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Dawn Eagles are rocking storm bolters no less.

Custodes were around way before GK and have always been portrayed as better than any SM... it’s just the way it is.

 Primark G wrote:
Dawn Eagles are rocking storm bolters no less.

Custodes were around way before GK and have always been portrayed as better than any SM... it’s just the way it is.

Jet Bikes that cost how many Grey Knights each again?

I mean you're not selling me on the idea that Custodes can out shoot Grey Knights quantity wise. Quality, sure, but not quantity.

If and when FW release 40k rules for the Telemon that is a super ranged weapon platform.

 Primark G wrote:
If and when FW release 40k rules for the Telemon that is a super ranged weapon platform.

And isn't relevant to the current discussion since it has no rules and doesn't make the rest of the army better at shooting, just gives it another shooty dread addition.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Dawn Eagles are rocking storm bolters no less.

Custodes were around way before GK and have always been portrayed as better than any SM... it’s just the way it is.

Jet Bikes that cost how many Grey Knights each again?

I mean you're not selling me on the idea that Custodes can out shoot Grey Knights quantity wise. Quality, sure, but not quantity.

The Bikes actually rock Hurricane Bolters.

One squad of bikes is, when combined, Rapid Fire 18 with 24" max range, so 36 shots within 12". It's 270 points. 10 Strikes with 2 Psilencers are 214 and will get you 32 bolter shots within 12" and 12 Psilencer shots.

So the Grey Knights can do a bit better in volume...but not by a lot.

It is relevant though because it will happen. Of course Custodes are -not- meant to be played SAFH.

 Primark G wrote:
If and when FW release 40k rules for the Telemon that is a super ranged weapon platform.

A shooty Telemon in 30K runs 360 points. No real reason to assume it'll get cheaper and may well be more. Grey Knights can buy Dreadnoughts with Twin Lascannons and Missile Launchers for 162 points, so less than half the cost of the Telemon.

Audustum wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Dawn Eagles are rocking storm bolters no less.

Custodes were around way before GK and have always been portrayed as better than any SM... it’s just the way it is.

Jet Bikes that cost how many Grey Knights each again?

I mean you're not selling me on the idea that Custodes can out shoot Grey Knights quantity wise. Quality, sure, but not quantity.

The Bikes actually rock Hurricane Bolters.

One squad of bikes is, when combined, Rapid Fire 18 with 24" max range, so 36 shots within 12". It's 270 points. 10 Strikes with 2 Psilencers are 214 and will get you 32 bolter shots within 12" and 12 Psilencer shots.

So the Grey Knights can do a bit better in volume...but not by a lot.

When compared to one unit in the army (or a specific even more elite army build if you go all bikes), yes this is true, but one unit choice doesn't trump the status of the whole army.

I think it’s obvious Custodes are not meant to be played as SAFH.

Primark G wrote:It is relevant though because it will happen. Of course Custodes are meant to be played SAFH.

Primark G wrote:I think it’s obvious Custodes are not meant to be played as SAFH.

Please pick a position before you give us all whiplash.

I alwasy wonder how further GW can take the elite of the elite trope. Space marines are like Guard but better, Grey Knights are like Space Marines but better, Custodes are like Grey Knights but better! I guess whatever sells I suppose.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Primark G wrote:It is relevant though because it will happen. Of course Custodes are meant to be played SAFH.

Primark G wrote:I think it’s obvious Custodes are not meant to be played as SAFH.

Please pick a position before you give us all whiplash.

Not SAFH.

 Frontline989 wrote:
I alwasy wonder how further GW can take the elite of the elite trope. Space marines are like Guard but better, Grey Knights are like Space Marines but better, Custodes are like Grey Knights but better! I guess whatever sells I suppose.

Primarchs are like Custodes but better! The Emperor is like the Primarchs but better!

 pumaman1 wrote:
Low model count, high potency (but low true survivablity) power armor, now in gold instead of silver.
Oh but they are better b/c they are new. Sales

I can't wait until we get the platinum powered armor faction! :/

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Dawn Eagles are rocking storm bolters no less.

Custodes were around way before GK and have always been portrayed as better than any SM... it’s just the way it is.

Jet Bikes that cost how many Grey Knights each again?

I mean you're not selling me on the idea that Custodes can out shoot Grey Knights quantity wise. Quality, sure, but not quantity.

The Bikes actually rock Hurricane Bolters.

One squad of bikes is, when combined, Rapid Fire 18 with 24" max range, so 36 shots within 12". It's 270 points. 10 Strikes with 2 Psilencers are 214 and will get you 32 bolter shots within 12" and 12 Psilencer shots.

So the Grey Knights can do a bit better in volume...but not by a lot.

When compared to one unit in the army (or a specific even more elite army build if you go all bikes), yes this is true, but one unit choice doesn't trump the status of the whole army.

Umm, I gave you the most cost effective shooting from each Codex. It's a pretty fair comparison.

Most GK's agree our only good units are Dreadknight GM's, Strikes, Paladins and Apothecaries. Custodes seem to agree our only good units so far are Shield Captains and Bikes. Jury is still out on the rest.

Allarus are good too.

 Primark G wrote:
Allarus are good too.

Way too expensive for what they offer. I haven't seen anyone in the Tactics thread really rise to their defense instead of just taking more Bikes.

They are working great for me.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Sure, though to me at least, thats a nuance thing. Neither are really shooting armies, many GK armies through the history of the game have had practically no shooting, and the HH Custodes stuff hasnt been ported over which is where lots of their shooty stuff (and rifle equipped infantry) is.

My point is that Custodes are almost completely a melee only army while GK are more all rounder due to having more tools for dealing with stuff at range while not being bad (though not exceptional because Space Marines) at melee.

Not being able to deal with stuff at range? Hurricane Bolters and D2 AP-1 Bolters aren't enough for dealing with threats at range?

Please don't pretend Grey Knights are any better at range combat because they aren't.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Sure, though to me at least, thats a nuance thing. Neither are really shooting armies, many GK armies through the history of the game have had practically no shooting, and the HH Custodes stuff hasnt been ported over which is where lots of their shooty stuff (and rifle equipped infantry) is.

My point is that Custodes are almost completely a melee only army while GK are more all rounder due to having more tools for dealing with stuff at range while not being bad (though not exceptional because Space Marines) at melee.

Not being able to deal with stuff at range? Hurricane Bolters and D2 AP-1 Bolters aren't enough for dealing with threats at range?

Please don't pretend Grey Knights are any better at range combat because they aren't.

It depends on the target. Grey Knights are a lot better at shooting chaff through sheer volume (PAGK have around 4x the S4 shots per point that Custodes do), but they're also wildly ineffectual at shooting anything that isn't chaff while Custodes aren't.

So when it comes to shooting Custodes are okay against most things with a Guardsman-sized blind spot, while Grey Knights are crap against most things with the noted exception of T3 chaff.

(He may mean "all-rounder" because Grey Knights can mix weapons freely on their Dreadnaughts while the Custodes have two anti-armour ranged weapons (lascannons on the LR and the melta-missiles)?)

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Sure, though to me at least, thats a nuance thing. Neither are really shooting armies, many GK armies through the history of the game have had practically no shooting, and the HH Custodes stuff hasnt been ported over which is where lots of their shooty stuff (and rifle equipped infantry) is.

My point is that Custodes are almost completely a melee only army while GK are more all rounder due to having more tools for dealing with stuff at range while not being bad (though not exceptional because Space Marines) at melee.

Not being able to deal with stuff at range? Hurricane Bolters and D2 AP-1 Bolters aren't enough for dealing with threats at range?

Please don't pretend Grey Knights are any better at range combat because they aren't.

It depends on the target. Grey Knights are a lot better at shooting chaff through sheer volume (PAGK have around 4x the S4 shots per point that Custodes do), but they're also wildly ineffectual at shooting anything that isn't chaff while Custodes aren't.

So when it comes to shooting Custodes are okay against most things with a Guardsman-sized blind spot, while Grey Knights are crap against most things with the noted exception of T3 chaff.

(He may mean "all-rounder" because Grey Knights can mix weapons freely on their Dreadnaughts while the Custodes have two anti-armour ranged weapons (lascannons on the LR and the melta-missiles)?)

Heck, we don't even know which units are gonna be ported over from 30k like GW said they would.

And honestly if taking a LC/ML on a Dread qualifies as AT to him I don't know what else to say.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Frontline989 wrote:
I alwasy wonder how further GW can take the elite of the elite trope. Space marines are like Guard but better, Grey Knights are like Space Marines but better, Custodes are like Grey Knights but better! I guess whatever sells I suppose.

Primarchs are like Custodes but better! The Emperor is like the Primarchs but better!

I completely forgot about Primaris too!

Pecking order!

Infantry < Scions < Space Marines < Deathwatch < Grey Knights < Custodes < Primaris < Primarchs < Emperor

Did I miss anyone?

Primaris should be between Space Marines and Deathwatch. For now we don't have specialized/veteran Primaris units.

You can put conscripts behind Infantry.

No idea about other people - but for me its because Custodes are how Grey Knights should have been going back... 15ish years(?).

Rather than psychic rubbish and psycannons it should just have
just been super elite. Every "marine" is a captain.

Its a bit late now - the genie is out of the bubble and Grey Knights are locked in as "good Thousand Sons with the baby carrier" - but all the way back to 3rd edition that has been my view.

You can put the Chaos Gods after the Emperor.

There, I said it.

 LunarSol wrote:
Pecking order!

Infantry < Scions < Space Marines < Deathwatch < Grey Knights < Custodes < Primaris < Primarchs < Emperor

Did I miss anyone?

Sisters and Skitarri who should fall in between Scions and Space Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
You can put the Chaos Gods after the Emperor.

There, I said it.

Put the C'Tan and Eldar Gods between the Primarchs and the Emperor, Gork and Mor above the Chaos Gods and The Tyranids Hive Mind above everything.

 Galas wrote:
Primaris should be between Space Marines and Deathwatch. For now we don't have specialized/veteran Primaris units.

You can put conscripts behind Infantry.

Yeah, I wasn't totally sure where to drop Primaris. Good call on Conscripts.

This thread is mostly bitter GK players. The thing is they have not been competitive since 5th edition which if my math is correct - that is three editions ago. Time to move on.

 Primark G wrote:
This thread is mostly bitter GK players. The thing is they have not been competitive since 5th edition which if my math is correct - that is three editions ago. Time to move on.

And they say the American education system is failing. Seriously, though, from an outsider's perspective, both are Super Soldiers+, focused on elite infantry while borrowing some transports from the main Space Marine line, and both feature a metallic color scheme. I'm not surprised to see GK players screaming "They took our jobs!"