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 Nightlord1987 wrote:
AL fluff is all over the place right now. I liked them better when For the Emperor was them just being sarcastic and mocking.

Their fluff writers must have had a What If: moment and tried to make them actually For the Emperor. Whoa, what a twist!!!

I think a better focus should have been Alpharius/Omegon, one loyal, one Traitor, and the divide of the Legion because of that. The whole started out trying to save the Imperium but now they got caught up in covert scheming so much they don't even know their own agenda tries too hard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They could have had Chaos Alphas doing the mustache twirling, but also note some other Alphas disrupting Chaos forces as well. Even working with unknowing Guard forces and what not. Or Alpha forces turning on each other.

I mean... Maybe that stuff is out there, but I haven't read any of it.

Well I think you will be pleased that it seems GW has gone back on the loyalist AL idea. They are very much a traitor legion in the current fluff.

Table wrote:
All statements going forward are colored by the 8th edition codex.

Ive seen posts that people wonder if the alpha legion is infact against the imperium or that they dont worship chaos. This puzzles me greatly because there are PLENTY of fluff examples of the AL causing much harm to imperials and supporting the other traitor legions. Infact much of the recent fluff that has come to pass that hurt or outright caused the downfall of the imperium had major AL involvement. Correct me if im wrong, but the catalyst for the recent split of the empire was the planet of sorcs coming into real space. That happend due to the Tsons, but they in turn relied of AL support to pull the act off.

My point is this. the fluff clearly states the AL has been a horrible thorn in the side of the empire since the HH. At no point have they hurt or hindered their brother traitor legions. Why do people still insist that the AL is not allied to chaos? Now the fluff is shaky on the actual levels of devotion of the AL to the chaos gods. Its obvious they recognize the gods and do work in their favor. While I have found no examples fluff wise of AL troops being marked, I have also not found any fluff to argue that they cant be marked. The rules allow them to be marked and take ALL available cult troops.

I admit my grasp of the fluff is minimal, and that is why im making this thread.

It's due to two pages in the book Legion, where some xenos scum shows Alpharius that if Horus wins, he eventually gets a bad conscience and kills off humanity, which somehow is supposed to destroy Chaos/The Primordial Annihilator. If Horus loses, the galaxy is flung into a state of perpetual war. Thus, Alpharius aids Horus (it's hinted the Isstvan Dropsite Massacre was planned by Alpharius in Extermination).

However, Horus lost anyway. At that point, I imagine it's a bit difficult for the Alpha Legion to just "uuuh, sorry about that practical joke, can we rejoin the Imperium?"

After the Heresy, the Alpha Legion was the sole Traitor Legion to not enter the Eye of Terror. Instead, they disappeared in the galactic east. In the old fluff, they generally operated quite far away from the Eye, where it was harder to summon Daemons, and were also stated as having less mutations than most other Traitors, though it would still occur.

There's also plenty of Horus Heresy fluff about Alpha Legionnaires killing Alpha Legionnaires, Traitors, and Loyalists. However, there's a pattern to whom they can beat, where the only recorded victories are Paramar (almost a Pyrrhic one at that), some Mechanicus ship, and the Dropsite Massacre. So unless it's wholly unimportant or they have overwhelming numbers, they always lose (though sometimes not even that is enough). Otherwise, they always get their asses handed to them and Scooby Doo and the gang remove their masks.

As a wee sidenote, there's an error in the 8th edition codex. Tallarn is stated as an Alpha Legion win, but it's Iron Warriors. IIRC, there was a single Alpha Legionnaire there or so.

 Big Mac wrote:
There are fluff of AL killing traitor legionaires, one example was them impersonate a iron warrior ship captain after killing him for a mission. Another was Omegon killing his own AL squad after a mission to silent them for no obvious reason.

The main reason people think the AL are still loyal is that there is a interaction between a seer and Alpharius, where the portent saying the AL must support Horus in order to help the imperium in the big picture. Its so confusing that no one know where their loyalty lies.

What? Which novel is that? Are you thinking of the Serpent Beneath? Because then you've totally misunderstood.

Table wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
Back in the Realms of Chaos days, there was a plotline involving a Cabal of various xenos and humans that knew about the threat of chaos, as well as being able to see likely outcomes of humanity's interactions with it. Alpharius and the Alpha Legion were very loyal to the Emperor and mankind, but being the masters of cunning and subterfuge they were, the Cabal contacted Alpharius and convinced him that in order to truly defeat Chaos and prevent it from consuming all sentient life in the galaxy, the Imperium of Man must be destroyed by Horus' civil war. So Alpharius backed Horus in order to stick it to Chaos. However, Horus failed, and so did the plans of the Cabal.

Thank you very much for the information!

Realm of Chaos is very old and counteracts the current fluff. But now I see where people are drawing the idea from. And honestly, I think I prefer this version of the AL to the current chaos legion one.

It's not Realm of Chaos, it's in Legion by Dan Abnett, which is, as far as 40k goes, new. Unless it's in both.

 ChazSexington wrote:

Table wrote:
All statements going forward are colored by the 8th edition codex.

Ive seen posts that people wonder if the alpha legion is infact against the imperium or that they dont worship chaos. This puzzles me greatly because there are PLENTY of fluff examples of the AL causing much harm to imperials and supporting the other traitor legions. Infact much of the recent fluff that has come to pass that hurt or outright caused the downfall of the imperium had major AL involvement. Correct me if im wrong, but the catalyst for the recent split of the empire was the planet of sorcs coming into real space. That happend due to the Tsons, but they in turn relied of AL support to pull the act off.

My point is this. the fluff clearly states the AL has been a horrible thorn in the side of the empire since the HH. At no point have they hurt or hindered their brother traitor legions. Why do people still insist that the AL is not allied to chaos? Now the fluff is shaky on the actual levels of devotion of the AL to the chaos gods. Its obvious they recognize the gods and do work in their favor. While I have found no examples fluff wise of AL troops being marked, I have also not found any fluff to argue that they cant be marked. The rules allow them to be marked and take ALL available cult troops.

I admit my grasp of the fluff is minimal, and that is why im making this thread.

It's due to two pages in the book Legion, where some xenos scum shows Alpharius that if Horus wins, he eventually gets a bad conscience and kills off humanity, which somehow is supposed to destroy Chaos/The Primordial Annihilator. If Horus loses, the galaxy is flung into a state of perpetual war. Thus, Alpharius aids Horus (it's hinted the Isstvan Dropsite Massacre was planned by Alpharius in Extermination).

However, Horus lost anyway. At that point, I imagine it's a bit difficult for the Alpha Legion to just "uuuh, sorry about that practical joke, can we rejoin the Imperium?"

After the Heresy, the Alpha Legion was the sole Traitor Legion to not enter the Eye of Terror. Instead, they disappeared in the galactic east. In the old fluff, they generally operated quite far away from the Eye, where it was harder to summon Daemons, and were also stated as having less mutations than most other Traitors, though it would still occur.

There's also plenty of Horus Heresy fluff about Alpha Legionnaires killing Alpha Legionnaires, Traitors, and Loyalists. However, there's a pattern to whom they can beat, where the only recorded victories are Paramar (almost a Pyrrhic one at that), some Mechanicus ship, and the Dropsite Massacre. So unless it's wholly unimportant or they have overwhelming numbers, they always lose (though sometimes not even that is enough). Otherwise, they always get their asses handed to them and Scooby Doo and the gang remove their masks.

As a wee sidenote, there's an error in the 8th edition codex. Tallarn is stated as an Alpha Legion win, but it's Iron Warriors. IIRC, there was a single Alpha Legionnaire there or so.

 Big Mac wrote:
There are fluff of AL killing traitor legionaires, one example was them impersonate a iron warrior ship captain after killing him for a mission. Another was Omegon killing his own AL squad after a mission to silent them for no obvious reason.

The main reason people think the AL are still loyal is that there is a interaction between a seer and Alpharius, where the portent saying the AL must support Horus in order to help the imperium in the big picture. Its so confusing that no one know where their loyalty lies.

What? Which novel is that? Are you thinking of the Serpent Beneath? Because then you've totally misunderstood.

Table wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
Back in the Realms of Chaos days, there was a plotline involving a Cabal of various xenos and humans that knew about the threat of chaos, as well as being able to see likely outcomes of humanity's interactions with it. Alpharius and the Alpha Legion were very loyal to the Emperor and mankind, but being the masters of cunning and subterfuge they were, the Cabal contacted Alpharius and convinced him that in order to truly defeat Chaos and prevent it from consuming all sentient life in the galaxy, the Imperium of Man must be destroyed by Horus' civil war. So Alpharius backed Horus in order to stick it to Chaos. However, Horus failed, and so did the plans of the Cabal.

Thank you very much for the information!

Realm of Chaos is very old and counteracts the current fluff. But now I see where people are drawing the idea from. And honestly, I think I prefer this version of the AL to the current chaos legion one.

It's not Realm of Chaos, it's in Legion by Dan Abnett, which is, as far as 40k goes, new. Unless it's in both.

But my point remains. When looking at the 8th edition chaos codex you can find many examples of Alphas doing things that firmly puts them in the chaos camp. You do not become a demon prince by sabotaging the chaos gods, well...depending on the sabotage. My point is that for all the legion has done in the current lore there is no way anyone can say they are anything other than a traitor legion dedicated to chaos. Retcon can be hard, esp when it takes alot of flavor out of the setting, but unfortunatly codex lore is as close to canon as you can get in 40k and the codex says they are now sneaky and mysterious bad guys.

And once more, I dont like that. I hated the necron retcon as well.

I think that's where you're running into trouble, though, is treating codex lore as an omniscient narrator. Lots of GW fluff is inherently contradictory, often by design. The Horus Heresy novels, which are still being written, tend to have the final word in what's actually going on in terms of canon for that time period. And the novel Legion really calls the Alpha Legion's motive into question, as do the following novels that involve them. There are *plenty* of examples of them counteracting their "brothers" operations.

The Codices are really an introduction to faction lore, not the end-all be-all of the story. They provide questions and hints that are answered or expanded on in other places. The Horus Heresy novels are by no means outdated in any way, shape or form. That would defeat the purpose of the entire project.

However, my caveat is that is the truth for the Horus Heresy, and that story isn't completed yet. What happens to the Alpha Legion between then and the 40k universe could see them turning entirely to Chaos, or not, or anything in between. The truth of the matter is we don't know, and that's what makes the Alpha Legion so compelling.

Table wrote:


But my point remains. When looking at the 8th edition chaos codex you can find many examples of Alphas doing things that firmly puts them in the chaos camp. You do not become a demon prince by sabotaging the chaos gods, well...depending on the sabotage. My point is that for all the legion has done in the current lore there is no way anyone can say they are anything other than a traitor legion dedicated to chaos. Retcon can be hard, esp when it takes alot of flavor out of the setting, but unfortunatly codex lore is as close to canon as you can get in 40k and the codex says they are now sneaky and mysterious bad guys.

And once more, I dont like that. I hated the necron retcon as well.

I don't believe I was contradicting you, at least that was not my intention. They are certainly Chaos now.

 ChazSexington wrote:

Table wrote:


But my point remains. When looking at the 8th edition chaos codex you can find many examples of Alphas doing things that firmly puts them in the chaos camp. You do not become a demon prince by sabotaging the chaos gods, well...depending on the sabotage. My point is that for all the legion has done in the current lore there is no way anyone can say they are anything other than a traitor legion dedicated to chaos. Retcon can be hard, esp when it takes alot of flavor out of the setting, but unfortunatly codex lore is as close to canon as you can get in 40k and the codex says they are now sneaky and mysterious bad guys.

And once more, I dont like that. I hated the necron retcon as well.

I don't believe I was contradicting you, at least that was not my intention. They are certainly Chaos now.

I feel like saying "certainly" in regards to ANYTHING concerning the AL is an oxymoron.

Someone else pointed it out, but the codexes are *not* an unbiased source of information. Their "narrators" are often spitting propaganda not fact.

The Tau codex would have us believe they're on the cusp of ruling the entire galaxy.\

The AM codex talks about the Emperor's hammer, and how nothing can withstand them.

The fact is you should take everything from the codexes with a grain of salt. So saying a few pages from the CSM codex "proves" they're fully Chaos now is inherently incorrect,

And again, this is the Alpha Legion we're talking about here. NOTHING said about them is the whole truth, that like their one and only schtick.

Eh, I think some of you are giving way too much thought to them somehow not being traitor marines. Does it really matter, in the end, why they turned traitor? Horus started out with different intentions as well, didn’t matter in the end.

They gave up on the Emperor and the Imperium, full stop. Their primarchs let some xenos scum convince them the Emperor couldn’t win, and so by their actions tried to ensure not only would the Emperor not win but he’d lose hard.

All the AL ended up doing is damning the galaxy to millennia of conflict; ironically the one thing they supposedly tried to avoid.

All of the traitor legions had dissidents and loyalists in them when their primarchs turned. Even if one of the AL primarchs was secretly still a loyalist doesn’t change that in the end, when it really mattered, the AL definitely fought against the Emperor and were instrumental in the Heresy.

The story in Legion simply explains why they turned. They thought they were doing the right thing. They thought they would in the end save humanity from Chaos and itself by killing the Emperor, etc... sounds.... just like all the other traitor legions.

If the books are anything to go by, the alpha legion abandoned the cabals plans early on, I believe it was alpharius that blew there representative out the airlock, they knew what was at stake and thought they could achieve it without the cabals help, turns out looking back they were wrong.

As for the alpha legion all being chaos, many heads of the hydra, some are some are not, some are probably trying to achieve here mission, even 10k years after, others simply don't care.

I have a head Canon that when the primarchs where scattered that he-who-would-be omegon was put on a planet with a demon.

This demon would take the name alpharius and raise omegon, claiming to be his brother. He influences omegons moral compass and teaches him some level of biomancy (A.k.a shape change).

At some point omegon finds out about alpharius being a demon, this starts a split in the legion. A majority of the legion follows alpharius to chaos while omegon and a small contingent are loyal to the emperor. But because subterfuge is omegons specialty and that's how he fights, he spends time on both sides subtly changing the outcome of battles.

Way back in 2nd ed when i started, before there was any question they were traitors, the Alphas still looked down thier noses at chaos worship. They were the anti-wordbearers, they fought for their own pride and glory not for any god. They wage thier shadow war against the Imperium to show they can.
They were known to use cult troops or demons as auxiliaries but rarely did the actual Legionaries take marks of chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My own chaos warband is Alpha Legion, but the Alpha chaos Lord is a figurehead. Power behind the throne is a Tzeentch sorcerer (from the World Eaters) who guides things.

You are correct. We must destroy and eliminate all of the chaos marines.

Carlovonsexron wrote:
How canon are the “imperial primer” blog posts? They definitely have an entry where some Alphas as posing as Ultramarines to fight the deathguard for no apparent reason other than to see the death guard defeated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
*note- I mean “regimental standard”， not imperial primer!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And here's the entry I was thinking of, with the Imperium reinforced by the “ Alphic Hydras”
https://regimental-standard.com/2017/08/30/konor-war-diaries-part-6-loebos/

Regimental Standard is my primary source of canon!

Edit: The AL in this story don't really seem to be fighting the Death Guard, it seems to me they are using an operative to sabotague the AM's resistance against the DG by making poor suggestions of how to fight them (removing breathing equipment, using long range weaponry for close quarter fighting and so on).