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nekooni wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
It’s yet another misapplication of Sequencing to generate a stupid effect. It’s pretty obvious the Spores are intended to only hit a unit within 3” and if no enemy are left wishing 3” after resolving a few splosions any remaining exploding Spores just explode and do nowt... but this is the internet where common sense is dead, so it doesn’t stop someone trying to manipulate RAW to claim a weapon has infinite range. Not sure why it’s suddenly been brought up again as new info, given people have already tilted at this windmill in other threads.


I have to say though: I'd rather have an occasional mine explode 4 or 5 inches into the next unit instead of frequently having them go off but do nothing. Because if you limit it to 3 inches, the defender will just pull from the front and after 1 or two explosions there's no longer a unit within 3.


Either is better than claiming they have infinite range “because RAW”.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
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 JohnnyHell wrote:
It’s yet another misapplication of Sequencing to generate a stupid effect. It’s pretty obvious the Spores are intended to only hit a unit within 3” and if no enemy are left wishing 3” after resolving a few splosions any remaining exploding Spores just explode and do nowt... but this is the internet where common sense is dead, so it doesn’t stop someone trying to manipulate RAW to claim a weapon has infinite range. Not sure why it’s suddenly been brought up again as new info, given people have already tilted at this windmill in other threads.
It's pretty "obvious" my Conscripts have 20 wounds each. Prove me wrong.

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You cannot check the range and then not also resolve the spore mine explosion.

Each "Floating Death" rule should be resolved in its sequence.

I would say this is similar to firing overwatch, and then having the targeted unit be out of range for some weapons in a squad after the first squad as shot. You're declaring the unit will fire overwatch, but some models may not be eligible to shoot because the range has changed after the first overwatch unit has shot.

Yes the spore mine was initially within 3", but when you went to evaluate its Floating Death after resolving the first, it was no longer in range, and therefore cannot legally be activated.

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 Marmatag wrote:
You cannot check the range and then not also resolve the spore mine explosion.

Each "Floating Death" rule should be resolved in its sequence.

I would say this is similar to firing overwatch, and then having the targeted unit be out of range for some weapons in a squad after the first squad as shot. You're declaring the unit will fire overwatch, but some models may not be eligible to shoot because the range has changed after the first overwatch unit has shot.

Yes the spore mine was initially within 3", but when you went to evaluate its Floating Death after resolving the first, it was no longer in range, and therefore cannot legally be activated.
Except you don't check range when it resolves, you check range at the end of the charge phase.

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 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
You cannot check the range and then not also resolve the spore mine explosion.

Each "Floating Death" rule should be resolved in its sequence.

I would say this is similar to firing overwatch, and then having the targeted unit be out of range for some weapons in a squad after the first squad as shot. You're declaring the unit will fire overwatch, but some models may not be eligible to shoot because the range has changed after the first overwatch unit has shot.

Yes the spore mine was initially within 3", but when you went to evaluate its Floating Death after resolving the first, it was no longer in range, and therefore cannot legally be activated.
Except you don't check range when it resolves, you check range at the end of the charge phase.
Which is when it resolves

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
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Marm, BCB is actually correct here.

At the end of the charge phase (when all charge moves are finished) any spore mine that is within 3" of an enemy unit pops, simultaneously (not one at a time).


You then have to resolve their damage one at a time since there is no other way to do it.


The only question here is whether they can effect units farther away than 3".


As I said, I believe the "them" is reffering to the unit that cause the spore mines to explode, but others are saying that its mearly the closest unit to the mines.

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 BaconCatBug wrote:
Consider the following scenario:

I have 3 spore mines, A B and C, located 3.1" away from Primaris Intercessor Adam and 6000" away from Primaris Intercessor Bartholomew, these are the only models on the board.

I charge the Primaris Intercessor with all 3 mines, surviving overwatch, and rolling a 3+ for each mine. The mines then go within 1" of Primaris Intercessor Adam.

The "Floating Death" rule now kicks in. Quoted for the purposes of rules discussion:
Page 99 Codex: Tyranids wrote:Floating Death: A Spore Mine explodes if it is within 3" of any enemy units at the end of any Charge phase. Each time a Spore Mine explodes, roll a D6; on a 1 it fails to inflict any harm, on a 2-5 it inflicts 1 mortal wound on the nearest enemy unit, and on a 6 it inflicts D3 mortal wounds on that unit. The Spore Mine is then destroyed.
The key issue here is they they trigger "if it is within 3" of any unit" vs causing the wound "on the nearest enemy unit". Those are not necessarily the same thing. Since all three trigger simultaneously, the sequencing rules tell us to resolve them one at a time.

I resolve Spore Mine A, and it causes a Mortal Wound to Adam. I resolve Spore Mine B, and it causes a Mortal Wound to Adam, slaying him.

Spore Mine C now has a rule saying it has exploded, since it was within 3" of a model at the end of the charge phase. It now resolves, rolling a 6, then a 3 on the D3, causing a Mortal Wound "on the nearest enemy unit". Since Adam is dead, the Nearest Enemy Unit is now Bartholomew, even though he's 600" away. Thus the Spore Mine should now cause 3 Mortal Wounds to Bartholomew, despite him being 6000" away.

Am I right in thinking this or have I missed something? I am pretty sure the rule is supposed to cause the wound to the unit that "triggered it" but I feel that the rule doesn't do this.


Why should this version of the Tau Codex be any different than previous ones where the Spore mines have infinite range.

At least you have Primaris Intercessor Bartholomew there to catch the wounds. If he wasn't there then the closest enemy unit on closest 40k gaming table would find itself suprised to be catching the wounds from the spore mines. Of course, if the closest 40k gaming table is less than 6000" away Bart gets to watch the Spore Mines fireworks catch someone in a different game anyway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/02 19:15:08


 
   
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Now the real question is: what is an enemy unit?

If it's just "any unit that's not friendly" then by RAW you have to start chaining explosions onto the game table next to you at a tournament.

"Sorry, buddy, but I had 12 Spore Mines go off and the first 3 tabled my opponent. Looks like we've got 9 spore mines to resolve, and your unit is closest..."

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Stux wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Read the sequencing rules. Each spore mine is attempting to resolve simultaneously, but the sequencing rules tell you to resolve them one at a time. The mine has already "gone off" despite it being resolved after the other 2, so it doesn't matter there aren't any models left when it resolves because there WERE models at the end of the charge phase.


Then comes question is damage resolved simultaneously like say when unit shoots at which point your idea doesn't work


That's not how you resolve damage when a unit shoots no, you allocate wounds one at a time.

The base rule is to do each weapon one by one all the way from hit roll to damage even. There are of course fast rolling rules that allow you to do everything up to wound allocation simultaneously, but ONLY if doing so has no effect on the game compared to rolling one by one.

Even if you could apply fast rolling to this situation (which you can't as it's not a shooting attack and the models are separate units), this would be a situation where fast rolling changed the effect and so you wouldn't be able to use it and would have to resolve the entire ability one at a time.


But what is in range is considered before damage is resolved. Thus you can't cause first casualties into closest and remove rest from range. Same logic could be used here. What is closest unit is measured when trigger is checked. Casualty removal would then not alter that.

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 Eihnlazer wrote:
Marm, BCB is actually correct here.

At the end of the charge phase (when all charge moves are finished) any spore mine that is within 3" of an enemy unit pops, simultaneously (not one at a time).


You then have to resolve their damage one at a time since there is no other way to do it.


The only question here is whether they can effect units farther away than 3".


As I said, I believe the "them" is reffering to the unit that cause the spore mines to explode, but others are saying that its mearly the closest unit to the mines.


No it's not correct - You can't active these simultaneously. There is nothing in the rules that says you can.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
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 Marmatag wrote:
No it's not correct - You can't active these simultaneously. There is nothing in the rules that says you can.
Page 178, Sequencing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/02 20:20:47


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East Bay, Ca, US

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
No it's not correct - You can't active these simultaneously. There is nothing in the rules that says you can.
Page 178, Sequencing.


Right. Meaning they resolve in a sequence, as in, not simultaneously. After the first couple spore mines explode the conditions are no longer there to activate the third spore mine. Activating the spore mine for this ability requires it be within 3". You can't measure out of sequence, which is what you're doing when you say 1, 2, and 3 are all within 3". You're skipping ahead out of sequence. If 1 is in range, you can't check 2 and 3 yet, you need to resolve all floating death at once for #1.

 Galas wrote:
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Bharring wrote:
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So what your saying marm, is that its not the end of the assault phase for all 3 spore mines at the same time just because they each have a rule that states something happens at the end of the assault phase.................

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 BaconCatBug wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
It’s yet another misapplication of Sequencing to generate a stupid effect. It’s pretty obvious the Spores are intended to only hit a unit within 3” and if no enemy are left wishing 3” after resolving a few splosions any remaining exploding Spores just explode and do nowt... but this is the internet where common sense is dead, so it doesn’t stop someone trying to manipulate RAW to claim a weapon has infinite range. Not sure why it’s suddenly been brought up again as new info, given people have already tilted at this windmill in other threads.
It's pretty "obvious" my Conscripts have 20 wounds each. Prove me wrong.


Go look at the Conscripts Datasheet. Next fallacy? Amazed you’re back repeating that one. It’s old, tired, and has always been a fallacy.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
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East Bay, Ca, US

 Eihnlazer wrote:
So what your saying marm, is that its not the end of the assault phase for all 3 spore mines at the same time just because they each have a rule that states something happens at the end of the assault phase.................

(charge phase, right?)

End of phase is nebulous. It's not a "point in time," it's when the standard actions of that phase have concluded, but before the next phase begins. If you would like to activate floating death for your 3 spore mines, you have to do them in a sequence. This is the sequencing rule. It is entirely possible to change state at the end of the charge phase. For instance, if a Custodes player pays 2cp to charge into spore mines at the end of the phase, suddenly the ability could work, whereas it couldn't before. So there are two distinct points in time at the end of phase: Where floating death is legal, and where it is not.

You can't say "i am beginning floating death sequencing for 3 spore mines. I will do the first half of the ability for each of them, then, go back and start assigning wounds in a sequence." You can't pick and choose which portion of the ability you sequence and which you don't.


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
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This isn't really an issue of sequencing.

Every spore mine that is within 3" of an enemy unit at the end of the charge phase WILL blow up. Done. It's happening. You don't need to check them one at a time. Just like you don't need to check each unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit during the fight phase. If, at the beginning of the fight phase they are within 1" then during the fight phase it WILL fight. Even if during the phase from combat and models diieing it ends up more than 1" away by the time it gets selected to fight. It was within 1" when the phase started so it HAS to pile in and try to fight at some point during the phase.

The only thing that gets sequenced is picking which spore mine blows up first, and then which is next, and next, etc etc...

Which means the spore mines end up with a potentially infinite range.

When the charge phase ends, every spore mine that is within 3" will blow up. Again, just like when the fight phase begins, every unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit will fight.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 00:55:03



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

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If you want to read it that way, yes the range is infinite. If you want your opponent to have any form of enjoyable experience, then spore mine explosions do not out-range artillery pieces, main battle tanks, or rail weaponry. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

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 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
If you want to read it that way, yes the range is infinite. If you want your opponent to have any form of enjoyable experience, then spore mine explosions do not out-range artillery pieces, main battle tanks, or rail weaponry. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.


It's unrealistic to assume that will ever happen.... ever.

When do you only have 2 units on the table, in opposite corners of the table, one gets surrounded by spore mines and dies before they all finish blowing up, so the other unit takes the hits?

It will NEVER happen.

If the spore mines kill all the units within 3" they will most likely be hitting a unit thats 4-6" away. Great. Super broken or something?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 01:20:14



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 Lance845 wrote:
This isn't really an issue of sequencing.

Every spore mine that is within 3" of an enemy unit at the end of the charge phase WILL blow up. Done. It's happening. You don't need to check them one at a time. Just like you don't need to check each unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit during the fight phase. If, at the beginning of the fight phase they are within 1" then during the fight phase it WILL fight. Even if during the phase from combat and models diieing it ends up more than 1" away by the time it gets selected to fight. It was within 1" when the phase started so it HAS to pile in and try to fight at some point during the phase.

The only thing that gets sequenced is picking which spore mine blows up first, and then which is next, and next, etc etc...

Which means the spore mines end up with a potentially infinite range.

When the charge phase ends, every spore mine that is within 3" will blow up. Again, just like when the fight phase begins, every unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit will fight.


Actually Lance, you are wrong about the fight phase. It only cares about the current state of play, and not what units were within 1" at the start of the phase. It's spelt out in the designers commentary.

Marmatag has it right. Checking distance is a part of the "floating death" rule. You don't have permission to resolve the first part of the rule for Instance A, B, and C, then continue the rest of it using those results. You must resolve an instance in it's entirety then go onto the next. Sequencing allows you to chose if you want to resolve it as A, B, C, or as C, B, A, or as any other order.
   
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 Lance845 wrote:
 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
If you want to read it that way, yes the range is infinite. If you want your opponent to have any form of enjoyable experience, then spore mine explosions do not out-range artillery pieces, main battle tanks, or rail weaponry. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.


It's unrealistic to assume that will ever happen.... ever.

When do you only have 2 units on the table, in opposite corners of the table, one gets surrounded by spore mines and dies before they all finish blowing up, so the other unit takes the hits?

It will NEVER happen.

If the spore mines kill all the units within 3" they will most likely be hitting a unit thats 4-6" away. Great. Super broken or something?
I had a game where a spore mine managed to hit a unit 10" away, so it's not as uncommon as you think, especially if I have massed biovores and the first two spore mines manage to rip off 6 models!

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 Crimson wrote:
Marmatag is correct.


I have to chime in here. I agree.

If the rule stated that they "immediately" exploded then yes OP would be right, much like how you can Auspex scan a unit coming out a drop pod. The fact they"immediately" disembark means the motion is all at once, not i. Drop pod ii. Auspex iii. Units disembark. It's i. Drop pod and units disembark ii. Auspex.

Same here the spores are a sequence at the end of the charge phase they don't all explode same time. It's one two three job. But that's where your skills as a player come in and try and choose the spores that get the most from.

Another comparison is fight phase. Deathwing Knights and Belial Charge Sanguinary Guard. I choose my knights to attack first. they wipe enough Guard say 5 models, and my opponent removes the ones next to belial and puts Belial more than 1" away from combat and thus Belial has no eligible targets. Yes his charge was successful he is there but the sequence of events now means he can't attack.

This is the way I view this anyway.

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 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Marmatag is correct.


I have to chime in here. I agree.

If the rule stated that they "immediately" exploded then yes OP would be right, much like how you can Auspex scan a unit coming out a drop pod. The fact they"immediately" disembark means the motion is all at once, not i. Drop pod ii. Auspex iii. Units disembark. It's i. Drop pod and units disembark ii. Auspex.

Same here the spores are a sequence at the end of the charge phase they don't all explode same time. It's one two three job. But that's where your skills as a player come in and try and choose the spores that get the most from.

Another comparison is fight phase. Deathwing Knights and Belial Charge Sanguinary Guard. I choose my knights to attack first. they wipe enough Guard say 5 models, and my opponent removes the ones next to belial and puts Belial more than 1" away from combat and thus Belial has no eligible targets. Yes his charge was successful he is there but the sequence of events now means he can't attack.

This is the way I view this anyway.


I agree with everything except your example with Belial is not quite right. Belial still gets to activate in the fight phase because he charged (activating will allow him to pile-in 3" before trying to fight). If he did not charge, then you would be correct. Or if the knight caused enough casualties where even a 3" pile-in would not put him within 3" to fight, but that's highly unlikely.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 13:09:46


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JakeSiren wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
This isn't really an issue of sequencing.

Every spore mine that is within 3" of an enemy unit at the end of the charge phase WILL blow up. Done. It's happening. You don't need to check them one at a time. Just like you don't need to check each unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit during the fight phase. If, at the beginning of the fight phase they are within 1" then during the fight phase it WILL fight. Even if during the phase from combat and models diieing it ends up more than 1" away by the time it gets selected to fight. It was within 1" when the phase started so it HAS to pile in and try to fight at some point during the phase.

The only thing that gets sequenced is picking which spore mine blows up first, and then which is next, and next, etc etc...

Which means the spore mines end up with a potentially infinite range.

When the charge phase ends, every spore mine that is within 3" will blow up. Again, just like when the fight phase begins, every unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit will fight.


Actually Lance, you are wrong about the fight phase. It only cares about the current state of play, and not what units were within 1" at the start of the phase. It's spelt out in the designers commentary.

Marmatag has it right. Checking distance is a part of the "floating death" rule. You don't have permission to resolve the first part of the rule for Instance A, B, and C, then continue the rest of it using those results. You must resolve an instance in it's entirety then go onto the next. Sequencing allows you to chose if you want to resolve it as A, B, C, or as C, B, A, or as any other order.


You actually have it wrong.. You are told that if they are within 3" of an enemy model at the end of the phase they go boom. When you reach the end of the phase, you have to check to see which are within 3" - your permission is Floating Death telling you to chack the distance at the end of the phase.. If there are more than one within 3", the ones within 3" at that time go boom, and you have to use sequencing to handle the damage. You don't have a choice on when you check the distance (it all happens at the end of the phase), and you have no choice but to use sequencing to resolve the damage from the ones that go boom...but the distance has to have been checked before using sequencing to know which ones are involved in sequencing.
   
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 doctortom wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
This isn't really an issue of sequencing.

Every spore mine that is within 3" of an enemy unit at the end of the charge phase WILL blow up. Done. It's happening. You don't need to check them one at a time. Just like you don't need to check each unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit during the fight phase. If, at the beginning of the fight phase they are within 1" then during the fight phase it WILL fight. Even if during the phase from combat and models diieing it ends up more than 1" away by the time it gets selected to fight. It was within 1" when the phase started so it HAS to pile in and try to fight at some point during the phase.

The only thing that gets sequenced is picking which spore mine blows up first, and then which is next, and next, etc etc...

Which means the spore mines end up with a potentially infinite range.

When the charge phase ends, every spore mine that is within 3" will blow up. Again, just like when the fight phase begins, every unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit will fight.


Actually Lance, you are wrong about the fight phase. It only cares about the current state of play, and not what units were within 1" at the start of the phase. It's spelt out in the designers commentary.

Marmatag has it right. Checking distance is a part of the "floating death" rule. You don't have permission to resolve the first part of the rule for Instance A, B, and C, then continue the rest of it using those results. You must resolve an instance in it's entirety then go onto the next. Sequencing allows you to chose if you want to resolve it as A, B, C, or as C, B, A, or as any other order.


You actually have it wrong.. You are told that if they are within 3" of an enemy model at the end of the phase they go boom. When you reach the end of the phase, you have to check to see which are within 3" - your permission is Floating Death telling you to chack the distance at the end of the phase.. If there are more than one within 3", the ones within 3" at that time go boom, and you have to use sequencing to handle the damage. You don't have a choice on when you check the distance (it all happens at the end of the phase), and you have no choice but to use sequencing to resolve the damage from the ones that go boom...but the distance has to have been checked before using sequencing to know which ones are involved in sequencing.


BUUT you can't even begin to check the distances before invoking sequencing. You have to check the distances simultaneously, which means you need to sequence the distance-checking, and since you have no way to resolve the rule only half-way, whichever distance you sequence to measure first also gets its damage resolved first, since you can't measure the distance, then pause the rule, then move onto the next distance-measure while the first iteration of the rule remains unresolved.

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
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 doctortom wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:

Marmatag has it right. Checking distance is a part of the "floating death" rule. You don't have permission to resolve the first part of the rule for Instance A, B, and C, then continue the rest of it using those results. You must resolve an instance in it's entirety then go onto the next. Sequencing allows you to chose if you want to resolve it as A, B, C, or as C, B, A, or as any other order.


You actually have it wrong.. You are told that if they are within 3" of an enemy model at the end of the phase they go boom.

Except we're not told that if "they" are within 3" of an enemy model, they go boom. Each model has an ability called Floating Death, which states: "A Spore Mine explodes if *it* is within 3" of any enemy units [...]" There's no mention of this being a unit ability, in other words - it applies to each individual model.

Each ability for each model is resolved separately. You don't measure the range for every ability simultaneously across your entire army and then resolve them all regardless; you choose an ability to resolve, and then you resolve it, and then you move on to the next model/unit.

Sequencing allows the current player to choose which abilities activate first if there's a conflict, but every unit/model ability is still resolved completely prior to beginning a different model/unit's ability.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 14:33:30


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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
This isn't really an issue of sequencing.

Every spore mine that is within 3" of an enemy unit at the end of the charge phase WILL blow up. Done. It's happening. You don't need to check them one at a time. Just like you don't need to check each unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit during the fight phase. If, at the beginning of the fight phase they are within 1" then during the fight phase it WILL fight. Even if during the phase from combat and models diieing it ends up more than 1" away by the time it gets selected to fight. It was within 1" when the phase started so it HAS to pile in and try to fight at some point during the phase.

The only thing that gets sequenced is picking which spore mine blows up first, and then which is next, and next, etc etc...

Which means the spore mines end up with a potentially infinite range.

When the charge phase ends, every spore mine that is within 3" will blow up. Again, just like when the fight phase begins, every unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit will fight.


Actually Lance, you are wrong about the fight phase. It only cares about the current state of play, and not what units were within 1" at the start of the phase. It's spelt out in the designers commentary.

Marmatag has it right. Checking distance is a part of the "floating death" rule. You don't have permission to resolve the first part of the rule for Instance A, B, and C, then continue the rest of it using those results. You must resolve an instance in it's entirety then go onto the next. Sequencing allows you to chose if you want to resolve it as A, B, C, or as C, B, A, or as any other order.


You actually have it wrong.. You are told that if they are within 3" of an enemy model at the end of the phase they go boom. When you reach the end of the phase, you have to check to see which are within 3" - your permission is Floating Death telling you to chack the distance at the end of the phase.. If there are more than one within 3", the ones within 3" at that time go boom, and you have to use sequencing to handle the damage. You don't have a choice on when you check the distance (it all happens at the end of the phase), and you have no choice but to use sequencing to resolve the damage from the ones that go boom...but the distance has to have been checked before using sequencing to know which ones are involved in sequencing.


BUUT you can't even begin to check the distances before invoking sequencing. You have to check the distances simultaneously, which means you need to sequence the distance-checking, and since you have no way to resolve the rule only half-way, whichever distance you sequence to measure first also gets its damage resolved first, since you can't measure the distance, then pause the rule, then move onto the next distance-measure while the first iteration of the rule remains unresolved.


You have it backwards - you can't even begin to invoke sequencing unless there is more than one thing to resolve at the same time. In order to know if there is more than one thing to resolve at the same time (end of the phase), you have to check distance to the enemy unit to know whether the spore mine goes boom. Unless you know that you have more than one thing happening, you don't know that sequencing is needed. That means distance checking is not sequenced, but has to occur before sequencing in order to know if it's going to be involved in the sequencing in the first place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Archebius wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:

Marmatag has it right. Checking distance is a part of the "floating death" rule. You don't have permission to resolve the first part of the rule for Instance A, B, and C, then continue the rest of it using those results. You must resolve an instance in it's entirety then go onto the next. Sequencing allows you to chose if you want to resolve it as A, B, C, or as C, B, A, or as any other order.


You actually have it wrong.. You are told that if they are within 3" of an enemy model at the end of the phase they go boom.

Except we're not told that if "they" are within 3" of an enemy model, they go boom. Each model has an ability called Floating Death, which states: "A Spore Mine explodes if *it* is within 3" of any enemy units [...]There's no mention of this being a unit ability, in other words - it applies to each individual model.



You left off an important part of the quote... "at the end of any Charge phase" Everything in range at the end of the charge phase - a point in time - is involved. This means you have to measure it to determine if it is involved or not. See my comments to Unit1126PLL. You have to measure distance before knowing who is going to be involved in the sequencing.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 16:00:53


 
   
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Falls Church, VA

 doctortom wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
This isn't really an issue of sequencing.

Every spore mine that is within 3" of an enemy unit at the end of the charge phase WILL blow up. Done. It's happening. You don't need to check them one at a time. Just like you don't need to check each unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit during the fight phase. If, at the beginning of the fight phase they are within 1" then during the fight phase it WILL fight. Even if during the phase from combat and models diieing it ends up more than 1" away by the time it gets selected to fight. It was within 1" when the phase started so it HAS to pile in and try to fight at some point during the phase.

The only thing that gets sequenced is picking which spore mine blows up first, and then which is next, and next, etc etc...

Which means the spore mines end up with a potentially infinite range.

When the charge phase ends, every spore mine that is within 3" will blow up. Again, just like when the fight phase begins, every unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit will fight.


Actually Lance, you are wrong about the fight phase. It only cares about the current state of play, and not what units were within 1" at the start of the phase. It's spelt out in the designers commentary.

Marmatag has it right. Checking distance is a part of the "floating death" rule. You don't have permission to resolve the first part of the rule for Instance A, B, and C, then continue the rest of it using those results. You must resolve an instance in it's entirety then go onto the next. Sequencing allows you to chose if you want to resolve it as A, B, C, or as C, B, A, or as any other order.


You actually have it wrong.. You are told that if they are within 3" of an enemy model at the end of the phase they go boom. When you reach the end of the phase, you have to check to see which are within 3" - your permission is Floating Death telling you to chack the distance at the end of the phase.. If there are more than one within 3", the ones within 3" at that time go boom, and you have to use sequencing to handle the damage. You don't have a choice on when you check the distance (it all happens at the end of the phase), and you have no choice but to use sequencing to resolve the damage from the ones that go boom...but the distance has to have been checked before using sequencing to know which ones are involved in sequencing.


BUUT you can't even begin to check the distances before invoking sequencing. You have to check the distances simultaneously, which means you need to sequence the distance-checking, and since you have no way to resolve the rule only half-way, whichever distance you sequence to measure first also gets its damage resolved first, since you can't measure the distance, then pause the rule, then move onto the next distance-measure while the first iteration of the rule remains unresolved.


You have it backwards - you can't even begin to invoke sequencing unless there is more than one thing to resolve at the same time. In order to know if there is more than one thing to resolve at the same time (end of the phase), you have to check distance to the enemy unit to know whether the spore mine goes boom. Unless you know that you have more than one thing happening, you don't know that sequencing is needed. That means distance checking is not sequenced, but has to occur before sequencing in order to know if it's going to be involved in the sequencing in the first place.


But you can't check distance (other than to pre-measure, which is "pre" because it's not the action) except as part of resolving the Floating Death rule at the end of the phase.
If we were purely logical and not skipping steps:
1) Do charge phase.
2) All floating deaths happen at once for 3 Spore Mines on the board.
- 2a) Spore Mine 1 is not within 3" of an enemy, and does not detonate.
- 2b) Spore Mine 2 is not within 3" of an enemy, and does not detonate.
- 2c) Spore Mine 3 is not within 3" of an enemy, and does not detonate.

etc. etc. etc. until whatever turn:

1) Do charge phase.
2) All floating deaths happen at once for the now 4 Spore Mines on the board.
- 2a) Spore Mine 1 is not within 3" of an enemy, and does not detonate.
- 2b) Spore Mine 2 is within 3" of an enemy and detonates, doing d3 mortal wounds.
- 2c) Spore Mine 3 is within 3" of an enemy and detonates, doing d3 mortal wounds.
- 2d) Spore Mine 4 is not within 3" of an enemy and does not detonate.

You can re-arrange steps 2a, 2b, 2c, and 2d in whatever order you want, because of sequencing, but the whole action of Floating Death must be completed before you move on to another.

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
This isn't really an issue of sequencing.

Every spore mine that is within 3" of an enemy unit at the end of the charge phase WILL blow up. Done. It's happening. You don't need to check them one at a time. Just like you don't need to check each unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit during the fight phase. If, at the beginning of the fight phase they are within 1" then during the fight phase it WILL fight. Even if during the phase from combat and models diieing it ends up more than 1" away by the time it gets selected to fight. It was within 1" when the phase started so it HAS to pile in and try to fight at some point during the phase.

The only thing that gets sequenced is picking which spore mine blows up first, and then which is next, and next, etc etc...

Which means the spore mines end up with a potentially infinite range.

When the charge phase ends, every spore mine that is within 3" will blow up. Again, just like when the fight phase begins, every unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit will fight.


Actually Lance, you are wrong about the fight phase. It only cares about the current state of play, and not what units were within 1" at the start of the phase. It's spelt out in the designers commentary.

Marmatag has it right. Checking distance is a part of the "floating death" rule. You don't have permission to resolve the first part of the rule for Instance A, B, and C, then continue the rest of it using those results. You must resolve an instance in it's entirety then go onto the next. Sequencing allows you to chose if you want to resolve it as A, B, C, or as C, B, A, or as any other order.


You actually have it wrong.. You are told that if they are within 3" of an enemy model at the end of the phase they go boom. When you reach the end of the phase, you have to check to see which are within 3" - your permission is Floating Death telling you to chack the distance at the end of the phase.. If there are more than one within 3", the ones within 3" at that time go boom, and you have to use sequencing to handle the damage. You don't have a choice on when you check the distance (it all happens at the end of the phase), and you have no choice but to use sequencing to resolve the damage from the ones that go boom...but the distance has to have been checked before using sequencing to know which ones are involved in sequencing.


BUUT you can't even begin to check the distances before invoking sequencing. You have to check the distances simultaneously, which means you need to sequence the distance-checking, and since you have no way to resolve the rule only half-way, whichever distance you sequence to measure first also gets its damage resolved first, since you can't measure the distance, then pause the rule, then move onto the next distance-measure while the first iteration of the rule remains unresolved.


You have it backwards - you can't even begin to invoke sequencing unless there is more than one thing to resolve at the same time. In order to know if there is more than one thing to resolve at the same time (end of the phase), you have to check distance to the enemy unit to know whether the spore mine goes boom. Unless you know that you have more than one thing happening, you don't know that sequencing is needed. That means distance checking is not sequenced, but has to occur before sequencing in order to know if it's going to be involved in the sequencing in the first place.


But you can't check distance (other than to pre-measure, which is "pre" because it's not the action) except as part of resolving the Floating Death rule at the end of the phase..


If we were purely logical and not skipping steps:
1) Do charge phase.
2) All floating deaths happen at once for 3 Spore Mines on the board.
- 2a) Spore Mine 1 is not within 3" of an enemy, and does not detonate.
- 2b) Spore Mine 2 is not within 3" of an enemy, and does not detonate.
- 2c) Spore Mine 3 is not within 3" of an enemy, and does not detonate.

etc. etc. etc. until whatever turn:

1) Do charge phase.
2) All floating deaths happen at once for the now 4 Spore Mines on the board.
- 2a) Spore Mine 1 is not within 3" of an enemy, and does not detonate.
- 2b) Spore Mine 2 is within 3" of an enemy and detonates, doing d3 mortal wounds.
- 2c) Spore Mine 3 is within 3" of an enemy and detonates, doing d3 mortal wounds.
- 2d) Spore Mine 4 is not within 3" of an enemy and does not detonate.

You can re-arrange steps 2a, 2b, 2c, and 2d in whatever order you want, because of sequencing, but the whole action of Floating Death must be completed before you move on to another.


Simply not true. How do you know which units are within 3" at the end of the phase? By measuring. You don't invoke sequencing until you know you need sequencing. You are invoking sequencing before you know you need sequencing. You don't invoke sequencing to determine whether models are within 3" of an enemy unit, you only use it once you know which ones so that you can resolve their actions. In fact, you don't have permission to use sequencing until you know you have multiple things that require sequencing, which mandates you having to measure before invoking sequencing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 16:10:24


 
   
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 doctortom wrote:
Simply not true. How do you know which units are within 3" at the end of the phase? By measuring. You don't invoke sequencing until you know you need sequencing. You are invoking sequencing before you know you need sequencing. You don't invoke sequencing to determine whether models are within 3" of an enemy unit, you only use it once you know which ones so that you can resolve their actions. In fact, you don't have permission to use sequencing until you know you have multiple things that require sequencing, which mandates you having to measure before invoking sequencing.


I completely agree with you...

... which is why I explicitly pointed out that you check Floating Death at the end of every fight charge phase. It does not detonate the mine under certain conditions, but you always always have to check for those conditions, and therefore always always have to sequence your Floating Deaths, though you can skip it if it's fairly obvious there's no enemy unit within 3".

Floating Death triggers at the end of the Fight charge phase. So you invoke all your Floating Deaths at the end of the Fight charge phase. Then, you sequence them (e.g. Floating Death for Spore Mine A will go before Floating Death for Spore Mine B).

Then, you begin following your sequencing:
Floating Death for Spore Mine A returns a "no enemy within 3", didn't detonate" result.
Floating Death for Spore Mine B may very well be within 3" of an enemy, but you can't look until you've resolved all the Floating Deaths you've sequenced to put before it.
If Floating Death B's resolution killed every enemy within 3" of Spore Mine C, then obviously when you move on to the "Floating Death for Spore Mine C" in your sequence, it's no longer within 3", and so it returns a "no enemy within 3", didn't detonate" result.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/03 16:21:19


Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
 
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