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 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Earth127 wrote:
The demon you're talking about is built up as so impossible powerfull even the emperor can't kill it. (Implication is it is meant to kill him.) I tdoes all this imposssible while hiding in an overwhelming army. When it's in the open Drachny'en gets pressured easily.

Also why is this thread here? It should be in background.

It only starts hiding at the very end when it's confronting the entire 10,000 and a mechanic in army with Titans.

Before then it succeeded in killing:

9 Castellax, 10 Custodes, 10 SoS, a Warhound, a Reaver, a warlord, and at the end it possesses a mechanic in general which it uses to pretty much fight the entire army smashing two Custodes dreadnoughts and killing many more Custodes and Sisters. Who again are Nulls and ABD completely ignores this means no Daemon should be able to go near them.

All of which is to prove that some random Daemon is powerful enough to kill the Emperor. Which is all but saying it's more powerful than the Chaos gods since they can't do that themselves.

About Celestine, her strength is never described as enhanced in the lore. The justification for her hurting things is that she wields the Ardent Blade. Plus it's the fact that Abaddon

Spoiler:

Has the Daemon which is powerful enough to do all I have described above in his sword

So she really isn't in the same league as this thing or this Daemon isn't that powerful.

It doesnot kill titans accept by backstab when they are focussed on killing the army of demons at their feet. By the time the archimandrite stuff happens the custodians have been fighting a runningn losing retreat for 2 weeks non-stop.

Not saying it's not slightly mary sue but not impossibly so.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
So I am part way through Master of Mankind and they're building up this, presumably Greater Daemon of Khorne as the most ultimate threat as its picking off the defenders. So far it has killed dozens of heavy servitors, 9 Castellax battle automata, an Archmagos, an entire squad of Sisters of Silence Oblivion Knights (elite unit of Sisters), an entire squad of Custodian Guard on jetbikes, and a Warhound Titan pretty much effortlessly.

That's more like a typical day for a Greater Daemon.

They aren't this good in the game because of game balance and GW want to sell cool looking miniatures. They are also really bad in the game in general.

 XT-1984 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
So I am part way through Master of Mankind and they're building up this, presumably Greater Daemon of Khorne as the most ultimate threat as its picking off the defenders. So far it has killed dozens of heavy servitors, 9 Castellax battle automata, an Archmagos, an entire squad of Sisters of Silence Oblivion Knights (elite unit of Sisters), an entire squad of Custodian Guard on jetbikes, and a Warhound Titan pretty much effortlessly.

That's more like a typical day for a Greater Daemon.

They aren't this good in the game because of game balance and GW want to sell cool looking miniatures. They are also really bad in the game in general.

It's pretty much how you can have the Phoenix lord of the Dark Reapers take on a hive fleet, go into the warp and drag out a Craftworld on his own, and essentially deal millions of causalities in one battle by himself.

The fact someone actually used Celestine's base strength and toughness in game vs that of the fluff which routinely has Space Marines fighting Orks down one hundred at a time in melee combat is.. confusing.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Who again are Nulls and ABD completely ignores this means no Daemon should be able to go near them.

Except Daemons can go near them and have always been able to go near them. The Phariah Gene isnt a magic "No Daemons here button." It is a form of replant to weaker daemons, and a source of pain to some weaker ones, but by no means does it prevent them from going near them.

Game mechanics vary, unsurprisingly, from game to game. In Epic, Greater Daemons and daemon Primarchs wre as big as Knights (as they're getting to be in 40k, now), and could swat battle tanks aside in melee. in WFRP, the summoning of a greater daemon is an event that echoes across the landscape for miles around.

As far as physical form goes, there's been several miniature incarnations of each of the daemons over the years, and I like to think that all of them are "accurate". big muscly bloodletters and weird spindly ones. Same for the other gods' creations.

I mean more generally the books focus on that Daemon got in the way of depicting the Custodes/Sisters at war. I never really got the impression they were that good as fighters. We re basically told a few times they are good and there's a bit where Xiphos is surprised to see one Custodes kill a few marines; that's about it. The vast bulk of the fighting focuses on this Daemons antics and stressing how it's the best thing since sliced bread as it effortlessly kills anything it fights. I mean between this, Flight of the Eisenstein, First Heretic and Thousand Sons it's hard to understand why people in the universe fear the Custodes/Sisters.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
I mean more generally the books focus on that Daemon got in the way of depicting the Custodes/Sisters at war. I never really got the impression they were that good as fighters. We re basically told a few times they are good and there's a bit where Xiphos is surprised to see one Custodes kill a few marines; that's about it. The vast bulk of the fighting focuses on this Daemons antics and stressing how it's the best thing since sliced bread as it effortlessly kills anything it fights. I mean between this, Flight of the Eisenstein, First Heretic and Thousand Sons it's hard to understand why people in the universe fear the Custodes/Sisters.

One could thing the same about Eldar. This, ultra ancient race of Psychic and masters of war, that won the War of Heavens agaisn't the Necrontyr and their masters... that just die, one time and another agaisn't everything. Like Avatars of Khaine or Bloodthirsters.

ADB who wrote the novel likes to retcon while stroking his own ego quite often. My advice is just take it with a big grain of sand.

 Primark G wrote:
ADB who wrote the novel likes to retcon while stroking his own ego quite often. My advice is just take it with a big grain of sand.

Yeah I remembered in First Heretic he is very fond of depicting Daemons and possession in this weird way. For example the Daemon that posses Argel Tal is more like the venom symbiote rather than a Daemon. I mean a Daemon would of be okay with him being a nice guy to anyone as long as it's fed. That's an extremely undemonic thing to do.

I mean it's quite noticeable that the Chaos Gods and traditional Daemons only ever show up when he kind of has to. He had to mention Khorne when Angron transformed in Betrayer; even though up until this point Lorgar had never spoken about Chaos in those terms. Or in MoM when they talk about the Fall of the Eldar; it's impossible to not mention Slannesh. Basically I get the impression there is a weird disdain for how Chaos is written.

A good example. In Betrayer it is suggested that Argel Tal might become a huge winged Daemon. Naturally you would assume this would mean the Gods would gift him with daemonhood. Basically he would be a Daemon Prince. However this is out of touch with how his bond with the Daemon is depicted as a symbiotic relationship. So the insinuation is that all daemonhood ascension is really just bonding to existing Daemons. However this flies in the face of the Daemon Primarches which follow the traditional model of the powers of the warp reshaping their champion into a weapon.

I never can really get into his Mary Sue villians and constant retcons - grimdark according to ADB. * chuckles

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
ADB who wrote the novel likes to retcon while stroking his own ego quite often. My advice is just take it with a big grain of sand.

Yeah I remembered in First Heretic he is very fond of depicting Daemons and possession in this weird way. For example the Daemon that posses Argel Tal is more like the venom symbiote rather than a Daemon. I mean a Daemon would of be okay with him being a nice guy to anyone as long as it's fed. That's an extremely undemonic thing to do.

I mean it's quite noticeable that the Chaos Gods and traditional Daemons only ever show up when he kind of has to. He had to mention Khorne when Angron transformed in Betrayer; even though up until this point Lorgar had never spoken about Chaos in those terms. Or in MoM when they talk about the Fall of the Eldar; it's impossible to not mention Slannesh. Basically I get the impression there is a weird disdain for how Chaos is written.

A good example. In Betrayer it is suggested that Argel Tal might become a huge winged Daemon. Naturally you would assume this would mean the Gods would gift him with daemonhood. Basically he would be a Daemon Prince. However this is out of touch with how his bond with the Daemon is depicted as a symbiotic relationship. So the insinuation is that all daemonhood ascension is really just bonding to existing Daemons. However this flies in the face of the Daemon Primarches which follow the traditional model of the powers of the warp reshaping their champion into a weapon.

The Gal Vorbak are like that because they were meant to entice more people into following Chaos and letting Daemons in. It was also sometime prior to the Heresy when they were possessed, so having everyone constantly under control of and warped by a Daemon would rather quickly have led to the Word Bearers ending up like the Legios II and XI. It was all apart of the ploy to seduce them to the service of the Dark Gods. If the host is nice to people so be it.

If that's true Galas, then has Kharn elevated to that level as well?

-Spoilers ahead for the book "Shroud of Night"-

In that novel Kharn fights Celestine and beheads her, after she takes down a keeper of secrets. So I assume he is as powerful as a Greater daemon without being one. Wonder how that even works, another thread for that I guess.

 KingCorpus wrote:
If that's true Galas, then has Kharn elevated to that level as well?

-Spoilers ahead for the book "Shroud of Night"-

In that novel Kharn fights Celestine and beheads her, after she takes down a keeper of secrets. So I assume he is as powerful as a Greater daemon without being one. Wonder how that even works, another thread for that I guess.

Kharn, Lucius, Ahriman and Typhus, I think even if not explicitly above Greater Daemons, being "special characters" give them a plot armour that will make them be able to accomplish features that Chaos Lords of "similar" power couldn't even dream to accomplish.

But at the end of the day, Warhammer40k is very inconsistent with power levels. One can always argue about a "David vs Goliath" when someone that isn't as powerfull as his opponents wins. Not everything is brute strenght.

Just ask Smaug what he thinks about Black Arrows (Or Mortarion about True Names )

 Galas wrote:
Having that Daemon on his sword doesn't makes the Sword as powerfull as the daemon inside of it. Just look at the Sword Castellan Crowe wields.

Actually it does. Crowe just literally goes, "No, bad sword, no Sector destroying events", every minute. It's always been hinted that if literally anyone got the sword they would be able to destroy an entire sector themselves.

 Quickjager wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Having that Daemon on his sword doesn't makes the Sword as powerfull as the daemon inside of it. Just look at the Sword Castellan Crowe wields.

Actually it does. Crowe just literally goes, "No, bad sword, no Sector destroying events", every minute. It's always been hinted that if literally anyone got the sword they would be able to destroy an entire sector themselves.

Yeah, but this is like Skulltaker and the Archaon Sword from Fantasy. A Daemon inside the sword makes the sword very powerfull, yes, but not as powerfull as if the daemon where to be released in his true form. So if the sword of Crowe can do that, imagine what can accomplish the daemon inside it.