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USA

Where do you grow enough vegetarian food for fifty billion people on a planet that has no arable soil?

Yes, there are some worlds where that might be possible. But India doesn't have anywhere close to the kinds of population density nor the kinds of industrial development that an Imperial Hive World has.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/11 03:08:28


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Vigo. Spain.

Eating Orks counts?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/11 03:41:30


 Crimson Devil wrote:

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While they are fungoid, Orks have more similarities to animals than to plants (in fact, fungi have more similarities to animals than plants in general)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/11 04:35:23


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 Melissia wrote:
Where do you grow enough vegetarian food for fifty billion people on a planet that has no arable soil?

I don't know, but generally speaking raising cattle requires more space than growing plants because you need to raise some plant for your grox and some place for the grox itself, and it takes more plant to raise a grox to eat it than it takes to eat plants directly.
Also algae and stuff and whatever.

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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Melissia wrote:
Where do you grow enough vegetarian food for fifty billion people on a planet that has no arable soil?

I don't know, but generally speaking raising cattle requires more space than growing plants because you need to raise some plant for your grox and some place for the grox itself, and it takes more plant to raise a grox to eat it than it takes to eat plants directly.
Also algae and stuff and whatever.


This.

Producing enough meat to feed people is far more resource intensive than producing enough crops to feed people. There's only a few situations I can think of where meat would actually be a preferable source for feeding a large proportion of people.

1. The native plant-life is toxic or poisonous to humans (and you're unable to grow non-toxic plants), but native animals can eat it and you can eat the animals fine.
2. If the main limiting factor is transport capacity, then as meat has higher energy density then you can transport more calories per cubic metre than with plants (maybe unless the plants are processed?).
3. Native life doesn't subsist on plants via some quirk of alien biology, and you are unable to grow your own.

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Maybe the rich. I think the lower class would be a bit of a case of "Eat the slop we give you and you're going to like it."

 
   
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Hydroponically-grown vegetable proteins would be easier, cheaper, less resource intensive and less space-intensive than animal meat.

Feeding a vast overpopulated galaxy of people only makes sense with a vegetable-based diet.

For those two reasons alone the Imperium probably doesn't use it much. Technology, which has likely been forgotten, and practicality, which they seem to hate.

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 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
Why are you guys all so obviously falling for that guy's trolling?
He's just one random guy on the internet with an opinion that is laughably divorced from reality. Move along.

 
   
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I would imagine a large portion of the Imperium follow the Irish diet: "potato and starvation". More seriously there a probably a lot more vegetarians than people who can eat meet. There must be an enormous quantity of people who feed exclusively on soy based meals because it's the only thing they can afford with cereals like rice and wheat or feculant like potatoes or turnips.
   
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 JohnnyHell wrote:
Hydroponically-grown vegetable proteins would be easier, cheaper, less resource intensive and less space-intensive than animal meat.

Feeding a vast overpopulated galaxy of people only makes sense with a vegetable-based diet.

For those two reasons alone the Imperium probably doesn't use it much. Technology, which has likely been forgotten, and practicality, which they seem to hate.


Is it cheaper than recylcing people as thats what some worlds of the Imperium def do? Corpse starch and other "foodstufffs" are a thing.

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 Melissia wrote:
 Cream Tea wrote:
Vegetarian food is more efficient to produce both in energy and area required
Debatable. A large number of vegetarian staples are inefficient, especially regarding calories provided compared to water used. In fact, most vegetables are very inefficient calorie-wise, making them unsuitable for prolonged heavy labor as needed by the Imperium's citizens.

The Imperium doesn't provide fresh vegetables to most of its people, using hive planets as a basis for "most of its people" given the population density on those planets. It provides nutrient bars that have been crafted out of organic matter in a factory in order to provide the energy needed to get through the day and just enough nutrients to survive. This organic matter is comprised of whatever local resources are available, and includes human corpses. The population of the hive uses whatever meager pay they have to buy other food items from traders as available, and finds other sources of nutrition if they can-- usually animal, such as sump rats.


They are still more energy efficient per area grown though, except where animals are squeezed into gaps that cannot be practically used for growing produce (like pigs) or onto land not suitable for growing productive crops (like a lot of goats and sheep). Also, you would expect just the crops that are most efficient to be grown on mass (such as whatever algae is grown throughout the Imperium, as oft mentioned).

Honestly, I think the vast majority of Imperial citizens would be considered vegetarian aside from the fact they are fed recycled human corpses. Most will be fed reconstituted plant proteins (from algae) as well as plant matter produced on Agri worlds. Only the rich would get proper meat, and recycled human would be added to whatever gruel is fed to citizens on Hive worlds. Obviously, anyone who can catch a rat would likely eat it, but that doesn't really change the fact most Hive citizens will be eating an enforced veggie and human diet, with only a small amount of supplementation from Hive critters (rat-on-a-stick vendors perhaps?)

Based on where current tech if going, I suspect vat-grown nutrients will play a huge part of human nutrition (and likely does in 40k), and whilst technically some of these nutrients could be developed from animal sources, I'm not sure if that counts as not being vegetarian when the last animal killed was millennia ago...

This would be quite different in the underhive, where there are more critters and much more freedom for the occupants, so eating gribbly critters and food actually recognisable as something which grew would be more common.

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 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
That gave me the mental image of an entire shrine world where vegetarianism is enforced with the death penalty to anyone eating meat. Knowing the Imperium, there probably is such a world.


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Almost certainly. Look at the highest instances of vegetarianism in the world correlated with the poorest countries. Meat is a luxury. Remember in biology class how any given layer of the food chain tends to have 10% of the biomass of the previous layer? that's because animals burn that much of the food they eat just staying alive, transferring it into kinetic and heat energy to keep their bodies going.

Anything that metabolizes does that. That's what makes plants much more efficient to sustain a population on than meat in general. the only time its super efficient to eat meat is when you've got a landscape that can't handle human-edible plants and you need the animals to help process and break down the food.

Think snow. And the difference in energy efficiency is still obvious: think about the difference in the population density in, say, medieval india and china and medieval norway where fish and meat were primary staples.

People saying vegetarianism would be some kind of unobtainable luxury in the 41st millenium... what?
   
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the_scotsman wrote:


People saying vegetarianism would be some kind of unobtainable luxury in the 41st millenium... what?


I think they're trapped in modern thinking where vegitarism is sort of a hippy fad thing.

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BrianDavion wrote:
I think they're trapped in modern thinking where vegitarism is sort of a hippy fad thing.

'cept in India ofc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/20 16:25:50


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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I think they're trapped in modern thinking where vegitarism is sort of a hippy fad thing.

'cept in India ofc.


and china. And plenty of other poorer places in the world. Probably 99% of vegetarians that exist today don't even think of themselves as such, they just don't have access to meat. Even where it's a religious thing, plenty of people couldn't afford hardly any meat if they wanted to eat it, and you'll probably notice a bit of a correlation between "A custom/practice that a certain population happens to do and other populations don't do" and "A custom/practice that the god or gods that population believe in considers to be holy and very important to adhere to"

If a world in the imperium existed where the primary food source was vegetation, they'd probably develop a belief that it is heretical to consume the flesh of any of the emperor's creatures.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/20 16:36:15


 
   
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India has way more vegetarians than China. Including many that could have access to meat if they wanted.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_by_country#Demographics

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Anyone who can really decide for themselves, will also eat meat.

A human being needs both meat and vegetables to survive and thrive.

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Valhalla depended on vat grown algae in the old IG codexes

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 Brotherjulian wrote:
Valhalla depended on vat grown algae in the old IG codexes


And are these Valhallans the epitome of health and happiness?

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 RedCommander wrote:
Anyone who can really decide for themselves, will also eat meat.

A human being needs both meat and vegetables to survive and thrive.

Both of theses statements are false. Not only are there hundreds of thousands of people who are clearly wealthy enough to afford meat (if they weren’t, restaurateurs wouldn’t offer vegetarian options) who choose not to consume meat, none of them are regularly dying of malnutrition or there would be public health warnings about the dangers of vegetarianism; even in places where they can’t afford meat, involuntary vegetarians are more likely to die of starvation than malnutrition.
Now, none of that is to say that meat isn’t really useful or tasty and all, but a requirement to live it is not.


As for the Valhallans; they were subject to a planetary invasion by Orks at the time, so probably not? Still they managed to turn out fighting-fit infantry so they must have been doing all right, seeing as how it takes two to five times the daily calories to fight a war than to sit at a desk typing up reports. Especially in a frozen hellhole like Valhalla.
Actually, question for the audience: does eating Ork count as a vegetable for dietary purposes?

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does eating Ork count as a vegetable for dietary purposes?


The functional characteristics of Ork boy/nob tissue would make it equivalent to eating meat. If the tissue has the metabolic and structural requirements of muscle or fat, then it will have the dietary characteristics of muscle or fat. Obviously Orks have genes to reproduce he "fungus" that colonizes their environment, but that isn't expressed in the edible part of a walking talking ork. It's like asking if eating a pork chop is the nutritional equivalent of eating a pig's brain. The two tissues do different things so they make different proteins and ECM, so they have different nutritional profiles.
   
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 RedCommander wrote:
 Brotherjulian wrote:
Valhalla depended on vat grown algae in the old IG codexes


And are these Valhallans the epitome of health and happiness?

Mostly I think they were just hungry. Hard to grow crops or livestock on a perpetual ice cap

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 RedCommander wrote:
Anyone who can really decide for themselves, will also eat meat.

A human being needs both meat and vegetables to survive and thrive.


Untrue. Vegan bodybuilders exist. If you can look like a Catachan without consuming a single animal product your statements are patently false.

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 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
Why are you guys all so obviously falling for that guy's trolling?
He's just one random guy on the internet with an opinion that is laughably divorced from reality. Move along.

 
   
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tyranids eat thier vegetables every time they eat an orc world
   
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 Brotherjulian wrote:
 RedCommander wrote:
 Brotherjulian wrote:
Valhalla depended on vat grown algae in the old IG codexes


And are these Valhallans the epitome of health and happiness?

Mostly I think they were just hungry. Hard to grow crops or livestock on a perpetual ice cap


Still managed to make a nice cup of tea though.

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Realistically speaking, much of the imperium would be vegitarian (although not by choice) as it is the most efficient way to feed a population. Agri-worlds are better off producing grain, legumes, and soy rather than meat as their main export.

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 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
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Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
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Mr Morden wrote:
Is it cheaper than recylcing people as thats what some worlds of the Imperium def do? Corpse starch and other "foodstufffs" are a thing.

You only get one corpse per X decades. Ironically, 'corpse starch' would be a luxury, not a staple or filler like grimderp writers try to suggest.

Mr_Rose wrote:
Both of theses statements are false. Not only are there hundreds of thousands of people who are clearly wealthy enough to afford meat (if they weren’t, restaurateurs wouldn’t offer vegetarian options) who choose not to consume meat, none of them are regularly dying of malnutrition or there would be public health warnings about the dangers of vegetarianism; even in places where they can’t afford meat, involuntary vegetarians are more likely to die of starvation than malnutrition.
Now, none of that is to say that meat isn’t really useful or tasty and all, but a requirement to live it is not.

Wrong. Purely vegetarian diet means dying in your thirties (if you're lucky to live that long) from malnutrition. In that he is entirely correct. There are only two ways to counteract this - either you eat very carefully monitored, varied diet of plants from at least 4 continents that do happen to contain most of the needed nutrients (some of which, ironically, have to be shuttled daily on planes to supermarkets in rich countries, greatly contributing to your carbon footprint and utterly destroying any ecological benefit from not eating meat) or you need to eat diet supplement pills by a handful to get multiple vitamins that are only present in meat and/or only soluble in fat. It's very telling that before modern era there were cultures adapted to 100% meat diet (Inuits) but there was literally none adapted to 100% plant diet, they always got at least some animal-origin nutrients from somewhere. That is not to say vegetarian diet can't exist in 40K, hive world would probably manufacture said diet supplements by a bucketful and generously slop them on algae wafers or whatever.

As for claim dying of malnutrition is not a thing, this is exactly the kind of thinking that leads to this:

http://www.rense.com/general13/malni.htm
https://www.vegan.com/blog/angelina-jolie-claims-vegan-diet-nearly-killed-her/
   
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That's what happens when you don't have the right stuff in your diet, it happens to people who eat meat as well. You really don't have to monitor your diet any more carefully. Protein and iron being the "hardest" to obtain on a no-meat diet, but soy is plentiful (the US is the largest producer of the stuff) and supplements are cheap. And soy is in much the same places as our cattle farms so there is really no difference in shipping. And meat is *really* inefficient when thinking about a totalitarian government who cares only that it's people can still work, not about their comfort.

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 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
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Humans, like most primates, are omnivores. Needed nutrition comes from both animal and plant products.


In our technological world, whether or not you get that needed nutrition from meat or plants is your choice. But absent that? You better get good a hunting and picking berries.

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