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 warboss wrote:

 Chillreaper wrote:
Oh wow, 10 episodes up at the same time!

I was expecting a Discovery-style one episode a week job.

Time to get the snacks ready!

That douchey monthly mandatory paywall in most regions yet disseminated like free broadcast TV style having your cake and eating it too release schedule is uniquely STD.

Netflix did it with Last Kingdom a few months back and they’re doing it with Black Lightning now.

RE: the hotel name, I’m curious if the choice of replacement was a deliberate call back to James Purefoy’s previous role, or simply coincidence.

I’ve not read the books, but I watched the first 2 episodes last night and it was interesting enough that I did something rare......out my iPad down and concentrated completely. This is a good sign!

 Laughing Man wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
A key point of the novels is that Kovaks is a rebel ex-Envoy because Envoys are lackeys of the oppressive interstellar UN system.

I'm not saying I wouldn't watch it because of that, but it's a bit like Han Shot First.

This is pretty spoilery, the second one is my own thoughts.

Spoiler:

They seem to try and have their cake and eat it with that one. The Envoys are goodies now, but Kovaks was a lackey of the oppressive interstellar UN system before he became an Envoy as a CTAC operative.

Spoiler:

Having finished it, I have to ask - are we as the viewer supposed to think the Envoys were the good guys? That they had the right idea?

This show reminds me why I have a love-hate relationship with cyberpunk. Authors craft these nightmare scenarios, but they can never quite grasp the implications of their own setup so it devolves into ludditry. If your technology is going to "destroy humanity" because super-rich people would use it to maintain their grip on power, the problem is that there are super-rich people, and the idea that the only possible way to address that fact is to take it upon yourself to forcibly limit everyone to 100 years of life is a joke. Why bother setting up all these interesting societal constructs if they're just going to be used as a pulpit to preach the Man Wasn't Meant To Meddle Medley endlessly.

And of course, if any concession is made that technology isn't to blame, then the only possible reason there could be a problem is just that human beings are inherently irredeemable creatures. It couldn't be that the rich & powerful are monsters because monsters willing to do anything in service of their own goals are more likely to be rich & powerful, no no, that would mean having to examine the underlying structure of our own society rather than just lazily transposing it into the future, so everyone must be denied access to whatever amazing tech is at the heart of the story(this is a trope hardly unique to this particular cyberpunk IP).

It'd be nice, just once or twice, to watch one of these settings actually follow through after setting up all the pins you'd need to knock down for an anti-capitalist polemic. And note, I'm not demanding anti-capitalist polemic for its own sake, just wishing that if you're going to sit down and write up a scenario where "just eat the fething rich already" is the obvious conclusion to draw, don't desperately swerve away from that when the implication becomes clear, own it for once. I mean seriously, the big comparison Falconer comes up with is roads, and we're meant to think "hey yeah, roads are totes bad and we'd be better off if they'd never been invented"?

Spoiler:

The books ARE an anti-capitalist polemic, although with how misandrist Quellism can be I'm not entirely sure how sympathetic it's supposed to be despite Kovacs being a pretty hardcore Quellist.

@Chromedog: Re. hotel AI:

@Chillreaper: Re. Firefly:

If you read the books you will come to a surprisingly fun ending in the "Eat The Rich" kind of line.

Just did an IMDB cast readup, trying to work out which characters made it into the show.

Watched two episodes last night. Never read the books but really enjoying the show so far. The main character is enjoyable, look forward to more episodes.

Got to watch the first two episodes today. Quite enjoyed them, but now I want it on bluray so I can own it myself.

Just finished watching it. Quite enjoyed it.

 Chillreaper wrote:
Just did an IMDB cast readup, trying to work out which characters made it into the show.

Spoiler:

Didn't notice any reference to Virginia Vidaura. Sure, she doesn't appear until Woken Furies, but then neither does Quell. Have they combined the two characters? Making Quell one of Kovacs' contemporaries; is she going to end up hanging with the Little Blue Bugs?

Oh, and nice casting of both Michael Eklund and Matt Frewer. Always took "Carnage" to be a kind of psycho "Max Headroom" type.

Some filming locations have been seen on more than one other SF genre show in the last few years (unsurprising, it was shot in Canada).

Just finished the season and definitely enjoyed it. I have a few minor quibbles (like why they spent alot of time and money on SFX for envoy spatial awareness/senses in the Ep1 opening scene only to ignore it for the rest of the season for all but a few seconds) but I do think the first half of the season was stronger than the second half. Regardless, I'll definitely watch the second season as well when it eventually comes out.

 warboss wrote:
I have a few minor quibbles (like why they spent alot of time and money on SFX for envoy spatial awareness/senses in the Ep1 opening scene only to ignore it for the rest of the season for all but a few seconds)

They did the same in Daredevil. They did one episode showing how he 'sees' things and then never use it again. Bascially just a way to set up how he does what he does and then you know so they don't have to show it again.

I'd say it was for the same reason they did it in Daredevil (CGI is expensive) but this shows budget seems far and away higher than Daredevils. So much CGI.

It's definitely no masterpiece, but it's good enough I guess. The dialogue undermines what should be more serious show. And some of the CGI is questionable, especially that CG car landing in the first episode..that was real bad. I'd put the show somewhere around the same quality as last years live action ghost in the shell, but since its a show it has more time to deliver on its ideas and characters. I've only seen the first two episodes so my opinions are more like a first impression for now.

 -Loki- wrote:

 warboss wrote:
I have a few minor quibbles (like why they spent alot of time and money on SFX for envoy spatial awareness/senses in the Ep1 opening scene only to ignore it for the rest of the season for all but a few seconds)

They did the same in Daredevil. They did one episode showing how he 'sees' things and then never use it again. Bascially just a way to set up how he does what he does and then you know so they don't have to show it again.

I'd say it was for the same reason they did it in Daredevil (CGI is expensive) but this shows budget seems far and away higher than Daredevils. So much CGI.

In my case, I'm not advocating necessarily for a bigger budget (or portion of the budget) to be spent on that particular effect over the span of the season but just to even out the use over the course of the episodes. The opening scene IMO overused it as it felt to me like it went on too long and it would have been nice if half that CGI time/money was spent doing the same thing in smaller increments sprinkled in throughout a few more fight scenes. YMMV.

Finished it all yesterday.

Couple of things:



However, I still think it's the best sci-fi I've seen in years (any recommendations to change my opinion on that would be most welcome!)..

I'm up to episode 7; haven't read the books, probably will soon though.

So far I'm enjoying it, it has a couple of rough spots, but definitely on the better end of the spectrum.

I find it interesting that the whole Poe thing was made up for the show, so far he's probably my favorite character.

Question for someone who has read the books:

How much more source material is there to mine? While they did leave enough open doors to make more shows, will they be creating whole cloth, or are we just scratching the surface of the books?

He was made up as a replacement (the hotel is named after Jimi Hendrix in the book, and has a theme to match but the name and likeness are protected trademarks these days ). No avatar, though, but the same heavy artillery and protective "instincts"

I liked Poe more than Jimi and I have read the books.
It's easier to see him (Poe) in the "servant" role without getting into murky territory that a PoC character would delve into (even if its not an enslaved being as such, AIs are "free" citizens on earth) - he had a personality befitting his preferred "time period".

There are some major changes from the book (several characters got merged into a single one a couple of times. Rei is a combination of several characters from the book - There's bits of a character called Trepp as well as Rei - and Rei IS an ex-envoy like Tak, but she's not his sister in the book)
They merged his lover (sarah) with Quell (who was "dead" by the time he was born in the book. the unsettlement was "history" for him, he learned about it, he didn't live it. Sarah is the girl gunned down in the opening scene (but she lives in the book - on ice).

The biggest change is about-face that saw the Envoys go from the UN's arse kicking armoured boots (if your colony wants a revolution, the UN sends them in, and the revolt gets put down ... permanently.) in the book to the revolutionaries in the show.

Apart from that, I still liked the show. It's close enough, without being a complete clone of the book. I understand the changes were made in case they didn't get the go ahead for more seasons.

I'm rather happy with the Raven instead of the Hendrix, even though I've listened to an infinite times more Jimi Hendrix than I've read EAP books. It's been a nice way to inject a bit of humour into an otherwise dark world without breaking it.

 Nevelon wrote:
Question for someone who has read the books:

How much more source material is there to mine? While they did leave enough open doors to make more shows, will they be creating whole cloth, or are we just scratching the surface of the books?

The other two books take things away from Earth and let's you see that it's a bit of an oddity in the universe (something that's remarked on in the first book). Obviously same universe and technology, but not post-cyberpunk murder mystery on the homeworld stuff.

I'd say that the final two books probably open your eyes to ten times the amount of the setting of the universe, the Altered Carbon book itself is relatively "small" in its worldview - the show itself expands on more than the book.

The wife and I finished it a few days ago. Other than a couple of things annoyed me, I really enjoyed this movie! It really would be a cluster Fudge on the brain in a world like that and I feel they got the emotion right on as to "You're actually in this bit of tech, not the actual body" and that would be trippy as hell to deal with.

If they make more Id totally watch it

It is a very interesting concept.

I did quite like it. I thought the ending was pretty good. But Poe was by far the best character in it. Not bad for an AI.


I found it odd that every meth seems to turn into some kind of violent sex craved addict eventually. But I suppose if you live forever, you need more thrill in your life.

 War Drone wrote:


However, I still think it's the best sci-fi I've seen in years (any recommendations to change my opinion on that would be most welcome!)..

If you haven't seen The Expanse, it's a really solid show.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Along the lines of the Star Trek transporter thought experiment, isn't everyone who has changed sleeves just an AI walking around in a meat puppet? They're software which can be booted up, restarted and manipulated. Isn't the original person actually dead?

 Luciferian wrote:

Along the lines of the Star Trek transporter thought experiment, isn't everyone who has changed sleeves just an AI walking around in a meat puppet? They're software which can be booted up, restarted and manipulated. Isn't the original person actually dead?

One of the great existential questions.

That's what I love about themes like this. What does it mean to exist, to live? Does it just involve having all the right atoms in the right place or is there something more? A soul?

Is it about memories and personality? If you die, is it like falling asleep, only to wake up in another sleeve? If you fall asleep normally, you're kind of "offline" for a while, but then you wake up with your personality and memories (alcohol notwithstanding) intact. Is there a perceived difference?

This seems like a pretty good universe for committing crimes. Instead of having to sit in a cell and maybe die, your consciousness gets switched off and you wake up in the future. It's the discount version of being a Meth.

Pink Horror wrote:
This seems like a pretty good universe for committing crimes. Instead of having to sit in a cell and maybe die, your consciousness gets switched off and you wake up in the future. It's the discount version of being a Meth.

True, but it would still suck if you woke up in an entirely different environment and didn't know anyone, and you're still losing time you could have been alive and conscious. Plus, they put you in a random body.

Really enjoyed this show as original Sci-fi and would definitely watch more if they made it.

The only real gripe I had was the very end of the last episode where everyone stood around in a room and resolved all the outstanding mysteries like an episode of Scooby-Doo.

They should have been able to work the answers to those mysteries better into the course of the show rather than just having everyone stand around and spell it out.

 Chillreaper wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:

Along the lines of the Star Trek transporter thought experiment, isn't everyone who has changed sleeves just an AI walking around in a meat puppet? They're software which can be booted up, restarted and manipulated. Isn't the original person actually dead?

One of the great existential questions.

That's what I love about themes like this. What does it mean to exist, to live? Does it just involve having all the right atoms in the right place or is there something more? A soul?

Is it about memories and personality? If you die, is it like falling asleep, only to wake up in another sleeve? If you fall asleep normally, you're kind of "offline" for a while, but then you wake up with your personality and memories (alcohol notwithstanding) intact. Is there a perceived difference?

Hmm- the person has to be alive when their stack is inserted, from the show. I'd hazard a guess that during life the stack runs parallel to normal brain function, then the brain material continues to percolate in there if the body is killed in a way that doesn't destroy it.

I wondered if the stacks themselves were partially alive- it seemed they were originally crafted from alien tree seeds. In that case- how does this parasitic alien tree benefit from humanity? Is it driving abusers mad consciously in an effort to promote the destruction of a dangerous species?

The 'spun up' terminology used in the show implies that the conscious mind is dormant when a stack is not actively being run in virtual reality or a sleeve. Likewise the years of sensory deprivation didn't drive Kovacs any crazier than he was when he went in. My best guess is that it's like a game cartridge where you have all the elements of a mind except power- and without that thought and self are not possible.

And I have to say I love that Kovacs only really gets pissed once- and when he does he kills everyone, and cuts a huge swath of destruction.

 Chillreaper wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:

Along the lines of the Star Trek transporter thought experiment, isn't everyone who has changed sleeves just an AI walking around in a meat puppet? They're software which can be booted up, restarted and manipulated. Isn't the original person actually dead?

One of the great existential questions.

That's what I love about themes like this. What does it mean to exist, to live? Does it just involve having all the right atoms in the right place or is there something more? A soul?(1)

Is it about memories and personality? If you die, is it like falling asleep, only to wake up in another sleeve? If you fall asleep normally, you're kind of "offline" for a while, but then you wake up with your personality and memories (alcohol notwithstanding) intact. Is there a perceived difference?(2)

1. Almost certainly not. At least, given what we've learned about how the brain and consciousness work since the concept of "souls" was the mainstream explanation for it, nothing about the concept is necessary, and since it's not falsifiable it's pretty safe to assume there's probably no such thing.

2. They're not the same. Assuming we're not resorting to strict solipsism(a worthless philosophy if ever there was one), an objective reality exists beyond our own skulls, and in that objective reality your brain was still functioning while you were sleeping. It's functioning in a different way, but there is measurable neurological activity in areas of the brain that indicate the potential to return to full consciousness still exists. Actual death and brain-death are the same thing - consciousness is, based on all we've learned(which is by no means everything), an emergent process resulting from electrical activity within the physical substrate of the brain as a result of stimuli, that's all. It's a sophisticated learning algorithm that analyses and self-justifies after the fact, feeding back into the brain to cause changes to the physical substrate to affect future responses. Meaning no substrate, no emergent process; no brain, no you.

As far as I can tell, Altered Carbon uses magical alien space-metal or somesuch to insist that Stacks somehow do contain you, but in reality if the brain you were born with stops functioning, you are dead and gone forever.

Now, if it became possible somehow to copy your consciousness and digitise it, or even to create a perfect, flawless, functioning duplicate of your body & brain right down to the subatomic level, those beings are still not you. They might be indistinguishable from you to an outside observer, if you were to step into a machine that vapourised you and created a flawless copy standing in exactly the same place then the world at large wouldn't know the difference and even the copy may not know the difference, but you and it are not the same entity, and there's a simple thought experiment to prove it - alter the machine so that it creates the flawless copy without killing you. Now you both exist and from the instant that you both do, you will begin diverging, first in tiny immeasurable ways on the quantum scale, but as time passes more and more, to the point that if you were to separate and live your lives and meet again in ten years you would be almost strangers, it would be like running into a really old friend from school in your 40's - there would be behaviours and physical tics you'd recognise, but they would almost certainly be radically different to both how you remember yourself as being at the point of duplication, and how you would be at the time you met up again.

No matter how you set up the scenario to create a new version of yourself, they will always be a copy, and you will be gone. Now, that doesn't matter to the copy, which is extant and conscious and its own being, and you were replaced without anyone's knowledge the universe at large wouldn't be affected, but you would have ceased to exist.

In short - you are your brain, and when it's gone you go with it.


EDIT: Though, thinking about it, I suppose AC's method technically might still count so long as your original stack survives, since if it slowly supplants your biological substrate after implantation while maintaining continuity of neural function, and eventually fully *becomes* your substrate, then it would still be you even if you transplanted it into another body. The beaming consciousnesses around to different planets or being resurrected by uploading a copy of you into a new stack is still not tenable though - basically all you'd have done was replace your squishy bio-substrate with a more durable and long-lasting artificial one, if your head gets melted off by a plasmagun you would be just as dead and gone as if said squishy bio-substrate has been turned to mush.

I've never read the books, so I went into this completely blind. Finished watching the series. I really enjoyed it.

I looked over the changes they made, and really they seem either logical or necessary. They couldn't use Jimmy Hendrix, so instead we got a great new character (Poe), and making Rei into Tak's sister rather than Random Bitch #44-B makes it all the more personal ("Make it personal!").

So yeah, this was very good. I hope they do another season.

while i vaguely remember reading the book when i was in highschool, i can't say i recalled much of it.

never the less, i enjoyed the hell out of show as i powered through it today during a day off from work

Kept holding off because the wife said she was interested. She watched one episode and didnt care for it so I finally got to power thru it this weekend. Really enjoyed. I'll be sad if the main guy doesn't come back for season 2.