Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

You should have bottled up his tears to use as flamer fuel in your next game. I wouldn't have given either concession to him that you did. Hats off to you for being that generous. There are certainly enough trade offs when considering 25's or 32's that there really is no distinct advantage in modeling them either way.

Veridyan comes on a 32mm base, but she no longer exists in the army list. She can fill in as a Canoness or even a Sister Superior. They come on 25mm bases. Just because she is a newer model she gets a 32mm base when any other model in those roles doesn't?

The new Celestine and Geminae come on a 40mm and two 32mm. Nothing says my old Celestine has to change her base size because of that. Nothing says my old Seraphim Superior stand-ins for Geminae can't be fielded on 25's as well.

When I bought my Sisters models they all came with 25mm bases, they are going to stay on 25mm bases. So long as GW is straddling the fence on what goes on this base or goes on that base I see it as allowing you to do what you want when considering 25's and 32's. I want them all to match, deal with it.

I would say that the general rule of proxying would require you to use a model with the same size as the actual model. So yes, as far as I'm concerned, you couldn't use a 25mm seraphim to proxy as a 32mm geminae.

Tourny players vary, like anyone else.

At the same tournament I had a guy argue with me over if Night Fighting went into effect if neither player declared it (He said it automatically did if noone said anything, I said it didn't, I offered to dice it off, he refused, called the judge, was proven wrong, then threw a fit and started making up rules... the game was over after he pulled on Turn 1, at least!) and, later, a guy bought me a beer to take the sour taste out fo my mouth and we had a good game together. (My third opponent was also an amazing dude with an amazing Nurgle army!)

Sometimes you gotta deal with trash people in this hobby, but such is life, no? Don't let an occassional bad experience or two stop you from enjoying it, and if you had the wallet and mental fortitude (not to mention arm strength to carry that case) to play a Sisters army, you should darn well go out and enjoy it!

 Crazyterran wrote:
Tourny players vary, like anyone else.

At the same tournament I had a guy argue with me over if Night Fighting went into effect if neither player declared it (He said it automatically did if noone said anything, I said it didn't, I offered to dice it off, he refused, called the judge, was proven wrong, then threw a fit and started making up rules... the game was over after he pulled on Turn 1, at least!) and, later, a guy bought me a beer to take the sour taste out fo my mouth and we had a good game together. (My third opponent was also an amazing dude with an amazing Nurgle army!)

Sometimes you gotta deal with trash people in this hobby, but such is life, no? Don't let an occassional bad experience or two stop you from enjoying it, and if you had the wallet and mental fortitude (not to mention arm strength to carry that case) to play a Sisters army, you should darn well go out and enjoy it!

I've met way more awesome people than garbage ones at tournaments and it's one of the big reasons I continue to go. Some people like to chat about the latest football game. I like to chat about warhammer games. Even better over a beer.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I would say that the general rule of proxying would require you to use a model with the same size as the actual model. So yes, as far as I'm concerned, you couldn't use a 25mm seraphim to proxy as a 32mm geminae.

How about Celestine who has been sold with both 25mm and 40mm bases? What page is the general rule of proxying on? Would you insist SoB models weren't on 32's?

No, if the model came on the base then that's the base that I'd have you use.

You are talking about using a proxy figure. If you are going to proxy a model then it should at least be comparable to the figure that it represents. In this instance the model you are replacing comes on a 32mm base. If you want to replace it with another model then it should have a 32mm base as well.

One instance isn't comparable to the other.

I'm going to echo what everyone else is saying -

Base size doesn't matter; as long as it's on at least the base size it came with (25mm), it's all good; the general rule is that going up in base sizes (25mm->32mm) isn't a problem [in many cases can actually be a negative during gameplay]. Going with smaller bases than the models normally come with is usually less acceptable.

As far as alternate models go - it's a fething miniature game, one that prides itself on it's personality and customization. As long as you aren't blatantly modeling for advantage (say, representing Mortarian/Magnus with a super small nurgling laying down on its base), it's not a problem - I picked an egregious example for a reason, but you get the point.

If you're REALLY worried that your model might be "modeling for advantage", or any other number of concerns; 1) Talk to the TO before hand and ask if there's a problem with any of your models, and 2) Bring a backup model (the actual model+base) incase people want to ask you to replace it/stand it in during their turn, for most accurate LOS representation.

But - most people aren't asshats - they're chill and understanding. This game is about having fun and customizing your models; if you aren't doing stupid shenanigans just for tournaments sake (you would know if you were), it's just people being salty losers.

Edit: And lastly, tournaments are tournaments - they can bring out the worse in some people (WAAC players), as something IS on the line (money, etc); don't let it get to you. Have fun, enjoy the hobby.

G'day mate, I'm going to answer your original question rather than talk about rules. Will you meet your necron blokes attitude in aussie tournaments?

I recently went to Cancon with two mates, 8 rounds each. I played 6 legends, had a great time with them. I played one rules lawyer who slowed the game down, he was nice about it, but all business no jokes. And I played one donkey-cave, who cheated, adjusted his dice behind buildings, argued about rules then conceded when I called for a TO, and generally whinged (like your necron mate). My two friends played 8 legends each, had no complaints other than perhaps some of their armies were not that competitive.

I think in general, from what I hear, aussies have a great time in tournaments almost exclusively. I would not be worried. When I started talking about the donkey-cave I paired with to other attendees, he was well known for that sh!t and largely considered an outlier.

Side note: my ork army is heavily converted (but fairly well painted) and I shortcut my movement a lot to save time. All my opponents bar one (the rules lawyer) allowed me some freedom in my model presentation and movement. They were there to have fun first, win second.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
No, if the model came on the base then that's the base that I'd have you use.

You are talking about using a proxy figure. If you are going to proxy a model then it should at least be comparable to the figure that it represents. In this instance the model you are replacing comes on a 32mm base. If you want to replace it with another model then it should have a 32mm base as well.

One instance isn't comparable to the other.

Celestine has been sold with both a 25mm at one time and a 40mm base at another. Which would you prefer?

In over 75 games of 8ed I haven't had anyone have a problem with it. Apart from my 45 stormbolter Dominions my models were painted and based long before Geminae were even a thing. If someone could come up with a logical explanation of how two models in a three model unit being on 25's vs 32's was somehow modeling for advantage. I'd scrap Celestine all together from my list and double up two more squads of melta Dominions to ride piggy back with my SB Doms.

I know which will do more damage, is that list building for advantage?

I think that it would be pretty silly to raise too much of a fuss over it, but other users have a point that if you're proxying models, they should probably be as close as possible to the same size as what they're proxying. This is especially the case considering the only direction we've been given from GW is to use the base the model came with. Using a smaller based Celestine is obviously ok for this reason, as you say. But for the Geminae, I could imagine people seeing it as modeling for advantage. That seems pretty silly to me, but as per the guidelines GW has given us they'd have a point.

 deviantduck wrote:
Celestine's wings are absolutely targetable. Any part of the model is, unless it doesn't have a base (vehicles). Then you're told to ignore things like sponsors, wings, etc. Thanks 8th for making it more confusing

Sponsons, wings, etc. (on models without bases) are not part of the "hull".

You measure to\from the hull. You still draw LoS to\from any part of the model.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
Celestine's wings are absolutely targetable. Any part of the model is, unless it doesn't have a base (vehicles). Then you're told to ignore things like sponsors, wings, etc. Thanks 8th for making it more confusing

Sponsons, wings, etc. (on models without bases) are not part of the "hull".

You measure to\from the hull. You still draw LoS to\from any part of the model.

What does that matter? Parts outside hull are only relevant on models without bases. On infantry it's irrelevant are wings considered part of "hull" or not. It's part of model just as head is.

I have already said that I'm fine with either version of Celestine.

If you don't feel like using the actual model, for whatever reason, then that's on you. I'm saying that if you're going to claim the ability to proxy as a courtesy then I'm going to demand an appropriate figure (which includes base size). Proxying is not a right it is a courtesy granted by your opponent. If that opponent doesn't want to grant that courtesy or puts strings on its use then that is his prerogative.

All my battle sisters are on 32mm bases, precisely because with 25mm bases regular sisters will fall over if on a slope, seraphim will fall over if gently brushed, and heavy weapons sisters will fall over whenever they darn well feel like.

If not having my minis scratch themselves out of the 'best painted' category is modelling for advantage I'm a dirty WAAC cheater.

In all seriousness I'm not a tourney player. I freely point out that sisters are normally on tiny 25mm bases and if anyone has a problem with it I'm ok with reducing certain measurements to make up the difference (squad coherency range becomes three quarters of an inch, enemy models are 0.14 inches further back then they would appear measuring from bases, etc.) and I've not had anybody take me up on it, or make an issue out of it.

I'd recommend you take a picture and advise the TO by e-mail, explain the reason is strictly to protect the model and get their permission. If not, don't go, or take something else.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
Celestine's wings are absolutely targetable. Any part of the model is, unless it doesn't have a base (vehicles). Then you're told to ignore things like sponsors, wings, etc. Thanks 8th for making it more confusing

Sponsons, wings, etc. (on models without bases) are not part of the "hull".

You measure to\from the hull. You still draw LoS to\from any part of the model.

Yep. I agree? That's why I said her wings are targetable as they are part of her model.

 deviantduck wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
Celestine's wings are absolutely targetable. Any part of the model is, unless it doesn't have a base (vehicles). Then you're told to ignore things like sponsors, wings, etc. Thanks 8th for making it more confusing

Sponsons, wings, etc. (on models without bases) are not part of the "hull".

You measure to\from the hull. You still draw LoS to\from any part of the model.

Yep. I agree? That's why I said her wings are targetable as they are part of her model.

You are correct about celestine but you are wrong about models without bases. Wings, sponsons, etc. are still targetable. You just can't measure from/to them.

Any part of the model is targetable... except banners.

I hope your just kidding. Per the rules if you can see any part of a model it's in your LoS.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
As far as Old Celestine vs. New Celestine, your opponent is just being an ass.

First off, antennae, gun barrels, and wings are not targetable parts of the model, so the change in size isn't an issue [and you have near-perfect control over whether she can or can't be shot anyway because she's a character], second she's still an official GW model for St.C.

Yes, they are targetable. You're thinking of 7th. LOS in 8th is to any part of the model.

Eh, maybe, but it's still entirely irrelevant for St.C's case.

She's got less than 10 wounds, so her controlling player has near absolute control over whether or not you can shoot her anyway.

Old Celestine is still valid anyway, in her as-issued configuration.