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I only get 6 CPs per game and usually need them for saves or 1 of 2 strategies (either counter charge or the one that lets killed character fight another round before removal).

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I only get 6 CPs per game and usually need them for saves or 1 of 2 strategies (either counter charge or the one that lets killed character fight another round before removal).

If the FR are the key component to his list I think saving one for such an occasion seems prudent.

Fire Raptor (358) vs Storm Talon (171) expected result 8.67 wounds
Twin Avenger Cannon, 3.33 wounds (10*(3/6)*(3/6)*(4/6)*2)
2 Quad Heavy Bolters, 2.00 wounds (24*(3/6)*(2/6)*(3/6))
2 Twin Hellstrikes, 3.33 wounds (4*(3/6)*(4/6)*(5/6)*3)

Now sure if you factor in bobby G it'll kill the storm talon. but then you're looking at about 4 times the cost of the storm talon.

Rough maths says an Anvilis Autocannon Deredeo Dreadnaught should put 7-8 woulds on a raptor per turn.
Your biggest issue will be GK codex can't make a competitive mono list.

Bobby G is a victim of GW's reroll your rerolls buff mentality in codex marines, without him the good units are playable, half the army is meh at best, with him the damage output rockets but you have to cram everything into castles and chase a tabling, over playing the mission.

It's sort of weird to be so concerned with finding one single unit that can bring down a Fire Raptor in one turn. Like, why is that so much better than bringing a number of cheaper units that can together bring it down in one turn? And, yeah, you should generally never expect to find something that can kill its points in a single turn outside of some fragile CC units -- something that can consistently do this from far away is probably overpowered.

But, yes, GKs aren't very good and Guilliman and Fire Raptors are excellent. There's just not much of a mono-GK answer to this. They have poor anti-tank in general and they're very vulnerable to heavy bolters. This is the sort of thing that pushes people towards lists involving lots of Guardsmen on the table and everything else deep-striking.

I was just looking for a kill ratio against the Raptor. I mean if I have to use 1000 points to destroy a 250 unit then I'm not getting a very good return on my investment. On the other hand if I can spend 1000 points and destroy say 750 points in one turn then I'm probably doing pretty well.

This isn't just a GK problem (as far as I'm concerned). I don't see too many answers for Imperium players in general. Now, obviously, I can luck out and bring them down with hot dice but you can't count on that and average damage is what you have to go by.

As far as I can tell those 3 models are very cost efficient.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I was just looking for a kill ratio against the Raptor. I mean if I have to use 1000 points to destroy a 250 unit then I'm not getting a very good return on my investment. On the other hand if I can spend 1000 points and destroy say 750 points in one turn then I'm probably doing pretty well.

I bolded the problematic part. You shouldn't expect to be able to kill things in 1 turn with the sort of efficiency you're after here. In fact, the way some combos of units can do that is one of the things that makes those combos broken. It's much more reasonable to expect to be able to take out a key unit in one turn using a much larger chunk of your army. At that point you're basically deciding how much of a threat a unit is versus the wisdom of expending a certain amount of resources in your own army to eliminate it.

First things first, the Fire Raptor is more like 400pts, not 250.

Secondly, like Slipspace said, you shouldn't be able to simply have a counter unit that can drop a 400pt unit in one round of shooting; that doesn't make for a fun game, that makes for a game where whoever loses the roll off for first turn is not going to have a fun game. That's actually why I've stopped fielding big models because it lowers all enthusiasm I have for the game if I don't actually get chance to use my centerpiece model before it is blown off the board - the joys of having a best friend that plays an Imperial Guard Super Heavy party army.

A Blood Angels Captain will make quick work of a Fire Raptor. This is very much a GK problem, not an Imperium one.

He has to get within strike distance to harm it. So unless he can get across the board on the first turn he's probably not going to get the chance to get the job done.

Can't he use the BA stratagem thingamajig and just hit it from DS?

 meleti wrote:
A Blood Angels Captain will make quick work of a Fire Raptor. This is very much a GK problem, not an Imperium one.

I keep hearing that Blood Angel Captains are great and can kill anything but I don't know why.

A Stormfang or Stormwolf should be able to get one below half wounds in a round. (Mathhammer looks like 10+)

But it will be an expensive option, I *think* the skyhammers work out about as effective as the twin multi-meltas for notable fewer points.

Slipspace wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I was just looking for a kill ratio against the Raptor. I mean if I have to use 1000 points to destroy a 250 unit then I'm not getting a very good return on my investment. On the other hand if I can spend 1000 points and destroy say 750 points in one turn then I'm probably doing pretty well.

I bolded the problematic part. You shouldn't expect to be able to kill things in 1 turn with the sort of efficiency you're after here. In fact, the way some combos of units can do that is one of the things that makes those combos broken. It's much more reasonable to expect to be able to take out a key unit in one turn using a much larger chunk of your army. At that point you're basically deciding how much of a threat a unit is versus the wisdom of expending a certain amount of resources in your own army to eliminate it.

The problem is a Fire Raptor CAN fight with that kind of efficiency, especially against Grey Knights. So 'ifs and buts' and all that. The Fire Raptor is an incredibly efficient killing machine.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 meleti wrote:
A Blood Angels Captain will make quick work of a Fire Raptor. This is very much a GK problem, not an Imperium one.

I keep hearing that Blood Angel Captains are great and can kill anything but I don't know why.

The +1 to wound and no overwatch relic.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 meleti wrote:
A Blood Angels Captain will make quick work of a Fire Raptor. This is very much a GK problem, not an Imperium one.

I keep hearing that Blood Angel Captains are great and can kill anything but I don't know why.

The +1 to wound and no overwatch relic.

More than that even.

+1 to Wound
+1A (Death Visions of Sanguinus)
4 damage Thunder Hammer (Warlord trait)
Quickening Psychic Power +1D3 attacks)
+1D3 attacks Stratagem
Fight Twice Stratagem

Congrats, your Captain is now a blender. If your opponent brought a big centerpiece model, proceed to wreck it.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 meleti wrote:
A Blood Angels Captain will make quick work of a Fire Raptor. This is very much a GK problem, not an Imperium one.

I keep hearing that Blood Angel Captains are great and can kill anything but I don't know why.

3d6 charge from deep strike with ignore overwatch and reroll charge (from his relic) and 6 attacks? He will easily drop the raptor to his bottom profle and might kill him.

Okay we've found 2 models that can match a Fire Raptor anyone else have any other ideas.

Fire Raptors are very durable. Are they screened? If they aren't screened, sanguinary guard could do real damage to it. They can pack a power fist at no additional cost, and with descent of angels should reliably charge it.

I'm not sure how the points work out but you could get 30x power fist attacks on that bad boy with rerolls. That should annihilate a fire raptor.

3x las cannon preds supported by lt and captain. (avg 15 wounds) Add the strat and they nearly kill 2.

4x dark angel overcharged plasma interceptors with WftDA w/ lt and captian

10x overcharged hellblasters in rf range w/ lt and captian

two units of grav-cannon devs w/ lt and captian + cherub

3 units of overcharged rapid fire range plasma command scions w/ orders

There are tons of ways of killing them for close to what they cost. There's just not a lot of ways for anti-armor lacking GK to do it...

bananathug wrote:
3x las cannon preds supported by lt and captain. (avg 15 wounds) Add the strat and they nearly kill 2.

4x dark angel overcharged plasma interceptors with WftDA w/ lt and captian

10x overcharged hellblasters in rf range w/ lt and captian

two units of grav-cannon devs w/ lt and captian + cherub

3 units of overcharged rapid fire range plasma command scions w/ orders

There are tons of ways of killing them for close to what they cost. There's just not a lot of ways for anti-armor lacking GK to do it...

The plasma units are going to kill themselves with the -1 to hit. die on 1's and 2's.

Who cares if they die if they've already got their points back and removed a big chunk of the enemies fire-power? This is also why I really need to find a way to quickly move an ancient into plasma ceptor support range.

Although support the hellblasters with an ancient and those dying guys shoot again half the time. 20 hellblaster shots suicides about 6 dudes giving you 6 more plasma shots or 3 more models worth of shooting or more than you paid for that ancient!

Besides, if they don't kill themselves killing the first fire-raptor the second fire-raptor is going to mop up whatever is left...

Knight Commander Pask with Battlecannon, Lascannon, Hunter Killer Missile and two Plasma Cannons will do an average of about 11 damage in one turn to it, taking in to account the -1 to hit and the Cadian Doctrine or Ordering himself for rerolling 1 to hit. For 255pts

I know little to nothing about Grey Knights so this might be off, but can't Grey Knights take Stormhawks now? Two Stormhawks cost less than 400 points and can lay on some pretty serious hurt. They hit Fire Raptors on a 4+ or 3+, depending on the weapon, and they roll so many dice that giving them access to rerolls can be very effective.

Yes, GK can take Stormhawks. I ran the math equipping it with the icarus systems (they give a +1H) and it still came out badly. It comes out to a little less than 2.5 Wounds per model. So 2 hawks will do about 5 wounds (out of 16) to a FireRaptor. Meanwhile a Raptor will do about 8.5 wounds (out of 10) to the Hawks.

The lastalon is what you'd want against a heavy flyer, though. Rerolling 1s that should average about 2.5 wounds per Stormhawk, plus the other weapon systems. And there's the potential of a lucky high roll.

Autocannon and their ilk are awful against heavy targets.

I've been toying with getting a fireraptor over a stormraven. not because it's more powerful but due to it looking completely badass.

I haven't faced one yet so I'm kinda wanting to.

On topic, maybe a whirlwind or other anti air vehicle. Or a xyphon?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Maybe my math is off but the point remains that the shadow sword is about the only Imperial unit/model that can bring down a raptor in one turn (or even do 8 wounds) without having to engage in CQC.

volcano cannon standing still 4.5 shots hitting on 5 wounding on 2 no save ave dam per shot 7 = 4.5*.32*.84*7=8.47 wounds

Shadow Sword base 390+ weapons
Fire Raptor base 250 + weapons

I think it's pretty reasonable that you need to spend double the cost of something to take it down in one turn - especially if it's not a direct counter. That doesn't preclude the fire raptor (or shadowsword) going up in points.

You haven't been keeping up with Dakka. Your army's units should be able to kill equal points of the enemy unit in one turn or the enemy unit is OP. On the other hand, if an enemy unit can kill half it's point of your stuff in one turn then it's OP. (see conscripts and shadowswords)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
You'd need considerably more than the Raptor's points to bring it down

There shouldn't be anything that's reliably killing it's own points in one turn.

If that was the benchmark for a unit being good then an army of all "good" units should delete the entire enemy army on T1. Awesome.

How desperate are you on this? Like there are no actual answers in the GK codex beyond getting extremely lucky.

Best bet is literally taking your army throwing it away for ever dreaming of playing something you like, then actually write an email to GW explaining your issue with the army being an unwieldy piece of crap just like a powerfist compared to a thunderhammer. Finally realize why people don't like Forgeworld, because that studio can't write rules.

Is the fireraptor half as good/OP without Bobby G though?
Is it more that Forgeworld actually balance their units without needing the bobby G crutch to be playable.

I realy wish Bobby G had been written better I love the model, love the charictor but he plays powerfully but terribly.
A better buff would have been allowing him to change the tactical disipline rule to twice per phase.