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So I am part way through Master of Mankind and they're building up this, presumably Greater Daemon of Khorne as the most ultimate threat as its picking off the defenders. So far it has killed dozens of heavy servitors, 9 Castellax battle automata, an Archmagos, an entire squad of Sisters of Silence Oblivion Knights (elite unit of Sisters), an entire squad of Custodian Guard on jetbikes, and a Warhound Titan pretty much effortlessly.
Now, this is extremely OP and it contradicts the lore. We know that Skarbrand is the most powerful greater daemon of Khorne. Even he couldn't kill some of the things on that list or at the very least could not do so without great effort. Short of a Daemon Primarch these feats should be far beyond a normal greater daemon and since Skarbrand is pretty much the benchmark of Khorne Daemons its going against the lore to imply this random Daemon is powerful enough to effortlessly kill Custodians, Titans and Nulls that should instantly break its connection to the warp.
Plus in the Horus Heresy novels the most in depth description of Greater Daemons in Fear to Tread, with Kabandha and a Keeper of Secrets were nowhere near as powerful.
Also they're continuing to be extremely inconsistent with what exactly Daemons are. I mentioned Fear to Tread where they are the full on 40k Daemons that you are familiar with in the codex. But this daemon is much more like the weird eldritch thing and that's not really consistent with how Kabandha was portrayed and how Khorne daemons in 40k are shown. I mean I certainly can't reconcile most of the depictions of Daemons in the Horus Heresy to the tabletop army or the 40k codex lore. Fear to Tread is very much the exception.
So I am not sure what they are going for here. I get the impression they want some sort of horror vibe so don't want it to have a personality like Kabandha or Skarbrand. Plus I think they are establishing that its that powerful because its going to fight the Emperor which...really no Greater Daemon should be able to take the Emperor. Horus had to essentially become Archaon and do all the trials on Chaos in Vengeful Spirit on Moloch to become powerful enough to face the Emperor on Terra.
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4000pts Fists Legion
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III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
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Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts
Daemons don't have forms as defined as we seem on the tabletop and normally in the art (Art inspired by the tabletop miniatures). They are creatures of pure magic and emotions.
I don't think limiting the endlessly of the Warp and his creatures within the boundaries of whats availible on the tabletop is a good idea.
About the power, Skarbrand WAS the most powerfull Bloodthirster of Khorne. And it isn't like the power of a Daemon is finitte and defined. Daemons are more powerfull the most inestable and close to the warp the place is, how powerfull is their God at that moment, and how much power did they give to that specific daemon. At the end of the day Daemons are just a part of the power of a God.
But at the end of the day: Different autors, different standards. Warhammer fluff is inconsistent.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/30 23:40:28
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Arachnofiend wrote: Skarbrand isn't even the most powerful daemon of Khorne on the tabletop, An'ggrath (the FW bloodthirster) is much stronger.
Yeah, and even then, he isn't the most powerfull one:
Lexicanum wrote:
An'ggrath the Unbound, the Guardian of the Throne of Skulls, Most Favoured of Khorne, Lord of Bloodthirsters and the Deathbringer is the mightiest Bloodthirster yet summoned from the warp, and Khorne's most favoured servant. His name is only whispered among the Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus and the ranks of the Grey Knights, for it invokes dread in even the greatest of the Emperor's heroes.
Among the ranks of Khorne's daemons, An'ggrath is one of the greatest and most revered. After the treachery of his once-favoured champion Skarbrand, Khorne created An'ggrath to be the ultimate expression of war and destruction
Although greater than Skarbrand in almost every respect, the two daemons do have a furious rivalry and hatred of one another.[1] But Khorne has decreed that the old and the new champions will never face each other in combat, as the sheer volume of bloody tributes that they both inflict in his name are far too valuable to lose
And one can arguee "But Galas, Lorgar defeated him on single combat!"
Lexicanum wrote:Shortly before the Horus Heresy, An'ggrath was encountered in the Eye of Terror by Lorgar, Primarch of the Word Bearers. To prove his dedication to Chaos, Lorgar defeated An'ggrath in single combat
And I'll say "The protagonist always win"
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/30 23:43:05
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
The daemon in that book is not just any daemon, it is the FIRST daemon. Not only that it is implied it is residing in a certain sword the Emperor banished it into.
Lastly the warp/shattered webway is not a mortal part of space, even the weakest daemon in the warp is insanely powerful.
From a rules standpoint we have had 2++ invuln rerollable in the past editions, there are ways tabletop to recreate such a monster.
2017/10/30 23:45:47
Subject: Re:Master of Mankind: Daemon overpowered?
Skarbrand also came years after An'ggrath was originally released, they had to re-retcon An'ggrath's place as a result
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Galas wrote: Daemons don't have forms as defined as we seem on the tabletop and normally in the art (Art inspired by the tabletop miniatures). They are creatures of pure magic and emotions.
I don't thing limiting the endlessly of the Warp and his creatures withint the boundaries of whats availible on the tabletop is a good idea.
About the power, Skarbrand WAS the most powerfull Bloodthirster of Khorne. And it isn't like the power of a Daemon is finitte and defined. Daemons are more powerfull the most inestable and close to the warp the place is, how powerfull is their God at that moment, and how much power did they give to that specific daemon. At the end of the day Daemons are just a part of the power of a God.
But at the end of the day: Different autors, different standards. Warhammer fluff is inconsistent.
Not really because 40k is pretty consistent with how Daemons are depicted. You have lots of God specific daemonic hosts and attendant cult legionaries. The Chaos Gods are a known force and have their somewhat colourful personalities.
30k consistently depicts daemons as occult, bizarre, eldritch and fundamentally mysterious entities from another dimension. They routinely downplay the significance and influence of the Chaos Gods. For example the amount of unaligned daemons that show up is ridiculous. You'd be forgiven for thinking that the Chaos Gods don't exist and don't command legions of Daemons.
Basically
40k Daemons = Doom
30k Daemons = Call of Cthulu
Its less to do with the physical forms, although that is almost entirely absent they seem to really like their weird lovecraftian monsters and more to do with how they are portrayed and how they act. They won't, for example, simply have this be a Khornate horde of Daemons who want to take skulls for the blood god. Or the sinister bleak humour of Nurgle Daemons. Or depraved Slanneshi Daemons. They only ever do that really when they are pretty much forced to when talking about the World Eaters, Emperors Children, Death Guard and Thousand Sons backstory. Even then they're very inconsistent with this and tend to downplay the influence of the Chaos Gods. In Path of Heaven the EC act like they don't know what Slannesh is despite this being late Heresy and them riding around in chaos corrupted ships. I mean really in Betrayer Lorgar mentions that he is helping turn Angron for Khorne and uses his name and it occurred to me that up until this point they have never used that Gods name. But if they aren't talking about the cult legions the Daemons they describe are unrecognisable to what exists in 40k; consistently so.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sfshilo wrote: The daemon in that book is not just any daemon, it is the FIRST daemon. Not only that it is implied it is residing in a certain sword the Emperor banished it into.
Lastly the warp/shattered webway is not a mortal part of space, even the weakest daemon in the warp is insanely powerful.
From a rules standpoint we have had 2++ invuln rerollable in the past editions, there are ways tabletop to recreate such a monster.
Surely the Chaos Gods would be the "first daemons"?
The Daemons POV thinks it needs to keep killing to maintain its physical form and it sees golden light which is the aura of the Emperor and the Webway hasn't fully collapsed since...we'd know. An orderly withdrawel from the lower passages doesn't seem feasible. Plus he is fighting against Null Maidens which in Eisenhorn even an extremely powerful Daemonhost could not even go near yet hes able to fight them like its nothing? So basically its not a full strength Daemon and the Webway hasn't fully plunged into the warp; so it can't be at its full powers.
You don't think its odd to have a random daemon capable of wiping out whole squads of Custodians and titans? No daemon is on par with a daemon primarch; really shouldn't matter if it is the first daemon or not.
I mean have you seen the first plaguebearer model in Blightwar?
Edit: Also just a quick sidenote. What the hell are the Eldar doing letting a demonic army run amok in the Webway? One thing I've always disliked about the HH is that it does act as if there aren't any other species in the galaxy. You wouldn't think the in 10,000 years time Orks and Eldar would have a vastly greater influence on the galaxy than they do in 30k; where they are basically irrelevant. In fact you would be forgiven for thinking they were extinct.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Okay...
So the Daemon just tanked fighting 20 Custodians led by a Tribune, a whole squad of Oblivion Knights led by the head of the Sisterhood Jenetia (who are all nulls BTW ), 50 Castellax and several Custodes/Mechanicum battle tanks. Which apparently meant it "felt pain" and decided to withdraw.
Also hes with a "horde of Daemons". What does that even mean? If its bloodletters and you're relying on assumed knowledge just call them bloodletters? If its something new then describe it. Aaron's only just introduced us to the demonic army and hes been extremely minimalist in his descriptions. They could be fighting molemen for all I know.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/31 00:29:51
Starting Sons of Horus Legion
Starting Daughters of Khaine
2000pts Sisters of Silence
4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts
I won't put any spoilers up but when you realise precisely what entity is being dealt with, think about it as well when you hear the name eventually, you will realise why protaginists are shatting their power armour.
Please note, for those of you who play Chaos Daemons as a faction the term "Daemon" is potentially offensive. Instead, please play codex "Chaos: Mortally Challenged". Thank you.
NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote: I won't put any spoilers up but when you realise precisely what entity is being dealt with, think about it as well when you hear the name eventually, you will realise why protaginists are shatting their power armour.
I know that
Spoiler:
its the Daemon bound to Abaddons sword. But Abaddon is simply not in that league. 20 Custodes would beat Abaddon. I mean Celestine, an unaugmented human Str and T of 3, fights Abaddon, with a close fight in round one and running him through in round 2. He is not Daemon Primarch level.
Starting Sons of Horus Legion
Starting Daughters of Khaine
2000pts Sisters of Silence
4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts
Galas wrote: Daemons don't have forms as defined as we seem on the tabletop and normally in the art (Art inspired by the tabletop miniatures). They are creatures of pure magic and emotions.
I don't thing limiting the endlessly of the Warp and his creatures withint the boundaries of whats availible on the tabletop is a good idea.
About the power, Skarbrand WAS the most powerfull Bloodthirster of Khorne. And it isn't like the power of a Daemon is finitte and defined. Daemons are more powerfull the most inestable and close to the warp the place is, how powerfull is their God at that moment, and how much power did they give to that specific daemon. At the end of the day Daemons are just a part of the power of a God.
But at the end of the day: Different autors, different standards. Warhammer fluff is inconsistent.
Not really because 40k is pretty consistent with how Daemons are depicted. You have lots of God specific daemonic hosts and attendant cult legionaries. The Chaos Gods are a known force and have their somewhat colourful personalities.
30k consistently depicts daemons as occult, bizarre, eldritch and fundamentally mysterious entities from another dimension. They routinely downplay the significance and influence of the Chaos Gods. For example the amount of unaligned daemons that show up is ridiculous. You'd be forgiven for thinking that the Chaos Gods don't exist and don't command legions of Daemons.
Basically
40k Daemons = Doom
30k Daemons = Call of Cthulu
Its less to do with the physical forms, although that is almost entirely absent they seem to really like their weird lovecraftian monsters and more to do with how they are portrayed and how they act. They won't, for example, simply have this be a Khornate horde of Daemons who want to take skulls for the blood god. Or the sinister bleak humour of Nurgle Daemons. Or depraved Slanneshi Daemons. They only ever do that really when they are pretty much forced to when talking about the World Eaters, Emperors Children, Death Guard and Thousand Sons backstory. Even then they're very inconsistent with this and tend to downplay the influence of the Chaos Gods. In Path of Heaven the EC act like they don't know what Slannesh is despite this being late Heresy and them riding around in chaos corrupted ships. I mean really in Betrayer Lorgar mentions that he is helping turn Angron for Khorne and uses his name and it occurred to me that up until this point they have never used that Gods name. But if they aren't talking about the cult legions the Daemons they describe are unrecognisable to what exists in 40k; consistently so.
I always assumed that the nature of Chaos had changed during the 10,000 years between 30k and 40k. Or perhaps it would be better to say that the facets of Chaos being presented to the material galaxy have changed. It's also entirely possible that just the fact that the major gods were identified as distinct entities later in the heresy itself made them more distinct from each other. That each god got their own legion could have also strengthened the factionalism within Chaos and changed what it was. The nature of Chaos is to always be in flux, yet at the same time any existing or previous state of daemons could potentially show up in any time period due to the warp being what it is.
Galas wrote: Daemons don't have forms as defined as we seem on the tabletop and normally in the art (Art inspired by the tabletop miniatures). They are creatures of pure magic and emotions.
I don't thing limiting the endlessly of the Warp and his creatures withint the boundaries of whats availible on the tabletop is a good idea.
About the power, Skarbrand WAS the most powerfull Bloodthirster of Khorne. And it isn't like the power of a Daemon is finitte and defined. Daemons are more powerfull the most inestable and close to the warp the place is, how powerfull is their God at that moment, and how much power did they give to that specific daemon. At the end of the day Daemons are just a part of the power of a God.
But at the end of the day: Different autors, different standards. Warhammer fluff is inconsistent.
Not really because 40k is pretty consistent with how Daemons are depicted. You have lots of God specific daemonic hosts and attendant cult legionaries. The Chaos Gods are a known force and have their somewhat colourful personalities.
30k consistently depicts daemons as occult, bizarre, eldritch and fundamentally mysterious entities from another dimension. They routinely downplay the significance and influence of the Chaos Gods. For example the amount of unaligned daemons that show up is ridiculous. You'd be forgiven for thinking that the Chaos Gods don't exist and don't command legions of Daemons.
Basically
40k Daemons = Doom
30k Daemons = Call of Cthulu
Its less to do with the physical forms, although that is almost entirely absent they seem to really like their weird lovecraftian monsters and more to do with how they are portrayed and how they act. They won't, for example, simply have this be a Khornate horde of Daemons who want to take skulls for the blood god. Or the sinister bleak humour of Nurgle Daemons. Or depraved Slanneshi Daemons. They only ever do that really when they are pretty much forced to when talking about the World Eaters, Emperors Children, Death Guard and Thousand Sons backstory. Even then they're very inconsistent with this and tend to downplay the influence of the Chaos Gods. In Path of Heaven the EC act like they don't know what Slannesh is despite this being late Heresy and them riding around in chaos corrupted ships. I mean really in Betrayer Lorgar mentions that he is helping turn Angron for Khorne and uses his name and it occurred to me that up until this point they have never used that Gods name. But if they aren't talking about the cult legions the Daemons they describe are unrecognisable to what exists in 40k; consistently so.
I always assumed that the nature of Chaos had changed during the 10,000 years between 30k and 40k. Or perhaps it would be better to say that the facets of Chaos being presented to the material galaxy have changed. It's also entirely possible that just the fact that the major gods were identified as distinct entities later in the heresy itself made them more distinct from each other. That each god got their own legion could have also strengthened the factionalism within Chaos and changed what it was. The nature of Chaos is to always be in flux, yet at the same time any existing or previous state of daemons could potentially show up in any time period due to the warp being what it is.
Oh no they do reference the lore as I would understand it. For example in the Master of Mankind they are in the webway so they talk about the Fall, Slannesh and crab demon women bursting out of the Eldars ripe minds. Because it happens to be relevant. In Fear to Tread its full on bickering demonic legions of Khorne and Slannesh.
So they aren't different, but their portrayal on most of the Heresy novels is and especially the relative prominence of the Chaos Gods and their respective demonic hosts who have played an extremely minimal role in the series. I mean look at any artwork of the new Death Guard and you have them alongside all the Nurgle Chaos demons. You simply don't get this in the Hrous Heresy. There's vague mention of them "encountering warp entities" but this tends to be along the lines of creepy monsters that murder people rather than Khornes infernal legions.Samus for example. It's a weird monster that shows up, causes trouble and then disappears.
I mean you only have to compare the impact of the Ruinstorm, which has really only impaired travel a bit and the 8th edition warp rift where thousands of worlds are consumed by Daemon Armies....
I get that they want to focus on the legions and enjoy the creative freedom to make demons more lovecraftian but you lose the presence of this faction and it's integral role as a main arm in the forces of Chaos arsenal. It's not just random monsters like Samus, it's full on demonic legions.
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4000pts Fists Legion
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III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts
Current CSM have far more exposure to daemons than heresy traitors did. They have 10,000 years of experience in dealing with them for starters, which is a lot of time to learn rituals of summoning, make pacts with various daemons, etc. They are also more saturated with warp energies themselves due to chilling in the eye of terror for so long. If daemonic influence was radiation a geiger counter would get a few clicks off a heresy era traitor but go crazy on a 'modern' CSM.
Yeah, I think as NinthMusketeer. Daemons in the Horus Heresy where just a boogey-man, during the Great Crusade they didn't know they existed and even in the Horus Heresy they wheren't as defined as known as in 40k.
Thas why I believe they play the lovecraftian card. Daemons haven't changed, but the imperial perception of them has.
And yeah, some novels depict them as their 40k counterpats, but thats what happens when you have a 50-book saga with more than 20 different authors.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/10/31 03:06:51
Subject: Re:Master of Mankind: Daemon overpowered?
I wouldn't pay much heed to this. It's what happens when chaos fanboys get to write fluff. They'll keep moving the goal posts until nothing makes sense or even matters anymore.
"Be like General Tarsus of yore, bulletproof and free of fear!"
2017/10/31 03:15:50
Subject: Re:Master of Mankind: Daemon overpowered?
BlaxicanX wrote: Khabanda and his warband wiped out the entire Leviathan mega-tendril that was attacking Baal in a day.
Also, it's worth noting that none of the things noted in your list of victims was as strong as a Primarch.
A warhound titan almost kills Angron and Lirgar in Betrayer.
Horus thinks he is about to die when he is confronted by a group of Knights in Vengeful Spirit. He gets saved by a ton of possessed marines.
Even when the Primarches have destroyed Titans it's always depicted as a big deal and a demonstration of the limits of their power. The casual way it is done by this Daemon is inconsistent.
If a group of Grey Knights can vanquish Daemon Primarch Angron then I don't see why 20 Custodians can't kill a mere Greater Daemon.
Also ADB is really understating the effect of 20 Nulls being close to a Daemon.
Plus in the rules 9 Castelax could kill any Primarch and certainly wouldn't instantly die as depicted.
Given what the Daemons identity is it also is inconsistent with how powerful that character is, because he has been beaten and is not that powerful.
K had an entire Khornate horde with him and was only fighting Tyranids. He didn't do it himself.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/31 11:12:49
Starting Sons of Horus Legion
Starting Daughters of Khaine
2000pts Sisters of Silence
4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts
My headcannon for this is that the daemon in MoT was in it's pure form which is more powerful than if it appeared in any form of physical shape. That or being first daemon ever it's just bloody strong.
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2017/10/31 13:54:48
Subject: Re:Master of Mankind: Daemon overpowered?
Okay the Daemon is now able to possess the Princeps of a Titan. Pretty sure it's machine spirit is meant to be too strong to allow a Daemon to effortlessly possess somebody like that. If Daemons could do that then they would never use Titans.
Starting Sons of Horus Legion
Starting Daughters of Khaine
2000pts Sisters of Silence
4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts
2017/10/31 14:41:33
Subject: Re:Master of Mankind: Daemon overpowered?
So, I think some of the point is missed here while trying to adhere to tabletop assumptions, correct me if I'm wrong, but assuming I'm right this is a pretty massive spoiler, as such behind the wall it goes.
Spoiler:
Isn't this specific demon implied to be a reflection of the event that drove the emperor to conquest in the first place? That supposed first murder of man kind? If that event lead to the master of man kind himself, this thing could be the chaotic reflection of him. Or some such nonsense.
At the very least it's powered by plot, but at no point is it assigned a place within the standard hierarchy. At least not so long as I remember. It's not a tabletop demon.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/31 14:42:15
2017/10/31 15:11:58
Subject: Re:Master of Mankind: Daemon overpowered?
Long post, some spoilers on Master of Mankind plus other books in the series. Just my thoughts on the subject, take with a grain of salt.
Spoiler:
I think a lot your views on daemons and lore vs tabletop are a little constrained together and causing some issues here.
The daemon you are refering to isnt some greater daemon of khorne, it isnt a daemon of any of the greater gods. It might have some resemblances to them; lust for destruction and murder, an ever changing form/apperance. This daemon is a lesser god of sorts, born of the first murder, destroyer of empires the lesser daemons fighting with him are followers of his power not of the big four. Drach n'yen posses far greater strength then most daemons and is why the emperor him self had to feth his whole plan over to deal with this daemon. We also have to remember that this is in the warp, yes its in the webway but the webway is cracked open and the warp is spilling in. In this place the daemons are much more connected to their source of power, spending a lot less effort doing things like holding their material form together and focusing a lot more of their power on fighting.
Another thing to remember when you are reading the 30k novels and especially MoN is whose perspective are you looking through at the time. The imperium on the whole doesn't believe in daemons, spirits, gods or any of that nonsense because that was the emperors teachings. Look at loken in the first books when he is faced with Samus, he is brought to the edge of mental break down because of that endeavor, everything hes been taught is coming into question. A space marine, and not just that but a member of the mornival, a proven and trusted space marine and thats what the sight of a daemon did to him. We are talking about the first encounters with daemons, even the coustodes are not adapt at fighting them, so for a lesser god like Drach n'yen to kill hand fulls of them is reasonable, for him to take down a titan being piloted by mere humans that are already at the brink of their limits just to control the thing is reasonable. For him to kill Sisters is reasonable, even with their physic null, in the webway/warp they are near useless. The only things to bring down something like a greater daemon or more powerful are the primarchs (horus/sanguinus) and the emperor.
30k consistently depicts daemons as occult, bizarre, eldritch and fundamentally mysterious entities from another dimension. They routinely downplay the significance and influence of the Chaos Gods. For example the amount of unaligned daemons that show up is ridiculous. You'd be forgiven for thinking that the Chaos Gods don't exist and don't command legions of Daemons.
They dont downplay the significance and influence of the "chaos gods" because the imperium doesn't know about these yet. Again the heresy novels play a lot with the perspective of the character you are viewing the world through, and to expect someone who doesn't even know daemons exist, its hard to take their perspective of a daemon and relate it to something even more absurd as gods. We see this in the first or second book when Horus fights the daemon form of that governor, when the daemon is consistently referring to the gifts and glory of nerglith and Horus isn't understanding what its talking about and doesn't care about the daemons ramblings. As for unaligned daemons, there are always unaligned daemons, even in 40k. Chaos isnt a four god entity, it has many forms all of which are battling for power and control, not every daemon is looking to please the big four.
A lot of other things you've brought up are comparisons to the rules of the table top game, which those kinds of relationships need to be thrown out the window, the game and the lore are not a side by side comparison. The game trys to imitate the lore while keeping some semblance of balance to remain a game. If we followed the lore a single marine would be much better then what we have and an army of marines would damn near destroy anything across the table from them.
The Daemon in the book is born from the First Murder, and is connected to every human murder since then til the end of existence due to the nature of the Warp. It's also not a daemon of anyone of the gods, it just exists. Outside of the table top the are more Daemons than just the sort that exist with in the ranks of the God's Daemonic Hordes. Daemons that change their shape, that twist their forms, much like The End of Empires does.
As for Titan possession it is absolutely possible for the Daemon to overwhelm a Machine Spirit. There are Chaos Titans after all and most of them dont have the human crew. They are either possessed by a Daemon, or a Machine Spirit that has been twisted into a Daemon
2017/10/31 18:29:31
Subject: Re:Master of Mankind: Daemon overpowered?
willy277 wrote: Long post, some spoilers on Master of Mankind plus other books in the series. Just my thoughts on the subject, take with a grain of salt.
Spoiler:
I think a lot your views on daemons and lore vs tabletop are a little constrained together and causing some issues here.
The daemon you are refering to isnt some greater daemon of khorne, it isnt a daemon of any of the greater gods. It might have some resemblances to them; lust for destruction and murder, an ever changing form/apperance. This daemon is a lesser god of sorts, born of the first murder, destroyer of empires the lesser daemons fighting with him are followers of his power not of the big four. Drach n'yen posses far greater strength then most daemons and is why the emperor him self had to feth his whole plan over to deal with this daemon. We also have to remember that this is in the warp, yes its in the webway but the webway is cracked open and the warp is spilling in. In this place the daemons are much more connected to their source of power, spending a lot less effort doing things like holding their material form together and focusing a lot more of their power on fighting.
Another thing to remember when you are reading the 30k novels and especially MoN is whose perspective are you looking through at the time. The imperium on the whole doesn't believe in daemons, spirits, gods or any of that nonsense because that was the emperors teachings. Look at loken in the first books when he is faced with Samus, he is brought to the edge of mental break down because of that endeavor, everything hes been taught is coming into question. A space marine, and not just that but a member of the mornival, a proven and trusted space marine and thats what the sight of a daemon did to him. We are talking about the first encounters with daemons, even the coustodes are not adapt at fighting them, so for a lesser god like Drach n'yen to kill hand fulls of them is reasonable, for him to take down a titan being piloted by mere humans that are already at the brink of their limits just to control the thing is reasonable. For him to kill Sisters is reasonable, even with their physic null, in the webway/warp they are near useless. The only things to bring down something like a greater daemon or more powerful are the primarchs (horus/sanguinus) and the emperor.
30k consistently depicts daemons as occult, bizarre, eldritch and fundamentally mysterious entities from another dimension. They routinely downplay the significance and influence of the Chaos Gods. For example the amount of unaligned daemons that show up is ridiculous. You'd be forgiven for thinking that the Chaos Gods don't exist and don't command legions of Daemons.
They dont downplay the significance and influence of the "chaos gods" because the imperium doesn't know about these yet. Again the heresy novels play a lot with the perspective of the character you are viewing the world through, and to expect someone who doesn't even know daemons exist, its hard to take their perspective of a daemon and relate it to something even more absurd as gods. We see this in the first or second book when Horus fights the daemon form of that governor, when the daemon is consistently referring to the gifts and glory of nerglith and Horus isn't understanding what its talking about and doesn't care about the daemons ramblings. As for unaligned daemons, there are always unaligned daemons, even in 40k. Chaos isnt a four god entity, it has many forms all of which are battling for power and control, not every daemon is looking to please the big four.
A lot of other things you've brought up are comparisons to the rules of the table top game, which those kinds of relationships need to be thrown out the window, the game and the lore are not a side by side comparison. The game trys to imitate the lore while keeping some semblance of balance to remain a game. If we followed the lore a single marine would be much better then what we have and an army of marines would damn near destroy anything across the table from them.
Just finished the novel:
Spoiler:
I am not on board with the notion that some random daemon in Abaddon's sword is suddenly this god level daemon that transcends the chaos pantheon. That seems a little OTT. I get that they're going for "its the sword that Abaddon wants to use to kill the Emperor"; that doesn't mean it should be suddenly elevated to that level. Especially since it creates enormous inconsistencies with how powerful Abaddon is. I mean Celestine beats him and shes an unaugmented human. Yes, a bit like Archaon, it should be a powerful daemon; but its pushing it to imply that it sets it at that level.
Well considering the Imperium has been fighting the Traitor Legions for five years and they have actually split the galaxy in two with a giant warp rift (sound familiar) they really should be fighting a LOT more demonic armies than they are. Aside from Signus Prime and the War in the Webway the demons simply aren't involved in the Horus Heresy. Which is very out of touch with both the scale of the conflict and the people fighting it. They occasionally vaguely reference that "the enemy has a habit of using xenos entities" or some other such nonsense but you rarely actually encounter them. Compare that to descriptions of the Battle of Cadia or pretty much any 8th edition lore where whole worlds have been conquered by demonic legions and changed by their corruption. Basically it should be impossible to miss them.
Yes but on Signus Prime, the Blood Angels have no idea what they are fighting but from the descriptions and Word Bearer POV you can clock that these are Khorne and Slannesh Daemons. That's generally how you write our characters encountering forces they do not understand but we the audience do. However most of the descriptions of Chaos in the HH do not follow this pattern. If I had to summarise how they get described:
1. They avoid using words like Chaos and the Gods actual names
2. They avoid using the Daemons we are familiar with from the game.
3. They consistently like to imply that Daemons aren't truly sentient, even Lorgar thinks this during Betrayer. But it contradicts the Codex lore where they have very strong individual personalities.
4. Related to the above, they stress that Daemons are first and foremost animalistic monsters. You don't get the impression they have an agenda or plan or smart. You certainly couldn't envisage a daemon like Samus getting a grudge like Khabandha does. For example End of Empires in this seems to just have a bizarre instinctual animalistic drive to kill the Emperor rather than a personal vendetta like Khabandha and Sanguinious.
5. Outside of the Word Bearers they have played down the influence of Chaos amongst the various Traitor Legions. Being almost non-existent among the NL and IW. Even with the EC, they have avoided having them outright worship Slannesh despite repeatedly implying the legion has fallen since their first novel. In Path of Heaven they still seem pretty clueless about Slannesh and the one character who does try to summon Daemons is pretty secular about it. Really the cult legions should all be as religious as the Word Bearers.
6. They avoid using the full Daemonic armies that are commonplace in 40k.
Really I would have said that 5 years into the Heresy, that Chaos should be a known and well understood force to the Traitor Legions. That, excepting the Death Guard, all the cult legions should be worshiping their respective deities. You should see a profusion of warp technology and application of dark sorcery to gain power by the likes of the SoH, NL and IW. I mean the IW should be using demon engines and obliterators by now. I don't even know what they are doing with the Alpha Legion anymore since they're starting to actually imply they aren't Chaos in 40k. I'd have said that daemonic invasions should be a well understood and common occurrence, often being used to boost the armies of Horus directly as they are in 40k. We're clearly getting close to the endgame and quite a few Daemon Primarchs have popped up so its hard for me to get this lingering weirdness concerning how Chaos is depicted. I mean per the old lore, demonic armies were used at the Imperial Palace so they are going to have to either explain that or retcon it.
Starting Sons of Horus Legion
Starting Daughters of Khaine
2000pts Sisters of Silence
4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts
2017/10/31 18:48:11
Subject: Re:Master of Mankind: Daemon overpowered?
I mean Celestine beats him and shes an unaugmented human.
Celestine isn't a unaugmented human. She is more like a Greater Daemon of the Emperor. Not only physical power matters, with all the Psychic powers she had, she is a beast, one of the most powerfull individuals that exist on the Imperium, ignoring Primarchs.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/10/31 19:56:36
Subject: Re:Master of Mankind: Daemon overpowered?
I mean Celestine beats him and shes an unaugmented human.
Celestine isn't a unaugmented human. She is more like a Greater Daemon of the Emperor. Not only physical power matters, with all the Psychic powers she had, she is a beast, one of the most powerfull individuals that exist on the Imperium, ignoring Primarchs.
Physical strength does matter. Celestine is principally a close combat character who beat/held Abaddon at bay blade to blade. But physically she is still an unaugmented human. If you read novels regarding SoB it's made very clear that they aren't a match for Chaos Marines. For example in Warmason where they pretty easily destroy a whole squad of Celestians. So her being physically a human would really impair her ability to fight even a normal marine let alone Abaddon or a Daemon Prince.
Starting Sons of Horus Legion
Starting Daughters of Khaine
2000pts Sisters of Silence
4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts
The demon you're talking about is built up as so impossible powerfull even the emperor can't kill it. (Implication is it is meant to kill him.) I tdoes all this imposssible while hiding in an overwhelming army. When it's in the open Drachny'en gets pressured easily.
Also why is this thread here? It should be in background.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/31 20:48:43
I mean Celestine beats him and shes an unaugmented human.
Celestine isn't a unaugmented human. She is more like a Greater Daemon of the Emperor. Not only physical power matters, with all the Psychic powers she had, she is a beast, one of the most powerfull individuals that exist on the Imperium, ignoring Primarchs.
Physical strength does matter. Celestine is principally a close combat character who beat/held Abaddon at bay blade to blade. But physically she is still an unaugmented human. If you read novels regarding SoB it's made very clear that they aren't a match for Chaos Marines. For example in Warmason where they pretty easily destroy a whole squad of Celestians. So her being physically a human would really impair her ability to fight even a normal marine let alone Abaddon or a Daemon Prince.
In Warhammer you can use Psychic might and power to incrase your physical power, endurance and strenght. Librarians do it all the time, you have the Librarian of the Deathwatch Overkill box, destroying a full Ork raid with his bare hands before even being a Space Marine because he entered a berserker mode with hys psychich powers.
Without power Celestine has the strenght of a normal woman in power armour, I agree. But she is a Living Saint, a "Greater Daemon" of the Emperor. She doesn't fight without being imbuied in psychic power.
You are severely underestimating how powerfull Celestine is, both as a combatant and as a individual on itself.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/31 20:52:09
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Earth127 wrote: The demon you're talking about is built up as so impossible powerfull even the emperor can't kill it. (Implication is it is meant to kill him.) I tdoes all this imposssible while hiding in an overwhelming army. When it's in the open Drachny'en gets pressured easily.
Also why is this thread here? It should be in background.
It only starts hiding at the very end when it's confronting the entire 10,000 and a mechanic in army with Titans.
Before then it succeeded in killing:
9 Castellax, 10 Custodes, 10 SoS, a Warhound, a Reaver, a warlord, and at the end it possesses a mechanic in general which it uses to pretty much fight the entire army smashing two Custodes dreadnoughts and killing many more Custodes and Sisters. Who again are Nulls and ABD completely ignores this means no Daemon should be able to go near them.
All of which is to prove that some random Daemon is powerful enough to kill the Emperor. Which is all but saying it's more powerful than the Chaos gods since they can't do that themselves.
About Celestine, her strength is never described as enhanced in the lore. The justification for her hurting things is that she wields the Ardent Blade. Plus it's the fact that Abaddon
Spoiler:
Has the Daemon which is powerful enough to do all I have described above in his sword
So she really isn't in the same league as this thing or this Daemon isn't that powerful.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/31 21:13:47
Starting Sons of Horus Legion
Starting Daughters of Khaine
2000pts Sisters of Silence
4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts
), 50 Castellax and several Custodes/Mechanicum battle tanks. Which apparently meant it "felt pain" and decided to withdraw.
