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Made in us
One Canoptek Scarab in a Swarm



Illinois

So, the difference of opinion seems to revolve around whether the turn goes like this:
1. [Charge Phase]
2. [Measuring for abilities that happen at the end of charge phase]
3. [Abilities activate if applicable]
4. [Fight Phase]

Or

1. [Charge Phase]
2. [Choose model that has "end of charge phase" ability, measure for ability, and resolve if applicable. Repeat]
3. [Fight Phase]

I would argue that there are no other instances in the game where you measure every potential action during a phase all at once. Regardless of whether we're talking shooting, psychic, aura abilities, what have you, you always check each unit/model to see whether they are still in range, whether target units are still in range, etc. "At the end of the charge phase" is just saying, "These abilities activate after the charge phase and before the fight phase," not, "everything happens all at once, unlike everything else in the game."

Anraykr the Traveller, for instance, has an ability that states "At the start of your Shooting phase, choose an enemy vehicle within 12" of Anrakyr the Traveller and roll a D6. On a 4+, choose a weapon from that vehicle. You may shoot with that weapon at another enemy unit." So let's say that Anrakyr was not a unique unit (which I realize he is), and I have two of him, both within range of a single vehicle that has a single health and plasma weapons. I could activate Anrakyr #1, pick the vehicle, shoot an overcharged plasma shot, potentially roll a 1 for the hit roll and destroy the vehicle. I could NOT then say, "Well, Anrakyr #2 was within range of a vehicle at the START of the of the shooting phase, so I get to use the same (now nonexistent) vehicle to shoot." The vehicle doesn't exist any more. The ability doesn't activate. You resolve each ability individually.

You have to resolve all Spore Mine Floating Death abilities prior to the start of the fight phase - but they don't all trigger at once. You still pick each model, resolve the rule, and then proceed. Measuring is a part of the rule - it still happens on a model by model and unit by unit basis.

2k poorly optimized Necrons.

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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
Simply not true. How do you know which units are within 3" at the end of the phase? By measuring. You don't invoke sequencing until you know you need sequencing. You are invoking sequencing before you know you need sequencing. You don't invoke sequencing to determine whether models are within 3" of an enemy unit, you only use it once you know which ones so that you can resolve their actions. In fact, you don't have permission to use sequencing until you know you have multiple things that require sequencing, which mandates you having to measure before invoking sequencing.


I completely agree with you...

... which is why I explicitly pointed out that you check Floating Death at the end of every fight charge phase. It does not detonate the mine under certain conditions, but you always always have to check for those conditions, and therefore always always have to sequence your Floating Deaths, though you can skip it if it's fairly obvious there's no enemy unit within 3".

Floating Death triggers at the end of the Fight charge phase. So you invoke all your Floating Deaths at the end of the Fight charge phase. Then, you sequence them (e.g. Floating Death for Spore Mine A will go before Floating Death for Spore Mine B).

Then, you begin following your sequencing:
Floating Death for Spore Mine A returns a "no enemy within 3", didn't detonate" result.
Floating Death for Spore Mine B may very well be within 3" of an enemy, but you can't look until you've resolved all the Floating Deaths you've sequenced to put before it.
If Floating Death B's resolution killed every enemy within 3" of Spore Mine C, then obviously when you move on to the "Floating Death for Spore Mine C" in your sequence, it's no longer within 3", and so it returns a "no enemy within 3", didn't detonate" result.


If you completely agree with me, then you don't use sequencing until after you've determined which ones are within 3" of an enemy.

Please provide the RAW quote to indicate that you always have to sequence them. I don't see any justification or permission for sequencing until after you've determined which units are going to be involved in the sequencing, which means you've already determined which ones are involved by measuring. You don't get to sequence measuring the distance since you have to do that in order to determine who is involved in the sequencing.
   
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Schenectady, New York

Hi, thought I'd chime in on how the OP example should play out.

Quoted rules in question (emphasis mine):
Page 99 Codex: Tyranids Floating Death:
Floating Death: A Spore Mine explodes if it is within 3" of any enemy units at the end of any Charge phase. Each time a Spore Mine explodes, roll a D6; on a 1 it fails to inflict any harm, on a 2-5 it inflicts 1 mortal wound on the nearest enemy unit, and on a 6 it inflicts D3 mortal wounds on that unit. The Spore Mine is then destroyed.

Page 178 BRB Sequencing:
While playing WH40k, you'll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time - normally 'at the end of the Charge phase', or 'before the battle begins'. When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order...

I have 3 spore mines, A B and C, located 3.1" away from Primaris Intercessor Adam and 6000" away from Primaris Intercessor Bartholomew, these are the only models on the board.

I charge the Primaris Intercessor with all 3 mines, surviving overwatch, and rolling a 3+ for each mine. The mines then go within 1" of Primaris Intercessor Adam.


In the above scenario, we have 3 spore mines within 3" of an enemy model at the end of the Charge Phase. Floating Death would occur for them, but because the rule on pg 99 of the Tyranid codex explicitly states *A* spore mine detonates if *IT* is within 3" of an enemy model at the end of the Charge Phase, you must sequence the multiple spore mines (because it is the same rule happening for 3 different models at the same time). So you would sequence as many others in the thread suggest:

End of Charge Phase, check that spore mine A is within 3" of an enemy, Resolve Floating death (Primaris Intercessor Adam takes a MW)
End of Charge Phase, check that spore mine B is within 3" of an enemy, Resolve Floating death (Primaris Intercessor Adam takes a MW, slaying him)
End of Charge Phase, check that spore mine C is within 3" of an enemy. Primaris Adam was slain, so Floating Death is not resolved. Spore mine C is free to move next turn (possibly blowing up, possibly giving up this barbaric warlike lifestyle and finding a nice cordyceps and settling down, raising a family)

So no, I don't believe spore mines have an unlimited range.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 17:21:48


 
   
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Falls Church, VA

 doctortom wrote:

If you completely agree with me, then you don't use sequencing until after you've determined which ones are within 3" of an enemy.

Please provide the RAW quote to indicate that you always have to sequence them. I don't see any justification or permission for sequencing until after you've determined which units are going to be involved in the sequencing, which means you've already determined which ones are involved by measuring. You don't get to sequence measuring the distance since you have to do that in order to determine who is involved in the sequencing.


You can't measure for the ability without calling the ability. You can "pre-measure", which is different (and explicitly so, hence the "pre").

So you can pre-measure to determine which ones you will have to sequence (instead of bothering with declaring all of them, though a computer would), and then sequence them, and then measure again for each individual one since the ability mandates that you measure, but that does mean that sufficiently powerful detonations may mean that ones that started the phase within 3" will not be able to detonate when their Floating Death resolution is called, depending on how you decided to sequence it.

And the reason you need to sequence them all the time is that the ability triggers at the end of the Charge Phase. Automatically, not optionally. A computer system would, finding itself at the end of the charge phase, look at each iteration of Floating Death in a sequence (if it was presumably incapable of doing so simultaneously, like a real player) and then follow the floating death rules. In a majority of cases, this will be pointless, as the spores will not be within 3" of an enemy and calling the Floating Death iteration for a mine that isn't within 3" does nothing save satisfying the letter of the rules, but it does emphasize that, besides pre-measuring for convenience, there is technically no way to resolve the mines except one whole action at a time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 17:28:03


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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 doctortom wrote:

If you completely agree with me, then you don't use sequencing until after you've determined which ones are within 3" of an enemy.

Please provide the RAW quote to indicate that you always have to sequence them. I don't see any justification or permission for sequencing until after you've determined which units are going to be involved in the sequencing, which means you've already determined which ones are involved by measuring. You don't get to sequence measuring the distance since you have to do that in order to determine who is involved in the sequencing.


You can't measure for the ability without calling the ability. You can "pre-measure", which is different (and explicitly so, hence the "pre").

So you can pre-measure to determine which ones you will have to sequence (instead of bothering with declaring all of them, though a computer would), and then sequence them, and then measure again for each individual one since the ability mandates that you measure, but that does mean that sufficiently powerful detonations may mean that ones that started the phase within 3" will not be able to detonate when their Floating Death resolution is called, depending on how you decided to sequence it.

And the reason you need to sequence them all the time is that the ability triggers at the end of the Charge Phase. Automatically, not optionally. A computer system would, finding itself at the end of the charge phase, look at each iteration of Floating Death in a sequence (if it was presumably incapable of doing so simultaneously, like a real player) and then follow the floating death rules. In a majority of cases, this will be pointless, as the spores will not be within 3" of an enemy and calling the Floating Death iteration for a mine that isn't within 3" does nothing save satisfying the letter of the rules, but it does emphasize that, besides pre-measuring for convenience, there is technically no way to resolve the mines except one whole action at a time.


It's not a "pre" measure, it's measuring to determine whether the spore mine explodes. You already have the measurement to determine which ones explode. The ability says nothing about measuring again once you have the measurement to determine which ones are involved; that is something you are making up. Sequencing is mandatory for these, but it is resolving the effect of each one exploding; it is not determining which ones explode in the first place. You already know that, and don't determine it again.
   
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Falls Church, VA

 doctortom wrote:
It's not a "pre" measure, it's measuring to determine whether the spore mine explodes. You already have the measurement to determine which ones explode. The ability says nothing about measuring again once you have the measurement to determine which ones are involved; that is something you are making up. Sequencing is mandatory for these, but it is resolving the effect of each one exploding; it is not determining which ones explode in the first place. You already know that, and don't determine it again.

You aren't allowed to measure to see if a mine explodes without first calling the Floating Death rule, as you have no instructions to do so until you call the rule. So you must finish the resolution of the rule, before you move on to finish the rest of your sequenced Floating Deaths, since the only thing that triggers the rule is the end of the charge phase, and not being within 3" of the enemy.

You can pre-measure for convenience, so you don't have to call Floating Death for literally every single spore mine on the table, but technically, such pre-measuring is not required to run the Floating Death script at the end of the Charge Phase, and you don't measure to see if the mine detonates until Floating Death explicitly instructs you to, which means you must subsequently finish the instruction (instead of pausing and starting another iteration of Floating Death without finishing the first, then finishing the first later).

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
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Chicago, IL

 doctortom wrote:

It's not a "pre" measure, it's measuring to determine whether the spore mine explodes. You already have the measurement to determine which ones explode. The ability says nothing about measuring again once you have the measurement to determine which ones are involved; that is something you are making up. Sequencing is mandatory for these, but it is resolving the effect of each one exploding; it is not determining which ones explode in the first place. You already know that, and don't determine it again.


Except you can not already know which ones explode until you use the Spore mine's Floating Death rule and measure and resolve each spore mine. You can not measure all at once you have to measure and resolve each rule then move onto the next one.

The rule happens at the end of the charge phase. You then pick a spore mine with the rule. You measure to see if it is within range, then follow the rest of the rules and then move on to the next mine, see if it is within range etc...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 18:10:12


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East Bay, Ca, US

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
It's not a "pre" measure, it's measuring to determine whether the spore mine explodes. You already have the measurement to determine which ones explode. The ability says nothing about measuring again once you have the measurement to determine which ones are involved; that is something you are making up. Sequencing is mandatory for these, but it is resolving the effect of each one exploding; it is not determining which ones explode in the first place. You already know that, and don't determine it again.

You aren't allowed to measure to see if a mine explodes without first calling the Floating Death rule, as you have no instructions to do so until you call the rule. So you must finish the resolution of the rule, before you move on to finish the rest of your sequenced Floating Deaths, since the only thing that triggers the rule is the end of the charge phase, and not being within 3" of the enemy.

You can pre-measure for convenience, so you don't have to call Floating Death for literally every single spore mine on the table, but technically, such pre-measuring is not required to run the Floating Death script at the end of the Charge Phase, and you don't measure to see if the mine detonates until Floating Death explicitly instructs you to, which means you must subsequently finish the instruction (instead of pausing and starting another iteration of Floating Death without finishing the first, then finishing the first later).


This is absolutely correct.

You have to sequence all instances of floating death, even if you're outside of 3", just to know that they don't explode.

A computer would apply floating death for every single Spore in a sequence, even if they were obviously outside of 3". Because you're sequencing the whole floating death package, which includes the measurement.

If the rule said, "if a spore mine is within 3" at the end of the charge phase, apply <Floating Death>" that would be different, because then the floating death events would be queued as the measurement happened separately.

Measuring is part of the floating death action. There is no getting around this. You MUST sequence all floating death rules. Even if you're outside of 3", they must all be sequenced. This is how it works.

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Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
It's not a "pre" measure, it's measuring to determine whether the spore mine explodes. You already have the measurement to determine which ones explode. The ability says nothing about measuring again once you have the measurement to determine which ones are involved; that is something you are making up. Sequencing is mandatory for these, but it is resolving the effect of each one exploding; it is not determining which ones explode in the first place. You already know that, and don't determine it again.

You aren't allowed to measure to see if a mine explodes without first calling the Floating Death rule, as you have no instructions to do so until you call the rule. So you must finish the resolution of the rule, before you move on to finish the rest of your sequenced Floating Deaths, since the only thing that triggers the rule is the end of the charge phase, and not being within 3" of the enemy.

You can pre-measure for convenience, so you don't have to call Floating Death for literally every single spore mine on the table, but technically, such pre-measuring is not required to run the Floating Death script at the end of the Charge Phase, and you don't measure to see if the mine detonates until Floating Death explicitly instructs you to, which means you must subsequently finish the instruction (instead of pausing and starting another iteration of Floating Death without finishing the first, then finishing the first later).


You can reference the Floating Death rule all you want - it doesn't force you to sequence. What forces you to sequence is having multiple spore mine units within 3". That's not a pre-measurement, it's measuring to determine what units are in range and will require the sequencing. It is required because you don't sequence unless you need it. When you determine who explodes, THEN you go to sequencing. These are all simultaneous, but resolved through sequencing...AFTER you have determined who is involved. You are following their explicit instructions by measuring first, as well as following the rules for sequencing that doesn't say you have permission to invoke it unless there are multiple things happening simultaneously. Measuring to the enemy unit is not an action that triggers sequencing, it is only a determination of what units will be involved. it's the spore mines within 3" of the enemy unit exploding that are the actions happening simultaneously that trigger sequencing.
   
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Falls Church, VA

 doctortom wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
It's not a "pre" measure, it's measuring to determine whether the spore mine explodes. You already have the measurement to determine which ones explode. The ability says nothing about measuring again once you have the measurement to determine which ones are involved; that is something you are making up. Sequencing is mandatory for these, but it is resolving the effect of each one exploding; it is not determining which ones explode in the first place. You already know that, and don't determine it again.

You aren't allowed to measure to see if a mine explodes without first calling the Floating Death rule, as you have no instructions to do so until you call the rule. So you must finish the resolution of the rule, before you move on to finish the rest of your sequenced Floating Deaths, since the only thing that triggers the rule is the end of the charge phase, and not being within 3" of the enemy.

You can pre-measure for convenience, so you don't have to call Floating Death for literally every single spore mine on the table, but technically, such pre-measuring is not required to run the Floating Death script at the end of the Charge Phase, and you don't measure to see if the mine detonates until Floating Death explicitly instructs you to, which means you must subsequently finish the instruction (instead of pausing and starting another iteration of Floating Death without finishing the first, then finishing the first later).


You can reference the Floating Death rule all you want - it doesn't force you to sequence. What forces you to sequence is having multiple spore mine units within 3". That's not a pre-measurement, it's measuring to determine what units are in range and will require the sequencing. It is required because you don't sequence unless you need it. When you determine who explodes, THEN you go to sequencing. These are all simultaneous, but resolved through sequencing...AFTER you have determined who is involved. You are following their explicit instructions by measuring first, as well as following the rules for sequencing that doesn't say you have permission to invoke it unless there are multiple things happening simultaneously. Measuring to the enemy unit is not an action that triggers sequencing, it is only a determination of what units will be involved. it's the spore mines within 3" of the enemy unit exploding that are the actions happening simultaneously that trigger sequencing.


You continue to iterate the same points without understanding me, so I will once again reword my reply:
What forces you to sequence is the Floating Death rule. In every case. Because every single Floating Death rule on the table is called at the end of the Charge Phase, even ones that are not within 3" of the enemy. Generally, you can skip those for convenience, but being within 3" is required for Floating Death to proceed onto the next step (dice roll to inflict wounds), not required for Floating Death to happen at all. Floating Death is a passive, "always on" ability, which constantly checks at the end of the Charge Phase for the criteria in the rule. You must, therefore, sequence the order in which these multiple Floating Deaths are enacted. Once a Floating Death is reached in the sequence that does have an enemy unit with 3", the rest of the rule finishes (like an if-then statement in a boolean system), before you move on to the next iteration of the rule that you've sequenced.

Every single model with the Floating Death rule is involved at the end of the Charge Phase, not merely the ones within 3" of the enemy. Which ones explode, or not, is determined purely by the sequence you choose to resolve those Floating Deaths in, because the act of resolving a Floating Death includes measuring, then checking the measurement against a set of criteria, and then obeying the standard logic of either detonating or not based on the fairly simple and clear wording of the rule.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 18:26:17


Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

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Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
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East Bay, Ca, US

It's fun being on the same side as Unit for a change

You cannot measure the 3" to apply floating death without applying the entirety of the floating death rule. There is nothing that allows to sequence half of a rule.

 Galas wrote:
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Bharring wrote:
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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
It's not a "pre" measure, it's measuring to determine whether the spore mine explodes. You already have the measurement to determine which ones explode. The ability says nothing about measuring again once you have the measurement to determine which ones are involved; that is something you are making up. Sequencing is mandatory for these, but it is resolving the effect of each one exploding; it is not determining which ones explode in the first place. You already know that, and don't determine it again.

You aren't allowed to measure to see if a mine explodes without first calling the Floating Death rule, as you have no instructions to do so until you call the rule. So you must finish the resolution of the rule, before you move on to finish the rest of your sequenced Floating Deaths, since the only thing that triggers the rule is the end of the charge phase, and not being within 3" of the enemy.

You can pre-measure for convenience, so you don't have to call Floating Death for literally every single spore mine on the table, but technically, such pre-measuring is not required to run the Floating Death script at the end of the Charge Phase, and you don't measure to see if the mine detonates until Floating Death explicitly instructs you to, which means you must subsequently finish the instruction (instead of pausing and starting another iteration of Floating Death without finishing the first, then finishing the first later).


You can reference the Floating Death rule all you want - it doesn't force you to sequence. What forces you to sequence is having multiple spore mine units within 3". That's not a pre-measurement, it's measuring to determine what units are in range and will require the sequencing. It is required because you don't sequence unless you need it. When you determine who explodes, THEN you go to sequencing. These are all simultaneous, but resolved through sequencing...AFTER you have determined who is involved. You are following their explicit instructions by measuring first, as well as following the rules for sequencing that doesn't say you have permission to invoke it unless there are multiple things happening simultaneously. Measuring to the enemy unit is not an action that triggers sequencing, it is only a determination of what units will be involved. it's the spore mines within 3" of the enemy unit exploding that are the actions happening simultaneously that trigger sequencing.


You continue to iterate the same points without understanding me, so I will once again reword my reply:
What forces you to sequence is the Floating Death rule. In every case. Because every single Floating Death rule on the table is called at the end of the Charge Phase, even ones that are not within 3" of the enemy. Generally, you can skip those for convenience, but being within 3" is required for Floating Death to proceed onto the next step (dice roll to inflict wounds), not required for Floating Death to happen at all. Floating Death is a passive, "always on" ability, which constantly checks at the end of the Charge Phase for the criteria in the rule. You must, therefore, sequence the order in which these multiple Floating Deaths are enacted. Once a Floating Death is reached in the sequence that does have an enemy unit with 3", the rest of the rule finishes (like an if-then statement in a boolean system), before you move on to the next iteration of the rule that you've sequenced.

Every single model with the Floating Death rule is involved at the end of the Charge Phase, not merely the ones within 3" of the enemy. Which ones explode, or not, is determined purely by the sequence you choose to resolve those Floating Deaths in, because the act of resolving a Floating Death includes measuring, then checking the measurement against a set of criteria, and then obeying the standard logic of either detonating or not based on the fairly simple and clear wording of the rule.


You seem to assume I don't understand you. I do, but I just reject your analysis, just as you are rejecting mine (but I'm not accusing you of not understanding it). Basically, we're not going to come to an agreement on this, so we might as well just agree to disagree on it instead of going to fill another 5 pages.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 18:32:04


 
   
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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
It's not a "pre" measure, it's measuring to determine whether the spore mine explodes. You already have the measurement to determine which ones explode. The ability says nothing about measuring again once you have the measurement to determine which ones are involved; that is something you are making up. Sequencing is mandatory for these, but it is resolving the effect of each one exploding; it is not determining which ones explode in the first place. You already know that, and don't determine it again.

You aren't allowed to measure to see if a mine explodes without first calling the Floating Death rule, as you have no instructions to do so until you call the rule. So you must finish the resolution of the rule, before you move on to finish the rest of your sequenced Floating Deaths, since the only thing that triggers the rule is the end of the charge phase, and not being within 3" of the enemy.

You can pre-measure for convenience, so you don't have to call Floating Death for literally every single spore mine on the table, but technically, such pre-measuring is not required to run the Floating Death script at the end of the Charge Phase, and you don't measure to see if the mine detonates until Floating Death explicitly instructs you to, which means you must subsequently finish the instruction (instead of pausing and starting another iteration of Floating Death without finishing the first, then finishing the first later).


You can reference the Floating Death rule all you want - it doesn't force you to sequence. What forces you to sequence is having multiple spore mine units within 3". That's not a pre-measurement, it's measuring to determine what units are in range and will require the sequencing. It is required because you don't sequence unless you need it. When you determine who explodes, THEN you go to sequencing. These are all simultaneous, but resolved through sequencing...AFTER you have determined who is involved. You are following their explicit instructions by measuring first, as well as following the rules for sequencing that doesn't say you have permission to invoke it unless there are multiple things happening simultaneously. Measuring to the enemy unit is not an action that triggers sequencing, it is only a determination of what units will be involved. it's the spore mines within 3" of the enemy unit exploding that are the actions happening simultaneously that trigger sequencing.


You continue to iterate the same points without understanding me, so I will once again reword my reply:
What forces you to sequence is the Floating Death rule. In every case. Because every single Floating Death rule on the table is called at the end of the Charge Phase, even ones that are not within 3" of the enemy. Generally, you can skip those for convenience, but being within 3" is required for Floating Death to proceed onto the next step (dice roll to inflict wounds), not required for Floating Death to happen at all. Floating Death is a passive, "always on" ability, which constantly checks at the end of the Charge Phase for the criteria in the rule. You must, therefore, sequence the order in which these multiple Floating Deaths are enacted. Once a Floating Death is reached in the sequence that does have an enemy unit with 3", the rest of the rule finishes (like an if-then statement in a boolean system), before you move on to the next iteration of the rule that you've sequenced.

Every single model with the Floating Death rule is involved at the end of the Charge Phase, not merely the ones within 3" of the enemy. Which ones explode, or not, is determined purely by the sequence you choose to resolve those Floating Deaths in, because the act of resolving a Floating Death includes measuring, then checking the measurement against a set of criteria, and then obeying the standard logic of either detonating or not based on the fairly simple and clear wording of the rule.


This is correct. Sequencing enters the occasion before you even measure. Therefor you sequence the spore mines 1 at a time. So you check the first spore it's in range, explodes kills the only unit in 3 inches. Then you move on to spore 2 and it no longer has anything in range so doesn't explode. Then spore 3 to whatever. Per the rules though you must check every spore even the ones who aren't even close to 3 inches.

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 Marmatag wrote:
It's fun being on the same side as Unit for a change

You cannot measure the 3" to apply floating death without applying the entirety of the floating death rule. There is nothing that allows to sequence half of a rule.


You are not sequencing half a rule, you are sequencing the rule after you have determined if the rule applies, but, as I told Unit, I don't see us convincing each other, so we should just agree to disagree on this and respect that we aren't going to change each other's minds on it.
   
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Fixture of Dakka






Falls Church, VA

 doctortom wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
It's fun being on the same side as Unit for a change

You cannot measure the 3" to apply floating death without applying the entirety of the floating death rule. There is nothing that allows to sequence half of a rule.


You are not sequencing half a rule, you are sequencing the rule after you have determined if the rule applies, but, as I told Unit, I don't see us convincing each other, so we should just agree to disagree on this and respect that we aren't going to change each other's minds on it.


The problem with your analysis is that you miss my point:

The rule applies at the end of every charge phase, bang, boom, done.

It just doesn't do anything until it finds itself within 3" of an enemy, at which point you have already started the rule's resolution process by measuring.

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

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East Bay, Ca, US

 doctortom wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
It's fun being on the same side as Unit for a change

You cannot measure the 3" to apply floating death without applying the entirety of the floating death rule. There is nothing that allows to sequence half of a rule.


You are not sequencing half a rule, you are sequencing the rule after you have determined if the rule applies, but, as I told Unit, I don't see us convincing each other, so we should just agree to disagree on this and respect that we aren't going to change each other's minds on it.


Tell me, what allows you to determine if the rule applies?

Why don't you measure 6" instead of 3"?

Answer: because the floating death rule instructs you how to measure, because measurement is part of the rule.

Unless you can create an argument which allows you to measure and determine a mine is eligible to explode without using the instructions in floating death, you're wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:

The rule applies at the end of every charge phase, bang, boom, done.

It just doesn't do anything until it finds itself within 3" of an enemy, at which point you have already started the rule's resolution process by measuring.


Exactly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 18:40:54


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
It's fun being on the same side as Unit for a change

You cannot measure the 3" to apply floating death without applying the entirety of the floating death rule. There is nothing that allows to sequence half of a rule.


You are not sequencing half a rule, you are sequencing the rule after you have determined if the rule applies, but, as I told Unit, I don't see us convincing each other, so we should just agree to disagree on this and respect that we aren't going to change each other's minds on it.


The problem with your analysis is that you miss my point:

The rule applies at the end of every charge phase, bang, boom, done.

It just doesn't do anything until it finds itself within 3" of an enemy, at which point you have already started the rule's resolution process by measuring.


Yes, it applies at the end of every charge phase. It applies to each spore mine unit within 3" at the end of the phase. How do you determine which ones it applies to? By measuring. THEN, you go to sequencing IF there is more than one unit meeting the criteria for using the rule. You don't sequence getting to determine whether a rule applies. This is the point that you keep missing.



EDIT: Here, this might make it more clear. For the Charge phase, every unit within 12" is eligible to charge. You don't sequence measuring to each unit to determine whether it it within 12" and is eligible. The same thing applies here - you don't sequence until a spore mine is within 3" of an enemy unit. You don't sequence determining measuring to determine which ones are within 3", just like you don't sequence measuring to see who is eligible to charge.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/03 18:51:16


 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

 doctortom wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
It's fun being on the same side as Unit for a change

You cannot measure the 3" to apply floating death without applying the entirety of the floating death rule. There is nothing that allows to sequence half of a rule.


You are not sequencing half a rule, you are sequencing the rule after you have determined if the rule applies, but, as I told Unit, I don't see us convincing each other, so we should just agree to disagree on this and respect that we aren't going to change each other's minds on it.


The problem with your analysis is that you miss my point:

The rule applies at the end of every charge phase, bang, boom, done.

It just doesn't do anything until it finds itself within 3" of an enemy, at which point you have already started the rule's resolution process by measuring.


Yes, it applies at the end of every charge phase. It applies to each spore mine unit within 3" at the end of the phase. How do you determine which ones it applies to? By measuring. THEN, you go to sequencing IF there is more than one unit meeting the criteria for using the rule. You don't sequence getting to determine whether a rule applies. This is the point that you keep missing.

So, I guess this means you aren't willing to agree to disagree on this?


Floating death does not apply to each spore mine within 3".

Floating death applies to each spore mine, and then has an effect if the mine is within 3".

There is no other way to read this. The floating death rule INCLUDES the measurement. You cannot measure for floating death without invoking floating death.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Falls Church, VA

 doctortom wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
It's fun being on the same side as Unit for a change

You cannot measure the 3" to apply floating death without applying the entirety of the floating death rule. There is nothing that allows to sequence half of a rule.


You are not sequencing half a rule, you are sequencing the rule after you have determined if the rule applies, but, as I told Unit, I don't see us convincing each other, so we should just agree to disagree on this and respect that we aren't going to change each other's minds on it.


The problem with your analysis is that you miss my point:

The rule applies at the end of every charge phase, bang, boom, done.

It just doesn't do anything until it finds itself within 3" of an enemy, at which point you have already started the rule's resolution process by measuring.


Yes, it applies at the end of every charge phase. It applies to each spore mine unit within 3" at the end of the phase. How do you determine which ones it applies to? By measuring. THEN, you go to sequencing IF there is more than one unit meeting the criteria for using the rule. You don't sequence getting to determine whether a rule applies. This is the point that you keep missing.

So, I guess this means you aren't willing to agree to disagree on this?


I am always willing to agree to disagree, but the flaws in your logic are so clear it almost hurts, and I am disappointed you can't see them.

My comments in red:
"Yes, it applies at the end of every charge phase. It applies to each spore mine unit within 3" at the end of the phase. This is demonstrably not true, as having a unit within 3" is not a requirement to call the Floating Death rule. It is merely a requirement to follow the rest of it. How do you determine which ones it applies to? By seeing which units on the table have the rule... By measuring. No, measuring is merely part of how you complete the rule, not how you determine who is eligible. Anyone with the rule is eligible, as it is a "passive" ability, to use video-game terms. THEN, you go to sequencing No, this is too late; you would have had to sequence the order you want to resolve your Floating Deaths in, before you started to resolve them by measuring. IF there is more than one unit meeting the criteria for using the rule.As long as there is more than one unit on the board with the rule, then there is more than one unit meeting the criteria for using the rule. Because it's a passive rule. It may not do anything except under specific conditions, but it is "always on". You don't sequence getting to determine whether a rule applies. Yes you do, this is literally what you have to sequence: the rule abruptly applies to everyone simultaneously at a single point in time: the end of the charge phase. Regardless of whether or not enemy units are within 3" (though it doesn't do anything if they're not. This is the point that you keep missing."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Extra post to address your edit:
 doctortom wrote:
EDIT: Here, this might make it more clear. For the Charge phase, every unit within 12" is eligible to charge. You don't sequence measuring to each unit to determine whether it it within 12" and is eligible. The same thing applies here - you don't sequence until a spore mine is within 3" of an enemy unit. You don't sequence determining measuring to determine which ones are within 3", just like you don't sequence measuring to see who is eligible to charge.

Actually, yes, you really should sequence measuring to see who is eligible to charge. It rarely (not willing to say never) matters, but it is technically an event that happens all at the same time and must be sequenced.

Note that I distinguish this from pre-measuring, which can be used in lieu of actual event-related measuring, but is actually difference (hence the term "pre"-measuring).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/03 18:56:16


Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

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 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Extra post to address your edit:
 doctortom wrote:
EDIT: Here, this might make it more clear. For the Charge phase, every unit within 12" is eligible to charge. You don't sequence measuring to each unit to determine whether it it within 12" and is eligible. The same thing applies here - you don't sequence until a spore mine is within 3" of an enemy unit. You don't sequence determining measuring to determine which ones are within 3", just like you don't sequence measuring to see who is eligible to charge.

Actually, yes, you really should sequence measuring to see who is eligible to charge. It rarely (not willing to say never) matters, but it is technically an event that happens all at the same time and must be sequenced.

Note that I distinguish this from pre-measuring, which can be used in lieu of actual event-related measuring, but is actually difference (hence the term "pre"-measuring).


This is why we should just agree to disagree. We have a fundamentally different viewpoint here if you're saying you should sequence measuring to determine who is eligible to charge. We're never going to resolve our different viewpoint with a fundamental difference in viewpoint like that. I don't see that measurement as part of the sequencing, and you do.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 19:00:37


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

I am always willing to agree to disagree, but the flaws in your logic are so clear it almost hurts, and I am disappointed you can't see them.

My comments in red:
"Yes, it applies at the end of every charge phase. It applies to each spore mine unit within 3" at the end of the phase. This is demonstrably not true, as having a unit within 3" is not a requirement to call the Floating Death rule. It is merely a requirement to follow the rest of it. How do you determine which ones it applies to? By seeing which units on the table have the rule... By measuring. No, measuring is merely part of how you complete the rule, not how you determine who is eligible. Anyone with the rule is eligible, as it is a "passive" ability, to use video-game terms. THEN, you go to sequencing No, this is too late; you would have had to sequence the order you want to resolve your Floating Deaths in, before you started to resolve them by measuring. IF there is more than one unit meeting the criteria for using the rule.As long as there is more than one unit on the board with the rule, then there is more than one unit meeting the criteria for using the rule. Because it's a passive rule. It may not do anything except under specific conditions, but it is "always on". You don't sequence getting to determine whether a rule applies. Yes you do, this is literally what you have to sequence: the rule abruptly applies to everyone simultaneously at a single point in time: the end of the charge phase. Regardless of whether or not enemy units are within 3" (though it doesn't do anything if they're not. This is the point that you keep missing."


This (the above) is a great breakdown of how it works.

Basically:
1) Is is the end of the Charge Phase? If yes Proceed to #2
2) Does any model have the Floating Death rule? If yes proceed to #3
3) Is there more than one Floating Death rule? If yes proceed to #4
4) Use sequencing rules. Go to #5
5) Does any model have the Floating Death rule that has not been resolved? If yes proceed to #6 if No, then proceed to the next phase.
6) Pick a model with the Floating Death rule and resolve it. Go to #5



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 19:05:31


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I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
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DeathReaper, do you require all your opponents to sequence measuring to all units at the beginning of the charge phase in order to determine if they are eligible to charge, or do you just let them do that and then sequence the eligible units?
   
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Falls Church, VA

 doctortom wrote:
DeathReaper, do you require all your opponents to sequence measuring to all units at the beginning of the charge phase in order to determine if they are eligible to charge, or do you just let them do that and then sequence the eligible units?


Not to steal DeathReaper's thunder, but I do let my opponents pre-measure their charges, and then skip the actual measuring for eligibility, as I generally think that the pre-measuring is accurate and there is no specific "reason" to force them to sequence the actual 'event' measuring.

If there was, however, they absolutely should, and the same goes for the event measuring here in this thread, where it absolutely does matter.

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in us
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Chicago, IL

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
DeathReaper, do you require all your opponents to sequence measuring to all units at the beginning of the charge phase in order to determine if they are eligible to charge, or do you just let them do that and then sequence the eligible units?


Not to steal DeathReaper's thunder, but I do let my opponents pre-measure their charges, and then skip the actual measuring for eligibility, as I generally think that the pre-measuring is accurate and there is no specific "reason" to force them to sequence the actual 'event' measuring.

If there was, however, they absolutely should, and the same goes for the event measuring here in this thread, where it absolutely does matter.

I agree with this 100%.

But it does not look like sequencing comes into play with the charge rules, so it does not matter.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 19:20:41


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
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 DeathReaper wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
DeathReaper, do you require all your opponents to sequence measuring to all units at the beginning of the charge phase in order to determine if they are eligible to charge, or do you just let them do that and then sequence the eligible units?


Not to steal DeathReaper's thunder, but I do let my opponents pre-measure their charges, and then skip the actual measuring for eligibility, as I generally think that the pre-measuring is accurate and there is no specific "reason" to force them to sequence the actual 'event' measuring.

If there was, however, they absolutely should, and the same goes for the event measuring here in this thread, where it absolutely does matter.

I agree with this 100%.

But it does not look like sequencing comes into play with the charge rules, so it does not matter.


You charge one unit at a time, and the effects of charging can effect what units can fire overwatch (especially with Tau). Also, people will know how many units they have within range before charging with the first unit instead of guessing how many. If you don't force sequencing on measuring there, you shouldn't be forcing sequencing on measuring for the spore mines.
   
Made in us
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Falls Church, VA

 doctortom wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
DeathReaper, do you require all your opponents to sequence measuring to all units at the beginning of the charge phase in order to determine if they are eligible to charge, or do you just let them do that and then sequence the eligible units?


Not to steal DeathReaper's thunder, but I do let my opponents pre-measure their charges, and then skip the actual measuring for eligibility, as I generally think that the pre-measuring is accurate and there is no specific "reason" to force them to sequence the actual 'event' measuring.

If there was, however, they absolutely should, and the same goes for the event measuring here in this thread, where it absolutely does matter.

I agree with this 100%.

But it does not look like sequencing comes into play with the charge rules, so it does not matter.


You charge one unit at a time, and the effects of charging can effect what units can fire overwatch (especially with Tau). Also, people will know how many units they have within range before charging with the first unit instead of guessing how many. If you don't force sequencing on measuring there, you shouldn't be forcing sequencing on measuring for the spore mines.


Pre-measuring is a thing. They can absolutely know if their units are within 12". They can know how far every single one of their units has to charge, down to the millimetre, if they want. Just like you can find out if a spore mine is within 3" or not. You just cant detonate it until you call the Floating Death rule, which pre-measuring does not (hence the pre-).

You are deluded if you think I somehow would deny my opponents the ability to pre-measure before declaring charges. Pre-measuring is explicitly allowed, but it is not part of sequencing. You can pre-measure for spore mines too, they just don't detonate unless you're actually calling the Floating Death rule. You can check if a spore mine has an enemy within 3" seventeen times at the end of the Charge Phase, if you really wanted to, but none of them will actually make it detonate.

And the sequence in which you charge absolutely matters, and includes measuring, so yes, I should be sequencing measuring. But, like I said before (not that you apparently bothered to read it), I tend to trust their pre-measurement and waive the need to measure again in sequence because it's convenient.

EDIT:
Sometimes, however, I do make them measure again, if, for example, one of their units charged and disrupted the charge of a second unit. I'm not trusting the pre-measuring there, because the route taken by said second unit has changed since it was last pre-measured. So yes, an example of me forcing my opponent to sequence measuring for charges.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 19:36:31


Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
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 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's pretty "obvious" my Conscripts have 20 wounds each. Prove me wrong.


Ah, the BCB equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and shouting, "LALALALALALALALALALALA!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 doctortom wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
It's fun being on the same side as Unit for a change

You cannot measure the 3" to apply floating death without applying the entirety of the floating death rule. There is nothing that allows to sequence half of a rule.


You are not sequencing half a rule, you are sequencing the rule after you have determined if the rule applies, but, as I told Unit, I don't see us convincing each other, so we should just agree to disagree on this and respect that we aren't going to change each other's minds on it.


The problem here is that you really have no opportunity to "discover" requirement of multiple sequencing. (Edit: apologies if this is already addressed, I replied immediately on seeing this post)

You check Spore Mine A. It's within 3", so you do NOT then check the next one, because you have to immediately resolve Mine A. As you continue across your line of Spore Mines, you do it the same way. As soon as you find one within 3", you don't continue checking for more, you immediately resolve it.

Really, you're forced to follow individual sequencing by nature of the rule "Floating Death" itself. Never is there any requirement to invoke the sequencing rules.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/04/03 19:55:15


 
   
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Unit, I did "bother to read it", so I don't really need you dripping condescension here. We can agree to disagree, but don't be copping an attitude like that.


Sequencing - "While playing Warhammer 40,,,, you'll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time" You still haven't provided proof that determining ir a rule needs resolution is part of the resolution requiring sequencing. I maintain that determining whether a rule applies is not part of sequencing, it's only the resolution of that rule. You see it differently. I see it as being hypocritical to allow "premeasuring" which is actually measuring without forcing sequencing in one case and forcing it on another. The "premeasurement" does affect things as I pointed out. You obviously don't see it that way. We're not going to agree on this, so we might as well accept that fact.
   
Made in ca
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 doctortom wrote:
Unit, I did "bother to read it", so I don't really need you dripping condescension here. We can agree to disagree, but don't be copping an attitude like that.


Sequencing - "While playing Warhammer 40,,,, you'll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time" You still haven't provided proof that determining ir a rule needs resolution is part of the resolution requiring sequencing. I maintain that determining whether a rule applies is not part of sequencing, it's only the resolution of that rule. You see it differently. I see it as being hypocritical to allow "premeasuring" which is actually measuring without forcing sequencing in one case and forcing it on another. The "premeasurement" does affect things as I pointed out. You obviously don't see it that way. We're not going to agree on this, so we might as well accept that fact.


But they don't happen at the same time, because you resolve one as soon as you find it. Not find one in range and then check the rest.
   
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Falls Church, VA

 doctortom wrote:
Unit, I did "bother to read it", so I don't really need you dripping condescension here. We can agree to disagree, but don't be copping an attitude like that.


Sequencing - "While playing Warhammer 40,,,, you'll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time" You still haven't provided proof that determining ir a rule needs resolution is part of the resolution requiring sequencing. I maintain that determining whether a rule applies is not part of sequencing, it's only the resolution of that rule. You see it differently. I see it as being hypocritical to allow "premeasuring" which is actually measuring without forcing sequencing in one case and forcing it on another. The "premeasurement" does affect things as I pointed out. You obviously don't see it that way. We're not going to agree on this, so we might as well accept that fact.


Alright, alright, let's accept that fact. I just wish you would understand what my point was, because I agree with your interpretation 100%. I just don't understand where the disconnect is between us, which I was trying to get at. I guess the disconnect is the difference between measuring-to-fulfill-a-rule and pre-measuring, but I'm sure you understand that difference as well. I don't get it.

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
 
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