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 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
How is it bad writing that they didn't pick the same primarch you would have? What role does logic even play?

I'm gonna guess dark angel fan upset he didn't get a primarch

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
How is it bad writing that they didn't pick the same primarch you would have? What role does logic even play?

It's bad writing because they made a stupid choice because they didn't use any kind of logic. They didn't bring the Primarch I wanted back because I wouldn't have brought any back. They were relics of a time of hope that faded a long time ago which was the whole settings point.

The point of logic is that it makes good storytelling which for GW should be hugely important because as many people will tell you Warhammer is not a good game rulewise. It depends significantly on its lore to draw and keep people in the game.

There are five living Primarchs. Anyone can logically be brought back with aid from the Emperor or a psyker by the Imperium. Of these I would personally choose the Lion or the Khan but which one is really not that important. Then to bring back this Primarch they should have made a story around it which is where they can introduce their new factions like Custodes and SoS and the newer Nurgle stuff. This also allows a chance for other factions to be in the story so you can include Xenos fans.

Instead they brought back a dead person which comes across as just more dumb love for the poster Chapter, makes Guilleman a Mary Sue, made up some random Mechanicus character to justify the cashgrab of the Primaris and just reversed the whole character of the setting. Then made more cashgrabs.

They made an illogical choice and let it roll into a terrible story that just gives the finger to anyone who cares about the lore. That's a terrible move for a company that depends on people liking lore and models to sell their games because they cannot do rules well.


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BrianDavion wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
How is it bad writing that they didn't pick the same primarch you would have? What role does logic even play?

I'm gonna guess dark angel fan upset he didn't get a primarch

If I want to play with a Primarch I go and play 30k.

Any relation to Graeme Souness?

Sounds like a whole lot of bitterness on your part as opposed to anything to do with logic, really.

You could just say "I hate the way they wrote it" and it would be fine, but there isn't really anything objective in what you're arguing.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Sounds like a whole lot of bitterness on your part as opposed to anything to do with logic, really.

You could just say "I hate the way they wrote it" and it would be fine, but there isn't really anything objective in what you're arguing.

Honestly it sounds more like you can't be bothered responding to anything I say.

You'd prefer a certain set of things to have happened in the 40k narrative. Those things aren't what happened. You're frustrated about that. What exactly would you like me to respond to? Would you like me to give you my feelings on whether or not the things you wanted to happen would have been better than what we were given (i.e. the thing that matters)? Because I'm not really interested in that. Your preferences aren't super important to me, and I don't mean that as an insult. I wouldn't expect mine to be important to you either.

So far, every part of this discussion is subjective. That was my point. You were arguing as if there was some objective element to all of this, but nothing you wrote suggests that is true.

Alternative comments about dark imperium here.

I am reading the book at the moment and I must say that guiliman isn't coming across as Mary Sue at all, in fact he is coming across as a deeply flawed person who's personal screw ups are directly related to the imperium being in the current state it's in, his string of mistakes led to his death, which meant the imperium went down a much darker route than it would have had he lived, hell, some of the other primarchs would likely have stayed around had he lived, but his pride and rage stopped him doing the correct thing and retreating when ambushed by fulgrim, he knows this and is emotionally distraught over the fact.

None of that screams Mary Sue at all.

Yeah, those are the more interesting aspects of the story and the character.

I guess there's a clear line between Black Library fiction and the whatchamacallit books from GW with Fall of Cadia and such. It takes a novel to develop character and get beyond "and then the heroes defeated their foes and moved on to the next location, and after a hard but mostly meaningless battle moved on to the next location to fight another battle" type thing.

I was just watching the Justice League movie a couple of hours ago, and got the same feelings. It's the solo hero movies versus the buddy team-ups where they must put their differences aside to defeat a numerically superior but ultimately faceless enemy through the power of teamwork.

 Formosa wrote:
Alternative comments about dark imperium here.

I am reading the book at the moment and I must say that guiliman isn't coming across as Mary Sue at all, in fact he is coming across as a deeply flawed person who's personal screw ups are directly related to the imperium being in the current state it's in, his string of mistakes led to his death, which meant the imperium went down a much darker route than it would have had he lived, hell, some of the other primarchs would likely have stayed around had he lived, but his pride and rage stopped him doing the correct thing and retreating when ambushed by fulgrim, he knows this and is emotionally distraught over the fact.

None of that screams Mary Sue at all.

Gulliman has ALWAYS in the novels been one of the better depicted primarchs IMHO reading Gulliman (Sanguinis is often another good example too except with more internal angst) it's easy to see what the primarchs are supposed to be, and why they where held in such high esteem.

Is it all that illogical though? I can think of a few compelling arguments on choosing Guiliman over the Lion.

The most obvious is in-universe knowledge. We know where the Lion is, but would the Eldar? The Dark Ángels are highly insular and they don’t exactly broadcast that the Lion is “here and ready to go, once he sleeps off the hangover that is the HH”. Meanwhile Roboute? He has/had millions of pilgrims lining up to see him in stasis, so he literally has a “Primarch Right Here!” sign. All the other Primarchs’ locations are unknown or known only to a select few, while Guilimans location is common knowledge to the people in the 40k universe. With that in mind I don’t see it that shocking that the Eldar went to him.



The second/2.5 point is distrust and the Eldar’s goals. I don’t see it as the Eldar’s best interest to bring the Lion back, at least not right away. The Ultramarines have enough of a history of being willing to listen xenos (Tau come to mind, uneasy and tension filled but still) while the Dark Angels less so. Had the Eldar arrived claiming they wanted to see the Lion I don’t see it ending well, they have killed so called Allies for less knowledge of them (it would trigger their fallen knee-jerk reaction basically).

Beyond this are the Primarchs personalities, because if the Eldar can meta game to know where the Lion is I don’t see how they wouldn’t know the following. The Lion is secretive, reclusive, and suspicious. It’s not to say Guiliman isn’t a political animal and incapable of lying and deceiving, but as an outside xenos faction picking a Primarch to be leader I’d pick Guiliman because he is much more open and honest. Combine that with the Watchers in the Dark. What are their motivations? Can the Eldar trust them to side with them? What’re they telling the Lion if the Eldar did bring him back? The Dark Angels can barely be trusted by other imperial factions as to their true motivations, so why would the Eldar? The Eldar’s end goal is to survive as a species, regardless of the route they choose (somehow integrate or betray the Imperium). Having said that, would you king-make a person who would be suspicious of you, never tell you his plans outside of the essentials, and have an unknown xenos species whispering in their ear all the while? I wouldn’t.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
The writer of Dark Imperium used the 'the Primarch needs no protection' line from the World Eaters in reference to Angron. Well Girlyman sure as hell needed protection from Fulgrim and Angron come to think of it LOL

Rawbutt doesn't come close to approaching the level Mary Sue that existed during the Wardian Era. Case in point: Kaldor Draigo and the whole "AND THE GRATEST OF DEM ALL IS THE ULTRAMARINES"schtick.


At least he has the excuse that he is a Primarch.

Also, Guilliman is the only easily accessible primarch that would be able and willing to unite a breaking Imperium. I mean, during the Heresy, who else that stayed loyal showed any inkling of doing work in that role? I'm a bit out of date on the fluff, but it seems all the rest had their own foibles and issues that led them to being unfit to anything larger than their own Legion command, except maybe Dorn.

At least Guilliman returning has been foreshadowed since 2nd edition, other than Russ returning from the Warp for the Wolftime - and even then you think the various fluff for 13th Company/Wulfen forces would have had some foreshadowing, as theoretically they are remnants of the actual marines that followed him into the Warp, so should know 'something' about his status and/or return, unless they all took a wrong turn and lost him.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

Rawbutt doesn't come close to approaching the level Mary Sue that existed during the Wardian Era. Case in point: Kaldor Draigo and the whole "AND THE GRATEST OF DEM ALL IS THE ULTRAMARINES"schtick.

At least he has the excuse that he is a Primarch.

Guilliman is so important he warps the setting around him. He's brought back by xenos and is making massive changes to the Imperium but that's okay because the Emperor has outright backed him and made him acting-Emperor. Any interesting conflict about him returning has been shut down because the Emperor has said to follow him. It's so disappointing. The most anyone can do is secretly resist what he's trying to do. Not to mention the galaxy getting split in half, all this talk about how difficult it is to cross the Great Scar, and then he just does so on his big crusade at least twice and swings back to Ultramar in time to defend it. Draigo was a (admittedly poorly written) Sisyphean character whose actions bore little consequence. Guilliman is far more intrusive in the setting.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:Girlyman being the first to come back is just weak, its so predictable, Matt Ward is fapping right now. Leman Russ should have been the first during Warzone Fenris.

Predictable? At least it's not straight out of the blue. It's been hinted as a possibility for decades, for feth's sake - him, Russ and Lion have been the best contenders for coming back - you're just salty they chose the one you don't personally like, or is "cool" to hate, because "Ward, amirite!", despite 5th edition being 10 years ago.

Russ coming back would have been more of a deus-ex (as I'll cite below), and his impact on the setting would be minimal. That could be a good thing, not shifting the status quo, but as 40k's going, Guilliman was the best to shift it. Actual political acumen - check. Previous vendettas and responsibilities to deal with - check. Internal struggle and conflict - check. He's a far better rounded character than Lion, and Russ is barely a character. He's more of a concept, a literal deus-ex. At least the Lion has some personality.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:And the Eldar coming to wake up Girlyman isn't an Ex Machina.

Except it's not.
The Eldar revived Guilliman with the recently-invented tech of Cawl, and did it because Chaos had so fundamentally changed the playing field, they needed a new way to boost the Imperim's strength. Guilliman was accessible readily, had prior experience in ruling the Imperium, and was the most likely to ally with the Eldar. A perfect fit.

Russ coming back would literally have been "he found his way out". No reason why, no explanation, just "he did, bc THE WARP".

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Also the book is making Girlyman seem like a boss, the daemon saying I am death and him saying 'I've killed everyone who claims to be death' he didn't act so tough against Fulgrim or after Angron battered him and he literally crawled away from him on his hands and knees.

Every Primarch has done that. Your point?

Guilliman is completely in character to say that too - have you read any of the 30k stuff with him in? Stoic, witty retorts are kind of his thing.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:His name is Girlyman, Girly by name Girly by nature.

And now you're going to use a bastardised version of his name to act as an insult?

Such class. Much educated. Very wow.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:The Lion, Russ, Corax or Dorn would have been far more interesting plot wise.

Howso?

Russ would go back to his hearth and kill more stuff. Very... interesting.
Corax would have no experience leading and probably hide in the shadows, killing a handful of powerful leaders occasionally.
Lion would pretty much become Horus 2.0 and try to lord it over the Imperium with no actual tact or ability. This would be interesting, but frankly a little dull and stagnant.
Dorn would make a beeline for Perturabo and probably fortify things until it reached the stratosphere. Not exactly interesting.

Guilliman has the ambition, acumen and personality to create waves in the Imperium.

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
1: Gulliman wasn't technicly dead. and his title was reinstated upon his return.
2: the Lion has shown neither the ability nor the inclination towards statesmanship. The Lion cannot bring about political reform in the IoM.
3: you mean something that allowed GW to bring in another faction to the storyline? I don't see that as a weakness I see it as a strength

1. For all intents and purposes the lore was he was dead.

Except for all the parts where GW said he wasn't, that he was rumoured to be healing, that he was saved at the last minute...

You know, just as dead as Russ, the Lion, Khan, Corax, and Vulkan. Are they all dead too then?

2. But really was a more logical choice for a story and could have been part of a good one too.

How was Lion more logical than Guilliman? They were both alive but absent, both military leaders (one strategically the other logistically), and had axes to grind. Only Guilliman's axe was one that HE forged, and was his character flaw. That's a far better story than "oh yeah, I have some renegades in my legion that haven't really done anything one the scale of the actual traitor legions, better go hunt them down".

3. It's bad because either Guilleman is an Eldar or sleeper or there was no reason for them to bring him back. The choice makes no sense except to push the Poster Chapter.

Or, it's because Guilliman was the best option they had as a figurehead for the Imperium?

Are you ignoring that maybe GW wanted the Imperium to have a figurehead a la Abaddon or Ghazkull who people could field in game, and wanted to bring back a Primarch? If that's your goal, why NOT Guilliman?

A better alternative that ties in with all the new factions would have been the Emperor commanding the Custodes to awaken the Lion, they and the SoS launch a crusade, Chaos intervenes with a Nurgle focus and then have them battling through. A much better story that has a logical Primarch, a reason for SoS and Custodes to be added to 40k instead of just GW wanting to sell novels and allows a decent chance for Nurgles new models to have the spotlight during release. With the bonus of other factions being able to be included. For example the Orks are drawn to the fight and seeing the Lion is helpful the Ynnari take them on as a distraction.

Why is the Lion most logical? You're just throwing the word around without explaining it. Why is the Lion more logical than Guilliman?

How is yours any different from the current setpiece, except it's Lion, not RG?

How do the Custodes know about the Lion? Why do the DA let them in? After all, that's where they keep the Fallen prisoners.
The Custodes and SoS still enter the same in both ways - it's just someone else telling them to get off their behinds. No difference there.
Nurgle models take spotlight either way. No difference.
Orks are included in just the same way - there's no reason why you can fluff your Orks to be doing just that. No difference.

The Ynnari did that in the current canon, except actually had a purpose in this narrative - in yours, they're just tacked on. In yours, it's "The IoM sorted their problems out for some reason. We'll tag along". Currently, it's more like "Chaos got stronger. We'll actively improve the IoM by helping them get a leader back, and in doing so, actively save ourselves". From a story perspective, the current version is more interesting, purely because the Eldar actually affect the plot, you can't just pretend they did nothing like in yours.

Because the Lion or Russ cannot be good statesmen is a great reason to have them come back first. It would be far more interesting than Girlyman coming back and just being a little Emperor. There would be far more dynamic story telling with the others. I'm not salty, I don't collect loyalists. All Primarchs coming back is an ex-machina.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Because the Lion or Russ cannot be good statesmen is a great reason to have them come back first. It would be far more interesting than Girlyman coming back and just being a little Emperor. There would be far more dynamic story telling with the others.

Would there? Russ wouldn't even attempt anything other than beating the tar out of the nearest threat. How does that add anything to the story?

Lion, now that's a good chance for something. He is certainly one of my top picks, alongside for Guilliman. Realistically, I don't think I'd had a Primarch return myself, but considering GW wants that, that's a moot point. Out of anything that could come back, Guilliman and Lion are the best picks for their nature to do affect the plot more than "I beat up this guy". Lion can stir up the IoM, Guilliman can unite it. Considering GW clearly wants to unite the IoM (for better or worse), Guilliman is the best pick.

Guilliman certainly doesn't lack for character himself. Idealistically driven, his ideas taken too far, his position tarnished by unworthy rulers - that's a lot for him to take in. Lion has had none of that, being knocked out of the Heresy since Caliban blew up. Guilliman has a position that he's fallen from, a redemption/reclamation arc for him. Lion would have no emotional connection beyond his own desire.

Because Russ would be forced to be a statesmen and that would be interesting, seeing him struggle with that, same with the lion, Girlyman is made for it, it isn't an interesting dynamic. He's doing what he always did, its predictable. Its contrived, Girlyman was the first because the first will have the most authority, they've set it up for Girlyman to be a Mary Sue.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Because Russ would be forced to be a statesmen and that would be interesting, seeing him struggle with that, same with the lion, Girlyman is made for it, it isn't an interesting dynamic. He's doing what he always did, its predictable.

Would he be forced? Vulkan wasn't. He just went ahead, fought the Beast, and went MIA. I can see most Primarchs doing exactly the same - the only few I actually see taking up the mantle of the Emperor's Regent would be Guilliman, Lion, Dorn (if alive) and Sanguinius (if he wasn't crystallized on Horus' flagship). The rest I don't see leading the Imperium - they'd abdicate responsibility or deal with their own affairs. Russ would care more for Fenris and Magnus than the IoM, unlike the above.

Guilliman's works because he's responsible for many issues the IoM faces. He's forced to go back and amend his own mistakes, compromise on his own beliefs and morals - aka, character development.

I'm not saying the Lion's doesn't work, but in terms of sheer story potential, Guilliman has far more to work with. He wouldn't have been a bad choice, but not as good as Guilliman, IMO.

Russ I really don't support in this. I don't mind him coming back, but not as a leader figure - that's just not him. If he was second or third to come back, that's a different matter, but I'm glad he didn't come first.

He'd be forced because any of the Primarchs would be. Do you think they'll come back and say 'I don't care about the Imperium so I'll just go play soldier' I don't think so. Most of the Primarchs have had to accept their position because there were those better suited for different situations. Remember that all apart from Angron, became leaders in their homeworlds and took over from autocratic regimes. Russ may not be as good at it as Girlyman but he's better at it than any human.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
He'd be forced because any of the Primarchs would be. Do you think they'll come back and say 'I don't care about the Imperium so I'll just go play soldier' I don't think so. Most of the Primarchs have had to accept their position because there were those better suited for different situations. Remember that all apart from Angron, became leaders in their homeworlds and took over from autocratic regimes. Russ may not be as good at it as Girlyman but he's better at it than any human.

Again, so what about what happened to Vulkan?

He didn't even reveal himself to his own Chapter - he just went ahead and "played soldier" until he vanished.

What about Russ makes him a better leader than the High Lords? He's a better warleader, sure, but as a politician, he's not remarkable. Russ became the leader of a planet that HAD no real politics. It was "might made right" on Fenris - not politics.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
He'd be forced because any of the Primarchs would be. Do you think they'll come back and say 'I don't care about the Imperium so I'll just go play soldier' I don't think so. Most of the Primarchs have had to accept their position because there were those better suited for different situations. Remember that all apart from Angron, became leaders in their homeworlds and took over from autocratic regimes. Russ may not be as good at it as Girlyman but he's better at it than any human.

Again, so what about what happened to Vulkan?

He didn't even reveal himself to his own Chapter - he just went ahead and "played soldier" until he vanished.

What about Russ makes him a better leader than the High Lords? He's a better warleader, sure, but as a politician, he's not remarkable.

Turn that into a story element. Russ isn't going to fuss around politicking he's going to tell people what to do and they'll do it because Russ can literally throw them through a wall. The High Lords probably wouldn't like that and there's a story.

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
He'd be forced because any of the Primarchs would be. Do you think they'll come back and say 'I don't care about the Imperium so I'll just go play soldier' I don't think so. Most of the Primarchs have had to accept their position because there were those better suited for different situations. Remember that all apart from Angron, became leaders in their homeworlds and took over from autocratic regimes. Russ may not be as good at it as Girlyman but he's better at it than any human.

Again, so what about what happened to Vulkan?

He didn't even reveal himself to his own Chapter - he just went ahead and "played soldier" until he vanished.

What about Russ makes him a better leader than the High Lords? He's a better warleader, sure, but as a politician, he's not remarkable.

Turn that into a story element. Russ isn't going to fuss around politicking he's going to tell people what to do and they'll do it because Russ can literally throw them through a wall. The High Lords probably wouldn't like that and there's a story.

What makes that story element better than character development for Guilliman, if Russ isn't actually going to develop as a character?

Because they are bloody Primarchs, they are better than men at 'everything'. And Russ' barbarianism is just an illusion, why do you think Russ made his prospected captains become wolfblades, learning politics in Terra? You don't know what Vulkan is up to and what he is doing.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
He'd be forced because any of the Primarchs would be. Do you think they'll come back and say 'I don't care about the Imperium so I'll just go play soldier' I don't think so. Most of the Primarchs have had to accept their position because there were those better suited for different situations. Remember that all apart from Angron, became leaders in their homeworlds and took over from autocratic regimes. Russ may not be as good at it as Girlyman but he's better at it than any human.

Again, so what about what happened to Vulkan?

He didn't even reveal himself to his own Chapter - he just went ahead and "played soldier" until he vanished.

What about Russ makes him a better leader than the High Lords? He's a better warleader, sure, but as a politician, he's not remarkable.

Turn that into a story element. Russ isn't going to fuss around politicking he's going to tell people what to do and they'll do it because Russ can literally throw them through a wall. The High Lords probably wouldn't like that and there's a story.

What makes that story element better than character development for Guilliman, if Russ isn't actually going to develop as a character?

I didn't say that was a better story than Guilliman I said it was an idea for Russ interacting with the High Lords. You can pretty easily have Russ develop when he has to interact with them.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:Because they are bloody Primarchs, they are better than men at 'everything'. And Russ' barbarianism is just an illusion, why do you think Russ made his prospected captains become wolfblades, learning politics in Terra? You don't know what Vulkan is up to and what he is doing.

We know that Vulkan was rediscovered during the War of the Beast, and was never seen or heard of again. We don't know what he's doing, but we know what he ISN'T doing - leading the Imperium.

Russ's barbarism being an "illusion" is personally a terrible part of his characterisation. It's that which makes him, in my personal opinion, more egregious than Guilliman. Simultaneously, he is savage and ruthless, a wild hunter and predator, but also serene and making his enemies THINK he's just a wild animal, but also he embraces those natures when not on the battlefield, and ugh. It's a mess of character design, trying to make him too many stereotypes at once.
Russ sent his wolfblades to Terra to protect House Belisarius - not for politics. He did so so that he'd always have Navigators from a very well-off house, and they get protection and a small military force in the form of Space Wolves assigned to them.

They're not there to learn politics. They're there to act as a bodyguard.

If Primarchs were better than men at everything, no matter what Primarch, then why is Lord Solar Macharius so renowned? Sebastian Thor? Not to mention that Russ would be very quickly bogged down by the Administratum machine without the organisational skills of someone more used to it (aka, High Lords and Guilliman).

pm713 wrote:I didn't say that was a better story than Guilliman I said it was an idea for Russ interacting with the High Lords. You can pretty easily have Russ develop when he has to interact with them.

Fair enough - again, I feel that Russ' story should be more of a vengeance arc than Guilliman's redemption/reclamation arc, personally.

Wolfblades are sent to Terra as a way to both get rid of weird Space Wolves and to help them learn politics. At least by 40k they are.

People like Macharius are renowned because they were very good at their job.

I'd like a vengeance arc quite a lot actually.

No all prospected captains went to Terra, to protect the house of Belisarius and to learn politics if you read the book and not simply looked up lexicanum, you'd understand that there were constant politicking and wars between the navigator houses. Learning the politics of Terra was the most important point in that book. Most wolfblades were sent as punishment or because their geneseed didn't take properly or they were outcasts etc. but nearly all captains have been part of the Wolfblade That you don't know what Vulken is doing refutes your point.

pm713 wrote:Wolfblades are sent to Terra as a way to both get rid of weird Space Wolves and to help them learn politics. At least by 40k they are.

Where is it they learn politics? Can I have a quote, or reference, please?

People like Macharius are renowned because they were very good at their job.

Better than many Primarchs, in fact. Hence my point - Primarchs can be damn good, usually are, but not all Primarchs are equal, and many humans CAN outmatch them in certain things (strategy, diplomacy, arcana).

I'd like a vengeance arc quite a lot actually.

That's fair enough - I personally wouldn't want that, at least, not right now, purely because of the saturation of vengeance plotlines in 40k. Actual character development a la Guilliman is rare by comparison.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:No all prospected captains went to Terra, to protect the house of Belisarius and to learn politics if you read the book and not simply looked up lexicanum, you'd understand that there were constant politicking and wars between the navigator houses. Most wolfblades were sent as punishment or because their geneseed didn't take properly or they were outcasts etc. but nearly all captains have been part of the Wolfblade

Again, I'll ask above - where does it tell you that Space Wolves sent as part of the Wolfblade become good politicians? Quote or reference, please.
All I see is that they're there to act as an honour guard for the Navigators. Not to learn politics. As an honour guard, they can palm off their unrulier members there.

Also, quote on "nearly all Captains" - Wolf Priest Ranek says that "many" great Space Wolf leaders were once Wolfblades, but that would imply only a minority of Captains/Wolf Lords. So, source on yours, please?

Again, I don't doubt that SOME Space Wolves get a better grasp of politics. It's confirmed by Ranek. However, I do disagree that it's the reason why Russ sent men to them. If that were so, then we'd see far more volunteers. When there's only been one volunteer (Tobin), it's far less likely that it's the case.
Russ created it as a bodyguard to ensure reinforcement. It was seen as a dud post, but offered the potential advantage for members to become more versed in politics. Not all, and certainly not the intended function, however.

Besides, I'm not talking about Space Wolves. I'm talking about Russ. Just because he's their Primarch, that doesn't make him better in every aspect than his sons. Politics is something we don't see Russ demonstrate a good awareness or ability in.

That you don't know what Vulken is doing refutes your point.

Sorry, what?
How does that make any sense?

We KNOW Vulkan isn't leading the Imperium. That;s because Guilliman is. We know Vulkan never led the Imperium, ever when he was the only returned Primarch. Hell, he deferred authority to an Imperial Fist CAPTAIN. It's absolutely likely that certain Primarchs wouldn't take up the leadership mantle, and Russ doesn't seem like he'd WANT to rule any more than his own Chapter.

Wolfblade p43 the full quote is 'and Ragnar, one more thing...' 'Many Great Space Wolf leaders have been wolfblades. It has us no harm to have warriors who know how the Imperium works and who have personal contacts with its hierarchy' Ranek to Ragnarr. That you asked that question just shows that you didn't read the book.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Wolfblade p43 the full quote is 'and Ragnar, one more thing...' 'Many Great Space Wolf leaders have been wolfblades. It has us no harm to have warriors who know how the Imperium works and who have personal contacts with its hierarchy' Ranek to Ragnarr. That you asked that question just shows that you didn't read the book.

Yes, I quoted that to you. Now, allow me to pick out what your quote says:
"Many Great Space Wolf leaders"

Emphasis mine.

Many. Not all, not even anywhere CLOSE to what you claimed about "but nearly all captains have been part of the Wolfblade". So, either you're missing something in that quote (which I already mentioned in that exact same question, funnily enough), or you're wrong about all captains being politicians.

And again - I'm not talking about politician Wolf Lords. I'm talking about Russ, and how A, the Wolfblade wasn't created for the purpose of political training (it was a positive side effect for SOME Space Wolves) and B, Russ himself wasn't a consummate politician.

Can you prove otherwise?