Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Galef wrote:

Wyldcarde wrote:
For the price of one wraithknight you can field 3 fire prisms.
It’s not even a contest.

The melee capabilities of the WK should not be dismiss.
However to add to you point, you could get 2 Fire Prims and a melee unit of your choice instead of the WK.

Melee WK can only make their points back if they hit the right targets, mostly superheavies or gargantuan-sized monsters, where S16 AP-4 D6 attacks are used to their full potential.
But if you face an army that does contain that type of targets, your WK will be shot to pieces (usually by that very same baneblade you wanted to assault) before it can make it there.
If the opponent doesn't have anything insanely tough, and the only thing your WK can go after are elite infantry or light transports, it will never make its points back, and the other player can just ignore it. In that case you just crippled your army by not taking more firepower.

It's still a nice model, and wounding basically anything on 2s, ignoring armor and doing flat 6 damages is pretty fun, but I really think it's weak.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Something to possibly ponder: the Suncannon is a flat D:2 instead of D: D3. With Starcannons being halved in cost, the Suncannon/Starcannon WK looks interesting, if still probably worse than the melee or wraithcannon WK.

It also makes you realize that it's the Avenger Gatling Cannon of the Knights, but it's not always heavy 12.

<wish I didn't pack all my books away for moving> Is the Avenger also -3AP? Also what is relative cost of each weapon?

Heavy 12 S6 ap-2 2D, 95pts.

Hmmm, more expensive, less shots, only -1 better AP.

 bullyboy wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Something to possibly ponder: the Suncannon is a flat D:2 instead of D: D3. With Starcannons being halved in cost, the Suncannon/Starcannon WK looks interesting, if still probably worse than the melee or wraithcannon WK.

It also makes you realize that it's the Avenger Gatling Cannon of the Knights, but it's not always heavy 12.

<wish I didn't pack all my books away for moving> Is the Avenger also -3AP? Also what is relative cost of each weapon?

No, the Gatling Cannon is AP -2. It costs 95 points, no idea what a Sun Cannon costs.

Pandabeer wrote:

No, the Gatling Cannon is AP -2. It costs 95 points, no idea what a Sun Cannon costs.

118.

Not great value when you consider average shots at 7.

It's pretty bad, yes. I imagine it was on purpose to make people forget 7th Edition WraithKnights.

Something to keep in mind is that a Wraith Knight with Sword & Board (or Suncannon and Shield) retains the 5++ in melee, where an Imperial Knight does not. Doesn't necessarily make it worth its current points, but it is worth something.

I haven't picked up the Codex yet (tomorrow) but can Protect be cast on a Wraithknight or is it infantry only? A WK with 2+/4++ suddenly sounds a lot scarier.

 Karhedron wrote:
I haven't picked up the Codex yet (tomorrow) but can Protect be cast on a Wraithknight or is it infantry only? A WK with 2+/4++ suddenly sounds a lot scarier.

Only infantry or biker unit. Nothing else.

From the itsy's and bitsy's I gathered over a few days I think the best option would be Iyanden Sword & Board and keep something nearby to heal it if at all possible. Then send it after the biggest tank you can find. Still a situational unit, but it seems to me that most LoWs kinda suffer from this. Knights aren't faring much better atm, and as a DG player I can tell you that even Mortarion goes down fairly quickly if you don't build your list to synergize with him. Only LoW that seems universally useful is Girlyman, but we all know about that guy by now.

Keep in mind there is now a stratagem to heal Wraith constructs. You don't need a Bonesinger to do so, 2CP can do it in a pinch.

Listing things that can help the knight...
Guide...usually a good option
Fortune...brings back Gargantuan basically
Psytronome...24 attacks at S8 -2 D3 damage
Guided wraithsight...combined with above is deadly, reroll all failed hits.
Tears of Isha....2 CP seems high for just D3 wounds. Would prefer to use Bonesinger.
Forewarned
Iyanden....damage doesnt really reduce effectiveness
Alaitic -1 to hit. Shooty only seems a waste of points.
Ulthwe....6+ FNP.

Im definitely championing the suncannon/shield/starcannon option with Iyanden.I want the shield, but prefer to attack with feet than sword.
Farseer casts Fortune, Bonesinger around to heal wounds, Spiritseer ready to unleash psytronome and use Guided wraithsight. Heck, cast jinx on the target unit for reduced save effectively making Titanic feet -3 AP.

Sounds like a lot of support for the knight (Farseer, Bonesinger, Spiritseer) but I'm taking these units in my list anyway.

Would be giddy to pull off 24 S8 attacks, with rerolls to hit, - 3 AP, D3 damage. The suncannon/starcannon shots are just icing on cake

3+/5++ save, plus 5+ FNP, plus D3 healed wounds per turn (2D3 if you use Tears of Isha and bonesinger), and your knight isn't feeling any loss of performance until he's down to 6 wounds. (Loss of 18 wounds).

 bullyboy wrote:
Listing things that can help the knight...
Guide...usually a good option
Fortune...brings back Gargantuan basically
Psytronome...24 attacks at S8 -2 D3 damage
Guided wraithsight...combined with above is deadly, reroll all failed hits.
Tears of Isha....2 CP seems high for just D3 wounds. Would prefer to use Bonesinger.
Forewarned
Iyanden....damage doesnt really reduce effectiveness
Alaitic -1 to hit. Shooty only seems a waste of points.
Ulthwe....6+ FNP.

Im definitely championing the suncannon/shield/starcannon option with Iyanden.I want the shield, but prefer to attack with feet than sword.
Farseer casts Fortune, Bonesinger around to heal wounds, Spiritseer ready to unleash psytronome and use Guided wraithsight. Heck, cast jinx on the target unit for reduced save effectively making Titanic feet -3 AP.

Sounds like a lot of support for the knight (Farseer, Bonesinger, Spiritseer) but I'm taking these units in my list anyway.

Would be giddy to pull off 24 S8 attacks, with rerolls to hit, - 3 AP, D3 damage. The suncannon/starcannon shots are just icing on cake

3+/5++ save, plus 5+ FNP, plus D3 healed wounds per turn (2D3 if you use Tears of Isha and bonesinger), and your knight isn't feeling any loss of performance until he's down to 6 wounds. (Loss of 18 wounds).

All of that is good and all, but it really layers on the points just for 1 WK.

I'll probably try a 3 WK list eventually with 2 Wraithcannon WKs and a Suncannon WK. Super Heavy Detahcment and a Command detachment would net me 7CPs total
I would have an Autarch sit between the shooty WKs to give them reroll 1s to hit. The Suncannon WK would probably rush forward supported by a Fortune/Guide Farseer Skyrunner.
That only leaves points for a Spiritseer as the 3rd HQ and a Bonesinger Elite to sit between the shooting WKs

-

 Galef wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Listing things that can help the knight...
Sounds like a lot of support for the knight (Farseer, Bonesinger, Spiritseer) but I'm taking these units in my list anyway.

All of that is good and all, but it really layers on the points just for 1 WK.

The real question is whether you could get a better performing army by having the Farseer, Bonesinger and Spiritseer buffing more cost-effective units?

Yes you can buff a WK but I think you would do even better buffing a different 500 points worth of units. The problem with the WK is he does not bring enough to the table to justify his cost. It is not that he has a single crucial flaw that can be fixed by a psychic power or two.

I will say that 3 Alaitoc WKs might actually not be a bad choice.
I played a game shortly after 8th came out against a Marine player using Guilliman. I was using 2 Skathach WKs, each with Inferno lance & Deathshroud cannon and 1 Wraithcannon WK supported by an Autarch.

I dropped in both Skatach WKs and killed both of his Lascannon Predators, leaving only 2 Autocannon Dread, various Plasmas, Grav cannons and 2 Assault Cannon Razorbacks alive to take out the WKs, which of course they did but ONLY because Guilliman's buff gave all of those things re-roll to hit AND wound.
There is no way he would have killed more than 1 WK without Guiliman.

If I had to repeat the same game, I could easily make use of the Alaitoc or Ulthwe attributes for a much closer game. Or better yet, do not use Skathach WKs so that I could stay farther back and not have to worry about all the Plasma or Grav, focusing on the Preds & Dreads first, then dealing with the rest at my leisure.

-

 Karhedron wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Listing things that can help the knight...
Sounds like a lot of support for the knight (Farseer, Bonesinger, Spiritseer) but I'm taking these units in my list anyway.

All of that is good and all, but it really layers on the points just for 1 WK.

The real question is whether you could get a better performing army by having the Farseer, Bonesinger and Spiritseer buffing more cost-effective units?

Yes, maybe, but thats not the point. I could certainly add 5 dscythe WG in a serpent plus hemlock for equivalent points but sometimes you just want the knight. Since im bringing those 3 characters anyway, im not really hurting the knight.

Ok, I did some numbers and (unless there was some change to point costs in the Adeptus Mechanicus codex) an Imperial Knight with Avenger Gatling Cannon, Gauntlet and mandatory guns is almost the same price as a Sword n' Board + 2 Scatter Laser Wraithknight (471 vs 474).
The first is quite shootier (12 good quality S6 shots vs 8 no rend damage 1 S6 shots), but far worse in close combat (no invulnerable save, hitting on 4's), and AFAIK more difficult to buff than the Wraithknight.
I won't say they appear to be tied, but the difference is far less glaring than before the CWE codex.