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2018/04/15 09:33:49
Subject: Codex releases and why we are seeing subfactions as a full codex release.
Corrode wrote: Private sector company chooses strategy which maximises revenue
Nerds baffled
GW has been skimming by for years on their video game royalties and mediocre online sales, they are hardly maximizing profit from using shady tactics, and no one is baffled, hence the issues people have.
"Skimming by" is hardly true since even when they were doing really badly a few years ago they were still the unchallenged top dog in the miniature war gaming industry and since 8th and Rowntree took over they're quickly regaining the trust and money that Kirby destroyed . Your personal feelings aside about how they made their money, the fact is they still made it.
On topic: Peregrine bitching again. It feels like the people who complain about the codex releases keep forgetting they overhauled the entire system and need to rerelease everything. Not to mention that the people complaining have the memory of a goldfish. If Kirby was still in charge we probably would have only seen about 3 updated codexes by this point (probably Space Marines, Chaos Marines and Eldar) and it would be unbalanced as all hell because remember, they're were a miniature company not a game company. Not to mention you'd be waiting 6 months for that first Space Marine FAQ and it might not even all the questions you had.
So yeah, I don't really care about the people whining about GW not sticking to a schedule. The world doesn't run on YOUR timeline and what we have now is a lot better than what was before. Here's an experiment, when the Space Wolf codex DOES come out, don't use it till 2020 and don't apply the FAQ until 6 months later. Then you can get that authentic 2014 GW experience that was so great that you linger around the forums like a party guest that was only invited by obligation, as you spend the whole night complaining that the music is too loud and its too crowded.
Wow, what do you know, a delusional white knight that is using the,"it is better than it used to be" argument, and thinks that makes everything peachy keen. That is an extremely frail argument, and if they are so pressed to rush out codex for the new ruleset, wouldn't it be better to wait on the new elite army choices until after the core armies were out, so they could really focus and get them right? Instead they rush them out as quickly as the indexes and 8th edition rules and everyone has to rely, not on the books they purchased, but the FAQ that came out later. Extremely skewed logic, but it is all okay, because, "it is better than it was".
2018/04/15 09:34:14
Subject: Codex releases and why we are seeing subfactions as a full codex release.
CelticKodiak wrote: With this information, if GW is just dropping new Codexs for subfactions so they can sell more books/models, fine, it is a business move, not a super intelligent one, but everyone makes mistakes. Imperial Knights should have been rolled into Admech and Adeptus Custodes should have been a joint Codex under Talons of the Emperor with the Sisters of Silence. Instead we are getting full priced Codexs for subfactions with half the pages, and honestly a third of the work, since most of the Custodes and Sisters models have been out for a while. Then there is the Genestealer Cult, which is essentially IG models with Genestealer heads and arms, straight up Genestealers, and some industrial vehicles. The only thing the Genestealer Cult allows is the the ability to ally with IG when playing Tyranids, but could have still all been in the Tyranids codex.
The amount of this the the is wrong is rather staggering:
1. Imperial Knights: Most Knights are not Admech. Even the Admech Knights are not Admech. I was surprised they were in the Adeptus Mechanicus Codex at all. And with them adding at least two new models, they are starting to look like an honest to god Codex rather than a single Datasheet.
2. Custodes and Sisters: Really? There was 1 Custodes Kit/Unit prior to the release of the Codex. There is 1 Sisters of Silence Kit, divided over 3 units (aka weapon options). That wouldn't have been much of a Codex.
3. Genestealer Cult: I'm no Genestealer Cult player, but there is a lot more to them than Adeptus Custodes or Imperial Knights.
This seems to be a lot of hate on factions you just don't like.
1. Even if they add 2 more units, that hardly makes an entire, full priced codex worth it, and if they add even 6 more, then you are still running into their big units costing 1/4th your armies cost at 2000 points.
2. Countless amounts of lore sets the Custodes and Sisters of Silence as the Talons of the Emperor, as the Custodes regularly worked with the Sisters over any other group. The Custodes were the muscle, the Sisters were the anti-psyker the Custodes couldn't manage. Putting the Sisters in the codex of the Custodes, and calling it the Talons of the Emperor makes all the sense, and splitting them into 2 separate codex makes the least amount of sense other than base greed.
3. Most of their units are Genestealers or some mix of them, the only truly unique models are some vehicles and the mutants, past that, they could have been in the Tyranid codex as a subfaction with no issues, but again, gotta get all that money they are raking in for the extra codex armies. Not to mention, where are all the Genestealer Cult armies? Oh, they barely exist because their units are lackluster and unless you build mostly Genestealers, the army lacks severely.
Nothing I have said points to me hating factions, it is simply using common sense to out GWs greed about launching extra codex that aren't needed, and create sub par armies unless you soup, requiring you to buy multiple codex. I actually like the Custodes, they are cool as gak, but you are running into them lacking any troop units worth taking for points, and most people just spam the bikes. Having troops that can deny psykers would be an obvious add, as again, they go together, not just in lore, but in basic gameplay, they complete each other.
1. How many entries should a codex or army have for it to be "worth a codex" because if you strip out the marine units from space wolves I'm pretty sure they don't have that many in reality.
2. Refer to point 1, they did a good job fleshing out custodes and whilst yes they maybe could have gone down that route and it would be credible, clearly the sisters are intended for use elsewhere. It would also have undermined the elite best of the best feel of the custodes book.
3. You really need to re-examine the stealer cults as there is far more to them than IG with stealer arms. It'd be like saying space wolves are marines with fur (which they are in reality admittedly). You can't belittle the options and design of other factions whilst turning a blind eye to the ones you like.
Moreover you claim they spread their resources and efforts thinly in the name of greed. If you put all these extra units into joint codex as you suggest, the rules team still have to do the same volume of work, but on tighter deadlines. Those units don't cease to need writing just because they're in fewer places, bigger books = bigger job.
1. If you strip out the Primaris choices from SW, then the SW would still have more and unique choices than most other armies. They have a ton of HQ models, 3 different unique dreadnoughts, a unique flyer and transport, their own marine squad, terminators, heavy weapons team, jetpack units, fast attack option, and a specialty melee unit that is quite powerful as it is. Not only that, all of their units look unique to their faction, not just some different colors, but straight up unique look. The SW would have more than enough to thrive, and do so, without needing the base SM units, other factions don't, as they are missing either large chunks of an army, or one or two options that would round them out perfectly. Adeptus Mechanicus transports anyone?
2. Sisters have 3 different squad choices from the same box, and a Rhino, hardly enough to make a new codex for, even if they add an HQ choice and some elite and fast attack units that exist nowhere in lore. But as GW has proven over and over, they can create and forget lore at will to suit their needs. Talons of the Emperor would have been far more popular, as you would have solid elite units, backed up by a solid anti-psyker troop choice, and a cheaper heavy support/transport. You would lose the anti-vehicle capability of the Land Raider, but that would be the choice you make, and all they had to do was create an HQ option for the SoS, and a few other units, and roll them into the Custodes codex under Talons of the Emperor. Kind of tired of repeating myself on this obvious oversight of 40k lore that GW made, yet decided to forget to make 2 tiny, incomplete codex, instead of one, well rounded one. Going away from Talons of the Emperor, there are troops choices for Custodes that existed in 7th, that weren't added to 8th for no reason whatsoever, ranged options for the Custodian Guard and Allarus Custodians that would have very easily rounded out the Custodes much more than they are now, look up the Sagittarum Guard and tell me why they aren't an obvious choice for the Custodes codex.
3.I believe I answered this in point 1, SW are unique, and barely look like normal marines, so them having a separate codex makes sense, as they are more than just a change of chapter tactics and color scheme. All I have seen of Genestealer Cults in the extremely few batreps I have seen them in are a bunch of Genestealers, the new GC vehicles, and some shooty units. These are batreps trying to show how cool and different the GC is without souping into Tyranids or IG, but more than a few were grabbing IG vehicles to supplement the army. None of those batreps ended in GC victory, even though one was against a brand new Custodes player, which is not great against large concentrations of units unless you spam bikes, which is another issue for another day. I have seen every other army win in some way, but GC has always been a complete loss because they weren't thought through, and don't have the units to support themselves without souping, and the GC are not elite, so building a complete GC army should be something doable, but as it stands, really isn't.
Space wolves have a slew of special characters, thunderwolves, wolves, wulfen, shield dreads, 2 flyers and a couple of unique wargear options. The rest of the range is basically standard marine kits switch aesthetic differences or minor rules tweaks.
They're a fun army and look cool no doubt, but there's no reason they couldn't fit into the marine codex. When I started in 3rd ed wolves were a single upgrade sprue, a handful of characters and supplement for space marines that was under 100 pages. Imagine if in that time they put the same effort into custodes who are really under a year old vs the 15 years of progress wolves have had.
If your sole knowledge of a faction is a tiny amount of battle reports then you need to go read up a little before declaring them unfit to exist.
2018/04/15 09:37:30
Subject: Codex releases and why we are seeing subfactions as a full codex release.
Corrode wrote: Private sector company chooses strategy which maximises revenue
Nerds baffled
GW has been skimming by for years on their video game royalties and mediocre online sales, they are hardly maximizing profit from using shady tactics, and no one is baffled, hence the issues people have.
"Skimming by" is hardly true since even when they were doing really badly a few years ago they were still the unchallenged top dog in the miniature war gaming industry and since 8th and Rowntree took over they're quickly regaining the trust and money that Kirby destroyed . Your personal feelings aside about how they made their money, the fact is they still made it.
On topic: Peregrine bitching again. It feels like the people who complain about the codex releases keep forgetting they overhauled the entire system and need to rerelease everything. Not to mention that the people complaining have the memory of a goldfish. If Kirby was still in charge we probably would have only seen about 3 updated codexes by this point (probably Space Marines, Chaos Marines and Eldar) and it would be unbalanced as all hell because remember, they're were a miniature company not a game company. Not to mention you'd be waiting 6 months for that first Space Marine FAQ and it might not even all the questions you had.
So yeah, I don't really care about the people whining about GW not sticking to a schedule. The world doesn't run on YOUR timeline and what we have now is a lot better than what was before. Here's an experiment, when the Space Wolf codex DOES come out, don't use it till 2020 and don't apply the FAQ until 6 months later. Then you can get that authentic 2014 GW experience that was so great that you linger around the forums like a party guest that was only invited by obligation, as you spend the whole night complaining that the music is too loud and its too crowded.
Wow, what do you know, a delusional white knight that is using the,"it is better than it used to be" argument, and thinks that makes everything peachy keen. That is an extremely frail argument, and if they are so pressed to rush out codex for the new ruleset, wouldn't it be better to wait on the new elite army choices until after the core armies were out, so they could really focus and get them right? Instead they rush them out as quickly as the indexes and 8th edition rules and everyone has to rely, not on the books they purchased, but the FAQ that came out later. Extremely skewed logic, but it is all okay, because, "it is better than it was".
I love that having a reasoned opinion based on a wider view of the situation instead of kneejerk outrage because things didn't go MY way makes me a white knight.
2018/04/15 09:37:59
Subject: Codex releases and why we are seeing subfactions as a full codex release.
Banville wrote: Bringing them back was both good for business and a tip of the hat to all the old dudes like myself who missed the whole creepy, insidious Lovecraftian side of a Tyranid invasion as opposed to the Starship Troopers 'wave of bugs' side.
The problem is that "creepy Lovecraftian horror", while interesting to some people and a valid element of the setting, is not really compatible with 40k's large-scale battlefield combat. It would be great in a small-party RPG context, but in 40k it results in the army being a mix of IG and Tyranid units with some stupid and un-fluffy vehicles thrown in to justify having a separate codex. A one-line statement in the Tyranid codex saying "you can take genestealers in your IG army and all infantry units gain the <HIVE FLEET> keyword/rules instead of <REGIMENT>" would accomplish the same end result without having to buy an entire additional codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote: Space wolves have a slew of special characters, thunderwolves, wolves, wulfen, shield dreads, 2 flyers and a couple of unique wargear options.
And the thunderwolves and flyers are awful ideas that never should have existed. Remove the Matt Ward era stupidity from the product line and you're left with an army that is just another space marine army with <SPACE WOLVES> chapter tactics and some characters.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/15 09:40:02
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2018/04/15 09:41:12
Subject: Codex releases and why we are seeing subfactions as a full codex release.
Banville wrote: Bringing them back was both good for business and a tip of the hat to all the old dudes like myself who missed the whole creepy, insidious Lovecraftian side of a Tyranid invasion as opposed to the Starship Troopers 'wave of bugs' side.
The problem is that "creepy Lovecraftian horror", while interesting to some people and a valid element of the setting, is not really compatible with 40k's large-scale battlefield combat. It would be great in a small-party RPG context, but in 40k it results in the army being a mix of IG and Tyranid units with some stupid and un-fluffy vehicles thrown in to justify having a separate codex. A one-line statement in the Tyranid codex saying "you can take genestealers in your IG army and all infantry units gain the <HIVE FLEET> keyword/rules instead of <REGIMENT>" would accomplish the same end result without having to buy an entire additional codex.
Stifling their own creativity and ability to expand the game really isn't a positive mindset though. The same is true of a large volume of the armies we have now. There are more stealer cultists on a planet than there are custodes in the universe for example.
I do agree on the wolves/ward front. I do like the dreads and arguably the flyers at least are unique if weird, but they're what we have now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/15 09:44:04
2018/04/15 09:41:56
Subject: Codex releases and why we are seeing subfactions as a full codex release.
hollow one wrote: I don't even understand the argument. What, you'd rather no subfaction codex and just less effort be put in for subfactions? Squeeze em in to bigger books.
Why?
The only reason I can think of is waiting time. But if you want the same quality of content then they'll probably take just as long (except they'll put it in the full faction codex), and codexes will come out slower because they are bigger.... Have you thought this through?
I have, but apparently you are struggling with it, if GW is so pressed to get all the new codex out with the new 8th edition rules, why release new armies in incomplete codex before you release the core armies that don't really change all that much model-wise? They could have gotten out all the core armies, made the changes to them for 8th, then sat down and really focused on the elite armies, going through the lore, and rounding them out, including the Grey Knights. That isn't really asking much, as most people weren't even expecting the Custodes as early as they did, and no one expected the Imperial Knight codex until it was announced. Yet IK units are in the Adeptus Mechanicus codex already, but another codex is required because they are going to add the minimal amount of models needed to have a small, elite army that, if anyone wants to make a pure army, will spam one unit.
That to me, sounds like most of the people posting rebuttals haven't thought any of this through, but neither has GW.
2018/04/15 09:42:35
Subject: Codex releases and why we are seeing subfactions as a full codex release.
Amishprn86 wrote: If you are made b.c you need 2 codei to play 2 armies that you think should be 1, well not everyone feels they should be 1. Thats like saying just put all the SM in 1 codex, that codex will now cost you 150$, and if you play Space Wolves? Well you still need to pay that 150$. And you most likely will have less lore for your Space Wolves due to limited space, b.c no one wants to carry about a 300 page rule book. 2 50 pages is still better.
Or all of the space marine armies go into a single codex that costs the same $50 as any other codex, because a codex doesn't need to cost an extra $100 to cover a page or two of additional chapter tactics.
Also, who cares about the lore? Modern codices suck for this. If you want the lore for your army buy a used copy of a codex from 5th edition or earlier.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote: Stifling their own creativity and ability to expand the game really isn't a positive mindset though.
Only if you put it in those terms. I prefer to think of it it as avoiding rules bloat and emphasizing quality of rules over quantity of rules. You just have to get over the idea that every fluff concept needs to have a specific rule to represent it. For example, genestealer cults can be represented just fine by modeling your infantry squads with some extra Tyranid elements and taking the Catachan doctrine for improved melee strength. It's still a genestealer cult army even if it doesn't come from Codex: Genestealer Cult.
The same is true of a large volume of the armies we have now. There are more stealer cultists on a planet than there are custodes in the universe for example.
Sure. I don't think custodes should ever have been created. They aren't a relevant army in the kind of wars that 40k represents.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/15 09:46:11
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2018/04/15 09:48:11
Subject: Codex releases and why we are seeing subfactions as a full codex release.
Corrode wrote: Private sector company chooses strategy which maximises revenue
Nerds baffled
GW has been skimming by for years on their video game royalties and mediocre online sales, they are hardly maximizing profit from using shady tactics, and no one is baffled, hence the issues people have.
"Skimming by" is hardly true since even when they were doing really badly a few years ago they were still the unchallenged top dog in the miniature war gaming industry and since 8th and Rowntree took over they're quickly regaining the trust and money that Kirby destroyed . Your personal feelings aside about how they made their money, the fact is they still made it.
On topic: Peregrine bitching again. It feels like the people who complain about the codex releases keep forgetting they overhauled the entire system and need to rerelease everything. Not to mention that the people complaining have the memory of a goldfish. If Kirby was still in charge we probably would have only seen about 3 updated codexes by this point (probably Space Marines, Chaos Marines and Eldar) and it would be unbalanced as all hell because remember, they're were a miniature company not a game company. Not to mention you'd be waiting 6 months for that first Space Marine FAQ and it might not even all the questions you had.
So yeah, I don't really care about the people whining about GW not sticking to a schedule. The world doesn't run on YOUR timeline and what we have now is a lot better than what was before. Here's an experiment, when the Space Wolf codex DOES come out, don't use it till 2020 and don't apply the FAQ until 6 months later. Then you can get that authentic 2014 GW experience that was so great that you linger around the forums like a party guest that was only invited by obligation, as you spend the whole night complaining that the music is too loud and its too crowded.
Wow, what do you know, a delusional white knight that is using the,"it is better than it used to be" argument, and thinks that makes everything peachy keen. That is an extremely frail argument, and if they are so pressed to rush out codex for the new ruleset, wouldn't it be better to wait on the new elite army choices until after the core armies were out, so they could really focus and get them right? Instead they rush them out as quickly as the indexes and 8th edition rules and everyone has to rely, not on the books they purchased, but the FAQ that came out later. Extremely skewed logic, but it is all okay, because, "it is better than it was".
I love that having a reasoned opinion based on a wider view of the situation instead of kneejerk outrage because things didn't go MY way makes me a white knight.
1. You assume I am angry, cute.
2. My way has nothing to do with it, common sense and the staggering of the newest elite armies could have waited until the end, when they had more time to think about it, instead of tossing out a codex and models because they wanted the money faster.
3. Your reasoned opinion is an insult hiding under the standard of the basest white knighting ever. My opinion is using common sense to factor in why we are getting shoddy, incomplete codex for armies that could have been better planned and thought out.
2018/04/15 09:50:15
Subject: Codex releases and why we are seeing subfactions as a full codex release.
Amishprn86 wrote: If you are made b.c you need 2 codei to play 2 armies that you think should be 1, well not everyone feels they should be 1. Thats like saying just put all the SM in 1 codex, that codex will now cost you 150$, and if you play Space Wolves? Well you still need to pay that 150$. And you most likely will have less lore for your Space Wolves due to limited space, b.c no one wants to carry about a 300 page rule book. 2 50 pages is still better.
Or all of the space marine armies go into a single codex that costs the same $50 as any other codex, because a codex doesn't need to cost an extra $100 to cover a page or two of additional chapter tactics.
Also, who cares about the lore? Modern codices suck for this. If you want the lore for your army buy a used copy of a codex from 5th edition or earlier.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote: Stifling their own creativity and ability to expand the game really isn't a positive mindset though.
Only if you put it in those terms. I prefer to think of it it as avoiding rules bloat and emphasizing quality of rules over quantity of rules. You just have to get over the idea that every fluff concept needs to have a specific rule to represent it. For example, genestealer cults can be represented just fine by modeling your infantry squads with some extra Tyranid elements and taking the Catachan doctrine for improved melee strength. It's still a genestealer cult army even if it doesn't come from Codex: Genestealer Cult.
The same is true of a large volume of the armies we have now. There are more stealer cultists on a planet than there are custodes in the universe for example.
Sure. I don't think custodes should ever have been created. They aren't a relevant army in the kind of wars that 40k represents.
Gotta be honest you seem to want to have a continued existence in 3rd-5th 40k, which I can fully understand. They were probably better times with my rose tinted glasses with the standard force org and none of the shenanigans plus creative yet direct concepts.
But people will like what they like and there's nothing stopping you from playing and continuing that way now even.
@CelticKodiac you seem to be diving off the deep side a little, you are appearing aggressive even if that isn't the intent.
Ultimately they're a company that needs to make money, if it's better for them to release books and kits when they do to upkeep revenue, then that's the right choice for them.
Could they put more stuff in the books - yes. But it seems you're just bitter that you have to wait a couple of months longer for a codex and trying to channel that discontent poorly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/15 09:55:03
2018/04/15 09:52:18
Subject: Codex releases and why we are seeing subfactions as a full codex release.
hollow one wrote: I don't even understand the argument. What, you'd rather no subfaction codex and just less effort be put in for subfactions? Squeeze em in to bigger books.
Why?
The only reason I can think of is waiting time. But if you want the same quality of content then they'll probably take just as long (except they'll put it in the full faction codex), and codexes will come out slower because they are bigger.... Have you thought this through?
I have, but apparently you are struggling with it, if GW is so pressed to get all the new codex out with the new 8th edition rules, why release new armies in incomplete codex before you release the core armies that don't really change all that much model-wise? They could have gotten out all the core armies, made the changes to them for 8th, then sat down and really focused on the elite armies, going through the lore, and rounding them out, including the Grey Knights. That isn't really asking much, as most people weren't even expecting the Custodes as early as they did, and no one expected the Imperial Knight codex until it was announced. Yet IK units are in the Adeptus Mechanicus codex already, but another codex is required because they are going to add the minimal amount of models needed to have a small, elite army that, if anyone wants to make a pure army, will spam one unit.
That to me, sounds like most of the people posting rebuttals haven't thought any of this through, but neither has GW.
They can't drive their yearly sales on codexes alone. They need to include new models into the year somewhere to drive sales.
2018/04/15 10:08:01
Subject: Codex releases and why we are seeing subfactions as a full codex release.
I had to read the OP again since it's hard to grasp what the actual topic is under those angry posts.
So basically it boils down to the OP being angry that his minor faction comes a month after other minor factions? I think that's nothing to get heated about. We are in 8th edition, codizes come out literally every month, so some codizes in between mean you'll still get your codex faster than pre 6th edition.
I agree that it's odd that Orks are quite late to the party as they're one of the largest factions model wize and possibly the largest backgroundwize. I just hope it means they make a codex similar to tyranids for them and even give them some new models.
But arguing that wolf marines are the last subfaction codex after vampire marines, monk marines, zombie marines, racist marines and wizard marines seems a bit excessive to me.
2018/04/15 10:29:39
Subject: Codex releases and why we are seeing subfactions as a full codex release.
Amishprn86 wrote: Nothing wrong with more codex's, especially if it gives players enjoyment and keeps them playing.
Many love sub factions moreso than the actual army, Space Marines have had many sub factions for a long time now, its nice to see others get that attention.
If you are made b.c you need 2 codei to play 2 armies that you think should be 1, well not everyone feels they should be 1. Thats like saying just put all the SM in 1 codex, that codex will now cost you 150$, and if you play Space Wolves? Well you still need to pay that 150$. And you most likely will have less lore for your Space Wolves due to limited space, b.c no one wants to carry about a 300 page rule book. 2 50 pages is still better.
Except when you play a SM chapter, they have enough units to build the army and you, under normal circumstances, aren't using another chapter, so no need for a second codex. Almost all SM can use all the Primaris units, except the SW, who have a plethora of other units that fit their aesthetic, and in a lot of cases, are better, so why mix?
Then you have the Custodes and Sisters of Silence, in lore, being the Talons of the Emperor, you literally see this connection all through their lore, yet they will now be 2 separate codex. So if you want to play Talons of the Emperor, and lose a pure army because of it, you buy 2 codex and then fill the rest through Forge World models for the Custodes, which, when that book comes out, will be another full cost book. So playing Custodes, unless you spam bikes, which is their only real option, requires the purchase of 3 books, for all the options you can have for your army, which is one of the smallest.
Harlequin, Death Watch, and Imperial Knights will all run into this same problem, so if anyone wants to run them, they either spam one unit, or they soup with multiple books. While Tau, Space Marine, Necrons, Tyranid, Eldar, Drukhari, Imperial Guard, Chaos Space Marines, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Adeptus Mechanicus, even the Orks without a codex can run pure armies, with varied units, without souping unless they actually want to. All of the elite codex coming out could have been folded into another codex with little to no impact on the price, and the Custodes and Sisters could have been one codex. You don't have to agree that GW is greedy, but it doesn't change the facts.
It's fun that you state an opinion(they should have all been rolled into a codex) and then follow it up with a statement implying that your subjective opinion is fact and their subjective opinion is incorrect. Textbook internet arguing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/15 10:31:18
2018/04/15 11:29:21
Subject: Codex releases and why we are seeing subfactions as a full codex release.
Peregrine wrote:
And the thunderwolves and flyers are awful ideas that never should have existed. Remove the Matt Ward era stupidity from the product line and you're left with an army that is just another space marine army with <SPACE WOLVES> chapter tactics and some characters.
Well, #TheWolfing was on Phil Kelly, not Matt Ward...
So again, I should drop my ISP, the only one in my area, because I think far less of them than I do GW.
False equivalence as ISPs have a strangle hold and offer consumers little choice.
According to you though, to see that a company is using greed to propel mediocre sales, instead of listening to its player base, which would produce much higher income
I'm not sure you've seen their revenue lately. You should check it out. And I'll bet you the VAST majority of the community would prefer separate codexes.
That seems to be something you are not grasping, or are too naive to see, there are very few companies that all people trust 100%, but they buy the products because they have no where else to get them, it is that simple.
Yea, that's fine. The problem is conjuring problems and foisting expectations on the company when the community has pretty much indicated that is what it wants.
2018/04/15 15:03:30
Subject: Codex releases and why we are seeing subfactions as a full codex release.
Peregrine wrote:
And the thunderwolves and flyers are awful ideas that never should have existed. Remove the Matt Ward era stupidity from the product line and you're left with an army that is just another space marine army with <SPACE WOLVES> chapter tactics and some characters.
Well, #TheWolfing was on Phil Kelly, not Matt Ward...
His haters just want to pin everything bad on him.
But yeah.. This topic is really charged right now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/15 15:14:20
2018/04/15 15:10:03
Subject: Codex releases and why we are seeing subfactions as a full codex release.
Please also remember codei aren't just for rules, its to show case those units, the lore, etc..
GW isnt going to make a codex they feel isnt worth the time to invest into, they need to do a lot of work for these books.
And not all codex armies needs to be 20+ units to be fun or funtion, my favorite army to play is Harlequins, and there is only 8 units, they were less than 8 in 2nd-5th and yet players still play them as full armies.
CelticKodiak wrote: Most of their units are Genestealers or some mix of them, the only truly unique models are some vehicles and the mutants, past that, they could have been in the Tyranid codex as a subfaction with no issues, but again, gotta get all that money they are raking in for the extra codex armies.
The industrial vehicles and mutants make up 10 out of 16 unit entries, of which only 2 unit entries are shared with Tyranids (Patriarch is similar to a Brood Lord with some stat tweaks/Purestrain Genestealers are Genestealers) and 4 entries are borrowed from the IG/AM (Russes, Sentinels, Chimera). To put it another way, 62% of their army is comprised of unique models.
I don't think they could really be rolled into to the Tyranid book as a sub-faction, as the two have drastically different playstyles and aesthetics. As a stand-alone army they also open up a lot of design space to experiment with civil resistance/guerilla fighter themes that aren't really able to be taken advantage of by other armies.
CelticKodiak wrote: Not to mention, where are all the Genestealer Cult armies? Oh, they barely exist because their units are lackluster and unless you build mostly Genestealers, the army lacks severely.
A lot of them were probably shelved due to the transition from 7th to 8th. The main net list the army had in 7th simply does not work with the matched play rules restricting the number of ambushes the army can make and a multi-faceted nerf to the main component of the old list (i.e. Metamorphs). Most of their units are fairly descent from a rules perspective, but for their points/power cost. As everyone else has gotten point reductions with their codexes, GSC units have gotten relatively more expensive by comparison. This isn't unique to the GSC though, see Necrons or Dark Eldar pre-codex releases and compare to the uptick in popularity post-codex release.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/15 17:27:04
2018/04/15 17:25:22
Subject: Codex releases and why we are seeing subfactions as a full codex release.
Yeah... GSC isnt very good atm, ut also take a large investment to get into like some other armies, plus them still being a new army. You wont see many GSC players atm.
Using a low play army as your point that "Sub factions suck" isnt a good argument, there are many factors as to why 1 is less played than others.
Heck, one of my friends dropped 1600$ on GSC, he doesnt play b.c they suck atm.
3. Your reasoned opinion is an insult hiding under the standard of the basest white knighting ever. My opinion is using common sense to factor in why we are getting shoddy, incomplete codex for armies that could have been better planned and thought out.
REMOVED - BROOKM
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/15 18:33:11
2018/04/15 17:46:38
Subject: Re:Codex releases and why we are seeing subfactions as a full codex release.
3. Your reasoned opinion is an insult hiding under the standard of the basest white knighting ever. My opinion is using common sense to factor in why we are getting shoddy, incomplete codex for armies that could have been better planned and thought out.
REMOVED - BROOKM
That doesn't help, dude.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/15 18:33:22
2018/04/15 17:57:13
Subject: Codex releases and why we are seeing subfactions as a full codex release.
So other than pure greed, I don't see why most of these subfactions couldn't be rolled out as a joint codex with the primary factions. If the Imperial Knights get a troop transport option that should have gone to Admech, there might honestly be a riot with how many people are annoyed by having to footslog more than half of their melee troops across the board while getting torn apart by enemy fire before they get their slow asses there.
They release many codex because it makes them more money than less. What else reason they need? Their one and only concern is money
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2018/04/15 18:01:11
Subject: Codex releases and why we are seeing subfactions as a full codex release.
hollow one wrote: I don't even understand the argument. What, you'd rather no subfaction codex and just less effort be put in for subfactions? Squeeze em in to bigger books.
Why?
The only reason I can think of is waiting time. But if you want the same quality of content then they'll probably take just as long (except they'll put it in the full faction codex), and codexes will come out slower because they are bigger.... Have you thought this through?
I have, but apparently you are struggling with it, if GW is so pressed to get all the new codex out with the new 8th edition rules, why release new armies in incomplete codex before you release the core armies that don't really change all that much model-wise? They could have gotten out all the core armies, made the changes to them for 8th, then sat down and really focused on the elite armies, going through the lore, and rounding them out, including the Grey Knights. That isn't really asking much, as most people weren't even expecting the Custodes as early as they did, and no one expected the Imperial Knight codex until it was announced. Yet IK units are in the Adeptus Mechanicus codex already, but another codex is required because they are going to add the minimal amount of models needed to have a small, elite army that, if anyone wants to make a pure army, will spam one unit.
That to me, sounds like most of the people posting rebuttals haven't thought any of this through, but neither has GW.
They can't drive their yearly sales on codexes alone. They need to include new models into the year somewhere to drive sales.
Yet that could be done better, instead of shoving codex that shouldn't be a thing down our throats. Half of the elite army codex could have waited until all the other, older armies had codex, and some of those have new models, so what is the difference?
2018/04/15 18:05:00
Subject: Re:Codex releases and why we are seeing subfactions as a full codex release.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: I had to read the OP again since it's hard to grasp what the actual topic is under those angry posts.
So basically it boils down to the OP being angry that his minor faction comes a month after other minor factions? I think that's nothing to get heated about. We are in 8th edition, codizes come out literally every month, so some codizes in between mean you'll still get your codex faster than pre 6th edition.
I agree that it's odd that Orks are quite late to the party as they're one of the largest factions model wize and possibly the largest backgroundwize. I just hope it means they make a codex similar to tyranids for them and even give them some new models.
But arguing that wolf marines are the last subfaction codex after vampire marines, monk marines, zombie marines, racist marines and wizard marines seems a bit excessive to me.
Not angry about SW not having a codex, I am more than content playing Death Guard or even Custodes, I am making the point that the smaller, elite armies being shoved out too quickly makes them incomplete, yet still requiring a full priced codex to run. Grey Knights, from what I have read, have had issues for a long time, yet they get the new codex, and still have the same, or similar issues, so nothing was even done to address them. Custodes are incomplete and lack definitive unit types to round out their army, the Sisters of Silence will most likely be the same way. Imperial Knights already have rules in Adeptus Mechanicus, yet we need a new codex for the few, unneeded units that will be in there to make a small, incomplete army, based on what GW has done so far with small, elite codex.
Amishprn86 wrote: Nothing wrong with more codex's, especially if it gives players enjoyment and keeps them playing.
Many love sub factions moreso than the actual army, Space Marines have had many sub factions for a long time now, its nice to see others get that attention.
If you are made b.c you need 2 codei to play 2 armies that you think should be 1, well not everyone feels they should be 1. Thats like saying just put all the SM in 1 codex, that codex will now cost you 150$, and if you play Space Wolves? Well you still need to pay that 150$. And you most likely will have less lore for your Space Wolves due to limited space, b.c no one wants to carry about a 300 page rule book. 2 50 pages is still better.
Except when you play a SM chapter, they have enough units to build the army and you, under normal circumstances, aren't using another chapter, so no need for a second codex. Almost all SM can use all the Primaris units, except the SW, who have a plethora of other units that fit their aesthetic, and in a lot of cases, are better, so why mix?
Then you have the Custodes and Sisters of Silence, in lore, being the Talons of the Emperor, you literally see this connection all through their lore, yet they will now be 2 separate codex. So if you want to play Talons of the Emperor, and lose a pure army because of it, you buy 2 codex and then fill the rest through Forge World models for the Custodes, which, when that book comes out, will be another full cost book. So playing Custodes, unless you spam bikes, which is their only real option, requires the purchase of 3 books, for all the options you can have for your army, which is one of the smallest.
Harlequin, Death Watch, and Imperial Knights will all run into this same problem, so if anyone wants to run them, they either spam one unit, or they soup with multiple books. While Tau, Space Marine, Necrons, Tyranid, Eldar, Drukhari, Imperial Guard, Chaos Space Marines, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Adeptus Mechanicus, even the Orks without a codex can run pure armies, with varied units, without souping unless they actually want to. All of the elite codex coming out could have been folded into another codex with little to no impact on the price, and the Custodes and Sisters could have been one codex. You don't have to agree that GW is greedy, but it doesn't change the facts.
It's fun that you state an opinion(they should have all been rolled into a codex) and then follow it up with a statement implying that your subjective opinion is fact and their subjective opinion is incorrect. Textbook internet arguing.
Stating something without actually pointing out what is false to prove anything, because they cannot. So they make a blanket, dismissive statement to try and undermine the facts, try again.
3. Your reasoned opinion is an insult hiding under the standard of the basest white knighting ever. My opinion is using common sense to factor in why we are getting shoddy, incomplete codex for armies that could have been better planned and thought out.
Wow, you're one angry nerd. Back to /tg nerd, hush hush, come back when you've grown up.
That is one structured and fact filled rebuttal to what I said, and hypocritical at that, try again, you failed.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/15 18:10:57
2018/04/15 18:14:55
Subject: Codex releases and why we are seeing subfactions as a full codex release.
New factions or not there would still be rules bloat. Even if they were to combine factions there would still be rules bloat for the simple reason that all the sub factions that were to be removed would just translate instead into new models for existing factions making them even larger and more unwieldy(ie. rules bloat). This is why we have Primaris marines as they are new models to a market that has a lot of old space marine units that most people have. People that probably have stopped buying units unless GW throws something new and exciting at them.
Could also be the reason why they want you to mix and match allies in detachments. It gives the old curmudgeons a chance to expand their armies without stopping playing them(I know this has had an effect on me with the Aeldari in general).
Much like Magic The Gathering, Warhammer can only stay afloat as long as GW produces new stuff which will lead to rules bloat. The difference here between GW and magic is that WoC limits the amount of sets you can play with at a time. At best the only similar thing GW can do is to remove old models that are not made anymore.
Regarding the order of the codexes it's an interesting conundrum. Would love to know what the reasoning is behind it, but it must be there regardless of how valid one might consider it. Could be that they are releasing new models with SW and Orks which might explain the delay. Could also be that they are problematic to balance for some reason, or they just don't have a champion to work on them.
2018/04/15 18:17:08
Subject: Codex releases and why we are seeing subfactions as a full codex release.
Different codex or merged. Something to keep in mind either way you get exact same models so what gw has to lose with different codex? People buy codexes for their army so splitting them up makes lots of sense...
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2018/04/15 18:19:43
Subject: Codex releases and why we are seeing subfactions as a full codex release.
Codex order could just be as easy as "I have ideas for this army and feel like working on them now" and other armies could be "I have no idea what to do with this army" (Cough cough Ynnari).
Besides Marines being 1st ofc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/15 18:19:56
So again, I should drop my ISP, the only one in my area, because I think far less of them than I do GW.
False equivalence as ISPs have a strangle hold and offer consumers little choice.
According to you though, to see that a company is using greed to propel mediocre sales, instead of listening to its player base, which would produce much higher income
I'm not sure you've seen their revenue lately. You should check it out. And I'll bet you the VAST majority of the community would prefer separate codexes.
That seems to be something you are not grasping, or are too naive to see, there are very few companies that all people trust 100%, but they buy the products because they have no where else to get them, it is that simple.
Yea, that's fine. The problem is conjuring problems and foisting expectations on the company when the community has pretty much indicated that is what it wants.
1. What other purchasing options do you have with 40k? You cannot 3d print your own models, you cannot buy models made by a 3rd party unless they are explicitly given permission from GW to make them. They have a stranglehold on their IP, so it correlates just fine.
2. Really? The vast majority wants incomplete codex for their armies that require a second codex just to fill in required roles? Okay.
3. Yet I skim other forums and see issues pop up everywhere about overpowered Eldar, underpowered GSC, completely useless Ruststalkers with no transport options, and terminators being entirely underpowered for their cost. Yes, it seems this is exactly what the community wants, you are right, I conjured up these issues, no one has these problems. Expecting common sense shouldn't be an expectation, it should be a requirement.
2018/04/15 18:22:18
Subject: Codex releases and why we are seeing subfactions as a full codex release.
I don't think there is any harm is then making a full book for a faction with a smaller number of units in it if people want to play that faction.
Having more rules, strategems, powers, relics, etc makes the game more interesting. It's more interesting for a blood angel player with a full codex than it is a salamander player with 1 strategem, relic, character, and so on, even if half the BA options are the same.
Balance is always going to be an issue, but I think it's a mostly separate one.
To me the main downside of the smaller faction books is they likely have smaller numbers of players, and so are irrelevant to more people, and it can be frustrating to see them come out before the army you play and are waiting for. So it would have made more sense, perhaps, to come out with factions in the order of their popularity in order to appease more people. But in a year or so when everything is released, this will be much less of an issue, and I have a hard time seeing why you'd be upset that a book like GK or GSC exists.
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