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Leo_the_Rat wrote:
But that's the case for everyone for any argument. The basis of one's opinion only carry as much weight as one's credentials. If a person makes a claim then he had better have either proof or a darn good background in the area opined. If AJ Foyt were to say that car X was faster than car Y I'd be inclined to believe him until he was proven wrong just based on who he is and what he's done.

Then you'll be manipulated. If you believe a person just because he/she is important, without even asking for empirical evidence, well. Is your choice.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Maybe there's new Gretchin models coming out with the Ork codex and this article is just trying to help GW shift their older models that they have in stock?

It's a shame really because he missed the primary reason to buy a box of Grots - to make them in to pseudo ammo runts!

There was an older Rumour pic that looked like a Ork vehicle whell. Lady Atia said that theres gonna be new Wartrakk and Warbuggies models. So I believe the Ork Codex is one of the ones that will come with new models in 8th.

Remember all the other nonsense Reece said too? That Necrons would be good? At this point, he's either willfully ignorant or little more than a paid shill. In fact I'd argue him and his cronies are part of the reason 40k is such a dumpster fire right now.

 Galas wrote:
Reece has presented 10 reasons why he believe Gretchings are the best ork unit. They are nearly all easely defeated by basic math and logic. I wasn't defending the affirmation that Reece has said. I just disagreed with the idea that one need to have "credentials" to even give his opinion in the matter.

I agree with all of the above. Reece's codex (p)reviews are pretty obviously just mealy-mouthed, overblown hype, but I stopped paying attention for real when he went on and on about how amazing and game-changing Tau suits were going to be thanks to the FLY keyword. Then Riptides became lascannon predators that cost twice as much, hit less, and take a wound for doing so. Pass on FLG. Buy on solid, rational arguments, regardless of the source's pedigree.

shortymcnostrill wrote:
On his fifth point: how do you block fall back moves with da jump when da jump makes you deploy outside of 9". Could be me, but I think he thinks you can just plop em down wherever you want.

If they actually do the grave error of allowing deep strikes behind them, you could also to the same with boyz and assault the very same unit and force them to fall back towards the rest of your army. You only have one jump per turn, why waste it on a unit without offensive capabilities?

I also like him advocating simultaneously buffing grots with:
-Ghazkull
-2 runtherds
-Waaagh banner nob
-Weirdboy
-Did I miss any?

It's like with Eldar Storm Guardians. You can slap a load of buffs on them and make them sort of ok melee troops, or you can instead give a worthwhile unit fewer buffs and get a far better result.

It gretchin actually were ok melee troops after all that, he would at least get points for creating a silly but fun list.
However, even with gretchin buffed by ~500 points of characters and their horde bonus, they have 90 attacks S2 (!) AP 0 hitting on 3+ an re-rolling ones.
90 Attacks become 70 hits, 11 wounds against T4+, 3.88 damage against 3+ armor.
If you get 15 slugga boyz for the same points, they will get 75 attacks hitting on 2+ for 62.5 hits, 31.25 wound against T4, 20.83 against T5-T7 and 10.41 against T8+.
Assuming they get the green tide bonus as well, you would be up to 90 attacks, hitting 75, wounding 37.5/25/12.5
So, in terms of offense, gretchin only outperform boyz by a thin margin if you are attacking T8 targets - unless you drop the runtherd for a PK nob and two boyz. Of course, I'm ignoring logistic issues like getting 30 gretchin close enough to fight or them most likely losing their horde bonus very quickly.

For defense, you have to keep in mind that gretchin are T2, so a hurricane bolter at 12" (or any other S4 attacks) will hit 8, wound 6.66 gretchin, but only 4 boyz. An assault cannon will hit 2.66 and wound 2.22 gretchin but but only 1.77 boyz. Ten lasguns at 12" hit 10, wound 6.66 gretchin and 3.33 boyz.
However, even with FNP and KFF gretchin units will almost always lose an additional d3 gretchin to the runtherd, warboss or thrakka (or be wiped out by moral), while boyz will usually never fail moral until more than 15 models get killed in a single turn. Which means that gretchin are only more survivable when someone bothers to wipe them out, while they take more casualties when someone just tries to kill 5 models from every mob - it's not like they are dangerous in any way, so you can just force moral tests by shooting excess weapons like rhino bolters their way.
So in general, gretchin are about 62% more survivable per point to stuff which wounds boyz on 3+, 66.66% against S4 and exactly as survivable against S3. However, they are still easier to clear off an objective than boyz. A lot leasier, unless you put 60 gretchin within 3" of an objective.

I can see the argument of using them as first line of defense against berzerkers, genestealers, daemons, deathwing and other stuff that assaults you turn 1, but unless you are facing such units, you have wasted points. Plus I find it questionable whether you actually need to screen 6ppm units. That's like using brimstone horrors to screen poxwalkers.
Then again, to screen boyz, you'd need to deploy them at least further back, which in turn means later charges. No thanks.

I also don't think that Reece is involved in some sort of evil plot to make us buy bad models. At worst, the article is click-bait, but I guess he is just one of those players who will argue for any unit to be awesome. I know a couple of those. Just read one of the FLG reviews - while very great at talking about what units can do, their rating system only has three possible values - very awesome, awesome and sometimes awesome.
If anything, we now know to ignore his opinion on everything that's in the new ork codex.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:That's not the point. If he wants to make those claims then he should be able to back them up with solid proof/credentials. It's even more important in this instance since he has the ear of GW and can exert influence that most of us can't even aspire to.

You choose to not counter the argument, but attack the messenger. Because Dakka has been turned Reece into a Boogeyman for everything they hate about 8th.

Jidmah wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
If that is the measure of qualification, then how many tournament winners are in this thread currently?

At the very least he should have any games at all in major tournaments to prove his thesis. What he did is pretty much equivalent to me going into the GK tactical thread and telling them how awesome GK Terminator spam is because smiting terminators with awesome weapons will totally ruin guardsmen in combat.

It's perfectly fine to disagree with someone or their argument. I was taking issue with the snark directed at the person.

I think Dakka is just wearing me down. I don't have the tolerance for the amount of bs that goes on here anymore.

Its quite clear that grots are indeed the best unit in the work index list.

you simply need a bit of small print to define what you mean by 'best', for example they are the 'best' way to get the enemy to waste time killing something that doesn't matter

they are the best way to cause laughter when an opponent who thought they were T:3, the same as goblins, discovers they are actually T:2

they are the best way to frustrate an opponent who decides there is no kill like overkill and splats all but one in a unit through firepower and morale


its just you need to define the word "best" to be in no way shape or form related to in game performance

Reece is a GW salesman/shill now, and has been for awhile. Any sense of objectivity he may have had from being a tournament player has long since disappeared.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Reece is a GW salesman/shill now, and has been for awhile. Any sense of objectivity he may have had from being a tournament player has long since disappeared.

I don't think thats true, he has always been like that. Back in 7th he said Vespids were usefull. Not even competitive, but usefull. And that was a bigger strentch that saying Grots are the best ork unit in 8th!

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:That's not the point. If he wants to make those claims then he should be able to back them up with solid proof/credentials. It's even more important in this instance since he has the ear of GW and can exert influence that most of us can't even aspire to.

You choose to not counter the argument, but attack the messenger.

In this case not the messenger but the author. It's not a personal attack. I'm questioning his ability to make an informed statement. He is making a statement of fact (using his opinion as fact). Just like any other expert (which he is claiming he is) is expertise is open to questioning. It is normal to question his credentials before going after his statement since if his bona fides don't qualify as expert then whatever he says has no more weight than anyone else's opinion.

Your the person who said I'd be a fool just for accepting a person's opinion. How I go about questioning that opinion is my responsibility.

I love using them and have 100 grots (some need more painting though)

They aren't really a fighting unit but fill other roles.

-They are great for gathering CPs
-They can hold rear objectives
-I like to soak up fire in assault if they charge first
-They can deny deep strikes
-They can work as powerklaw-delivery-system(pkds)
-You can use them as a tar pit against characters or vehikles
-If you bring painboyz, warboss and big mek (part of the pkds) they can take some more hits.

Begone foul thredromancer!

Oh boy a necro

Remember when Reece said from his playtesting that we should be excited because Burnas, Ork Walkers, and Powerklaws at 20+ points were gonna rule this edition? I do, and I still hate him and distrust any speculation from FLG. I might watch a youtube batrep from them but that is it.

 Rismonite wrote:
Oh boy a necro

Remember when Reece said from his playtesting that we should be excited because Burnas, Ork Walkers, and Powerklaws at 20+ points were gonna rule this edition? I do, and I still hate him and distrust any speculation from FLG. I might watch a youtube batrep from them but that is it.

Don't forget him talking about how the Stompa was an absolute beast and was going to be amazing.

when it comes to the Ork faction, Reece isn't trusted in the slightest, As for grotz, I have only run into 1 situation where they were MORE useful then just more boyz, and that is when I NEED a troops choice and only have 40pts left.

 Rismonite wrote:
Oh boy a necro

Remember when Reece said from his playtesting that we should be excited because Burnas, Ork Walkers, and Powerklaws at 20+ points were gonna rule this edition? I do, and I still hate him and distrust any speculation from FLG. I might watch a youtube batrep from them but that is it.

Foolishly you said his name before the release of your codex. Now you've doomed all Ork players to a bad codex.

You shouldn't play with dark forces.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Reece is a GW salesman/shill now, and has been for awhile. Any sense of objectivity he may have had from being a tournament player has long since disappeared.

This guy is so used to power gaming he doesn't actually know how to play the game.... anyone who says the stompa is a good unit needs to rethink their own 40k career.

You guys went full T'au man, never go full T'au.

Piling on the necro:

I always bring a couple of units of grots:

1) I put them on an objective and just leave them there. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. The best thing is when someone rolls up with an elite or FA and can't take the objective because grots have Objective Secured.
2) They fill out a brigade for me, with 120 boyz.
3) There is no 3. That is all they are good for. But for 60 points that is enough.

Don't get me wrong... an amzing unit both lore wise and model wise but saying they're the bets thing we got is just wack. 2 per Ork Boyz doesn't really mean much when you add that 4 strength.

Quick analysis based on just using them purely as a objective secure and buffer. I don't care for mathhammer programs so will be using my own dice and rolling 10 times for each. So maths will probably suck here but I like to use real world examples.

You got 10 dakka from der beakies squad wanting dat objective.
If dey shoot yah grots yah likely to lose 4-5 of de litle gitz.
Yah gunu lose dem in moral phase unless yah add da runt 'erder Dat der is gunu cost ya like 26pts rit der and a min if 1 grot per turn. So yah looking at 30 grots costing yah like 24 boyz and yah losing a min 1 per turn or even 3 depending on yah blue luck. Der be 5 or 6 ded grotz all over yah lovely objectives. Property gunu be 7 or 8 do cus those little buggers love to die but I'm gunu say yah left with 24 grots

But yah look at dat boyz and der green glory. Okay... so letz be kind tah yah little gitz and only bring 24 boyz same as dat der runty guy and 30 grots. So yah got dakkad by da beakies again and yah now losing like 2 maybe 3 if yah angered Gawky. Moral from this? Pffft, yah tugging mah squig? So afta all dat yah now got 21 golden boyz.

Best unit no but 3pts wounds is pretty good. Against bunch of weapons as tough or tougher than boyz and better for job that requires unit to die. Like da jumping 60" wall front of tyranids/knights they can't move past freely.

Many times boyz or grots do needed task as well. Grots just do it cheaper. So i have mix of both.

Oh and 30 been surprisingly good at clearing screens which orks struggle

I too only see them useful if I absolutely need a troop slot filled and I lack the points for a unit of Boyz. When it comes to holding mid field or at times even further objectives (Da Jump) I prefer full size Shoota Boyz mobz. Back field objectives are held very well by Mek Gunz. Screening I also prefer a full size mob of Shoota Boyz. 30 wounds with ork toughness or swap in a Nob of course with immunity to morale. A high volume overwatch. And still 3 attacks in melee at 3+ to hit and S4 so it's more likely that whatever is taking on this mob probably doesn't have obsec.

Wayniac wrote:
Remember all the other nonsense Reece said too? That Necrons would be good? At this point, he's either willfully ignorant or little more than a paid shill. In fact I'd argue him and his cronies are part of the reason 40k is such a dumpster fire right now.

Dumpster fire? I am absolutely enjoying 40k right now. The models are cool, the rules are much easier to learn, and the games go quickly.

Also, Reece is super dreamy.

I've used grots in my armies for about 20 years. I can only remember a few lists that I didn't bring them. I kinda feel like somethings missing if I don't have them. Are they the best? No. Are they the worst? No. I always find a use for them and have over the years used them to put the fear onto other players. Later they see grots and become worried. But they're just grots so I can't expect too much from them .Hell I've had them kill a DE Archon on close combat at least twice in 3rd edition.

I haven't really read anything from FLG since the Indexes. Certainly some of the assertions were... optimistic. I think Reece would have been better served saying various options were "okay in a casual setting, rather than bordering on unplayable due to the core rules as many things were in 7th."

I think the best claim as how index Harlequins are going to rule the roost. Sure against an un-optimised mess of MEQ - but I can fairly easily create army list A, B & C where they are just going to die. (To be fair they did have a bit of a run due to pre-nerf ynnari and lots of people bringing weird unoptimised MEQ lists to tournaments.)

I like grots and still - like so many - have a fantasy of constructing a rebel grot army with 250~ of them flood the table alongside mek guns & killa kans. (To be fair can't imagine I'd be popular when moving the army takes 20 minutes.)

Unfortunately I don't think they are competitive. If you go MSU for cheap objective grabbing you are giving up cheap kill points. If you start spending a lot of points on big mobs of 30 plus a runt herd you could just grab more boyz which bring more upside.

Its possible they could get a screening rule in the codex which might help more toy focused armies. (Gunz, Tankbustas, Flashgits etc)

Yeha, I think most of us agree that grots are pretty awesome and honestly wouldn't mind if they were the best unit (at £10 the box I wouldn't mind that at all ) but yes... saying their the best unit is wrong and just shows how little he understands the ork index.

Also will never forgive him for his stompa comments.

I'd love a grot revolution army full of stompas.
Just to piss people off.

ValentineGames wrote:
I'd love a grot revolution army full of stompas.
Just to piss people off.

Sounds awesome.

People won't be mad at you for that. We're not mad at Reece for saying "Play with Grots and Stompas, they're fun!" we're mad because he said they're amazing units.

Whadda you know, people get upset when they're lied to. Hope Reece stays on a short chain.

 lolman1c wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Reece is a GW salesman/shill now, and has been for awhile. Any sense of objectivity he may have had from being a tournament player has long since disappeared.

This guy is so used to power gaming he doesn't actually know how to play the game.... anyone who says the stompa is a good unit needs to rethink their own 40k career.

I jokingly said GW paid off Reece when 8th dropped to give good reviews to crap units and apparently the joke is spreading I don't think GW paid him off, but wow is he a moron when it comes to what is good and what is not good in the Ork army.

The scariest part is Reece plays Orks, so it's not like he's just speculating on stuff he has no handle on...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The scariest part is Reece plays Orks, so it's not like he's just speculating on stuff he has no handle on...

Which is agree the scariest part....I don't have a clue what he was thinking when he made those predictions, Kanz would be amazing and the Stompa was too tough to die.....If you actually do the math, a Stompa is EASIER to kill this edition then last edition except against Melta.