwatch.

And from Typhus' datasheet:

This weapon always hits on a 5+ (even when firing Overwatch), regardless of any modifiers.

By specifically mentioning Overwatch, it makes it an exception to the Overwatch rule.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

They're both pretty damn clear as to how they work, but for some people it's all about finding problems that don't exist and filling the internet with pages of ranting about them. Hey, people are free to spend their time how they wish...

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in se
Swift Swooping Hawk





 Ghaz wrote:
From 'Parade Drill':

... you can add 1 to hit rolls made for models in that unit when firing Overwatch.

And from Typhus' datasheet:

This weapon always hits on a 5+ (even when firing Overwatch), regardless of any modifiers.

By specifically mentioning Overwatch, it makes it an exception to the Overwatch rule.

Agreed about Typhus, that's a clear exception.

There's nothing about ignoring the usual overwatch rules in Parade Drill.

Craftworld Sciatháin 4180 pts  
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

The fact that 'Parade Drill' mentions Overwatch is specific enough to override the usual rules. In order for Overwatch to override 'Parade Drill' it would have to specifically mention 'Parade Drill' in its rule.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/17 17:07:57


'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Ghaz wrote:
The fact that 'Parade Drill' mentions Overwatch is specific enough to override the usual rules. In order for Overwatch to override 'Parade Drill' it would have to specifically mention 'Parade Drill' in its rule.
You're missing the forest for the trees here. No-one is saying you don't get the +1, that's totally correct. What the problem is is that +1 does NOT affect the chance to hit, you still only hit on a 6, you just get +1 for things that care about the result of the hit roll.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

No. Adding 1 to the hit roll makes a roll of a 5 into a 6 and DOES affect the chance to hit. 'Parade Drill' is a modifier that specifically applies to Overwatch.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Ghaz wrote:
No. Adding 1 to the hit roll makes a roll of a 5 into a 6 and DOES affect the chance to hit. 'Parade Drill' is a modifier that specifically applies to Overwatch.
No, it only says to add 1 to hit in overwatch, it says nothing about modifying the result.

If adding 1 to hit did literally nothing, I would agree with you, but it doesn't do nothing, it still has some effect, and there are multiple rules that DO "work" in making things hit on a 5+. I am afraid until we get word of god I am not going to be convinced this rule works the way people think it does.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Ghaz wrote:
No. Adding 1 to the hit roll makes a roll of a 5 into a 6 and DOES affect the chance to hit. 'Parade Drill' is a modifier that specifically applies to Overwatch.
No, it only says to add 1 to hit in overwatch, it says nothing about modifying the result.

If adding 1 to hit did literally nothing, I would agree with you, but it doesn't do nothing, it still has some effect, and there are multiple rules that DO "work" in making things hit on a 5+. I am afraid until we get word of god I am not going to be convinced this rule works the way people think it does.


It says to add one to the roll for Overwatch, therefore you add one to the roll for overwatch. It doesn't say to add one to the roll only for purposes of bonus effects/hazards, it says only to add one to the roll for Overwatch. Ghaz is right; the statement of adding one to the roll for Overwatch is specific enough that it overrides the normal Overwatch limitations. It also adds one to the roll for the ancillary effects'; if it only said that you hit on a 5+ in Overwatch, there wouldn't be a bonus to the ancillary effects. But, just because there's a benefit for ancillary effects doesn't mean it doesn't also apply to the roll to hit in Overwatch. Seeing as it specifies adding one to the roll, it covers both functions and overrides the limitation of not applying to the to hit roll.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Except the rule for overwatch explicitly states regardless of modifiers, which is why Dire Avengers et. al. have a rule that changes it to a 5+.

Why have two different rules if they have the same effect? Intent is not clear here.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Except the rule for overwatch explicitly states regardless of modifiers, which is why Dire Avengers et. al. have a rule that changes it to a 5+.

Why have two different rules if they have the same effect? Intent is not clear here.

And Overwatch doesn't state that there can't be exceptions to the rule, but the wording to have an exception must be very specific, i.e. it must mention Overwatch. 'Parade Drill' meets this requirement.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




I mean, I think the intent is very clear. They worded it in this way so that the stratagem and doctrine would stack. But, yeah, RAW all it does is help you not get hot when firing plasma on overwatch.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Except the rule for overwatch explicitly states regardless of modifiers, which is why Dire Avengers et. al. have a rule that changes it to a 5+.

Why have two different rules if they have the same effect? Intent is not clear here.


Intent is perfectly clear, unless being wilfully obtuse. The wording is different because reasons (hey, none of us wrote it) but it is clear.

Here's the WHC write-up:

Parade Drill adds some much-needed insurance to your units against getting charged, rewarding you for careful positioning of your army. From humble Conscripts to even the Baneblade, there are few units that don’t benefit from this rule.


Well I say, if that doesn't just go and confirm the (abundantly clear) intent...


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in se
Swift Swooping Hawk





Intent is clear, I agree, to some extent. The intent of having a different wording than the properly worded Defence Tactics on Dire Avengers isn't clear, however.

We really shouldn't have to rely on deciphering what GW imply in the rules, why are people fine with that? An extra "this modifier applies regardless of the usual overwatch rules" would have sufficed.

Edit: italics added

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/17 23:19:20


Craftworld Sciatháin 4180 pts  
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 Cream Tea wrote:
Intent is clear, I agree, to some extent. The intent of having a different wording than the properly worded Defence Tactics on Dire Avengers isn't clear, however.

We really shouldn't have to rely on deciphering what GW [i]imply[/] in the rules, why are people fine with that? An extra "this modifier applies regardless of the usual overwatch rules" would have sufficed.


Agree consistency would be nice, but we have to use what we have, and this is still clear (albeit inconsistent with similar rules elsewhere). Understanding and being able to use the rule as is doesn't mean anyone is fine with it or defending it - that's attaching a value judgement to a Rules assessment, and doesn't necessarily follow.

I would argue it's not implied, it's stated... just in language that's left room for some to try and RAW! RAW! twist, despite intent being clear as day.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/17 23:02:42


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in se
Swift Swooping Hawk





 JohnnyHell wrote:


Agree consistency would be nice, but we have to use what we have, and this is still clear (albeit inconsistent with similar rules elsewhere). Understanding and being able to use the rule as is doesn't mean anyone is fine with it or defending it - that's attaching a value judgement to a Rules assessment, and doesn't necessarily follow.

I would argue it's not implied, it's stated... just in language that's left room for some to try and RAW! RAW! twist, despite intent being clear as day.

So we agree about the intent being that the doctrine should mean Mordians can hit on a 5+ when overwatching.

We seem to place different degrees of importance on stringent rules.

What do you believe the intent of Parade Drill used in conjunction with the stratagem Defensive Gunners is? Because there, I'm not sure. 4+ overwatch? Is that why they chose different wordings for the two? Why not state that explicitly then, so there would be no confusion?

Craftworld Sciatháin 4180 pts  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Cream Tea wrote:
Intent is clear, I agree, to some extent. The intent of having a different wording than the properly worded Defence Tactics on Dire Avengers isn't clear, however.

We really shouldn't have to rely on deciphering what GW imply in the rules, why are people fine with that? An extra "this modifier applies regardless of the usual overwatch rules" would have sufficed.

Edit: italics added


You get the extra bonus to offset negative modifiers for ancillary effects (overcharged plasma, etc) that Parade drill applies to as well as the +1 to hit in Overwatch (letting you hit on a 5). That's why it doesn't use wording that you hit in overwatch on a 5+.

I agree with JohnnyHell that there's nothing implied, they flat out state that you get to use the modifier in Overwatch? Why? Because they say that you get a +1 to your roll in Overwatch. Saying it's not clear or that we have to decipher what is implied there seems to be missing the boat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Cream Tea wrote:
What do you believe the intent of Parade Drill used in conjunction with the stratagem Defensive Gunners is? Because there, I'm not sure. 4+ overwatch? Is that why they chose different wordings for the two? Why not state that explicitly then, so there would be no confusion?


I don't think you need to guess at intent. Just follow the instructions of both. One says you overwatch on a 5+, and the other says you get to add one to your roll for Overwatch. Therefore, as it stands not you add one to the roll, and if that is 5 or better then you hit during overwatch. If they have an intent for it to not work that way, they need to FAQ it to match what their intent is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/18 16:34:08


 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






The simple fact that we have MULTIPLE rules that have the structure of "When firing Overwatch, units hit on a roll on 5+, instead of only 6, irrespective of modifiers" suggests that the Mordian Trait must be intended to function differently due to the different wording. Otherwise why have different wording at all?

Off the top of my head: Dire Avengers, The Destroyer Hive DG Weapon, Agripinaa Forge World Trait.

It's just icing on the cake that RaW results in a different effect as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/18 18:33:48


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 BaconCatBug wrote:
The simple fact that we have MULTIPLE rules that have the structure of "When firing Overwatch, units hit on a roll on 5+, instead of only 6, irrespective of modifiers" suggests that the Mordian Trait must be intended to function differently due to the different wording. Otherwise why have different wording at all?

Off the top of my head: Dire Avengers, The Destroyer Hive DG Weapon, Agripinaa Forge World Trait.

It's just icing on the cake that RaW results in a different effect as well.


It does function differently. It gives a modifier to effects like Gets Hot during Overwatch as well as letting you hit on 5's in Overwatch. A rule that only says that you hit on a 5+ in Overwatch doesn't modify things like Gets Hot rolls as well.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 Ghaz wrote:
The fact that 'Parade Drill' mentions Overwatch is specific enough to override the usual rules. In order for Overwatch to override 'Parade Drill' it would have to specifically mention 'Parade Drill' in its rule.


Wat!? That last bit is just insane... you want the core rules to mention every single special rule they interact with >.<

Core rules > Special rules.

Its pretty clear that they get +1 to hit on overwatch. Overwatch clearly says that modifiers dont count as far as scoring hits. Therefore the +1 is only good for overheating plasma or something similar. Thats just how its written and how the rules work.

"it says overwatch so I dont have to follow the rules" is not a valid defense for anything.

They have clear rules for things that break this and they all specifically say they break it, they dont just mention overwatch and then let you pick what rules to follow...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/19 00:32:07


 
   
 
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