Relative "power" of Ork Gargants compared to Imperial Titans

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**Deadshot**

Imperial Titans are more powerful. Not necessarily larger, but "better" pound for pound, kind of like how Space Marines - Ork boys are similar but better.

Stompa = Knight
Mek Stompa (or custom Dakka stompa or something) = Knight Dominus
Gargant = Warhound
Great/Mek/Super Duper Gargant = Reaver
Mega- Gargant = or better than Warlord depending on source.

There's nothing really on par with an Imperator Titan except another Imperator, or the one super massive Chaos Titan I can't recall the name of. Its secondary carapace weapons are the same as the main weapons on smaller titans, and its main arm weapons are up-powered versions of those again. They have more void shields than anything bar a starship. In their old 4th/5th Ed rules they have 8 void shields (Warhound had 2, Reaver 4, Warlord 6) and 12 Structure points (Warhound 3, Reaver 6, Warlord 9). In 6th/7th Ed terms, that's 36 Hull Points, which I suppose if going by rough 7th/8th wounds to HP ratio, would mean around 120 wounds.

Imperator Titans are pretty much a "I win" button. Its the boss at the end of the secret mission who can read button inputs, has 3 stages with full reset whe you get him to 0 the first time, and can shoot all targets simultaneously.

**Andykp**

Deadshot wrote:
Imperial Titans are more powerful. Not necessarily larger, but "better" pound for pound, kind of like how Space Marines - Ork boys are similar but better.

Stompa = Knight
Mek Stompa (or custom Dakka stompa or something) = Knight Dominus
Gargant = Warhound
Great/Mek/Super Duper Gargant = Reaver
Mega- Gargant = or better than Warlord depending on source.

There's nothing really on par with an Imperator Titan except another Imperator, or the one super massive Chaos Titan I can't recall the name of. Its secondary carapace weapons are the same as the main weapons on smaller titans, and its main arm weapons are up-powered versions of those again. They have more void shields than anything bar a starship. In their old 4th/5th Ed rules they have 8 void shields (Warhound had 2, Reaver 4, Warlord 6) and 12 Structure points (Warhound 3, Reaver 6, Warlord 9). In 6th/7th Ed terms, that's 36 Hull Points, which I suppose if going by rough 7th/8th wounds to HP ratio, would mean around 120 wounds.

Imperator Titans are pretty much a "I win" button. Its the boss at the end of the secret mission who can read button inputs, has 3 stages with full reset whe you get him to 0 the first time, and can shoot all targets simultaneously.

Disagree on the warlord and below analogies but agree on the imperator, that thing is the daddy and rightly so. One on one nothing can match it.

**AndrewGPaul**

Also, the "Mekboy gargant" is strictly smaller than the ordinary Gargant.

As seen here.

**Mr Morden**

Deadshot wrote:
Imperial Titans are more powerful. Not necessarily larger, but "better" pound for pound, kind of like how Space Marines - Ork boys are similar but better.

Stompa = Knight
Mek Stompa (or custom Dakka stompa or something) = Knight Dominus
Gargant = Warhound
Great/Mek/Super Duper Gargant = Reaver
Mega- Gargant = or better than Warlord depending on source.

There's nothing really on par with an Imperator Titan except another Imperator, or the one super massive Chaos Titan I can't recall the name of. Its secondary carapace weapons are the same as the main weapons on smaller titans, and its main arm weapons are up-powered versions of those again. They have more void shields than anything bar a starship. In their old 4th/5th Ed rules they have 8 void shields (Warhound had 2, Reaver 4, Warlord 6) and 12 Structure points (Warhound 3, Reaver 6, Warlord 9). In 6th/7th Ed terms, that's 36 Hull Points, which I suppose if going by rough 7th/8th wounds to HP ratio, would mean around 120 wounds.

Imperator Titans are pretty much a "I win" button. Its the boss at the end of the secret mission who can read button inputs, has 3 stages with full reset whe you get him to 0 the first time, and can shoot all targets simultaneously.

Mostly right I think. However the upper limit on size and power on Orks gargants is harder to determine.

I am aware of only one lore engagment between an Imperator and a Mega Gargant - Storm Herald vs Godbreaker. Both had been engaged with lesser engines before. They were fairly evenly matched until the Storm Herald missed with its primary armament and was overwhelmed with weight of fire and was destroyed and although suffering consdierable damage in the battle the Ork engine was subsequently able to destroy a Warlord Titan in minutes and lesser Titans in seconds.
.
Then again Godbreaker was likely a giant version of a Mega Gargant?

**Andykp**

Mr Morden wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
Imperial Titans are more powerful. Not necessarily larger, but "better" pound for pound, kind of like how Space Marines - Ork boys are similar but better.

Stompa = Knight
Mek Stompa (or custom Dakka stompa or something) = Knight Dominus
Gargant = Warhound
Great/Mek/Super Duper Gargant = Reaver
Mega- Gargant = or better than Warlord depending on source.

There's nothing really on par with an Imperator Titan except another Imperator, or the one super massive Chaos Titan I can't recall the name of. Its secondary carapace weapons are the same as the main weapons on smaller titans, and its main arm weapons are up-powered versions of those again. They have more void shields than anything bar a starship. In their old 4th/5th Ed rules they have 8 void shields (Warhound had 2, Reaver 4, Warlord 6) and 12 Structure points (Warhound 3, Reaver 6, Warlord 9). In 6th/7th Ed terms, that's 36 Hull Points, which I suppose if going by rough 7th/8th wounds to HP ratio, would mean around 120 wounds.

Imperator Titans are pretty much a "I win" button. Its the boss at the end of the secret mission who can read button inputs, has 3 stages with full reset whe you get him to 0 the first time, and can shoot all targets simultaneously.

Mostly right I think. However the upper limit on size and power on Orks gargants is harder to determine.

I am aware of only one lore engagment between an Imperator and a Mega Gargant - Storm Herald vs Godbreaker. Both had been engaged with lesser engines before. They were fairly evenly matched until the Storm Herald missed with its primary armament and was overwhelmed with weight of fire and was destroyed and although suffering consdierable damage in the battle the Ork engine was subsequently able to destroy a Warlord Titan in minutes and lesser Titans in seconds.
.
Then again Godbreaker was likely a giant version of a Mega Gargant?

Back in the day in the Titan legion boxed set you got two mega gargants to a one imperator, I know there were other things in the box too but the power level of one was about 2/3 or maybe 3/4 that of an imperator.

**Billagio**

ID agree that the upper limit is hard to determine. As we saw with War of the Beast, unchecked Ork tech can do some crazy gak (Attack Moons), there was also the Temple Palace on Ullanor was actually a "Gargant beyond classification" and was termed a "super weapon" and even had stompas INSIDE OF IT as guards. Granted that has only been seen once (that I know of), but its worth mentioning. Your "Average" mega gargant is probably weaker than an Imperator though

**Andykp**

I hate the way black library handles ORKS recently. It’s all very silly “make it bigger and make it have more guns” childishness. They used to have a dramatic scale without going stupidly crazy about it. A gargant is big enough and scary enough without being silly. The only recent read I enjoyed with ORKS in where they were anything but the Baddie was the evil suns novella. Beast books were garbage and a huge disappointment.

**pm713**

Andykp wrote:
I hate the way black library handles ORKS recently. It’s all very silly “make it bigger and make it have more guns” childishness. They used to have a dramatic scale without going stupidly crazy about it. A gargant is big enough and scary enough without being silly. The only recent read I enjoyed with ORKS in where they were anything but the Baddie was the evil suns novella. Beast books were garbage and a huge disappointment.

Welcome to being flanderised like so many others. GW will hype up one aspect of races that they think is "their thing" until it becomes ridiculous.

**Dakka Flakka Flame**

Mr Morden wrote:

The last Knight book from Andy Clark has some great bits with Orks vs Knight Households(not just Knights but the households have air support, infantry and vehicles including bane blade sized crawlers) including all the various Orky war machines - Great Gargants and the like - one has a very nasty super powerful EMP style gun arm which wreaks havoc.

I didn't know about that book, thanks! Would I need to read Kingsblade in order to enjoy Knightsblade?

I'm trying to eventually read all Black Library books featuring the orks, but there are a lot of then and AFAIK no big list of every book that has them.

**Mr Morden**

Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:

The last Knight book from Andy Clark has some great bits with Orks vs Knight Households(not just Knights but the households have air support, infantry and vehicles including bane blade sized crawlers) including all the various Orky war machines - Great Gargants and the like - one has a very nasty super powerful EMP style gun arm which wreaks havoc.

I didn't know about that book, thanks! Would I need to read Kingsblade in order to enjoy Knightsblade?

I'm trying to eventually read all Black Library books featuring the orks, but there are a lot of then and AFAIK no big list of every book that has them.

I would recomend reading them in order - but its not essential.

It has lots of great stuff and good characters - the Orks do kick ass even against a Knight world with hundreds of Knights, well organised defences and support.

Have you read Imperial Glory very dark book - especially when the Orks really go to war. https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/novels/imperial-glory-ebook.html

Helsreach - obviously.

**Dai**

Just a small correction on the old Titan Legions game. It actually gave you two Imperators. One was cardboard but nevertheless. Cardboard pictures on stands for characters/monsters/vehicles were common in the early 90's starter sets.

Proof on the left

Spoiler:

This is not of course to say they were equal, I'm just a huge pedant!

**Andykp**

Dai wrote:
Just a small correction on the old Titan Legions game. It actually gave you two Imperators. One was cardboard but nevertheless. Cardboard pictures on stands for characters/monsters/vehicles were common in the early 90's starter sets.

Proof on the left

Spoiler:

This is not of course to say they were equal, I'm just a huge pedant!

But it only gave the one huge data card thing you needed to play it!

**Dakka Flakka Flame**

Mr Morden wrote:

Spoiler:

Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:

The last Knight book from Andy Clark has some great bits with Orks vs Knight Households(not just Knights but the households have air support, infantry and vehicles including bane blade sized crawlers) including all the various Orky war machines - Great Gargants and the like - one has a very nasty super powerful EMP style gun arm which wreaks havoc.

I didn't know about that book, thanks! Would I need to read Kingsblade in order to enjoy Knightsblade?

I'm trying to eventually read all Black Library books featuring the orks, but there are a lot of then and AFAIK no big list of every book that has them.

I would recomend reading them in order - but its not essential.

It has lots of great stuff and good characters - the Orks do kick ass even against a Knight world with hundreds of Knights, well organised defences and support.

Have you read Imperial Glory very dark book - especially when the Orks really go to war. https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/novels/imperial-glory-ebook.html

Helsreach - obviously.

Thanks, I ordered both of them then. I also hadn't read Imperial Glory, I'll check that out. I have read Helsreach.

I'm having a hard time thinking of very many books that have had Imperial Titans fighting Gargants in detail.
Helsreach had quite a bit of Titans vs Gargants. More than any other book I can think of.
The Beast Arises had lots of Gargants, and they did fight Titans, although the focus was more on what the Space Marines and IG were doing.
Rynn's World had Titans fighting Gargants near the very end, but that was as the story was wrapping up and they mostly glossed over it.
Baneblade has a lot about a Gargant, but it doesn't fight any Titans that I can remember.
Evil Sun Rising has Stompas fighting Knights, but I don't remember any larger walkers.

I'm sure the Epic books had a lot more in them. I need to track down some used copies of them. I also need to dig up my opy of IA:8 and see if it has anything.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:
I hate the way black library handles ORKS recently. It’s all very silly “make it bigger and make it have more guns” childishness. They used to have a dramatic scale without going stupidly crazy about it. A gargant is big enough and scary enough without being silly. The only recent read I enjoyed with ORKS in where they were anything but the Baddie was the evil suns novella. Beast books were garbage and a huge disappointment.

I think the "make it bigger and have more guns" thing has applied much more to the Space Marines than the Orks over the past decade.

I agree that Guy Haley's novellas and audio dramas have been really good.

**Andykp**

I’d like to see some more stories where the ORKS are the lead not the villain.

**bibotot**

In the graphic novel Titan Warlord by Dan Adnett, the Warlord Titan has no problem taking down the Ork Gargant of equivalent size.

Imperial Titans are more powerful, but probably because they are crewed by Princeps who control the machine with their minds as if they are controlling their own bodies. Ork Titans are controlled by dozens of Meks and individual parts require Gretchin or Ork Boyz to man.

**tneva82**

Deadshot wrote:
Imperial Titans are more powerful. Not necessarily larger, but "better" pound for pound, kind of like how Space Marines - Ork boys are similar but better.

Stompa = Knight
Mek Stompa (or custom Dakka stompa or something) = Knight Dominus
Gargant = Warhound
Great/Mek/Super Duper Gargant = Reaver
Mega- Gargant = or better than Warlord depending on source.

And where you read that gargant, lot bigger than warhound, would be equilavent of warhound?

Also mek stompa is size wise more like warhound than knight.

**Tygre**

Looking back at the old epic books, I think it supposed to be:

Mega Gargant = Imperator
Great Gargant = Warlord
Slasher Gargant = Reaver
Mekboy Gargant = Warhound
Stompers = Knights.

Of course the fluff normally has an Imperial bias and plot armour. Except for Imperial Imperator titans which suffer from the Wharf effect.

I think it might be like Imperial and Ork Dreadnoughts. They are the same class but the Imperial ones have a qualitative advantage.

**tneva82**

Well. Looking at fluff Armageddon has ~5 legios worth of titans and 110 gargants. How many titans would 5 legions have?

**Tygre**

How long is a piece of string.

**BrianDavion**

tneva82 wrote:
Well. Looking at fluff Armageddon has ~5 legios worth of titans and 110 gargants. How many titans would 5 legions have?

I suspect it had elements of 5 titan legions, not the entire legions themselves. as for how big a titan legion is it varies from forge world to forge world. during the Heresy the biggest ones where 150-200 or so odd titans.

**Mr Morden**

tneva82 wrote:
Well. Looking at fluff Armageddon has ~5 legios worth of titans and 110 gargants. How many titans would 5 legions have?

If you go by Helsreach - The "Crone" commanded about a third of her Legion which was about 30 Engines including several Warlords and 1 Imperator.

**Tygre**

Mr Morden wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Well. Looking at fluff Armageddon has ~5 legios worth of titans and 110 gargants. How many titans would 5 legions have?

If you go by Helsreach - The "Crone" commanded about a third of her Legion which was about 30 Engines including several Warlords and 1 Imperator.

So if 30ish Engines is a third of a legion; then a legion is roughly 90 to 100 Engines. So ~5 Legios would be 450 to 500 Engines. So, unless a large proportion of those Gargants were Mega Gargants, the Orks were heavily outgunned in the God Machines department.

**Delvarus Centurion**

Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I'm curious as to what people think the relative power of Ork Gargants are compared to their Imperial counterparts.

A few things:
By "power" I primarily mean their ability to kill things and their durability, and not secondary roles such as troop transport and morale booster.
I'm thinking more in terms of the background lore and stories rather than tabletop performance and points costs.
I recognize that Ork Gargants come in a bewildering variety of sizes and loadouts, but I'm thinking about an "average" example of the most common classifications.
My understanding is that the Stompa of modern 40k is more like the Supa Stompa of Epic in terms of size. Lets assume that I'm referring to the modern 40k Stompa.
Let's not get too far down the rabbit hole of "if Orks believe it is better then it is better". Let's also not buy too much into the Imperial propaganda about Orks, as some in-universe stuff isn't from a reliable or well-informed narrator.

I hope that when I say "half step" and "full step" I'm making sense. What I mean is if a Great Gargant is a half-step below it's Imperial equivalent it would be less powerful than a Warlord Titan but more powerful than a Reaver Titan. If it was a full step below a Warlord (which is generally considered to be its equivalent) it would be on equal footing with a Reaver.

I made this probably unnecessary image to help illustrate my point. Hopefully it doesn't just make things more confusing.

I think they should be near the same level but not equal as a) the Imperiums tech is so much better and b) Titans are kinda the Imperiums thing.

**Andykp**

Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I'm curious as to what people think the relative power of Ork Gargants are compared to their Imperial counterparts.

A few things:
By "power" I primarily mean their ability to kill things and their durability, and not secondary roles such as troop transport and morale booster.
I'm thinking more in terms of the background lore and stories rather than tabletop performance and points costs.
I recognize that Ork Gargants come in a bewildering variety of sizes and loadouts, but I'm thinking about an "average" example of the most common classifications.
My understanding is that the Stompa of modern 40k is more like the Supa Stompa of Epic in terms of size. Lets assume that I'm referring to the modern 40k Stompa.
Let's not get too far down the rabbit hole of "if Orks believe it is better then it is better". Let's also not buy too much into the Imperial propaganda about Orks, as some in-universe stuff isn't from a reliable or well-informed narrator.

I hope that when I say "half step" and "full step" I'm making sense. What I mean is if a Great Gargant is a half-step below it's Imperial equivalent it would be less powerful than a Warlord Titan but more powerful than a Reaver Titan. If it was a full step below a Warlord (which is generally considered to be its equivalent) it would be on equal footing with a Reaver.

I made this probably unnecessary image to help illustrate my point. Hopefully it doesn't just make things more confusing.

I think they should be near the same level but not equal as a) the Imperiums tech is so much better and b) Titans are kinda the Imperiums thing.

Imperial tech is better! Rubbish! ORK tech is the best in the galaxy!

But I agree. Warlord is equivalent of great gargant and is better due to being reliable and mobile. Gargant can beat one on a good day but might well break down at the wrong moment and get destroyed. Slasher was always equivalent of reaver. Mek is similar size to warhound but different role, not a scout. Stompas weren’t really gargants more like knights.

A great gargant had more, but weaker firepower,. A warlord was a few powerful weapons. G.Gargants were slow to control while warlords had MIU. Warlords were tough but gargants could soak up damage. Another disadvantage for ORKS was powerifelda which couldn’t be restored like void shields, but a great gargant could have up to 12 as Appleseed to 6.

This has always been the standard in epic although I didn’t play Armageddon to did all the others.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also ignore stories in books about what imperial stuff can do, if we believed that marines should have 50 wounds and 40 attacks.

**Dakka Flakka Flame**

Andykp wrote:

Also ignore stories in books about what imperial stuff can do, if we believed that marines should have 50 wounds and 40 attacks.

I have to disagree with this last bit, considering we're in the background section.

Yeah the BL authors are inconsistent, often make up numbers that don't make any sort of sense, and tend to write with an Imperial bias (whether intentional as part of reflecting the propagandic beliefs common in the Imperium or just because Imperials tend to be the protagonists). The books are still highly relevant.

On the tabletop the differences between things are generally flattened to make for better gameplay. Yeah, if we applied BL standards to the tabletop a Space Marine might have fifty wounds and attacks, but if we applied tabletop rules to BL a handful of cultists would be able to easily riflebutt a Space Marine to death (not to mention weirder things like flamers being the most effective air defence).

**Formosa**

The beasts ultra gargant could not only fly but could take starship weaponry and shrug it off, it’s easily on par with an imperitor Titan if not Better.

The harder you push Orks, the harder they push back.

**Andykp**

The beast books are a classic example of black library taking things to ludicrous levels if we are talking gargants vs titans the old epic games Are the only real comparisons we have. Literature tends to favour the heroes in the books. Or a super villain.

No two ORK vehicles are the same but for game purposes they are classified as such.

**gnome_idea_what**

The Beast series is far off the bell curve for orks in many ways, from sophistication to technological achievement to physical traits in the case of the Beast himself and his warbosses. Much of it can be discounted when talking about orks of the 42nd millenium as a whole.

**Andykp**

gnome_idea_what wrote:
The Beast series is far off the bell curve for orks in many ways, from sophistication to technological achievement to physical traits in the case of the Beast himself and his warbosses. Much of it can be discounted when talking about orks of the 42nd millenium as a whole.

Thankfully. BL have always bloated things in the books but that was too much. I blame marvel.

**locarno24**

BrianDavion wrote:
Bobthehero wrote:
Not the same War for Armageddon

ahh my bad, so many bloody wars for that world

Read the titan novel Imperator. There's a great line in there where an Inquisitor is talking to some titan crew.

"Who's Mannheim?"

"A hero of the legion; the princeps of Steel Hammer."

"Oh, I remember. During the second war for Armageddon?"

"No, the first war."

"....Oh, yes. Of course. There have only been two wars for Armageddon, obviously."