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 Irbis wrote:

Stux wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

What?

May I ask how BA or Raptors ignore Codex? Both are 100% Codex compliant chapters...

I'm not familiar enough with Raptors, but Blood Angels use non-codex units such as Death Company, and certain Dreadnought and Predator patterns.

Admittedly these are much smaller infractions than say the Black Templars or Space Wolves, but they still go against the codex.

The Codex doesn't tell you how to put guns on tank. It would be stupid. See - Land Raider Crusader everyone uses despite it being recent invention, or Stalker/Hunter. It just tells you it's nice to have armoured company for dealing with X, Y, and Z, not what exactly should be in each of these. Compared to these, BA 'infractions' are nothing.

Death Company is admittedly a bigger deal, but it's not a change in Codex organization. It's ad hoc, temporary unit that is usually used once and spent right here and then. If Tyrannic war veterans, similar ad hoc unit (albeit a longer lasting one) was declared Codex compliant after long trial as it was 'just' a handful of First company squads, only optimized to deal with certain enemy, then Death Company is just temporary assault squad, problem solved.

Changing guns is a really big deal in the Imperium. It's basically heresy. Which is dumb, but that's Mars for you.

Death Company and non standard vehicles are a departure from the Codex too though. Death Company in particular is a really big divergence in my opinion.

Tyrannic War Veterans are non codex too. But being the Ultramarines they basically get final say in what counts as allowed, so they slipped them by and no one questioned it.

May I ask how BA or Raptors ignore Codex? Both are 100% Codex compliant chapters...

From the 40kwiki: The Raptors prides themselves on extreme zeal for the Emperor of Mankind, but "their reckless disregard for the Codex Astartes is legendary", according to Captain Ardias of the Ultramarines.

Also:
Like their genetic forebears, the Raptors adhere to the broad organisational patterns and provisions laid down in the Codex Astartes, but as a Chapter, they see the Codex as a highly effective and proven set of strategic and operational guidelines rather than inviolable dogma to be obeyed without question. The Raptors maintain a high degree of flexibility in their deployments and structures, and in battle favour hit-and-run tactics over all else.

And:
As they prepare to engage their opponents, these Space Marines are always careful to identify all of their assets and utilise them to the fullest means possible. These often include assets that are not identified within the constraints of the Codex Astartes.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Raptors

It's not detailed how they ignore the codex, but it seems to be the case that they follow it when it suits them and adapt their forces when it doesn't. If an Ultramarines captain calls your disregard for the codex "legendary", I think it's a strong indicator you're not big on the codex.

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

May I ask how BA or Raptors ignore Codex? Both are 100% Codex compliant chapters...

From the 40kwiki: The Raptors prides themselves on extreme zeal for the Emperor of Mankind, but "their reckless disregard for the Codex Astartes is legendary", according to Captain Ardias of the Ultramarines.

Also:
Like their genetic forebears, the Raptors adhere to the broad organisational patterns and provisions laid down in the Codex Astartes, but as a Chapter, they see the Codex as a highly effective and proven set of strategic and operational guidelines rather than inviolable dogma to be obeyed without question. The Raptors maintain a high degree of flexibility in their deployments and structures, and in battle favour hit-and-run tactics over all else.

And:
As they prepare to engage their opponents, these Space Marines are always careful to identify all of their assets and utilise them to the fullest means possible. These often include assets that are not identified within the constraints of the Codex Astartes.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Raptors

It's not detailed how they ignore the codex, but it seems to be the case that they follow it when it suits them and adapt their forces when it doesn't. If an Ultramarines captain calls your disregard for the codex "legendary", I think it's a strong indicator you're not big on the codex.

If I remember correctly, they also operate a trial-and-error pattern to their doctrine, and incorporate new ideas and methods into their battle strategy when they encounter a need for them, and test them in combat. As such, their methods of war are constantly evolving, which is pretty much the opposite of what the Codex stands for in 40k.

On a side note related to above, the Raptors are a Second Founding Chapter, and as such are actually very famous and well known. So whilst not as big as the First Founding Chapters, they still wield a lot of political clout over Chapters with a lesser pedigee (especially Chapters from the Cursed Founding, who get very little respect).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Stux wrote:
Changing guns is a really big deal in the Imperium. It's basically heresy. Which is dumb, but that's Mars for you.

I find the fluff about this quite interesting. There are two factors to this. First is that the Adeptus Astartes get an extra degree of leniency on experimenting (within certain limits) due to the nature of their role and status. They are expected to be the last resort in solving a military problem, so are granted an unusual amount of license to innovate to solve said problem.

Second, so long as the tech being combined are both from STCs, it is considered much more permissible to swap them. The very nature of the STC system is to be modular, and I think the Mechanicus tolerates swapping weapons attached to hardpoints much more readily than modifying STC tech in non-STC ways. As such, any new Space Marine vehicle created for a specific threat then undergoes a submission to Mars (or is hidden) to be assessed for it's purity, and whether there is any precedence for the change. Generally they are accepted after a mere few centuries once the hardcore conservatives are shut up, because they invariably use modular STC tech. If they are not accepted, they remain a unique vehicle in the armoury of the Chapter in question, and are not sanctioned for mass production. This goes back to the license of Marines to innovate more than is normal.

Death Company and non standard vehicles are a departure from the Codex too though. Death Company in particular is a really big divergence in my opinion.

Tyrannic War Veterans are non codex too. But being the Ultramarines they basically get final say in what counts as allowed, so they slipped them by and no one questioned it.

I think there was a huge amount of debate within the Ultramarines themselves, and it would not have been allowed to stand as a change if the threat posed by the Tyranids was not of the hugely enormous magnitude that it is. The Ultramarines were nearly wiped out by Behemoth, so they have been forced to recognise this threat for what it is.

The Raptors don't ignore the Codex. They just treat it more flexibly, something even certain Ultramarines do (see Captains Titus and Ventris, and in 30k, Thiel was a very unorthodox Ultramarine - he ended up helping Guilliman write the Codex).

Hell, Guilliman realised this when he came out of stasis, and is currently re-writing it.

Again - I think a lot of people, in and out of universe, see the Codex as this sort of "In case of X, do Y" manual. It's not - it mostly serves as organisational doctrine, which most Chapters follow (Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Raptors follow this, but the former two have additional combat formations), a treatise on the introduction and training of Space Marines to prevent corruption (which seems to have worked fair well, considering the Imperium has, since the Heresy, never lost what would be a full Legion in one fell swoop - barring the Abyssal Crusade, which mostly killed everyone involved and corrupted the rest), and some tactical advice and strategy. It's the tactics and strategy that people assume is the entire Codex, and coupled with it's perception of it as an "In case of A -> B" book, it can be misrepresented as a stupid idea.

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:
Technically they are. I'm pretty sure the terran government knows, but the BL are so powerful it'd be a detriment to try and bring them to heel when there isn't even solid ground to do so.

Point being that there was open war waged on the inquisition and they lost. They've got limitations too, it seems.

Oh right, the raven/deathwing.

I don't think the policy has been "slack" per se, it's just that with space marine chapters scattered all about, constant warfare, and how generally massive the imperium of man is, I doubt it's easy to dedicate the resources to reign in and control a bunch of extremely proud, zealous supersoldier who probably don't appreciate having somebody looking over their shoulder.

Guilliman was actually a lot more sensible than his successors- he stated that the codex was of limited usefulness since you can never plan for everything. Which is probably why he let the ravenwing and deathwing be.

It is also worth noting that the greatest weakness (and biggest strength) of the Inquisition is that it is not a single unified organisation, with shared aims. Every Inquisitor is an individual, with their own view on what is the correct path, although they can be broadly grouped. For every Inquisitorial faction that wants to wipe out a Space Marine Chapter, there are others who disagree. Thus it takes a lot of political manoeuvring, or substantial evidence, to get a Chapter to be reviled by enough of the Inquisition for them to be able to do something about it. For a First Founding Chapter with an excellent and loyal combat history like the Space Wolves? Getting such a level of support as is necessary for that would be very difficult. The same is true of Second Founding Chapters to a lesser degree.

Having said this, this does not stop Space Marines from policing themselves, and this is essentially how the Badab War started- an internal Sectoral and Marine civil war that eventually dragged in the Imperium as a whole. So any Chapter can declare another Chapter is a traitor, and attack them, but they may get very little support if everyone else deems them unfounded.

The "independent" Chapters also looks after each others' interests in staying more independent oftentimes, and therefore wield a great deal of political power in that sense. A good example is that all the Unforgiven work together.

Many Chapters also hide their non-compliance with the Codex to avoid there being enough evidence to truly condemn them, Dark Angels and the Unforgiven again being the best example (and Black Templars as mentioned). Dark Angels outwardly look like a compliant Chapter- the Deathwing just looks like a veteran company with unusually good access to Terminator armour (as befits their status as The First), and Tactical companies can choose to deploy on bikes (see White Scars), so the Ravenwing doesn't appear especially unusual either. However, under the surface they have whole layers of extra organisation, unusual mission roles, and a very large number of extra Marines scattered around the Galaxy manning Chapter keeps. This is likely to be as many as an extra thousand Marines, and it is not clear if this is allowed by the Codex- do garrison troops count?* The Imperial Fists and Black Templars also have a large number of Marines manning keeps across the Imperium.

*There are many exceptions to the strict 1000, such as command squads, headquarters staff, fleet personnel, specialists, the Scout company having no limit in size etc. Garrisons may be one of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The Raptors don't ignore the Codex. They just treat it more flexibly, something even certain Ultramarines do (see Captains Titus and Ventris, and in 30k, Thiel was a very unorthodox Ultramarine - he ended up helping Guilliman write the Codex).

Hell, Guilliman realised this when he came out of stasis, and is currently re-writing it.

Again - I think a lot of people, in and out of universe, see the Codex as this sort of "In case of X, do Y" manual. It's not - it mostly serves as organisational doctrine, which most Chapters follow (Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Raptors follow this, but the former two have additional combat formations), a treatise on the introduction and training of Space Marines to prevent corruption (which seems to have worked fair well, considering the Imperium has, since the Heresy, never lost what would be a full Legion in one fell swoop - barring the Abyssal Crusade, which mostly killed everyone involved and corrupted the rest), and some tactical advice and strategy. It's the tactics and strategy that people assume is the entire Codex, and coupled with it's perception of it as an "In case of A -> B" book, it can be misrepresented as a stupid idea.

Ventris was also heavily censured for deviating too far from the Codex in a tactical situation, despite his actions in deviating from the Codex likely saving the planet and winning the war he was involved in. He was sent on a personal crusade with his 2iC into the Eye of Terror for not following the Codex! That seems pretty big to me, and this was not on an organisational issue.

Clearly there is a degree to which tactical flexibility outside of Codex tenets is tolerated in the pre-Guilliman Ultramarines, and the Raptors are beyond this (they are mentioned as being non-Codex compliant).

 Haighus wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The Raptors don't ignore the Codex. They just treat it more flexibly, something even certain Ultramarines do (see Captains Titus and Ventris, and in 30k, Thiel was a very unorthodox Ultramarine - he ended up helping Guilliman write the Codex).

Hell, Guilliman realised this when he came out of stasis, and is currently re-writing it.

Again - I think a lot of people, in and out of universe, see the Codex as this sort of "In case of X, do Y" manual. It's not - it mostly serves as organisational doctrine, which most Chapters follow (Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Raptors follow this, but the former two have additional combat formations), a treatise on the introduction and training of Space Marines to prevent corruption (which seems to have worked fair well, considering the Imperium has, since the Heresy, never lost what would be a full Legion in one fell swoop - barring the Abyssal Crusade, which mostly killed everyone involved and corrupted the rest), and some tactical advice and strategy. It's the tactics and strategy that people assume is the entire Codex, and coupled with it's perception of it as an "In case of A -> B" book, it can be misrepresented as a stupid idea.

Ventris was also heavily censured for deviating too far from the Codex in a tactical situation, despite his actions in deviating from the Codex likely saving the planet and winning the war he was involved in. He was sent on a personal crusade with his 2iC into the Eye of Terror for not following the Codex! That seems pretty big to me, and this was not on an organisational issue.

Exactly - this is the character "flaw" of the Ultramarines in particular. They are very strict over the Codex, barring a few overwhelmingly necessary additions (Tyrannic War Vets), even more so than what Guilliman set it out as.

Ventris was punished for using unorthodox methods, which, if Guilliman had been present, probably would have been waived. Considering that Sicarius (who had a strong influence in the trial) had a vendetta against Ventris, and that he was an Ultramarine, his exile was completely what we'd expect from a Ultramarine, who are known to be very obsessive over the Codex.

Raptors still follow it, but more loosely. They're still classed as Codex Compliant, to my knowledge.

Clearly there is a degree to which tactical flexibility outside of Codex tenets is tolerated in the pre-Guilliman Ultramarines, and the Raptors are beyond this (they are mentioned as being non-Codex compliant).

Where's your source for the latter? I thought they were codex compliant, with minor strategic deviations.

Where's your source for the latter? I thought they were codex compliant, with minor strategic deviations.

I'll just quote myself here:

From the 40kwiki: The Raptors prides themselves on extreme zeal for the Emperor of Mankind, but "their reckless disregard for the Codex Astartes is legendary", according to Captain Ardias of the Ultramarines.

Also:
Like their genetic forebears, the Raptors adhere to the broad organisational patterns and provisions laid down in the Codex Astartes, but as a Chapter, they see the Codex as a highly effective and proven set of strategic and operational guidelines rather than inviolable dogma to be obeyed without question. The Raptors maintain a high degree of flexibility in their deployments and structures, and in battle favour hit-and-run tactics over all else.

And:
As they prepare to engage their opponents, these Space Marines are always careful to identify all of their assets and utilise them to the fullest means possible. These often include assets that are not identified within the constraints of the Codex Astartes.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Raptors

It's not detailed how they ignore the codex, but it seems to be the case that they follow it when it suits them and adapt their forces when it doesn't. If an Ultramarines captain calls your disregard for the codex "legendary", I think it's a strong indicator you're not big on the codex.

Stux wrote:
Death Company and non standard vehicles are a departure from the Codex too though. Death Company in particular is a really big divergence in my opinion.

But death company isn't organizational thing. It's just ad-hoc unit created when bunch of blood angels before battle succumb to it. It's not something BA plan around(being something you cannot predict in advance) nor hope to have around.

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

Where's your source for the latter? I thought they were codex compliant, with minor strategic deviations.

I'll just quote myself here:

From the 40kwiki: The Raptors prides themselves on extreme zeal for the Emperor of Mankind, but "their reckless disregard for the Codex Astartes is legendary", according to Captain Ardias of the Ultramarines.

Also:
Like their genetic forebears, the Raptors adhere to the broad organisational patterns and provisions laid down in the Codex Astartes, but as a Chapter, they see the Codex as a highly effective and proven set of strategic and operational guidelines rather than inviolable dogma to be obeyed without question. The Raptors maintain a high degree of flexibility in their deployments and structures, and in battle favour hit-and-run tactics over all else.

And:
As they prepare to engage their opponents, these Space Marines are always careful to identify all of their assets and utilise them to the fullest means possible. These often include assets that are not identified within the constraints of the Codex Astartes.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Raptors

It's not detailed how they ignore the codex, but it seems to be the case that they follow it when it suits them and adapt their forces when it doesn't. If an Ultramarines captain calls your disregard for the codex "legendary", I think it's a strong indicator you're not big on the codex.

By source, I was more wondering which books it claims that in, given how the wiki can be unreliable.

By source, I was more wondering which books it claims that in, given how the wiki can be unreliable.

The article lists sources. Read it.

tneva82 wrote:

Stux wrote:
Death Company and non standard vehicles are a departure from the Codex too though. Death Company in particular is a really big divergence in my opinion.

But death company isn't organizational thing. It's just ad-hoc unit created when bunch of blood angels before battle succumb to it. It's not something BA plan around(being something you cannot predict in advance) nor hope to have around.

It's a major part of how the chapter operates, regardless of whether they have a choice in the matter due to their unique situation, it definitely goes against the codex.

Stux wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Stux wrote:
Death Company and non standard vehicles are a departure from the Codex too though. Death Company in particular is a really big divergence in my opinion.

But death company isn't organizational thing. It's just ad-hoc unit created when bunch of blood angels before battle succumb to it. It's not something BA plan around(being something you cannot predict in advance) nor hope to have around.

It's a major part of how the chapter operates, regardless of whether they have a choice in the matter due to their unique situation, it definitely goes against the codex.

Plus there are several Blood Angels with the Black Rage who are permanent members of the Chapter- Lemartes and Death company Dreadnoughts- so the formation is essentially a permanent one with a variable unit strength.

tneva82 wrote:

But death company isn't organizational thing. It's just ad-hoc unit created when bunch of blood angels before battle succumb to it. It's not something BA plan around(being something you cannot predict in advance) nor hope to have around.

It can't be that ad hoc if they have time to paint the armours black!