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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
Unit, I did "bother to read it", so I don't really need you dripping condescension here. We can agree to disagree, but don't be copping an attitude like that.


Sequencing - "While playing Warhammer 40,,,, you'll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time" You still haven't provided proof that determining ir a rule needs resolution is part of the resolution requiring sequencing. I maintain that determining whether a rule applies is not part of sequencing, it's only the resolution of that rule. You see it differently. I see it as being hypocritical to allow "premeasuring" which is actually measuring without forcing sequencing in one case and forcing it on another. The "premeasurement" does affect things as I pointed out. You obviously don't see it that way. We're not going to agree on this, so we might as well accept that fact.


Alright, alright, let's accept that fact. I just wish you would understand what my point was, because I agree with your interpretation 100%. I just don't understand where the disconnect is between us, which I was trying to get at. I guess the disconnect is the difference between measuring-to-fulfill-a-rule and pre-measuring, but I'm sure you understand that difference as well. I don't get it.



The disconnect is in how we treat measuring. I'm treating it as something done in order to determine whether a unit is eligible for sequencing (if there are multiple units that will/could go at the same time), while you see it as part of the sequencing process itself. I see what you're saying, but I just don't agree with it. I think that's why should just agree to disagree, because we're not going to convince each other on that fundamental point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 20:09:57


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Falls Church, VA

 doctortom wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
Unit, I did "bother to read it", so I don't really need you dripping condescension here. We can agree to disagree, but don't be copping an attitude like that.


Sequencing - "While playing Warhammer 40,,,, you'll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time" You still haven't provided proof that determining ir a rule needs resolution is part of the resolution requiring sequencing. I maintain that determining whether a rule applies is not part of sequencing, it's only the resolution of that rule. You see it differently. I see it as being hypocritical to allow "premeasuring" which is actually measuring without forcing sequencing in one case and forcing it on another. The "premeasurement" does affect things as I pointed out. You obviously don't see it that way. We're not going to agree on this, so we might as well accept that fact.


Alright, alright, let's accept that fact. I just wish you would understand what my point was, because I agree with your interpretation 100%. I just don't understand where the disconnect is between us, which I was trying to get at. I guess the disconnect is the difference between measuring-to-fulfill-a-rule and pre-measuring, but I'm sure you understand that difference as well. I don't get it.



The disconnect is in how we treat measuring. I'm treating it as something done in order to determine whether a unit is eligible for sequencing, while you see it as part of the sequencing process itself. I see what you're saying, but I just don't agree with it.


But if you see the difference between pre-measuring (i.e. measuring "in order to determine whether a unit is eligible for sequencing") and actual measuring for the rule Floating Death, then why can't you understand that it's fine to skip all the other Floating Deaths if pre-measuring says there will be no effect on the game and only resolve the ones that are within 3" - doing them one at a time, and measuring each subsequent one to make sure it's still within 3" after the first exploded, since you are only just now starting its Floating Death?

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

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Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Floating Death does not require the unit be within 3" to trigger. Show me where it says that.


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
Unit, I did "bother to read it", so I don't really need you dripping condescension here. We can agree to disagree, but don't be copping an attitude like that.


Sequencing - "While playing Warhammer 40,,,, you'll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time" You still haven't provided proof that determining ir a rule needs resolution is part of the resolution requiring sequencing. I maintain that determining whether a rule applies is not part of sequencing, it's only the resolution of that rule. You see it differently. I see it as being hypocritical to allow "premeasuring" which is actually measuring without forcing sequencing in one case and forcing it on another. The "premeasurement" does affect things as I pointed out. You obviously don't see it that way. We're not going to agree on this, so we might as well accept that fact.


Alright, alright, let's accept that fact. I just wish you would understand what my point was, because I agree with your interpretation 100%. I just don't understand where the disconnect is between us, which I was trying to get at. I guess the disconnect is the difference between measuring-to-fulfill-a-rule and pre-measuring, but I'm sure you understand that difference as well. I don't get it.



The disconnect is in how we treat measuring. I'm treating it as something done in order to determine whether a unit is eligible for sequencing, while you see it as part of the sequencing process itself. I see what you're saying, but I just don't agree with it.


But if you see the difference between pre-measuring (i.e. measuring "in order to determine whether a unit is eligible for sequencing") and actual measuring for the rule Floating Death, then why can't you understand that it's fine to skip all the other Floating Deaths if pre-measuring says there will be no effect on the game and only resolve the ones that are within 3" - doing them one at a time, and measuring each subsequent one to make sure it's still within 3" after the first exploded, since you are only just now starting its Floating Death?


I treat it the way I do measuring to see who can charge - the "pre-measurements" you call them can affect the game then as well. Knowing the distance on the units beforehand lets you know your chances on whether they might make a charge, which could affect your decision on whether some other units charge or nor (in addition to the other things I had mentioned). I see those measurements merely as determining whether a rule applies or not, as something required before sequencing, instead of forcing sequencing on something that could hypothetically be involved or not. If it's not close enough, it's not going to explode, therefore the rule does not apply. That measurement for the Spore Mines, determining whether they are going in or not, is already done at the end of the phase with that initial measurement. I don't see it as a "pre" measurement at that time. You seem to not understand that I don't accept it as merely a pre-measurement.
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

The rule applies whether or not you're within 3" of something. Because the RULE ITSELF is not predicated on range.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 doctortom wrote:
You charge one unit at a time, and the effects of charging can effect what units can fire overwatch (especially with Tau). Also, people will know how many units they have within range before charging with the first unit instead of guessing how many. If you don't force sequencing on measuring there, you shouldn't be forcing sequencing on measuring for the spore mines.
Yes, "You charge one unit at a time" but I do not see how that is relavant to the Floating Death rule.

Charging (or selecting a unit to charge with) is a totally different situation. You do not have to choose any units to charge if you do not want to. So you dont need to "know how many units they have within range before charging with the first unit instead of guessing how many." Sequencing does not come into play because the charge rules themselves tell you exactly how to resolve multiple units charging.

Floating death does not mention sequencing at all, so we have to use the default rules for sequencing.

So saying "If you don't force sequencing on measuring there, you shouldn't be forcing sequencing on measuring for the spore mines." is an incorrect comparrison since the two situations are not even remotely similar.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

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We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Measuring if they are within range to charge and measuring if spore mines are within range to blow up is not an incorrect comparison, both are measuring to see if the units are eligible (or forced in the case of spore mines) to take a subsequent action.
   
Made in gb
Sneaky Lictor



UK

Just post to clear up the muddle..
if I have 6 units of 3 spore mines charge into single 1” base model enemy with one wound left... every single spore mine are within 3” at end of charge phase on that poor model..

How can we work out for that?


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Made in us
One Canoptek Scarab in a Swarm



Illinois

 doctortom wrote:
Measuring if they are within range to charge and measuring if spore mines are within range to blow up is not an incorrect comparison, both are measuring to see if the units are eligible (or forced in the case of spore mines) to take a subsequent action.

I see what you mean - since the charge phase begins with, "Any unit within 12" of an enemy unit can make a charge move," you're saying that the measuring is effectively done outside of the charge move itself - you measure for everyone, then you start the charge sequence, you don't measure for one unit and then resolve the charge just for that unit prior to making any other measurements.

I would argue that charging still follows different rules, since the phase as a whole applies to every unit. Once you select a unit, in every case, you follow the rules until the sequence is resolved, and then move on to the next. With the Spore Mines, there's no phase rule that says, "Now, check for proximity abilities."

In other words, the flow for Charging is: Phase begins -> Verify which units can charge -> Select unit to charge -> Follow the rules until resolved.

But for Spore Mines, the ability that asks you to measure is already contained in a SPECIFIC unit, which means you've already selected which unit to resolve. The measuring takes place as part of a unit-specific rule, and thus you don't measure for every unit simultaneously - you measure for the first unit you selected, resolve appropriately, and then move on to the next.

Solidcrash wrote:
Just post to clear up the muddle..
if I have 6 units of 3 spore mines charge into single 1” base model enemy with one wound left... every single spore mine are within 3” at end of charge phase on that poor model..

How can we work out for that?

Well, that's the debate. I would argue that you would select a spore mine (any one you like, really), measure whether it's within 3", blow it up, resolve the mortal wounds. If the enemy model is dead, no other spores are within 3" of an enemy model, and the remaining 17 spores are still alive and floating.

2k poorly optimized Necrons.

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Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 doctortom wrote:
Measuring if they are within range to charge and measuring if spore mines are within range to blow up is not an incorrect comparison, both are measuring to see if the units are eligible (or forced in the case of spore mines) to take a subsequent action.


Measuring if they are within range to charge is done after you select a unit to charge with. If they are not within 12" you do not proceed with the rest of the charge rules.

You can't force the measuring sequence on charging units because every unit does not automatically have to charge, you can choose to not charge with any units even if they are in range. unlike Spore Mines.

That is why it was an incorrect comparison.

Archebius wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
Measuring if they are within range to charge and measuring if spore mines are within range to blow up is not an incorrect comparison, both are measuring to see if the units are eligible (or forced in the case of spore mines) to take a subsequent action.

I see what you mean - since the charge phase begins with, "Any unit within 12" of an enemy unit can make a charge move," you're saying that the measuring is effectively done outside of the charge move itself - you measure for everyone, then you start the charge sequence, you don't measure for one unit and then resolve the charge just for that unit prior to making any other measurements.
You have to follow step 1 of the charging rules which is "Choose Unit to Charge With". Once you do you can measure to see if the unit is in range. If they are they are an eligible unit to make the charge roll. They only need to be within 12 inches to make a charge roll, but you can choose any unit (with some restrictions about advance etc...) to start step 1 of the Charge rules.

You can of course Pre-Measure, and see if it is even worth it to use the Charge rules starting with step 1, but measuring is done in Step 1.

This is backed up by Step 2, the "Choose Targets" step, that says "once you have chosen an eligible unit" you can choose any unit, but only an eligible unit can "Choose Targets"


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/03 23:21:17


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
 
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