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With the new codex this unit (Trueborn) has been cut, can it still be played using the designers commentary rules?

Drager wrote:
With the new codex this unit (Trueborn) has been cut, can it still be played using the designers commentary rules?

Of course.

Really BCB? As I understand it there are no Trueborn models, rather DE players would convert them from Warrior models. So that means that yes, the models have rules in the codex, as warriors, and you would play them as of such from the designers commentary.

Of course, I could be completely wrong about this.

Jake what they are asking is that if there are in fact no Trueborn dataslates in the codex, can they use the Index version.


The designers commentary states that they can, with the updated points costs of weapons and wargear in the new codex.

Eihnlazer, you should reread the chart, the first question is "does your model have a datasheet in a codex?" not "did your datasheet make it into the codex?"

If I convert a model from a tactical marine into a Captain on Bike it's no longer a tactical marine model. It's a captain on bike model. Same with trueborn.

Nekooni, conversions, regardless of how good they are, are not the model that represents the datasheet. It is a proxy for the real thing regardless of how much you change it.

If you want to play a converted mini as a proxy then discuss with your opponent - heck, I run a converted Night Bringer as the Changling sometimes, but recognise that it is a proxy and have the real model as backup in case my opponent has problems with it.

Seeing as how some datasheets do not have a GW model to represent them and must be proxied, this is not actually true 100% of the time.



You should of course let your opponent know what you are using, but it would be pretty obtuse for someone to tell me they aren't going to let me use my Vertus Praetors as Shield captains because they came out of a Vertus Praetors box.

I think, JakeSiren, your argument is missing a rule that tells us the contents of named box sets necessarily must represent their corresponding datasheet.

That aside, your argument is quite problematic when you consider conversions and kitbashing.

Say I use the legs, arms and head from a Space Marine Assault Squad box set with the torso, backpack and grav pistol from a Space Marine Tactical Squad box set to represent my Sternguard Sergeant with a more dynamic pose. Am I not allowed to do so, and should I somehow instead refer to the datasheet for a Tactical Squad, or Assault Squad?

I'm sorry, but what you're suggesting is nonsense.

There's no rules in game what model are to be used for datasheet. You can use my little ponies for space marines unless tournament has house rules saying otherwise if you so prefer

Ok, let's assume that we can use the datasheets this way.

Let's look at a similar situation with the Chaos Daemons codex. In the index you had the "Herald of Nurgle" datasheet. When the codex came out the datasheet was removed, and was replaced with the "Poxbringer" datasheet - there are no differences between the models except the relabelling.

Are you saying that the rules allow me to bring both a Herald of Nurgle, and a Poxbringer? Even though the models are identical? If not, what if I put a new hat on a Poxbringer model and called it a Herald of Nurgle proxy, does that suddenly become OK?

You can use the index version of trueborn.

Alternatively you can play your models as kabalite warriors. In fact the trueborn are actually kabalites with more special/heavy weapons, their aesthetics is the same one since there were and there are no officials models of them.


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JakeSiren wrote:
Nekooni, conversions, regardless of how good they are, are not the model that represents the datasheet. It is a proxy for the real thing regardless of how much you change it.

If you want to play a converted mini as a proxy then discuss with your opponent - heck, I run a converted Night Bringer as the Changling sometimes, but recognise that it is a proxy and have the real model as backup in case my opponent has problems with it.

Not at all. A proxy is a razorback modeled with twin lascannon played as a tank with twin assault cannon. To play a specific original model as something else (like the example you made) is also a proxy. Unless maybe you're downgrading your hero to a standard HQ like using Urien for a standard haemonculus or Ghazghkull as a standard warboss in megarmor.

Conversions can be 100% WYSIWYG if done properly. Just keep the same dimensions and wargear of the original model, and you couldn't call it a proxy.

JakeSiren wrote:
Ok, let's assume that we can use the datasheets this way.

Let's look at a similar situation with the Chaos Daemons codex. In the index you had the "Herald of Nurgle" datasheet. When the codex came out the datasheet was removed, and was replaced with the "Poxbringer" datasheet - there are no differences between the models except the relabelling.

Are you saying that the rules allow me to bring both a Herald of Nurgle, and a Poxbringer? Even though the models are identical? If not, what if I put a new hat on a Poxbringer model and called it a Herald of Nurgle proxy, does that suddenly become OK?

If you take a look at the Plague Bearer box, it states the kit contains enough parts to build a Herald of Nurgle.

Index is still legal to use for the Legacy stuff.

I dont think legacy models should be valid for matched play unless it is agreed before hand . Its ment to be there for old armys not as a valid option , just look at the eldar hq with a reaper launcher or people still using stimulate injectors for tau

It feels like its just away to game the system i wonder if people will still be using the index in 3 years time

All my archons have Blasters and I have dracons (official model from back in the day) which can only be taken in Trueborn squads is this what you see as intended use or gaming the system?

Conversions are not proxies. That a silly argument. Counts-as, perhaps, but not proxy. Conversions can be entirely wysiwyg but a proxy is something being used as something it is not.

My Azrael conversion is not a proxy, he’s a conversion fully representing the old Azrael model in plastic.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
Ok, let's assume that we can use the datasheets this way.

Let's look at a similar situation with the Chaos Daemons codex. In the index you had the "Herald of Nurgle" datasheet. When the codex came out the datasheet was removed, and was replaced with the "Poxbringer" datasheet - there are no differences between the models except the relabelling.

Are you saying that the rules allow me to bring both a Herald of Nurgle, and a Poxbringer? Even though the models are identical? If not, what if I put a new hat on a Poxbringer model and called it a Herald of Nurgle proxy, does that suddenly become OK?

If you take a look at the Plague Bearer box, it states the kit contains enough parts to build a Herald of Nurgle.

Index is still legal to use for the Legacy stuff.

Huh, that is really confusing. I wonder if tournaments will be OK with this? I'm personally liking the idea of s5 Pink Horror shooting.

I think gaming the system is when people use the index as an option and buy or convert new models, rather then a way to use exsisting models they have

JakeSiren wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
Ok, let's assume that we can use the datasheets this way.

Let's look at a similar situation with the Chaos Daemons codex. In the index you had the "Herald of Nurgle" datasheet. When the codex came out the datasheet was removed, and was replaced with the "Poxbringer" datasheet - there are no differences between the models except the relabelling.

Are you saying that the rules allow me to bring both a Herald of Nurgle, and a Poxbringer? Even though the models are identical? If not, what if I put a new hat on a Poxbringer model and called it a Herald of Nurgle proxy, does that suddenly become OK?

If you take a look at the Plague Bearer box, it states the kit contains enough parts to build a Herald of Nurgle.

Index is still legal to use for the Legacy stuff.

Huh, that is really confusing. I wonder if tournaments will be OK with this? I'm personally liking the idea of s5 Pink Horror shooting.

Its not as good as you think it is. its still pink horror shooting.

Also, to answer, if im understanding this thread right. "Can i use a kit bashed model to represent a unit thats not with in my codex but is with in the index." The answer is yes. The best example of this is the space marine librarian, they have not made a model of this unit ever since i have been playing back in 5th ed. It can only be made via kit bash, which i use all the time for dark angels.


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ian wrote:
I dont think legacy models should be valid for matched play unless it is agreed before hand . Its ment to be there for old armys not as a valid option , just look at the eldar hq with a reaper launcher or people still using stimulate injectors for tau

It feels like its just away to game the system i wonder if people will still be using the index in 3 years time

What do you consider a legacy model?

ian wrote:
I dont think legacy models should be valid for matched play unless it is agreed before hand . Its ment to be there for old armys not as a valid option , just look at the eldar hq with a reaper launcher or people still using stimulate injectors for tau

It feels like its just away to game the system i wonder if people will still be using the index in 3 years time

If GW meant for it to be only usable outside of matched play they could simply say so. That they don't is a pretty clear sign, isn't it?

They arent in the core rules or codex, and i doubt any new player would be buying an index and a codex. Give this a year or so and i doubt you will beable to buy a new index

They are ment as a way to still support gamers who have armys, if it was an option that they wanted to include then why didnt they ?

I think the stimulante injectors show that option wasnt intend to remain , but because of legacy support you can now have both the new stratagem and old support system

ian wrote:
They arent in the core rules or codex, and i doubt any new player would be buying an index and a codex. Give this a year or so and i doubt you will beable to buy a new index

They are ment as a way to still support gamers who have armys, if it was an option that they wanted to include then why didnt they ?

I mean, this isn't unheard of. Magic (the CCG) has officially-endorsed game types where you have the option to use cards that they don't even sell anymore. Actually they don't sell most of the cards that people are using in these formats anymore (not counting basic lands). There are even game types with meta-relevant cards that the makers have promised they will never sell again.

Surely if you're right and GW wants people to stop using something in Matched Play, then at some point they'll say that. Instead, they keep saying that you can use this stuff, and they're not even de facto banning lots of these things by intentionally over-pricing them the way they've sometimes done (like with Conscripts and Razorwing Flocks).

I don't see why it's relevant what a new player is likely to do. If they stick around they'll learn pretty quickly that there are legal units outside of the codices. Like Forgeworld.

I dont think gw wants to say you cannot use your old models because of the reactions,

But i dont think they intend them to be options like the codex otherwise they would have included them

, an old legacy book that is only valid for a couple of units ;is not the same as forge world

it will be intressting to see the tau faq on stim injectors

ian wrote:
I dont think gw wants to say you cannot use your old models because of the reactions,

But i dont think they intend them to be options like the codex otherwise they would have included them

, an old legacy book that is only valid for a couple of units ;is not the same as forge world

it will be intressting to see the tau faq on stim injectors

They're reducing the Codex content to stuff they still actively sell (mostly) so that new players aren't like "I'd like a box of Kabalite trueborns" "Sorry, we only have regular kabalites, and you'll need 4 boxes just to equip a single trueborn squad properly". Even GW knows that's not a good answer.

Same thing with Chaplin's and libs on a bike, they have been in the game for YEARS but never made a model for them, aside from the Chaplin. And that HQ was very important to white scares and ravenwing.

I would not call them legacy units, but rather advanced units because they require multiple kits or kit bashing to make look good. But nothing is stopping you from using a space marine bike, paining the rider like a lib or Chaplin and calling it good.

Are Trueborn really not in the Codex?
That doesn't bode well for DE. I know Index units are currently allowed, but it is only a matter of time before GW updates all the faction to Codices and stops producing the Indexes.

Once they no longer sell the Indexes, why would they need to continue supporting that "Designer's note" Errata?
I get the feeling that they will either reverse/retract that Errata or ignore it for all future releases (probably leading to arguments as to whether it is still valid)

-

But basic kabalites are super cheap and awesome. Why not just take 2x5 with Blasters instead?

It's not like with new prices for flyers you need so many lances in troops anyway.

JakeSiren wrote:
Eihnlazer, you should reread the chart, the first question is "does your model have a datasheet in a codex?" not "did your datasheet make it into the codex?"

And it doesn't say that the model can't be one that you converted to be a Trueborn in a previous edition.

I agree its only a matter of time before index options are gone

 doctortom wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
Eihnlazer, you should reread the chart, the first question is "does your model have a datasheet in a codex?" not "did your datasheet make it into the codex?"

And it doesn't say that the model can't be one that you converted to be a Trueborn in a previous edition.

I'm assuming that you are making a point in general as I agreed with the premise that the datasheet is still legal.

To be honest, the chart doesn't even factor into the discussion - the datasheet has not been invalidated, nor has it been superseded. So until either one happens, you can continue using the index version as is.