Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I recently read Rynn's world, IE How The Crimson Fists Got Royally Screwed, The Book. I found it a good read, but it made some puzzling statements about the lore that had me raising an eyebrow. I'm no expert, but I feel like I have a decent handle on the lore, and some of the things mentioned felt really unfamiliar. I know a lot of BL authors play fast and loose with the lore (like CS "Multilaser" Goto), and I wondered if these things fell under artistic licence, or if they're backed up by canon.

Off the top of my head:
-The marines having some kind of chip/implant that forces them to obey orders given to them by a superior. This is mentioned multiple times in the book, and an overeager scout is even sentenced to become a servitor for failing to obey.
-An Iron Halo needing to be manually activated, and easily overcharging in the face of great force.
-The fists, "like many other chapters", not viewing emps like a god but rather as a father figure, putting them closer to pre-heresy attitudes than the current crazy theocracy.
-A plasma warhead somehow able to burrow deep underground after misfiring and igniting an entire armoury, is this possible?
-Librarians having the capacity to assume command in the absence of a force commander (there was a dispute after a captain died, between the remaining ranking officer, several of which had appropriate rank- but all claiming to be the ones who should take charge, this is solved by a librarian stepping up. Wouldn't the marines have clearer rank systems?)

And some other stuff I don't recall. I'll freely admit there are a lot of 40k details I don't know, these things just seemed a bit strange to me. Anyone knowledgeable on SM lore who could explain?

I've a couple of answers / counter questions; as someone who's never read (and never will read) a 40k novel. :^)

-The first bit is confusing. If they have a chip which forces them to obey, how could a scout be sentenced for failing to obey?

-Invulnerable saves are often representative of force fields. Similar to void shields they can be oddly specific (won't block projectiles which aren't moving fast enough / large enough ect ) and can, of course, be overloaded by sufficient force.

-This is through the door, and even mentioned in various SM codex'. Most chapters - and marines - view the Emperor as a the greatest human to ever live, but still just a human. This is rooted in his original hatred of religion / strong resistance to being classified as a 'god', and how he was closest to the marines and their legions.

The most noticeable exception would be the Black Templars, who do revere him as a god.

- Not sure about the warhead, but physics such are fucky in 40k.

- To my understanding, Librarians have rank in addition to being classified as librarians. So if the force commander dies, and a few captains are left squabbling, a specific librarian stepping forwards could simply be like another force commander assuming control.

 morganfreeman wrote:
I've a couple of answers / counter questions; as someone who's never read (and never will read) a 40k novel. :^)

-The first bit is confusing. If they have a chip which forces them to obey, how could a scout be sentenced for failing to obey?

-Invulnerable saves are often representative of force fields. Similar to void shields they can be oddly specific (won't block projectiles which aren't moving fast enough / large enough ect ) and can, of course, be overloaded by sufficient force.

-This is through the door, and even mentioned in various SM codex'. Most chapters - and marines - view the Emperor as a the greatest human to ever live, but still just a human. This is rooted in his original hatred of religion / strong resistance to being classified as a 'god', and how he was closest to the marines and their legions.

The most noticeable exception would be the Black Templars, who do revere him as a god.

- Not sure about the warhead, but physics such are fucky in 40k.

- To my understanding, Librarians have rank in addition to being classified as librarians. So if the force commander dies, and a few captains are left squabbling, a specific librarian stepping forwards could simply be like another force commander assuming control.

1: He disobeyed an order. Pedro Kantor, chapter master, decided that this meant his chip/implant/whatever hadn't properly taken effect, and sentenced him.

2: I don't remember exactly, but in the book it felt like he had very little use of it. It's used once, in the final confrontation with the ork warboss, and overloads quickly.

3: OK, that's good to know. I kind of figured the space marines, being all super dedicated religious warrior monks, would be on board with the god-emperor thing.

4: Yeah... understatement of the century, lol.

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

Off the top of my head:
-The marines having some kind of chip/implant that forces them to obey orders given to them by a superior. This is mentioned multiple times in the book, and an overeager scout is even sentenced to become a servitor for failing to obey.

Never heard this in other sources. If that's what happens, it's either specific to Crimson Fists or the author getting carried away.

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

-An Iron Halo needing to be manually activated, and easily overcharging in the face of great force.

The specific physics of tech in 40k is very poorly defined, probably intentionally so they don't get backed in to a corner in the fluff. It's entirely plausible that a strong enough force could knock out a force field. Turning them off and on manually also seems like something that is plausible, and therefore up to author interpretation.

Remember, the rules are an abstraction. So they don't always have to exactly match the way things work in the lore.

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

-The fists, "like many other chapters", not viewing emps like a god but rather as a father figure, putting them closer to pre-heresy attitudes than the current crazy theocracy.

This is pretty common for marines. They're quite separate from the influence of the Imperial Cult for the most part, and have the most autonomy of any Imperial forces to maintain their traditions and beliefs. Likely because of how useful the chapters are to the Imperium, and how much effort it would take to put them down if they were angered. The Imperium is often more pragmatic than they would like you to believe, and so they generally have a live and let live attitude to what Space Marines believe, so long as it's not outright chaotic.

So yes, many chapters maintain some vestige of the pre-heresy view of the Emperor.

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

-A plasma warhead somehow able to burrow deep underground after misfiring and igniting an entire armoury, is this possible?

Sure, why not. See the above answer about tech and authorial license.

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

-Librarians having the capacity to assume command in the absence of a force commander (there was a dispute after a captain died, between the remaining ranking officer, several of which had appropriate rank- but all claiming to be the ones who should take charge, this is solved by a librarian stepping up. Wouldn't the marines have clearer rank systems?)

I don't know too much about the specifics of the incident in question. I would say that yes, as a military organisation they would likely have many contingencies for chain of command when officers are lost. However, the circumstances of the Crimson Fists as I understand it involved losing a massive proportion of their chapter, so perhaps that extended past any contingency that was deemed necessary.

Librarians are senior marines though, so I don't think in itself it's too unusual for one to assume command if other commanders are killed.

Never heard this in other sources. If that's what happens, it's either specific to Crimson Fists or the author getting carried away.

Out of the bunch, this is probably the one that was the weirdest. It's a strange invention to have- robbing a soldier of the ability to act autonomously on the battlefield seems like a serious detriment.

The specific physics of tech in 40k is very poorly defined, probably intentionally so they don't get backed in to a corner in the fluff. It's entirely plausible that a strong enough force could knock out a force field. Turning them off and on manually also seems like something that is plausible, and therefore up to author interpretation.

Remember, the rules are an abstraction. So they don't always have to exactly match the way things work in the lore.

Yeah, I'm not really concerned about rules-to-lore stuff here. I honestly don't know how this tech actually works, so it could be 100% accurate for all I know.

This is pretty common for marines. They're quite separate from the influence of the Imperial Cult for the most part, and have the most autonomy of any Imperial forces to maintain their traditions and beliefs. Likely because of how useful the chapters are to the Imperium, and how much effort it would take to put them down if they were angered. The Imperium is often more pragmatic than they would like you to believe, and so they generally have a live and let live attitude to what Space Marines believe, so long as it's not outright chaotic.

So yes, many chapters maintain some vestige of the pre-heresy view of the Emperor.

This is news to me, but it seems to check out. Just the other day I finished The Emperor's Gift by ADB, wherein a leading Grey Knight scoffs at the notion of worshipping the emperor and dismisses it as propaganda for the delusional masses.
On that note, how strict is enforcement of the Codex Astartes? The ultramarines and many others follow it religiously, but others completely disobey it. It's not so strange that heroic and popular chapters like the BA or SW can get away with it, but then there are lesser chapters like the Raptors who completely disregard it (as a strategy guide, at least) whenever it suits them. Does the inquisition just leave you alone so long as you do not exceed 1000 marines?

Sure, why not. See the above answer about tech and authorial license.

Sounds like insanely bad luck, but I don't have a problem with it as a literary device.

I don't know too much about the specifics of the incident in question. I would say that yes, as a military organisation they would likely have many contingencies for chain of command when officers are lost. However, the circumstances of the Crimson Fists as I understand it involved losing a massive proportion of their chapter, so perhaps that extended past any contingency that was deemed necessary.

Librarians are senior marines though, so I don't think in itself it's too unusual for one to assume command if other commanders are killed.

Basically: the fists were split in two, four companies at this one city, defending against the waagh, and the rest at the fortress-monastery ready for rapid response to wherever the orks would strike. The fortress gets screwed, and that leaves the four companies at the city as the largest fighting force. Their commander, a captain, is killed by orks, and from then on his most immediate successor seeks command, while another demands that it's his company at the forefront, so he should get command etc. So right in the middle of a waagh, we have a squabble over leadership until the librarian steps in. He cites official protocols as the reason for this, and they agree.

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

This is pretty common for marines. They're quite separate from the influence of the Imperial Cult for the most part, and have the most autonomy of any Imperial forces to maintain their traditions and beliefs. Likely because of how useful the chapters are to the Imperium, and how much effort it would take to put them down if they were angered. The Imperium is often more pragmatic than they would like you to believe, and so they generally have a live and let live attitude to what Space Marines believe, so long as it's not outright chaotic.

So yes, many chapters maintain some vestige of the pre-heresy view of the Emperor.

This is news to me, but it seems to check out. Just the other day I finished The Emperor's Gift by ADB, wherein a leading Grey Knight scoffs at the notion of worshipping the emperor and dismisses it as propaganda for the delusional masses.
On that note, how strict is enforcement of the Codex Astartes? The ultramarines and many others follow it religiously, but others completely disobey it. It's not so strange that heroic and popular chapters like the BA or SW can get away with it, but then there are lesser chapters like the Raptors who completely disregard it (as a strategy guide, at least) whenever it suits them. Does the inquisition just leave you alone so long as you do not exceed 1000 marines?

As I said, the Imperium is in practice much more pragmatic than most people think. The cult is real for sure, and people are fanatical to the point of genocide. But many of the people really in power don't fully buy in to that. It's a front to control the people.

The Codex Astartes is q great example of this. How strict it is varies massively from chapter to chapter. One part of the codex is that the Legions had to break up in to chapters, with each chapter a maximum of 1000 marines. This was to decentralise their power basically, to hinder a future Horus. Rogal Dorn of the Imperial Fists was still around at the time, and was strongly against it. He believed the Imperial Fists needed to be at Legion strength to protect Terra. Yet he was eventually defeated politically and forced to break his chapter (check out the Last Wall Protocol for his secret plan though!).

Funnily enough though, this strict cap on Chapter size is not applied these days to the Black Templars. Their size is unknown, but suspected to be several thousand. Partly that's just due to their perpetual crusading which makes it difficult to keep track of, but it's also because they are useful and so the Imperium turns a blind eye.

Same goes for the other chapters that are non compliant really. The Space Wolves and Blood Angels with their quite extreme gene mutations and the Dark Angels with their specialised wings. These chapters are politically in very strong positions, and consistently prove to be assets to the Imperium. Even when the Dark Angels disappear the odd Inquisitor who gets too close to their secrets, which Guilliman at least blatantly must be aware of, they are allowed to carry on because they're that damn good at their job!

Chapters in a weaker position conversely are forced to strictly follow the Codex to the letter.

EDIT: it should be noted that there is a fair bit of personal interpretation in the above. It's the nature of 40k lore that not that much is known for absolute certain. A lot of what is presented is basically unreliable narrator, every codex makes its army the protagonist, projecting their viewpoint on to events.

In some of the older fluff, it was hinted that as Assassin had a hand in the destruction of the Fortress Monastary (perhaps a Vanus as they specialise in disruption). It was never stated why this happened. Maybe the fists had done something to annoy a passing Inquisitor.

I've never heard of control chips in Marines. The closest thing I know of is Interrogator Chaplains are taught commands that basically put any rebellious Dark Angel into a temporary coma so they can't do anything bad and get their memory rewritten.

As I said, the Imperium is in practice much more pragmatic than most people think. The cult is real for sure, and people are fanatical to the point of genocide. But many of the people really in power don't fully buy in to that. It's a front to control the people.

So... is the ecclesiarchy fake? Is its leadership aware?

The Codex Astartes is q great example of this. How strict it is varies massively from chapter to chapter. One part of the codex is that the Legions had to break up in to chapters, with each chapter a maximum of 1000 marines. This was to decentralise their power basically, to hinder a future Horus. Rogal Dorn of the Imperial Fists was still around at the time, and was strongly against it. He believed the Imperial Fists needed to be at Legion strength to protect Terra. Yet he was eventually defeated politically and forced to break his chapter (check out the Last Wall Protocol for his secret plan though!).

The downside being that autonomous space marine forces left to their own devices with little to no oversight can really easily turn renegade/fall to chaos (see Badab). The codex astartes isn't really that much better a solution. I'm familiar with the lore well enough though- Dorn and the Blood Angels both opposed it, until Guilliman opened fire on Dorn's flagship.

Funnily enough though, this strict cap on Chapter size is not applied these days to the Black Templars. Their size is unknown, but suspected to be several thousand. Partly that's just due to their perpetual crusading which makes it difficult to keep track of, but it's also because they are useful and so the Imperium turns a blind eye.

Isn't it the case that the templars are abusing a loophole? Sigismund saw that "a crusading chapter may exceed 1000 marines" and basically went "cool, all I have to do is constantly crusade and I can have all the marines I want", right? The black templar are like... I've heard the figure six thousand, which would make them the mighties space marine chapter in the galaxy.

Same goes for the other chapters that are non compliant really. The Space Wolves and Blood Angels with their quite extreme gene mutations and the Dark Angels with their specialised wings. These chapters are politically in very strong positions, and consistently prove to be assets to the Imperium. Even when the Dark Angels disappear the odd Inquisitor who gets too close to their secrets, which Guilliman at least blatantly must be aware of, they are allowed to carry on because they're that damn good at their job!

The wolves have gone as far as waging open war on the inquisition, butchering a lord inquisitor (who deserved it), and refusing to take penance for it. The inquisition's power seems to have its limits.
Wait, dark angels have wings? Since when?

Chapters in a weaker position conversely are forced to strictly follow the Codex to the letter.

EDIT: it should be noted that there is a fair bit of personal interpretation in the above. It's the nature of 40k lore that not that much is known for absolute certain. A lot of what is presented is basically unreliable narrator, every codex makes its army the protagonist, projecting their viewpoint on to events.

Forced, by who? Isn't space marine autonomy plus the considerable power they wield equivalent to making policing really, really hard? Even in the badab war, the Astral Claws weren't declared Excomunnicate Traitoris until there was evidence of Huron tampering with gene-seed and exceeding his 1000 mark.
As I mentioned elsewhere, chapters like the Raptors- which aren't nearly as famous or powerful- couldn't give less of a feth about codex adherence, and they prevail, which suggests the inquisition is either very hands-off when it comes to marines, or are outright unable to police chapters directly, at least all of them.

I don't recall any chip in the novel. Could it be that his mental conditioning failed; i.e. his brainwashing wasn't good enough.

It's not that the ecclesiarchy is fake so much as different powerful individuals buy in to it more or less. Take Guilliman, the current Lord Commander. He knew his father, knew what he was and what he stood for. He knows the Imperial Cult is not what the Emperor wanted, and yet it continues. Presumably because to him, at least for now, the effort to dismantle it is not worth it and it does much to hold the Imperium together behind an ideal. I'll bet Guilliman has designs to tear it apart eventually though, he's just a long term thinker.

I agree the Codex is really not that great a solution, and is in my opinion as much an attempt for Guilliman to assert himself as anything.

Fair enough on Black Templars. To me, exploiting a loophole is not following the Codex though.

Well, in story terms an Inquisitor has as much power as the story requires them to at a given time. They can be incredibly powerful, ordering Exterminatus on world's and such. Space Marines probably respect them the least though, because I suppose they know Terra really doesn't want to fight a Space Marine chapter. So when Astartes and the Inquisition come in to conflict, Terra generally just let it work itself out and side with the victor.

For Dark Angels I mean their unusual organisation, the Deathwing and Ravening, not physical wings. In the latest DA codex, Guilliman specifically mentions letting them keep them due to their effectiveness. The implication being that Guilliman has the authority to prohibit it if necessary (whether that might cause a war is another matter!).

Admittedly the policing has been slack for several thousand years, but Guilliman is flexing his muscles on this a bit now.

There was no chip. what was concluded in the case of the scout was, when he disobeyed a direct order choosing to chase his own glory instead, that the Physco-conditioning that all marines undergo (basicly a combo brain washing/jamming tons of information into their heads) didn't take suffianctly

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

Forced, by who? Isn't space marine autonomy plus the considerable power they wield equivalent to making policing really, really hard? Even in the badab war, the Astral Claws weren't declared Excomunnicate Traitoris until there was evidence of Huron tampering with gene-seed and exceeding his 1000 mark.
As I mentioned elsewhere, chapters like the Raptors- which aren't nearly as famous or powerful- couldn't give less of a feth about codex adherence, and they prevail, which suggests the inquisition is either very hands-off when it comes to marines, or are outright unable to police chapters directly, at least all of them.

Well, Space Marines still need AD Mech to supply them with gear, Astropaths to send messageds to them and cooperation of other imperial agencies is pretty helpful to them too. I'm sure if the High Lords want to make life difficult to some uncooperative chapter they've got plenty of tools before Excommunicate Traitoris. That being said, I'm pretty sure the High Lords nor the Inquisition are super interested whether the marines follow the finer points of the Codex, as long as there is no legion building or some other super weird stuff going on. It is mostly the Ultras and their successors who are really concerned with the Codex.

And about that Librarian thing, it is perry unclear how the various specialist fit in the chain of command. I'm sure practices in different chapters would differ, though to me it seems weird that the Librarian could assume command if there were actual line officers present. In any case, in any military organisation there would be pretty clear rules for how the chain of command works, and there really should be no confusion about it.

And as for novels in general, they often have some weird or contradictory stuff as different authors have different interpretations of things. It is pretty understandable, as in a novel you often have to describe many things in much greater detail than in a codeces, and as many details are just not known, the authors have to make stuff up and they can easily contradict each other or just otherwise come up with a bizarre extrapolation.

-A plasma warhead somehow able to burrow deep underground after misfiring and igniting an entire armoury, is this possible?


From 1d4 chan (so I don't know how reliable this is)

This was fixed by Steve Parker; the missile was actually fired from one of the fortress's anti-ship weapons bastions, and the void shields had to be dropped to fire them. It was also the type of anti ship missile that formed a melta field over the warhead to bore through ship armor before detonation, to make "tunneled through two hundred meters of solid rock" less stupid. Which is why silos like that should be kept separate from the fortress, so you don't have to drop your shields to fire. While this would expose the silos, you can have one missile each and hide dozens of them far away from one another.

in short it was retconed.

BrianDavion wrote:
There was no chip. what was concluded in the case of the scout was, when he disobeyed a direct order choosing to chase his own glory instead, that the Physco-conditioning that all marines undergo (basicly a combo brain washing/jamming tons of information into their heads) didn't take suffianctly

It wasn't just the scout. It's directly mentioned in the case of Alessio Cortez, when he's wounded after having killed an ork warboss- Pedro orders him to seek medical aid, Pedro doesn't want to, but then the narration states that the chip/implants/whatever kick in and forces him to obey. If it had just said "psycho-conidtioning/indoctrination" I wouldn't have raised an eyebrow. It was definitely more than that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
There was no chip. what was concluded in the case of the scout was, when he disobeyed a direct order choosing to chase his own glory instead, that the Physco-conditioning that all marines undergo (basicly a combo brain washing/jamming tons of information into their heads) didn't take suffianctly

Not a chip, but it was definitely more than just conditioning/indoctrination; if it had said that then I wouldn't have raised an eyebrow at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

It's not that the ecclesiarchy is fake so much as different powerful individuals buy in to it more or less. Take Guilliman, the current Lord Commander. He knew his father, knew what he was and what he stood for. He knows the Imperial Cult is not what the Emperor wanted, and yet it continues. Presumably because to him, at least for now, the effort to dismantle it is not worth it and it does much to hold the Imperium together behind an ideal. I'll bet Guilliman has designs to tear it apart eventually though, he's just a long term thinker.

I agree the Codex is really not that great a solution, and is in my opinion as much an attempt for Guilliman to assert himself as anything.

Fair enough on Black Templars. To me, exploiting a loophole is not following the Codex though.

Well, in story terms an Inquisitor has as much power as the story requires them to at a given time. They can be incredibly powerful, ordering Exterminatus on world's and such. Space Marines probably respect them the least though, because I suppose they know Terra really doesn't want to fight a Space Marine chapter. So when Astartes and the Inquisition come in to conflict, Terra generally just let it work itself out and side with the victor.

For Dark Angels I mean their unusual organisation, the Deathwing and Ravening, not physical wings. In the latest DA codex, Guilliman specifically mentions letting them keep them due to their effectiveness. The implication being that Guilliman has the authority to prohibit it if necessary (whether that might cause a war is another matter!).

Admittedly the policing has been slack for several thousand years, but Guilliman is flexing his muscles on this a bit now.

Makes sense, sure.

I can see where Guilliman was coming from, having just lived through the heresy and seeing firsthand what unchecked power can do, and in a sense the codex astartes does accomplish what he wanted- a single chapter going rogue is a lot less concerning than a legion going rogue. That said, a bunch of marines operating without oversight, as is often the case, just invites a whole new host of troubles.

Technically they are. I'm pretty sure the terran government knows, but the BL are so powerful it'd be a detriment to try and bring them to heel when there isn't even solid ground to do so.

Point being that there was open war waged on the inquisition and they lost. They've got limitations too, it seems.

Oh right, the raven/deathwing.

I don't think the policy has been "slack" per se, it's just that with space marine chapters scattered all about, constant warfare, and how generally massive the imperium of man is, I doubt it's easy to dedicate the resources to reign in and control a bunch of extremely proud, zealous supersoldier who probably don't appreciate having somebody looking over their shoulder.

Guilliman was actually a lot more sensible than his successors- he stated that the codex was of limited usefulness since you can never plan for everything. Which is probably why he let the ravenwing and deathwing be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Well, Space Marines still need AD Mech to supply them with gear, Astropaths to send messageds to them and cooperation of other imperial agencies is pretty helpful to them too. I'm sure if the High Lords want to make life difficult to some uncooperative chapter they've got plenty of tools before Excommunicate Traitoris. That being said, I'm pretty sure the High Lords nor the Inquisition are super interested whether the marines follow the finer points of the Codex, as long as there is no legion building or some other super weird stuff going on. It is mostly the Ultras and their successors who are really concerned with the Codex.

And about that Librarian thing, it is perry unclear how the various specialist fit in the chain of command. I'm sure practices in different chapters would differ, though to me it seems weird that the Librarian could assume command if there were actual line officers present. In any case, in any military organisation there would be pretty clear rules for how the chain of command works, and there really should be no confusion about it.

And as for novels in general, they often have some weird or contradictory stuff as different authors have different interpretations of things. It is pretty understandable, as in a novel you often have to describe many things in much greater detail than in a codeces, and as many details are just not known, the authors have to make stuff up and they can easily contradict each other or just otherwise come up with a bizarre extrapolation.

Indirect pressure works well too, sure. So basically, as I thought, the codex is more like a guideline and chapters don't really get into trouble over it unless they start exceeding the 1k limit (and even then there's wiggle room).

It could be a Fists thing, sure. It just struck me as odd that super soldiers would squabble over leadership during a catastrophic war, that the chain of command wasn't clearer.

I've noticed. There's a pretty drastic difference between reading, say, the Cain books or reading your regular space marine novel. Authors have different spins and the inconsistencies range from noticeable to glaring.

The codex was also IMHO largely political. it's main goal was not detailing tactics etc, but orginization. The seige of terra showed the high lords and other luminaries on Terra just how terrifying the legions could be unrestrained I suspect strongly the codex was a comprimise solution, as I bet there where a number of voices calling for them to be disbanded

BrianDavion wrote:
The codex was also IMHO largely political. it's main goal was not detailing tactics etc, but orginization. The seige of terra showed the high lords and other luminaries on Terra just how terrifying the legions could be unrestrained I suspect strongly the codex was a comprimise solution, as I bet there where a number of voices calling for them to be disbanded

The purpose of the Codex Astartes was to make sure that no single person had the power to command the might of a full Space Marine legion... except if that person was Roboute Guilliman, then it was totally fine for them to have the supreme command of all the Imperium's armies combined.

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
The codex was also IMHO largely political. it's main goal was not detailing tactics etc, but orginization. The seige of terra showed the high lords and other luminaries on Terra just how terrifying the legions could be unrestrained I suspect strongly the codex was a comprimise solution, as I bet there where a number of voices calling for them to be disbanded

The purpose of the Codex Astartes was to make sure that no single person had the power to command the might of a full Space Marine legion... except if that person was Roboute Guilliman, then it was totally fine for them to have the supreme command of all the Imperium's armies combined.

except that the chapters didn't report to Gulliman, each was (on paper) independant. of course pratically speaking the codex only worked if the primarchs who where unifying figures dissappered.

BrianDavion wrote:
except that the chapters didn't report to Gulliman, each was (on paper) independant .

On paper. He was/is the Lord Commander.

of course pratically speaking the codex only worked if the primarchs who where unifying figures dissappered.

So you're saying that what we've been told about demise/disappearance of the Primarchs is lies, and actually Guilliman had them assassinated to consolidate his power? Sounds believable.

Fantasy Flight Games made a Warhammer 40k Pen and Paper RPG in which they explained Iron Halos quite well.

Its just a device that projects an energy field of a certain strength. It requires energy to run (and so can burn itself out if left on too long) and can only stop attacks of a certain strength.

If something stronger than the field hits it, it overheats the device and shuts it off.

This was represented by making each device have a percent chance of stopping an attack, and if the attack beat the percent the device fried.

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
except that the chapters didn't report to Gulliman, each was (on paper) independant .

On paper. He was/is the Lord Commander.

of course pratically speaking the codex only worked if the primarchs who where unifying figures dissappered.

So you're saying that what we've been told about demise/disappearance of the Primarchs is lies, and actually Guilliman had them assassinated to consolidate his power? Sounds believable.

the lord commander over saw the Imperial military, but the space marine chapters where independant. And I doubt he had them assasinated (especially as a number where left after Gulliman "died') although it does raise up an intreasting question. Did the Primarchs quietly agree to dissapper once they felt their affairs where wrapped up?

the lord commander over saw the Imperial military, but the space marine chapters where independant. And I doubt he had them assasinated (especially as a number where left after Gulliman "died') although it does raise up an intreasting question. Did the Primarchs quietly agree to dissapper once they felt their affairs where wrapped up?

Highly doubtful of that. They were needed and they knew it.

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

I don't think the policy has been "slack" per se, it's just that with space marine chapters scattered all about, constant warfare, and how generally massive the imperium of man is, I doubt it's easy to dedicate the resources to reign in and control a bunch of extremely proud, zealous supersoldier who probably don't appreciate having somebody looking over their shoulder.

Exactly, yes.

The really important thing to remember in discussions about organisation of the Imperium is just how massive and unwieldy it is. It's not just a case of the right hand not knowing what the left is doing, it's so much more than that.

Think about a modern government, and how different police and military authorities can step on each others toes, or how different agencies are working towards different policies and conflict with each other. Now multiply that by millions.

Communication across the galaxy take a long time too. When things like warp storms come in to play, it can take literally generations to get a message between Terra and a fringe world, let alone for Terra to send any support. The person who sent a message might have died of old age by the time it is received. There are instances of units being dispatched to respond to a conflict that is over by the time they get there, but they don't know so they engage anyway and restart the conflict. Two Imperium forces fighting each other might well be acting under orders from higher up in the Imperium, but that were issued by people who weren't properly communicating with each other, or the orders are simply massively out of date.

It's basically a huge uncontrollable mess, so Terra is forced for the most part to let all of the various organisations under it work things out for themselves. Unless either it threatens to significantly damage the facade of the Imperium being in control, or it's a genuine threat to the continued existence of the Imperium like a Black Crusade or a Tyranid Give Fleet.

Stux wrote:

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

I don't think the policy has been "slack" per se, it's just that with space marine chapters scattered all about, constant warfare, and how generally massive the imperium of man is, I doubt it's easy to dedicate the resources to reign in and control a bunch of extremely proud, zealous supersoldier who probably don't appreciate having somebody looking over their shoulder.

Exactly, yes.

The really important thing to remember in discussions about organisation of the Imperium is just how massive and unwieldy it is. It's not just a case of the right hand not knowing what the left is doing, it's so much more than that.

Think about a modern government, and how different police and military authorities can step on each others toes, or how different agencies are working towards different policies and conflict with each other. Now multiply that by millions.

Communication across the galaxy take a long time too. When things like warp storms come in to play, it can take literally generations to get a message between Terra and a fringe world, let alone for Terra to send any support. The person who sent a message might have died of old age by the time it is received. There are instances of units being dispatched to respond to a conflict that is over by the time they get there, but they don't know so they engage anyway and restart the conflict. Two Imperium forces fighting each other might well be acting under orders from higher up in the Imperium, but that were issued by people who weren't properly communicating with each other, or the orders are simply massively out of date.

It's basically a huge uncontrollable mess, so Terra is forced for the most part to let all of the various organisations under it work things out for themselves. Unless either it threatens to significantly damage the facade of the Imperium being in control, or it's a genuine threat to the continued existence of the Imperium like a Black Crusade or a Tyranid Give Fleet.

there is also the strange nature of time due to the warp etc the blood angels for example, where effectivly fighting the Tyranids for 70 years before Gulliman arrived, but for them the fighting had lasted months at best

Exactly, yes.

The really important thing to remember in discussions about organisation of the Imperium is just how massive and unwieldy it is. It's not just a case of the right hand not knowing what the left is doing, it's so much more than that.

Think about a modern government, and how different police and military authorities can step on each others toes, or how different agencies are working towards different policies and conflict with each other. Now multiply that by millions.

Communication across the galaxy take a long time too. When things like warp storms come in to play, it can take literally generations to get a message between Terra and a fringe world, let alone for Terra to send any support. The person who sent a message might have died of old age by the time it is received. There are instances of units being dispatched to respond to a conflict that is over by the time they get there, but they don't know so they engage anyway and restart the conflict. Two Imperium forces fighting each other might well be acting under orders from higher up in the Imperium, but that were issued by people who weren't properly communicating with each other, or the orders are simply massively out of date.

It's basically a huge uncontrollable mess, so Terra is forced for the most part to let all of the various organisations under it work things out for themselves. Unless either it threatens to significantly damage the facade of the Imperium being in control, or it's a genuine threat to the continued existence of the Imperium like a Black Crusade or a Tyranid Give Fleet.

^That, plus made all the worse by religious fundamentalism, regression of technology, suppression of free thought, rejection of innovation, tyranny, incompetence, classism, and all these other things that makes 40k so grimdark. It's a wonder it stands at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

there is also the strange nature of time due to the warp etc the blood angels for example, where effectivly fighting the Tyranids for 70 years before Gulliman arrived, but for them the fighting had lasted months at best

You don't actually need the warp for that. Time passes differently in space than it does on a world because gravity affects time. You could travel to saturn in, say, five years and come back to find a hundred had passed while you were gone. (Don't know the exact number TBH)

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

You don't actually need the warp for that. Time passes differently in space than it does on a world because gravity affects time. You could travel to saturn in, say, five years and come back to find a hundred had passed while you were gone. (Don't know the exact number TBH)

The first bit is accurate, however bodies have to be much more massive than Saturn to cause time dilated to that order of magnitude.

Saturn is more massive than Earth, so time on the 'surface' of Saturn (it's gaseous, so difficult to say exactly what you count as surface!) will pass more slowly than on earth. But it wouldn't be noticeable to people, you would need very accurate atomic clocks to measure the difference. I don't know the exact figure either, but it's likely something along the lines of for every year on Earth, the person on Saturn would have a year plus a few seconds.

When you get near something like a black hole, theoretically, is when the dilation gets really significant. But warp shenanigans in 40k work too!

NOTE: for anyone that has seen Interstellar, the time dilation they experience between the surface of the planet with the big waves and the ship in orbit are totally ridiculous and implausible! Absolute artistic license to the extreme. If the planet was massive enough to cause that kind of dilation, it would crush their ship and their suits in to nothing instantaneously. There's no way water could move on a planet like that either, the gravity would be too strong. In fact it would probably stop being water, broken down by the gravity in to smaller things.

Stux wrote:
On that note, how strict is enforcement of the Codex Astartes? The ultramarines and many others follow it religiously, but others completely disobey it. It's not so strange that heroic and popular chapters like the BA or SW can get away with it, but then there are lesser chapters like the Raptors who completely disregard it (as a strategy guide, at least) whenever it suits them. Does the inquisition just leave you alone so long as you do not exceed 1000 marines?

What?

May I ask how BA or Raptors ignore Codex? Both are 100% Codex compliant chapters...

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:
Isn't it the case that the templars are abusing a loophole? Sigismund saw that "a crusading chapter may exceed 1000 marines" and basically went "cool, all I have to do is constantly crusade and I can have all the marines I want", right? The black templar are like... I've heard the figure six thousand, which would make them the mighties space marine chapter in the galaxy.

6000 thing is fanon stemming from someone illiterate adding up all crusades on map (ignoring the fact some of them were hundreds of years apart or even actually the same crusade in different spot). Last official GW explanation was 900 'full' marines plus exploiting loophole stating 10th company in crusading chapters can be bigger to more easily replace long term losses (hence why BT seem to like bullet catchers in carapace so much). Taken literally, it means they have around 1400+ marines (which checks out, seeing 900 BT on Armageddon was vast majority of them) and are ironically pretty Codex compliant too...

The Codex Astartes isn't really a stragty guide. the idea that it's some sort of paint by numbers guide to tactics is pretty wron. there are tactics in it, but the bulk of the codex consists of orginizational stuff, this can obviously lend itself to tactics as obviously if your main line battle companies are orginized with 6 tac squads, 2 devestator and 2 assault it's going to inform your stragety,

rather the codex lays out how a space marine chapter is orginized, how they are equipped, staffed run, managed etc, Gulliman was a logistics guy, the codex Astartes is a guide to space Marine logistics, first and foremost

 Irbis wrote:

What?

May I ask how BA or Raptors ignore Codex? Both are 100% Codex compliant chapters...

I'm not familiar enough with Raptors, but Blood Angels use non-codex units such as Death Company, and certain Dreadnought and Predator patterns.

Admittedly these are much smaller infractions than say the Black Templars or Space Wolves, but they still go against the codex.

Stux wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

What?

May I ask how BA or Raptors ignore Codex? Both are 100% Codex compliant chapters...

I'm not familiar enough with Raptors, but Blood Angels use non-codex units such as Death Company, and certain Dreadnought and Predator patterns.

Admittedly these are much smaller infractions than say the Black Templars or Space Wolves, but they still go against the codex.

The Codex doesn't tell you how to put guns on tank. It would be stupid. See - Land Raider Crusader everyone uses despite it being recent invention, or Stalker/Hunter. It just tells you it's nice to have armoured company for dealing with X, Y, and Z, not what exactly should be in each of these. Compared to these, BA 'infractions' are nothing.

Death Company is admittedly a bigger deal, but it's not a change in Codex organization. It's ad hoc, temporary unit that is usually used once and spent right here and then. If Tyrannic war veterans, similar ad hoc unit (albeit a longer lasting one) was declared Codex compliant after long trial as it was 'just' a handful of First company squads, only optimized to deal with certain enemy, then Death Company is just temporary assault squad, problem solved.