Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

ian wrote:
I dont think legacy models should be valid for matched play unless it is agreed before hand . Its ment to be there for old armys not as a valid option , just look at the eldar hq with a reaper launcher or people still using stimulate injectors for tau

It feels like its just away to game the system i wonder if people will still be using the index in 3 years time

Sure I agree on that. The moment GW puts up rules for those in codexes. Removing valid models from game is not however acceptable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
Are Trueborn really not in the Codex?
That doesn't bode well for DE. I know Index units are currently allowed, but it is only a matter of time before GW updates all the faction to Codices and stops producing the Indexes.

Once they no longer sell the Indexes, why would they need to continue supporting that "Designer's note" Errata?
I get the feeling that they will either reverse/retract that Errata or ignore it for all future releases (probably leading to arguments as to whether it is still valid)

-

Why you think they would stop producing? Extra sales. GW loves it's money. Making players buy two books for their rules fits that and is even relatively generous by GW's standard by limiting it to just 2 books(plus 1+ chapter approved books of course)

Even if they do stop making the Indexes the rules don’t magically become invalid. Peeps should stop this “stop using models I don’t like you using” approach, tbh.

Many publications show pictures of kabalite trueborns. And they're just kabalite warrior models, often with a slightly different paint job to represent the higher rank.
In other words, the kabalite warriors currently sold by GW are official trueborn models. The argument about conversions, count-as and proxies are irrelevant for this unit.

At the moment, using the Index datasheet is perfectly legal, even if it's quite gamey (since GW removed Trueborns/Bloodbrides voluntarily).
I wouldn't be surprised if the DE FAQ removes the option though.

fresus wrote:
Many publications show pictures of kabalite trueborns. And they're just kabalite warrior models, often with a slightly different paint job to represent the higher rank.
In other words, the kabalite warriors currently sold by GW are official trueborn models. The argument about conversions, count-as and proxies are irrelevant for this unit.

At the moment, using the Index datasheet is perfectly legal, even if it's quite gamey (since GW removed Trueborns/Bloodbrides voluntarily).
I wouldn't be surprised if the DE FAQ removes the option though.

I don't think they'll remove them. Why would they?
And it's not gamey if GW literally said it's fine to do it. No caveat.

Using index datasheet for OOP models that don't have a codex entry is perfectly normal, it's how you keep playing with models you own that GW doesn't actively support anymore.

For Trueborns, GW decided to remove the entry, even when the models are still being sold. It's a gameplay-driven choice, instead of a model-driven choice. They consider Trueborns aren't the best thing for the game anymore. That's why I think using the Index entry is against the spirit of the new codex, and therefore gamey. It's also why I believe GW could choose to render the Trueborn/Bloodbrides index entry obsolete, to comply to their new stand on the matter.

ian wrote:
I agree its only a matter of time before index options are gone

Its nice that you think that, but its not going to happen. HQs on bikes and with Jump packs have been a thing in the game for years, and are not going to be brushed under the rug because GW does not want to spend the money to make a kit for a model that can easily be kit bashed. Nor are they gonna squat them. GW learned their lesson that dropping support for models that have had rules for decades is a dumb idea, IE Tomb kings and bertonia.

fresus wrote:
Using index datasheet for OOP models that don't have a codex entry is perfectly normal, it's how you keep playing with models you own that GW doesn't actively support anymore.

For Trueborns, GW decided to remove the entry, even when the models are still being sold. It's a gameplay-driven choice, instead of a model-driven choice. They consider Trueborns aren't the best thing for the game anymore. That's why I think using the Index entry is against the spirit of the new codex, and therefore gamey. It's also why I believe GW could choose to render the Trueborn/Bloodbrides index entry obsolete, to comply to their new stand on the matter.

Making a decision based on if they could be bothered to make a new set of models for Trueborn isn't considering whether they are the best thing for the game anymore, it's just dropping it to keep Chapterhouse and the like coming out with t Trueborn line. That doesn't mean the index entry is against the spirit of the game, given the spirit of the game had you using warriors for them that you could slightly modify to start with.

The true crime is not being bothered to even have an index entry for Vect (unless they have plans to bring him back in some new form)

fresus wrote:
For Trueborns, GW decided to remove the entry, even when the models are still being sold. It's a gameplay-driven choice, instead of a model-driven choice. They consider Trueborns aren't the best thing for the game anymore. That's why I think using the Index entry is against the spirit of the new codex, and therefore gamey. It's also why I believe GW could choose to render the Trueborn/Bloodbrides index entry obsolete, to comply to their new stand on the matter.

We don't know if it's a gameplay choice. You're simply assuming that. I believe it's because it's kinda hard to explain to a new player that no, he can't just grab a box of kabalites and build 2 squads of Trueborn. If you want to build a squad of Trueborns you'll need 4 (!) boxes of kabalites if you want to equip them with eg. all blasters - and that's why they removed these kind of units where possible.

It's not against the spirit of the game to use index entries. It's not "gamey" if there's a literal flowchart by the game designer that tells us how to do it and that it's OK. And last but not least this is YMDC.

And to think it all could have been taken care of easily if they had just put out a Trueborn Upgrade pack that had the blasters and whatever extra gubbins you wanted to include to indicate that they're Trueborn.

tneva82 wrote:
Why you think they would stop producing? Extra sales. GW loves it's money. Making players buy two books for their rules fits that and is even relatively generous by GW's standard by limiting it to just 2 books(plus 1+ chapter approved books of course)

Once everything is updated to a Codex, the cost to print the Indexes will actually be more than what GW will actually be getting for them.
Thus is makes good business sense to just stop producing them.

Once that happens, GW will effectively ignore they ever existed. The Designer's Commentary FAQ may then be simply removed from the Community site (as GW no longer needs it).
At that point is it still valid? That is the question I am posing. To which I am afraid the answer may be no, or at the very least so contested that it creates enough disagreement to not be worth trying.
Hopefully having the Index is enough to still use the un-updated stuff, but the community is fickle and who knows how accepted this will be.

-

 Galef wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Why you think they would stop producing? Extra sales. GW loves it's money. Making players buy two books for their rules fits that and is even relatively generous by GW's standard by limiting it to just 2 books(plus 1+ chapter approved books of course)

Once everything is updated to a Codex, the cost to print the Indexes will actually be more than what GW will actually be getting for them.
Thus is makes good business sense to just stop producing them.

Once that happens, GW will effectively ignore they ever existed. The Designer's Commentary FAQ may then be simply removed from the Community site (as GW no longer needs it).
At that point is it still valid? That is the question I am posing. To which I am afraid the answer may be no, or at the very least so contested that it creates enough disagreement to not be worth trying.
Hopefully having the Index is enough to still use the un-updated stuff, but the community is fickle and who knows how accepted this will be.

-

The actual printing process isn't really all that expensive though. All they have to do is stockpile it (which costs money, too), and as long as they're getting sold in a reasonable timeframe it will make money and sense to reprint them.

 Galef wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Why you think they would stop producing? Extra sales. GW loves it's money. Making players buy two books for their rules fits that and is even relatively generous by GW's standard by limiting it to just 2 books(plus 1+ chapter approved books of course)

Once everything is updated to a Codex, the cost to print the Indexes will actually be more than what GW will actually be getting for them.
Thus is makes good business sense to just stop producing them.

Once that happens, GW will effectively ignore they ever existed. The Designer's Commentary FAQ may then be simply removed from the Community site (as GW no longer needs it).
At that point is it still valid? That is the question I am posing. To which I am afraid the answer may be no, or at the very least so contested that it creates enough disagreement to not be worth trying.
Hopefully having the Index is enough to still use the un-updated stuff, but the community is fickle and who knows how accepted this will be.

-

They can keep digital versions around and still let people use them that way. Then, they won't have to worry about physical production costs on it.

nekooni wrote:
....as long as they're getting sold in a reasonable timeframe it will make money and sense to reprint them.

But that is my point. If no one buys then anymore (because why would you if your Codex is out?) than they will NOT get sold in a reasonable timeframe.
Although, Doctortom makes a good point about digital copies.

I still think the Indexes will be phased out, it just may not happen for a while.

-

My guess will be they will make indexes non-matched play only for 8.5 or 9th, along with the squatting of non-primaris marines.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
My guess will be they will make indexes non-matched play only for 8.5 or 9th, along with the squatting of non-primaris marines.

Sure, they'll certainly squat regular marines. Because they hate money. /s

Seeing what happens with the tau stim injectors will be intressting

ian wrote:
I dont think legacy models should be valid for matched play unless it is agreed before hand . Its ment to be there for old armys not as a valid option , just look at the eldar hq with a reaper launcher or people still using stimulate injectors for tau

It feels like its just away to game the system i wonder if people will still be using the index in 3 years time

I will still be using the Index for my autarch models and dreadnoughts that are 100% GW parts until such time as the indexes are replaced with some other sort of legacy update or ruleset.

if someone has modeled and painted a unit to represent a unit they had for 3+ editions, and may not even have any matching kabalites (it could be they converted incubi, I've seen that done enough times) forcing them to play them as warriors seems poor sport. Especially considering warriors are incredibly better value anyway.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
My guess will be they will make indexes non-matched play only for 8.5 or 9th, along with the squatting of non-primaris marines.

Non-Primaris Marines already squat, it’s one of the largest complaints about their pose. ;-)

Really, the biggest question is whether with standard Kabs now costing less and getting an extra blaster per ten, and with Scourges now dropping down to cost the same as Trueborn, are Trueborn really worth playing? I mean, the loss of Trueborn just really doesn't actually strike me as that big a deal; there are other ways to accomplish the same thing.

You're thinking rules wise exclusively. People have converted trueborn squads and want to play them.

 Galef wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Why you think they would stop producing? Extra sales. GW loves it's money. Making players buy two books for their rules fits that and is even relatively generous by GW's standard by limiting it to just 2 books(plus 1+ chapter approved books of course)

Once everything is updated to a Codex, the cost to print the Indexes will actually be more than what GW will actually be getting for them.
Thus is makes good business sense to just stop producing them.

Once that happens, GW will effectively ignore they ever existed. The Designer's Commentary FAQ may then be simply removed from the Community site (as GW no longer needs it).
At that point is it still valid? That is the question I am posing. To which I am afraid the answer may be no, or at the very least so contested that it creates enough disagreement to not be worth trying.
Hopefully having the Index is enough to still use the un-updated stuff, but the community is fickle and who knows how accepted this will be.

-

Eh no production cost isn't going to go up the roof suddenly(it stays same) and of course even if paper to produce index(but not codex) would somehow go up they can up the price.

GW loves money. Why sell 1 book to player when you can force them to buy 2 books? And then 3rd or 4th or 5th with chapter approved books

Trueborn are useless now. I've also converted 4 dudes into blasterborn but I guess I'm going to use them as kabalites with blasters.

Also the archon can't take a blaster anymore and that was a very popular conversion since the model is ugly in his pose and the blaster was a must take for him. Again, I'm going to use him as an archon with blast pistol, I won't definitely break and re-assemble a painted model made of 100% GW plastic.

You can still take Blaster archons. They are still a good choice.

 Blackie wrote:
Trueborn are useless now. I've also converted 4 dudes into blasterborn but I guess I'm going to use them as kabalites with blasters.

Also the archon can't take a blaster anymore and that was a very popular conversion since the model is ugly in his pose and the blaster was a must take for him. Again, I'm going to use him as an archon with blast pistol, I won't definitely break and re-assemble a painted model made of 100% GW plastic.

You can still take Blaster Archons as per the designers commentary flowchart. No guessing how long that will last though.

If I take an archon with blaster do I have to use the index blaster? Because the codex one is different.

 Blackie wrote:
If I take an archon with blaster do I have to use the index blaster? Because the codex one is different.

The flowchart explains it all. You use the codex rules and points, but use the index options.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
If I take an archon with blaster do I have to use the index blaster? Because the codex one is different.

The flowchart explains it all. You use the codex rules and points, but use the index options.

Agreed.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
If I take an archon with blaster do I have to use the index blaster? Because the codex one is different.

The flowchart explains it all. You use the codex rules and points, but use the index options.

for archons yes. truborns still use their old datasheet. meaning they'll only do d3 damage
the flowchart asks if there is a datasheet for your model. the answer for trueborns is NO. so you have to use the index version (in which blasters do d3 dmg but cost 2 points less)

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf
last page

RedNoak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
If I take an archon with blaster do I have to use the index blaster? Because the codex one is different.

The flowchart explains it all. You use the codex rules and points, but use the index options.

for archons yes. truborns still use their old datasheet. meaning they'll only do d3 damage
the flowchart asks if there is a datasheet for your model. the answer for trueborns is NO. so you have to use the index version (in which blasters do d3 dmg but cost 2 points less)

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf
last page

Read a little further.

Alternatively, if you wished to field an Autarch model with a banshee mask, you would use the Autarch datasheet from Codex: Craftworlds alongside the appropriate wargear option from Index: Xenos 1.
Codex: Craftworlds contains rules and points costs for all your Autarch’s wargear, so you would use these in place of the ones from Index: Xenos 1.

You use the rules and points costs for Blasters from the codex, since they are newer and different.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Read a little further.

Alternatively, if you wished to field an Autarch model with a banshee mask, you would use the Autarch datasheet from Codex: Craftworlds alongside the appropriate wargear option from Index: Xenos 1.
Codex: Craftworlds contains rules and points costs for all your Autarch’s wargear, so you would use these in place of the ones from Index: Xenos 1.

You use the rules and points costs for Blasters from the codex, since they are newer and different.

nope because its a flowchart... you will never come to that part with trueborns, because they dont have a datasheet in the codex. you can only come to that part of the chart if the model in question has an entry in the codex

EDIT:

ahh never mind i see it now its the text above the flowchart

EDIT2:

hmm nevermind the 2nd^^

Use the following flowchart to determine which datasheet to use for your models. Note that regardless of
which datasheet you use, if you are playing a matched play game, or a game that uses a points limit, you
should always use the most recently published points for your models and their weapons and wargear.

yes you play with updated points but the datasheet remains... still d3 damage