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 jhe90 wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Considering that just shooting people seems to be working out better for law enforcement than sitting back and arresting people later, I wouldn’t be surprised if we return to the days of Waco.

One of the Obama administrations biggest mistakes, in my opinion, was backing down in this standoff. You don't pull out law enforcement officers from enforcing a lawful, just, and fair court order because they are in fear of their life. The appropriate thing to have done would have been to send in the National Guard.

The lack of resolve in this situation will only further embolden the militias. The seeds have been planted for future conflict which will be worse.

However. A alternate view. The momment the line a group of ApC, tanks and soldiers to deal with it. They just admitted the police cannot handle a bunch of men with guns and you need the army to enforce the laws there meant to do.

Much as a legal order. A smouldering ruin and video of military firing on people with heavy armour looks rather bad on TV.

No one died when they did it the way they did, blood spilled could have enraged the militias allies and help feed there naritive of the evil state, soldiers oppressing citizens. Evil government etc.

Anyway. Location was remote. No real homes or such near the land.

Isolations and seige working towards surrender beats a assault when not needed. Unless lives at risk or a danger to those nearby.

Well. Seige and negotiation best idea.

Minor mistake there. Someone did die during that whole debacle. The police literally executed a man on the road during a traffic stop.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/01/28/fbi-releases-video-shooting-death-oregon-protester/79490322/

 Ouze wrote:
One of the Obama administrations biggest mistakes, in my opinion, was backing down in this standoff. You don't pull out law enforcement officers from enforcing a lawful, just, and fair court order because they are in fear of their life. The appropriate thing to have done would have been to send in the National Guard.

But the protesters didn't gain anything on any of their complaints, there was on casualty and that's far from ideal but far from worst case scenario, and arrests were made. That part of the operation was a success.

It's the subsequent prosecution that's been a clusterfeth. And as disappointing as its been to see people get away with taking federal facilities by force, its still miles better than the possibility of another Waco, which may have come if federal authorities had been more militant.

oldravenman3025 wrote:The ones that go full tard and challenge the Feds directly? Not so much.

My son has Mosaic Down Syndrome. I know I'm not the only person raising a special needs child on this board. Please make an effort to find a word OTHER than a derogatory reference to my child's disability for the benchmark for the lowest point of human intelligence or sanity.











Now that THAT is over with...




I'm at a loss as to how a lawyer could screw this up. This is baffling to the Nth degree.

 redleger wrote:
Minor mistake there. Someone did die during that whole debacle. The police literally executed a man on the road during a traffic stop.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/01/28/fbi-releases-video-shooting-death-oregon-protester/79490322/

That's the guy who had written fan fiction about murdering police officers, had said repeatedly on video they'd never take him alive, tried to run a cop over with his truck, and finally got shot after being screamed at to put his hands up over and over again while reaching for a gun (which you can clear see on video), right?

I remember that video and coupled with his previous statements I would say his actions were very nearly suicide by cop.

I am flabbergasted. I feel like this is lose your job level of failure.

 redleger wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Considering that just shooting people seems to be working out better for law enforcement than sitting back and arresting people later, I wouldn’t be surprised if we return to the days of Waco.

One of the Obama administrations biggest mistakes, in my opinion, was backing down in this standoff. You don't pull out law enforcement officers from enforcing a lawful, just, and fair court order because they are in fear of their life. The appropriate thing to have done would have been to send in the National Guard.

The lack of resolve in this situation will only further embolden the militias. The seeds have been planted for future conflict which will be worse.

However. A alternate view. The momment the line a group of ApC, tanks and soldiers to deal with it. They just admitted the police cannot handle a bunch of men with guns and you need the army to enforce the laws there meant to do.

Much as a legal order. A smouldering ruin and video of military firing on people with heavy armour looks rather bad on TV.

No one died when they did it the way they did, blood spilled could have enraged the militias allies and help feed there naritive of the evil state, soldiers oppressing citizens. Evil government etc.

Anyway. Location was remote. No real homes or such near the land.

Isolations and seige working towards surrender beats a assault when not needed. Unless lives at risk or a danger to those nearby.

Well. Seige and negotiation best idea.

Minor mistake there. Someone did die during that whole debacle. The police literally executed a man on the road during a traffic stop.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/01/28/fbi-releases-video-shooting-death-oregon-protester/79490322/

So Philando Castille had it coming because his car smelled of weed but a guy who tries driving over an officer and continuing to reach for his gun (which was actually where he was reaching towards, unlike Castille), being on record as saying that they'd never take him alive, is an "execution"?

I think we have a strong runner for "most blatantly BS partisan post" of 2018, and it's not two weeks old yet.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 redleger wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Considering that just shooting people seems to be working out better for law enforcement than sitting back and arresting people later, I wouldn’t be surprised if we return to the days of Waco.

One of the Obama administrations biggest mistakes, in my opinion, was backing down in this standoff. You don't pull out law enforcement officers from enforcing a lawful, just, and fair court order because they are in fear of their life. The appropriate thing to have done would have been to send in the National Guard.

The lack of resolve in this situation will only further embolden the militias. The seeds have been planted for future conflict which will be worse.

However. A alternate view. The momment the line a group of ApC, tanks and soldiers to deal with it. They just admitted the police cannot handle a bunch of men with guns and you need the army to enforce the laws there meant to do.

Much as a legal order. A smouldering ruin and video of military firing on people with heavy armour looks rather bad on TV.

No one died when they did it the way they did, blood spilled could have enraged the militias allies and help feed there naritive of the evil state, soldiers oppressing citizens. Evil government etc.

Anyway. Location was remote. No real homes or such near the land.

Isolations and seige working towards surrender beats a assault when not needed. Unless lives at risk or a danger to those nearby.

Well. Seige and negotiation best idea.

Minor mistake there. Someone did die during that whole debacle. The police literally executed a man on the road during a traffic stop.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/01/28/fbi-releases-video-shooting-death-oregon-protester/79490322/

So Philando Castille had it coming because his car smelled of weed but a guy who tries driving over an officer and continuing to reach for his gun (which was actually where he was reaching towards, unlike Castille), being on record as saying that they'd never take him alive, is an "execution"?

I think we have a strong runner for "most blatantly BS partisan post" of 2018, and it's not two weeks old yet.

I have not, and I am not sure anyone here has ever said Castille had it coming. His situation was definitely not that of someone who had it coming but of someone who made a mistake in not following directions. My post was simply pointing out an error where the quoted post said there were no casualties which was factually incorrect. Was not meant as a way to make anyone think Castille had it coming, since he was not mentioned in the post.

 redleger wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 redleger wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Considering that just shooting people seems to be working out better for law enforcement than sitting back and arresting people later, I wouldn’t be surprised if we return to the days of Waco.

One of the Obama administrations biggest mistakes, in my opinion, was backing down in this standoff. You don't pull out law enforcement officers from enforcing a lawful, just, and fair court order because they are in fear of their life. The appropriate thing to have done would have been to send in the National Guard.

The lack of resolve in this situation will only further embolden the militias. The seeds have been planted for future conflict which will be worse.

However. A alternate view. The momment the line a group of ApC, tanks and soldiers to deal with it. They just admitted the police cannot handle a bunch of men with guns and you need the army to enforce the laws there meant to do.

Much as a legal order. A smouldering ruin and video of military firing on people with heavy armour looks rather bad on TV.

No one died when they did it the way they did, blood spilled could have enraged the militias allies and help feed there naritive of the evil state, soldiers oppressing citizens. Evil government etc.

Anyway. Location was remote. No real homes or such near the land.

Isolations and seige working towards surrender beats a assault when not needed. Unless lives at risk or a danger to those nearby.

Well. Seige and negotiation best idea.

Minor mistake there. Someone did die during that whole debacle. The police literally executed a man on the road during a traffic stop.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/01/28/fbi-releases-video-shooting-death-oregon-protester/79490322/

So Philando Castille had it coming because his car smelled of weed but a guy who tries driving over an officer and continuing to reach for his gun (which was actually where he was reaching towards, unlike Castille), being on record as saying that they'd never take him alive, is an "execution"?

I think we have a strong runner for "most blatantly BS partisan post" of 2018, and it's not two weeks old yet.

I have not, and I am not sure anyone here has ever said Castille had it coming. His situation was definitely not that of someone who had it coming but of someone who made a mistake in not following directions. My post was simply pointing out an error where the quoted post said there were no casualties which was factually incorrect. Was not meant as a way to make anyone think Castille had it coming, since he was not mentioned in the post.

You called it an "execution", while defending the police in the Castille thread. The Bundy case is blatantly one of self-defense and someone actually not following directions, and yet you're calling it an execution. Hence my assertion that you're arguing along partisan lines rather than in good faith.

 redleger wrote:

Minor mistake there. Someone did die during that whole debacle. The police literally executed a man on the road during a traffic stop.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/01/28/fbi-releases-video-shooting-death-oregon-protester/79490322/

This is the only "factually incorrect" post that I've seen in this thread so far.

You've claimed that "the police literally executed a man on the road during a traffic stop" while ignoring that:
A) The man who was "executed" was actually fleeing the scene.
B) The man who was "executed" pulled a weapon on officers at the scene.
C) The man who was "executed" tried to run over officers at the scene.

The only people who claimed that he was "executed" were a Nevada Assemblywoman(Michele Fiore) who wasn't even present at the Oregon standoff and the 18 year old female passenger from LaVoy Finicum's vehicle.

It's also worth mentioning that Finicum's family kept up a spiel about him having been "shot in the back" by the FBI agents on the scene. The autopsy results were held back from the public for a month or so, and then Finicum's family commissioned a private autopsy but most tellingly...never actually released the results of the autopsy.

With all that said, there was an investigation into an FBI agent for (allegedly) firing two shots at Finicum's pickup truck. Last information I can find about that is because there were bullet holes that were unaccounted for(entering through the roof and exiting through a window) at the initial scene. The agent plead not guilty to a set of charges regarding lying about that.

I agree with Sebs. The cops did everything right in the "stand-off". It was the trial phase that was all fethed up.

Part of me wanted them to stomp those successionists scum flat with pure brute force. However, that is the ugly part of me. The rational part of me thinks they did a good job de-escalating, rounding up later, and then putting them on trial.

Too bad the trial was such a spectacular failure. Between this and the Castile style verdicts, I can see why a person could be a bit disallusioned with our system at the moment.

 Easy E wrote:
I agree with Sebs. The cops did everything right in the "stand-off". It was the trial phase that was all fethed up.

Part of me wanted them to stomp those successionists scum flat with pure brute force. However, that is the ugly part of me. The rational part of me thinks they did a good job de-escalating, rounding up later, and then putting them on trial.

Too bad the trial was such a spectacular failure. Between this and the Castile style verdicts, I can see why a person could be a bit disallusioned with our system at the moment.

It's a good rule of thumb not to give your enemies what they want. If they want to be martyrs for the cause it's better to de-escalate and put them on trial rather than roll in with massive force and attack them. While it's a shame that this ended in a mistrial I am glad that the judge came down on the prosecution as strongly as she did. The government already has massive advantages over citizens in court when they play by all the rules, there's no reason for the state to resort to cheating the law to stack the deck in court even more and whenever they are caught doing so it needs to be met with the strictest sanctions possible.

 redleger wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Considering that just shooting people seems to be working out better for law enforcement than sitting back and arresting people later, I wouldn’t be surprised if we return to the days of Waco.

One of the Obama administrations biggest mistakes, in my opinion, was backing down in this standoff. You don't pull out law enforcement officers from enforcing a lawful, just, and fair court order because they are in fear of their life. The appropriate thing to have done would have been to send in the National Guard.

The lack of resolve in this situation will only further embolden the militias. The seeds have been planted for future conflict which will be worse.

However. A alternate view. The momment the line a group of ApC, tanks and soldiers to deal with it. They just admitted the police cannot handle a bunch of men with guns and you need the army to enforce the laws there meant to do.

Much as a legal order. A smouldering ruin and video of military firing on people with heavy armour looks rather bad on TV.

No one died when they did it the way they did, blood spilled could have enraged the militias allies and help feed there naritive of the evil state, soldiers oppressing citizens. Evil government etc.

Anyway. Location was remote. No real homes or such near the land.

Isolations and seige working towards surrender beats a assault when not needed. Unless lives at risk or a danger to those nearby.

Well. Seige and negotiation best idea.

Minor mistake there. Someone did die during that whole debacle. The police literally executed a man on the road during a traffic stop.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/01/28/fbi-releases-video-shooting-death-oregon-protester/79490322/

As others noted...that was no traffic stop execution.

That was a dude who literally published novels about rural cowboys rising up and shooting cops and lynching local officials and federal agents, made numerous public statements within the preceding days about never being taken alive and never going to prison while engaged in an armed occupation of a federal facility, who was engaged in a *chase* involving state police and federal agents when he died.

He fled after being stopped on the highway initially and told police

"You back down or you kill me now. Go ahead. Put the bullet through me. I don't care. I'm going to go meet the sheriff (Palmer). You do as you damned well please."

^thats on video recorded by cellphone from inside the car before he took off down the road. According to the guys who actually shot him he yelled "you're gonna have to shoot me" before...they did.

That was no traffic stop execution. Finicum got exactly what he was looking for. Yes, someone did die, but they went out of their way to make that happen.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 redleger wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Considering that just shooting people seems to be working out better for law enforcement than sitting back and arresting people later, I wouldn’t be surprised if we return to the days of Waco.

One of the Obama administrations biggest mistakes, in my opinion, was backing down in this standoff. You don't pull out law enforcement officers from enforcing a lawful, just, and fair court order because they are in fear of their life. The appropriate thing to have done would have been to send in the National Guard.

The lack of resolve in this situation will only further embolden the militias. The seeds have been planted for future conflict which will be worse.

However. A alternate view. The momment the line a group of ApC, tanks and soldiers to deal with it. They just admitted the police cannot handle a bunch of men with guns and you need the army to enforce the laws there meant to do.

Much as a legal order. A smouldering ruin and video of military firing on people with heavy armour looks rather bad on TV.

No one died when they did it the way they did, blood spilled could have enraged the militias allies and help feed there naritive of the evil state, soldiers oppressing citizens. Evil government etc.

Anyway. Location was remote. No real homes or such near the land.

Isolations and seige working towards surrender beats a assault when not needed. Unless lives at risk or a danger to those nearby.

Well. Seige and negotiation best idea.

Minor mistake there. Someone did die during that whole debacle. The police literally executed a man on the road during a traffic stop.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/01/28/fbi-releases-video-shooting-death-oregon-protester/79490322/

As others noted...that was no traffic stop execution.

That was a dude who literally published novels about rural cowboys rising up and shooting cops and lynching local officials and federal agents, made numerous public statements within the preceding days about never being taken alive and never going to prison while engaged in an armed occupation of a federal facility, who was engaged in a *chase* involving state police and federal agents when he died.

He fled after being stopped on the highway initially and told police

"You back down or you kill me now. Go ahead. Put the bullet through me. I don't care. I'm going to go meet the sheriff (Palmer). You do as you damned well please."

^thats on video recorded by cellphone from inside the car before he took off down the road. According to the guys who actually shot him he yelled "you're gonna have to shoot me" before...they did.

That was no traffic stop execution. Finicum got exactly what he was looking for. Yes, someone did die, but they went out of their way to make that happen.

Lavoy's actions during the initial stop and at the roadblock are sufficient evidence to justify the shooting. His writings are irrelevant to me. Citizens fighting with police has occurred numerous times in US history. Most notably was the Battle of Athens in 1946 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens_%281946%29 and that's not counting the long history of police being used against striking workers or protestors.

Prestor Jon wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
I agree with Sebs. The cops did everything right in the "stand-off". It was the trial phase that was all fethed up.

Part of me wanted them to stomp those successionists scum flat with pure brute force. However, that is the ugly part of me. The rational part of me thinks they did a good job de-escalating, rounding up later, and then putting them on trial.

Too bad the trial was such a spectacular failure. Between this and the Castile style verdicts, I can see why a person could be a bit disallusioned with our system at the moment.

It's a good rule of thumb not to give your enemies what they want. If they want to be martyrs for the cause it's better to de-escalate and put them on trial rather than roll in with massive force and attack them. While it's a shame that this ended in a mistrial I am glad that the judge came down on the prosecution as strongly as she did. The government already has massive advantages over citizens in court when they play by all the rules, there's no reason for the state to resort to cheating the law to stack the deck in court even more and whenever they are caught doing so it needs to be met with the strictest sanctions possible.

I agree completely.

Liek I said, the ugly part of me wanted force; but thankfully I am not ruled or driven by that part of me.... too much.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 redleger wrote:

Minor mistake there. Someone did die during that whole debacle. The police literally executed a man on the road during a traffic stop.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/01/28/fbi-releases-video-shooting-death-oregon-protester/79490322/

This is the only "factually incorrect" post that I've seen in this thread so far.

You've claimed that "the police literally executed a man on the road during a traffic stop" while ignoring that:
A) The man who was "executed" was actually fleeing the scene.
B) The man who was "executed" pulled a weapon on officers at the scene.
C) The man who was "executed" tried to run over officers at the scene.

The only people who claimed that he was "executed" were a Nevada Assemblywoman(Michele Fiore) who wasn't even present at the Oregon standoff and the 18 year old female passenger from LaVoy Finicum's vehicle.

It's also worth mentioning that Finicum's family kept up a spiel about him having been "shot in the back" by the FBI agents on the scene. The autopsy results were held back from the public for a month or so, and then Finicum's family commissioned a private autopsy but most tellingly...never actually released the results of the autopsy.

With all that said, there was an investigation into an FBI agent for (allegedly) firing two shots at Finicum's pickup truck. Last information I can find about that is because there were bullet holes that were unaccounted for(entering through the roof and exiting through a window) at the initial scene. The agent plead not guilty to a set of charges regarding lying about that.

I will retract the execution statement. I apologize for hurt feelings, etc. One person was shot and killed, end of statement.

Second, I do not actually defend the police in the Castille thread, I say there is no proof to back up the claims many of you are making, and I explain why I am sticking to that.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

jmurph wrote:. I wonder if this will embolden these armed militia groups.

It'll encourage the stupid ones, for sure. The smart ones will realize that this technically wasn't a "win" for them.

Cool. These "militia" guys make the Keystone Kops look like Delta Force. Should be fun to watch fun to interact with them on the other boards. They are the typical racist redneck trash you would think they are and incapable of organizing a truck rally...

Maybe the will occupy an outhouse or something this time.

 redleger wrote:
I will retract the execution statement. I apologize for hurt feelings, etc. One person was shot and killed, end of statement.

No ones feelings were hurt. You were just wrong. It's good of you to concede that.

 Ouze wrote:

 redleger wrote:
I will retract the execution statement. I apologize for hurt feelings, etc. One person was shot and killed, end of statement.

No ones feelings were hurt. You were just wrong. It's good of you to concede that.

Ok, well one killed, i was wrong.

However had the Feds been more Gungho, brought up tanks and acted heavy handed there may have been more dead on both sides when they did try to attack and re take the refuge.

even with armour, gear and all there training, the Federal guys clearing them out would not escape injurues or casulties.

Better off ending the way it did. less people dieing over some remote backwater building that aint woth dieing over

Slate has a good article on how the charges being dismissed was the right call.

Wow Ouze, that is pretty bad.

 Ouze wrote:
Slate has a good article on how the charges being dismissed was the right call.

Ouch.

Still, let's hope other self-styled militiamen learn something from this. If the prosecution had worked properly charges would have stuck and people would be in jail. The only really positive thing with this farce is that the siege was de-escalated instead of becoming another Waco fiasco with dozens of victims for no good reason.

Every Jury so far has found in favor of the militia man in every case where the charges did actually stick.

Angry white guys with guns have no reason to change their tactics, they've worked out great for them so far. Law Enforcement won't use force against them, prosecutors feth up their trials, and if they do manage to make it through a trial the jury finds in their favor.

 Ouze wrote:
Slate has a good article on how the charges being dismissed was the right call.

That's even more egregious than the initial reporting on the dismissal seemed.

 Ouze wrote:
Slate has a good article on how the charges being dismissed was the right call.

Some of what is in there backs up what my family told me was going on there at the time.

Militias are like Black Lives Matter protesters. A number of radical idiots give a bad name to the other 75%. No one ever talks about the militias that kept neighborhoods safe during Hurricane Katrina when the cops were MIA, or the ones helping out after natural disasters.

Don't get me wrong Bundy was a total tool.

 Ouze wrote:
Slate has a good article on how the charges being dismissed was the right call.

After reading that article the bureau officers who boasted about using excessive force should be removed from service, and the prosecutor should be dis-barred.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Slate has a good article on how the charges being dismissed was the right call.

After reading that article the bureau officers who boasted about using excessive force should be removed from service, and the prosecutor should be dis-barred.

None of that will happen.

 Frazzled wrote:
None of that will happen.

That's why I said 'should'. I expect that nothing substantive will come of this.

What a cluster F. Why did they even try to screw over the defense? They had it in the bag and tried to not only get the touchdown, but spike the ball too.