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2018/04/17 15:43:26
Subject: Stratagems at the end of your turn - not in a phase?
BaconCatBug wrote: If you think that the beginning of the phase is a magical place with rainbows and unicorns that isn't actually part of the phase, sure. The start of your turn is the start of your movement phase, there isn't a bit "before" the movement phase.
Well that's what I'm asking about. I'm not sure what to think, and I've seen both points of view in this thread with no consensus.
Reading the index, I see it says eg. "The unit can immediately move as if it were the movement phase"
The "as if it were a .. phase" , might result in stratagems being allowed only once, as if it were a ... phase. But thats for a different thread.
2018/04/17 15:51:35
Subject: Stratagems at the end of your turn - not in a phase?
BaconCatBug wrote: If you think that the beginning of the phase is a magical place with rainbows and unicorns that isn't actually part of the phase, sure. The start of your turn is the start of your movement phase, there isn't a bit "before" the movement phase.
Well that's what I'm asking about. I'm not sure what to think, and I've seen both points of view in this thread with no consensus.
Reading the index, I see it says eg. "The unit can immediately move as if it were the movement phase"
The "as if it were a .. phase" , might result in stratagems being allowed only once, as if it were a ... phase. But thats for a different thread.
I would consider that evidence the other way; e.g. that the whole process isn't in the movement phase. If it was already the movement phase, it wouldn't have to pretend to be the movement phase for the movement portion of AOF.
2018/04/17 18:02:27
Subject: Stratagems at the end of your turn - not in a phase?
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
2018/04/17 20:43:50
Subject: Re:Stratagems at the end of your turn - not in a phase?
JakeSiren wrote: The key point I was making is that the FAQ demonstrates that the end of phase is not during the phase. Which means the restriction on strategic discipline is not in effect at the end of a phase. Notice the usage of during phase in both rules?
No, it doesn't say that at all. It's saying you can't use "during" stratagems after the "end" of the phase.
Um, hate to break it to you, but if you can't use "during" stratagems then that's because it's not "during" that phase. And who was saying that we were using the stratagems after the phase has ended?
No, that's not what it means. You can't use it after something happens at the "end" of the phase, because if you did it wouldn't have been the "end" when the thing happened.
Example: A unit arrives at the end of the movement phase. If you use a stratagem after they arrive, then they didn't arrive at the end of the phase.
I actually agree with you on this one for the most part but you are wrong that you cannot use a stratagem after nits arrive from reserves. You can use "end of phase" stratagems after reserves due to sequecning.
There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty. - Lord Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov
In an Imperium of a million worlds, what is the death of one world in the cause of purity?~Inquisition credo
He who allows the alien to live, shares its crime of existence. ~Inquisitor Apollyon
2018/04/17 21:46:16
Subject: Stratagems at the end of your turn - not in a phase?
BaconCatBug wrote: That is not what the FAQ says at all. It says you can't use the stratagems, but that doesn't suddenly make the end of the phase not happen in that phase.
Then enlighten me. What logical reason would prevent the "during" stratagem being used during the phase?
Weather you consider the "end of phase" to be instant or a period of time, there would be allowance in the rules to either a) sequence the "during phase" stratagem for after the unit has arrived from reserves, or b) play it in the period of time that is allocated for "end of phase". Clearly GW have ruled otherwise, and there is a reason. The reason I'm putting forwards it that "at the end of the phase" is not "during" the phase, but I'm open to other reasons.
Because it would mean you illegally placed the models that come at the end of the phase. If you use a stratagem after the models arrive, then the models did not arrive at the end of the phase.
Can you be more precise with your language? Surely you're not saying I can't use any "at the end of the movement phase" stratagems "at the end of the movement phase" after I've put down reinforcements?
Do you consider the "end of movement phase" to be an instant to be sequenced or a period of time?
He's saying the new FAQ says you can't use stratagems that say "during" the phase at the end of the phase. The question was about casting something on reinforcements coming onto the board, which happens at the end of the movement phase, and they have now officially said that you can't cast a strat that you use during the phase on reinforcements. they arrive at the end of the phase, but if you are casting a "during" the phase power after they arrive, then they would not have been arriving at the end of the movement phase and you would have acted illegally. I don't see where you're coming up with him saying that you can't use "at the end of the movement phase" stratatems at the end of the movement phase or "during the movement phase" stratagems during the movement phase. He's saying you don't use "during the movement phase" stratagems at the end of the movement phase, as per the FAQ.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JakeSiren wrote: The key point I was making is that the FAQ demonstrates that the end of phase is not during the phase. Which means the restriction on strategic discipline is not in effect at the end of a phase. Notice the usage of during phase in both rules?
Are they stratagems that say you can use them at the end of the phase?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/17 21:49:59
2018/04/17 22:22:45
Subject: Stratagems at the end of your turn - not in a phase?
BaconCatBug wrote: That is not what the FAQ says at all. It says you can't use the stratagems, but that doesn't suddenly make the end of the phase not happen in that phase.
Then enlighten me. What logical reason would prevent the "during" stratagem being used during the phase?
Weather you consider the "end of phase" to be instant or a period of time, there would be allowance in the rules to either a) sequence the "during phase" stratagem for after the unit has arrived from reserves, or b) play it in the period of time that is allocated for "end of phase". Clearly GW have ruled otherwise, and there is a reason. The reason I'm putting forwards it that "at the end of the phase" is not "during" the phase, but I'm open to other reasons.
Because it would mean you illegally placed the models that come at the end of the phase. If you use a stratagem after the models arrive, then the models did not arrive at the end of the phase.
Can you be more precise with your language? Surely you're not saying I can't use any "at the end of the movement phase" stratagems "at the end of the movement phase" after I've put down reinforcements?
Do you consider the "end of movement phase" to be an instant to be sequenced or a period of time?
He's saying the new FAQ says you can't use stratagems that say "during" the phase at the end of the phase. The question was about casting something on reinforcements coming onto the board, which happens at the end of the movement phase, and they have now officially said that you can't cast a strat that you use during the phase on reinforcements. they arrive at the end of the phase, but if you are casting a "during" the phase power after they arrive, then they would not have been arriving at the end of the movement phase and you would have acted illegally. I don't see where you're coming up with him saying that you can't use "at the end of the movement phase" stratatems at the end of the movement phase or "during the movement phase" stratagems during the movement phase. He's saying you don't use "during the movement phase" stratagems at the end of the movement phase, as per the FAQ.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JakeSiren wrote: The key point I was making is that the FAQ demonstrates that the end of phase is not during the phase. Which means the restriction on strategic discipline is not in effect at the end of a phase. Notice the usage of during phase in both rules?
Are they stratagems that say you can use them at the end of the phase?
I started by asking about a stratagem I can play for necrons at the end of my turn. It gives +1A and +1 on save rolls till the beginning of my next turn. To weather the storm.
2018/04/17 23:04:11
Subject: Stratagems at the end of your turn - not in a phase?
BaconCatBug wrote: That is not what the FAQ says at all. It says you can't use the stratagems, but that doesn't suddenly make the end of the phase not happen in that phase.
Then enlighten me. What logical reason would prevent the "during" stratagem being used during the phase?
Weather you consider the "end of phase" to be instant or a period of time, there would be allowance in the rules to either a) sequence the "during phase" stratagem for after the unit has arrived from reserves, or b) play it in the period of time that is allocated for "end of phase". Clearly GW have ruled otherwise, and there is a reason. The reason I'm putting forwards it that "at the end of the phase" is not "during" the phase, but I'm open to other reasons.
Because it would mean you illegally placed the models that come at the end of the phase. If you use a stratagem after the models arrive, then the models did not arrive at the end of the phase.
Can you be more precise with your language? Surely you're not saying I can't use any "at the end of the movement phase" stratagems "at the end of the movement phase" after I've put down reinforcements?
Do you consider the "end of movement phase" to be an instant to be sequenced or a period of time?
He's saying the new FAQ says you can't use stratagems that say "during" the phase at the end of the phase. The question was about casting something on reinforcements coming onto the board, which happens at the end of the movement phase, and they have now officially said that you can't cast a strat that you use during the phase on reinforcements. they arrive at the end of the phase, but if you are casting a "during" the phase power after they arrive, then they would not have been arriving at the end of the movement phase and you would have acted illegally. I don't see where you're coming up with him saying that you can't use "at the end of the movement phase" stratatems at the end of the movement phase or "during the movement phase" stratagems during the movement phase. He's saying you don't use "during the movement phase" stratagems at the end of the movement phase, as per the FAQ.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JakeSiren wrote: The key point I was making is that the FAQ demonstrates that the end of phase is not during the phase. Which means the restriction on strategic discipline is not in effect at the end of a phase. Notice the usage of during phase in both rules?
Are they stratagems that say you can use them at the end of the phase?
Yes. I think you see what I'm saying. As "at the end of the movement phase" is not counted as "during" the phase you don't have the restriction of Strategic Discipline and thus can play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times in matched play.
2018/04/17 23:16:29
Subject: Stratagems at the end of your turn - not in a phase?
JakeSiren wrote: Yes. I think you see what I'm saying. As "at the end of the movement phase" is not counted as "during" the phase you don't have the restriction of Strategic Discipline and thus can play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times in matched play.
No, that is not how it works at all...
The end of the movement phase is still the movement phase.
2018/04/18 01:23:57
Subject: Stratagems at the end of your turn - not in a phase?
JakeSiren wrote: Yes. I think you see what I'm saying. As "at the end of the movement phase" is not counted as "during" the phase you don't have the restriction of Strategic Discipline and thus can play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times in matched play.
No, that is not how it works at all...
The end of the movement phase is still the movement phase.
Yes, correct, but it's not during the movement phase. Or are you suggesting that you can play "during" stratagems at the end of the phase?
2018/04/18 01:29:03
Subject: Stratagems at the end of your turn - not in a phase?
JakeSiren wrote: Yes. I think you see what I'm saying. As "at the end of the movement phase" is not counted as "during" the phase you don't have the restriction of Strategic Discipline and thus can play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times in matched play.
No, that is not how it works at all...
The end of the movement phase is still the movement phase.
Yes, correct, but it's not during the movement phase. Or are you suggesting that you can play "during" stratagems at the end of the phase?
You're wilfully ignoring what we have already told you. The FAQ isn't saying the end of the phase is not during the phase, it is saying that you can't use stratagems after things happen at the end of the phase, because if you do then the things that were supposed to happen at the end of the phase did not happen at the end of the phase and thus were illegally done.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/18 01:29:17
2018/04/18 01:53:42
Subject: Re:Stratagems at the end of your turn - not in a phase?
To back up BaconCatBug, only one thing can happen at the End of a Phase because anything else happening would be after the End of the Phase meaning the thing that just happened at the End of the Phase actually occurred during the phase. GW has placed an exception for multiple things that must happen at the End of the Phase to be sequenced one after another. This does not create an exception allowing you to do an action that isn't an End of the Phase action.
2018/04/18 02:00:56
Subject: Stratagems at the end of your turn - not in a phase?
JakeSiren wrote: Yes. I think you see what I'm saying. As "at the end of the movement phase" is not counted as "during" the phase you don't have the restriction of Strategic Discipline and thus can play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times in matched play.
No, that is not how it works at all...
The end of the movement phase is still the movement phase.
Yes, correct, but it's not during the movement phase. Or are you suggesting that you can play "during" stratagems at the end of the phase?
You're wilfully ignoring what we have already told you. The FAQ isn't saying the end of the phase is not during the phase, it is saying that you can't use stratagems after things happen at the end of the phase, because if you do then the things that were supposed to happen at the end of the phase did not happen at the end of the phase and thus were illegally done.
No, I'm applying the logical conclusion of the faq.
Your view appears to be that the end of the phase is an instant point in time that you sequence out. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
To play both Stratagem A and Stratagem B at the end of the phase, and to have reinforcements come in you would need to use the sequencing the rules. You could sequence in any combination, but let's say you decide that Strategem A gets resolved first. You then bring in your unit of reinforcements. Then chose to resolve Stratagem B.
According to you the "end of the phase" is also "during the phase". This means that Stratagem B could be a "during the movement phase" Stratagem as it fulfills the activation requirements. The FAQ says that we can't use the "during the movement phase" stratagem on reinforcements. But why? The only logical explanation I can come up with is that in fact the "end of the phase" is not "during" that phase.
If you can come up with a logical and rules consistent alternative I would love to hear it, but saying "it doesn't work that way" without explanation or rules is nothing but hot air.
2018/04/18 05:39:30
Subject: Stratagems at the end of your turn - not in a phase?
The actual logical explanation is actually that the ‘end’ is ‘during’ the Phase, but a new FAQ special rule disallows using stratagems then.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
2018/04/18 06:18:41
Subject: Stratagems at the end of your turn - not in a phase?
The question starts off a little different, but trust me it's the same discussion. Anyone fascinated with this topic has 12 pages more to read at their leisure!
2018/04/18 06:36:42
Subject: Stratagems at the end of your turn - not in a phase?
JohnnyHell wrote: The actual logical explanation is actually that the ‘end’ is ‘during’ the Phase, but a new FAQ special rule disallows using stratagems then.
Sure, a possibility that I'm willing to consider.
What evidence do you have that this is the case over the simpler explanation that "at the end of the movement phase" is not considered as "during the movement phase" for rules purposes?
2018/04/18 06:41:02
Subject: Stratagems at the end of your turn - not in a phase?
JohnnyHell wrote: The actual logical explanation is actually that the ‘end’ is ‘during’ the Phase, but a new FAQ special rule disallows using stratagems then.
Sure, a possibility that I'm willing to consider.
What evidence do you have that this is the case over the simpler explanation that "at the end of the movement phase" is not considered as "during the movement phase" for rules purposes?
JohnnyHell wrote: The actual logical explanation is actually that the ‘end’ is ‘during’ the Phase, but a new FAQ special rule disallows using stratagems then.
Sure, a possibility that I'm willing to consider.
What evidence do you have that this is the case over the simpler explanation that "at the end of the movement phase" is not considered as "during the movement phase" for rules purposes?
Specifically, a robust conversation about the rules and to reassess our assumptions about the rules in light of new information. In addition to understand what the implications of said assumptions are.
2018/04/18 10:50:05
Subject: Stratagems at the end of your turn - not in a phase?
JohnnyHell wrote: The actual logical explanation is actually that the ‘end’ is ‘during’ the Phase, but a new FAQ special rule disallows using stratagems then.
Sure, a possibility that I'm willing to consider.
What evidence do you have that this is the case over the simpler explanation that "at the end of the movement phase" is not considered as "during the movement phase" for rules purposes?
This also seems to be related, although it is talking about events at the start of a battle round. The consensus seemed to be that that was not in a phase, but in this thread people seem to be leaning the other way.
2018/04/18 14:13:40
Subject: Stratagems at the end of your turn - not in a phase?
JakeSiren wrote: Yes. I think you see what I'm saying. As "at the end of the movement phase" is not counted as "during" the phase you don't have the restriction of Strategic Discipline and thus can play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times in matched play.
No, that is not how it works at all...
The end of the movement phase is still the movement phase.
Yes, correct, but it's not during the movement phase. Or are you suggesting that you can play "during" stratagems at the end of the phase?
You're wilfully ignoring what we have already told you. The FAQ isn't saying the end of the phase is not during the phase, it is saying that you can't use stratagems after things happen at the end of the phase, because if you do then the things that were supposed to happen at the end of the phase did not happen at the end of the phase and thus were illegally done.
No, I'm applying the logical conclusion of the faq.
Your view appears to be that the end of the phase is an instant point in time that you sequence out. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
To play both Stratagem A and Stratagem B at the end of the phase, and to have reinforcements come in you would need to use the sequencing the rules. You could sequence in any combination, but let's say you decide that Strategem A gets resolved first. You then bring in your unit of reinforcements. Then chose to resolve Stratagem B.
According to you the "end of the phase" is also "during the phase". This means that Stratagem B could be a "during the movement phase" Stratagem as it fulfills the activation requirements. The FAQ says that we can't use the "during the movement phase" stratagem on reinforcements. But why? The only logical explanation I can come up with is that in fact the "end of the phase" is not "during" that phase.
If you can come up with a logical and rules consistent alternative I would love to hear it, but saying "it doesn't work that way" without explanation or rules is nothing but hot air.
Your argument about sequencing stratagems at the end of the phase along with anything else that has to happen at the end of the phase was the argument that people had been trying to use in order to use a stratagem on a unit that had just arrived from Reserves, by saying you're using the stratagem at the end of the phase and are sequencing it so that the unit arriving from reserves happens first. GW has shut that down completely with their FAQ answer. Basically they are saying you don't get to sequence stratagems at the end of a phase unless the stratagem states that it happens at the end of the phase or triggers off of something that happens then (like getting to shoot at a unit that just arrived from Reserves).
What you are trying to do is the complete antithesis of what they are saying - you want to sequence infinite stratagems in there when they said "no, you can't do that, you can't play stratagems after something that's supposed to happen at the end of the phase." The inference you need to take from it is that you don't get to use stratagems at the end of a phase unless the stratagem tells you that you can do so.
2018/04/18 14:42:11
Subject: Stratagems at the end of your turn - not in a phase?
Haven't read all referenced material, but, end of turn you calculate your VP winnings for that turn. That's certainly not in the psychic phase, so a stratagem happening end of turn should be between phases then?
2018/04/18 14:45:51
Subject: Stratagems at the end of your turn - not in a phase?
torblind wrote: Haven't read all referenced material, but, end of turn you calculate your VP winnings for that turn. That's certainly not in the psychic phase, so a stratagem happening end of turn should be between phases then?
The end of your turn is the same as the end of the Morale Phase.
2018/04/18 15:01:22
Subject: Stratagems at the end of your turn - not in a phase?
JakeSiren wrote: Yes. I think you see what I'm saying. As "at the end of the movement phase" is not counted as "during" the phase you don't have the restriction of Strategic Discipline and thus can play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times in matched play.
No, that is not how it works at all...
The end of the movement phase is still the movement phase.
Yes, correct, but it's not during the movement phase. Or are you suggesting that you can play "during" stratagems at the end of the phase?
You're wilfully ignoring what we have already told you. The FAQ isn't saying the end of the phase is not during the phase, it is saying that you can't use stratagems after things happen at the end of the phase, because if you do then the things that were supposed to happen at the end of the phase did not happen at the end of the phase and thus were illegally done.
No, I'm applying the logical conclusion of the faq.
Your view appears to be that the end of the phase is an instant point in time that you sequence out. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
To play both Stratagem A and Stratagem B at the end of the phase, and to have reinforcements come in you would need to use the sequencing the rules. You could sequence in any combination, but let's say you decide that Strategem A gets resolved first. You then bring in your unit of reinforcements. Then chose to resolve Stratagem B.
According to you the "end of the phase" is also "during the phase". This means that Stratagem B could be a "during the movement phase" Stratagem as it fulfills the activation requirements. The FAQ says that we can't use the "during the movement phase" stratagem on reinforcements. But why? The only logical explanation I can come up with is that in fact the "end of the phase" is not "during" that phase.
If you can come up with a logical and rules consistent alternative I would love to hear it, but saying "it doesn't work that way" without explanation or rules is nothing but hot air.
Your argument about sequencing stratagems at the end of the phase along with anything else that has to happen at the end of the phase was the argument that people had been trying to use in order to use a stratagem on a unit that had just arrived from Reserves, by saying you're using the stratagem at the end of the phase and are sequencing it so that the unit arriving from reserves happens first. GW has shut that down completely with their FAQ answer. Basically they are saying you don't get to sequence stratagems at the end of a phase unless the stratagem states that it happens at the end of the phase or triggers off of something that happens then (like getting to shoot at a unit that just arrived from Reserves).
What you are trying to do is the complete antithesis of what they are saying - you want to sequence infinite stratagems in there when they said "no, you can't do that, you can't play stratagems after something that's supposed to happen at the end of the phase." The inference you need to take from it is that you don't get to use stratagems at the end of a phase unless the stratagem tells you that you can do so.
I think your argument is confused, or you haven't articulated it fully. Your first and second paragraphs seem to be in disagreement as to how you play stratagems "at the end of the movement phase" and what is permitted.
For clarity GW have specifically shutdown playing "during your movement phase" stratagems "at the end of the movement phase" on units that have arrived from reserve. Nor was I arguing that we should be able to play any "during" stratagems "at the end".
For a Stratagem to be played you need to meet the criteria for playing it. For our discussions either "during the movement phase" or "at the end of the movement phase". If we have multiple "at the end of the movement phase" stratagems we are then allowed to sequence them with other "at the end of the movement phase" actions as you have rightly identified in your first paragraph. We are unable to play any "during the movement phase" stratagems as it is no longer "during the movement phase". This is where you have your disconnect however.
At this point I want to quote strategic discipline for you:
BRB wrote:The same Strategem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase. This does not affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used 'before the battle begins' or 'at the end of a battle round'
If we say "at the end of the movement phase" is considered to be during the movement phase then Strategic Discipline applies. But it also allows us to play stratagems that occur "during the movement phase".
If we say "at the end of the movement phase" is NOT considered to be during the movement phase then Strategic Discipline does not apply. But it also prevents us from playing any stratagems that occur "during the movement phase".
You want "at the end of the movement phase" to be both during and not during the movement phase - during for the purpose of Strategic Discipline, and not during for Strategem use. This is not supported by the rules.
Games Workshop have ruled that you can't play "during the movement phase" stratagems at "the end of the movement phase". Why? I put forwards the reasonable argument that "the end of the movement phase" is not during the movement phase. This in turn means that strategic discipline does not apply and you can play a "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem as many times as you would like.
2018/04/18 15:38:52
Subject: Stratagems at the end of your turn - not in a phase?
JakeSiren wrote: Yes. I think you see what I'm saying. As "at the end of the movement phase" is not counted as "during" the phase you don't have the restriction of Strategic Discipline and thus can play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times in matched play.
No, that is not how it works at all...
The end of the movement phase is still the movement phase.
Yes, correct, but it's not during the movement phase. Or are you suggesting that you can play "during" stratagems at the end of the phase?
You're wilfully ignoring what we have already told you. The FAQ isn't saying the end of the phase is not during the phase, it is saying that you can't use stratagems after things happen at the end of the phase, because if you do then the things that were supposed to happen at the end of the phase did not happen at the end of the phase and thus were illegally done.
No, I'm applying the logical conclusion of the faq.
Your view appears to be that the end of the phase is an instant point in time that you sequence out. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
To play both Stratagem A and Stratagem B at the end of the phase, and to have reinforcements come in you would need to use the sequencing the rules. You could sequence in any combination, but let's say you decide that Strategem A gets resolved first. You then bring in your unit of reinforcements. Then chose to resolve Stratagem B.
According to you the "end of the phase" is also "during the phase". This means that Stratagem B could be a "during the movement phase" Stratagem as it fulfills the activation requirements. The FAQ says that we can't use the "during the movement phase" stratagem on reinforcements. But why? The only logical explanation I can come up with is that in fact the "end of the phase" is not "during" that phase.
If you can come up with a logical and rules consistent alternative I would love to hear it, but saying "it doesn't work that way" without explanation or rules is nothing but hot air.
Your argument about sequencing stratagems at the end of the phase along with anything else that has to happen at the end of the phase was the argument that people had been trying to use in order to use a stratagem on a unit that had just arrived from Reserves, by saying you're using the stratagem at the end of the phase and are sequencing it so that the unit arriving from reserves happens first. GW has shut that down completely with their FAQ answer. Basically they are saying you don't get to sequence stratagems at the end of a phase unless the stratagem states that it happens at the end of the phase or triggers off of something that happens then (like getting to shoot at a unit that just arrived from Reserves).
What you are trying to do is the complete antithesis of what they are saying - you want to sequence infinite stratagems in there when they said "no, you can't do that, you can't play stratagems after something that's supposed to happen at the end of the phase." The inference you need to take from it is that you don't get to use stratagems at the end of a phase unless the stratagem tells you that you can do so.
I think your argument is confused, or you haven't articulated it fully. Your first and second paragraphs seem to be in disagreement as to how you play stratagems "at the end of the movement phase" and what is permitted.
For clarity GW have specifically shutdown playing "during your movement phase" stratagems "at the end of the movement phase" on units that have arrived from reserve. Nor was I arguing that we should be able to play any "during" stratagems "at the end".
For a Stratagem to be played you need to meet the criteria for playing it. For our discussions either "during the movement phase" or "at the end of the movement phase". If we have multiple "at the end of the movement phase" stratagems we are then allowed to sequence them with other "at the end of the movement phase" actions as you have rightly identified in your first paragraph. We are unable to play any "during the movement phase" stratagems as it is no longer "during the movement phase". This is where you have your disconnect however.
At this point I want to quote strategic discipline for you:
BRB wrote:The same Strategem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase. This does not affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used 'before the battle begins' or 'at the end of a battle round'
If we say "at the end of the movement phase" is considered to be during the movement phase then Strategic Discipline applies. But it also allows us to play stratagems that occur "during the movement phase".
If we say "at the end of the movement phase" is NOT considered to be during the movement phase then Strategic Discipline does not apply. But it also prevents us from playing any stratagems that occur "during the movement phase".
You want "at the end of the movement phase" to be both during and not during the movement phase - during for the purpose of Strategic Discipline, and not during for Strategem use. This is not supported by the rules.
Games Workshop have ruled that you can't play "during the movement phase" stratagems at "the end of the movement phase". Why? I put forwards the reasonable argument that "the end of the movement phase" is not during the movement phase. This in turn means that strategic discipline does not apply and you can play a "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem as many times as you would like.
Basically they are saying you don't get to sequence stratagems at the end of a phase unless the stratagem states that it happens at the end of the phase or triggers off of something that happens then (like getting to shoot at a unit that just arrived from Reserves). If you have multiple stratagems that say they are played at the end of the phase then you play them then.
As BCB has indicated, however, the end of a phase is still part of the phase, so you can't play the same stratagem multiple times. They don't let you play "during the phase" stratagems after something that happens at the end of the phase because then you would be trying to play it after the movement phase - after the end of the phase. it's not because the end of the phase is not part of the phase.
Logic alone should point out your fallacy - "end of the phase" still has to be part of the phase, it can't be after the phase because then the end of the phase would come after the end of the phase, and logically it can't come after itself. Yet this is what you are going when you say the end of the phase is not part of the phase.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/18 15:39:35
2018/04/18 17:42:58
Subject: Stratagems at the end of your turn - not in a phase?
torblind wrote: Haven't read all referenced material, but, end of turn you calculate your VP winnings for that turn. That's certainly not in the psychic phase, so a stratagem happening end of turn should be between phases then?
The end of your turn is the same as the end of the Morale Phase.
Clearly incorrect .
DFTT
2018/04/18 17:50:11
Subject: Stratagems at the end of your turn - not in a phase?
torblind wrote: Haven't read all referenced material, but, end of turn you calculate your VP winnings for that turn. That's certainly not in the psychic phase, so a stratagem happening end of turn should be between phases then?
The end of your turn is the same as the end of the Morale Phase.
Clearly incorrect .
I agree that sounds weird, surely you'd need to complete all phases before you can do such a thing as scoring tactical objectives? Since that doesn't have its own phase, it must happen at end of turn which then makes it something that is not in a phase.
2018/04/18 21:13:49
Subject: Stratagems at the end of your turn - not in a phase?
JakeSiren wrote: Yes. I think you see what I'm saying. As "at the end of the movement phase" is not counted as "during" the phase you don't have the restriction of Strategic Discipline and thus can play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times in matched play.
No, that is not how it works at all...
The end of the movement phase is still the movement phase.
Yes, correct, but it's not during the movement phase. Or are you suggesting that you can play "during" stratagems at the end of the phase?
You're wilfully ignoring what we have already told you. The FAQ isn't saying the end of the phase is not during the phase, it is saying that you can't use stratagems after things happen at the end of the phase, because if you do then the things that were supposed to happen at the end of the phase did not happen at the end of the phase and thus were illegally done.
No, I'm applying the logical conclusion of the faq.
Your view appears to be that the end of the phase is an instant point in time that you sequence out. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
To play both Stratagem A and Stratagem B at the end of the phase, and to have reinforcements come in you would need to use the sequencing the rules. You could sequence in any combination, but let's say you decide that Strategem A gets resolved first. You then bring in your unit of reinforcements. Then chose to resolve Stratagem B.
According to you the "end of the phase" is also "during the phase". This means that Stratagem B could be a "during the movement phase" Stratagem as it fulfills the activation requirements. The FAQ says that we can't use the "during the movement phase" stratagem on reinforcements. But why? The only logical explanation I can come up with is that in fact the "end of the phase" is not "during" that phase.
If you can come up with a logical and rules consistent alternative I would love to hear it, but saying "it doesn't work that way" without explanation or rules is nothing but hot air.
Your argument about sequencing stratagems at the end of the phase along with anything else that has to happen at the end of the phase was the argument that people had been trying to use in order to use a stratagem on a unit that had just arrived from Reserves, by saying you're using the stratagem at the end of the phase and are sequencing it so that the unit arriving from reserves happens first. GW has shut that down completely with their FAQ answer. Basically they are saying you don't get to sequence stratagems at the end of a phase unless the stratagem states that it happens at the end of the phase or triggers off of something that happens then (like getting to shoot at a unit that just arrived from Reserves).
What you are trying to do is the complete antithesis of what they are saying - you want to sequence infinite stratagems in there when they said "no, you can't do that, you can't play stratagems after something that's supposed to happen at the end of the phase." The inference you need to take from it is that you don't get to use stratagems at the end of a phase unless the stratagem tells you that you can do so.
I think your argument is confused, or you haven't articulated it fully. Your first and second paragraphs seem to be in disagreement as to how you play stratagems "at the end of the movement phase" and what is permitted.
For clarity GW have specifically shutdown playing "during your movement phase" stratagems "at the end of the movement phase" on units that have arrived from reserve. Nor was I arguing that we should be able to play any "during" stratagems "at the end".
For a Stratagem to be played you need to meet the criteria for playing it. For our discussions either "during the movement phase" or "at the end of the movement phase". If we have multiple "at the end of the movement phase" stratagems we are then allowed to sequence them with other "at the end of the movement phase" actions as you have rightly identified in your first paragraph. We are unable to play any "during the movement phase" stratagems as it is no longer "during the movement phase". This is where you have your disconnect however.
At this point I want to quote strategic discipline for you:
BRB wrote:The same Strategem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase. This does not affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used 'before the battle begins' or 'at the end of a battle round'
If we say "at the end of the movement phase" is considered to be during the movement phase then Strategic Discipline applies. But it also allows us to play stratagems that occur "during the movement phase".
If we say "at the end of the movement phase" is NOT considered to be during the movement phase then Strategic Discipline does not apply. But it also prevents us from playing any stratagems that occur "during the movement phase".
You want "at the end of the movement phase" to be both during and not during the movement phase - during for the purpose of Strategic Discipline, and not during for Strategem use. This is not supported by the rules.
Games Workshop have ruled that you can't play "during the movement phase" stratagems at "the end of the movement phase". Why? I put forwards the reasonable argument that "the end of the movement phase" is not during the movement phase. This in turn means that strategic discipline does not apply and you can play a "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem as many times as you would like.
Basically they are saying you don't get to sequence stratagems at the end of a phase unless the stratagem states that it happens at the end of the phase or triggers off of something that happens then (like getting to shoot at a unit that just arrived from Reserves). If you have multiple stratagems that say they are played at the end of the phase then you play them then.
As BCB has indicated, however, the end of a phase is still part of the phase, so you can't play the same stratagem multiple times. They don't let you play "during the phase" stratagems after something that happens at the end of the phase because then you would be trying to play it after the movement phase - after the end of the phase. it's not because the end of the phase is not part of the phase.
You are looking at the result of the FAQ, but not the why of the FAQ. This specific FAQ item has not changed any of the rules, rather it provides clarity on how the rules should be played.
We agree on the first point - that the FAQ clarifies that you can't play any "during the movement phase" stratagems "at the end of the movement phase". You can sequence any number of "at the end of the movement phase" stratagems and actions that you can legally play.
That was the result. Now, on to the why. What in the rules would prevent you from playing any during the movement phase stratagems at the end of the movement phase? Keeping in mind that none of the rules have changed, we have only one possibility, that the end of the movement phase is not considered during the movement phase. Otherwise if we considered at the end to be during the phase then we would meet the conditions for playing a "during the movement phase" stratagem.
Logic alone should point out your fallacy - "end of the phase" still has to be part of the phase, it can't be after the phase because then the end of the phase would come after the end of the phase, and logically it can't come after itself. Yet this is what you are going when you say the end of the phase is not part of the phase.
That's not my argument at all. "End of the phase" is still a part of the phase, just not "during" it.
2018/04/18 21:54:49
Subject: Stratagems at the end of your turn - not in a phase?
The FAQ just adds a stipulation to stop you using Movement Phase Stratagems on units arriving via special means. No more to it than that. No patterns to be seen. No inferences for elsewhere. Just a specific restriction to close what GW felt was an exploit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/18 21:55:06
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
2018/04/18 22:35:21
Subject: Stratagems at the end of your turn - not in a phase?
JohnnyHell wrote: The FAQ just adds a stipulation to stop you using Movement Phase Stratagems on units arriving via special means. No more to it than that. No patterns to be seen. No inferences for elsewhere. Just a specific restriction to close what GW felt was an exploit.
What evidence do you have that this is the case? How do you determine which FAQ's fall under rules modification and which don't? Or more specifically, do you apply FAQs to the specific situation they are referring to, or try to understand them in the broader context so that you can apply them to similar situations?
Unless I'm mistaken a FAQ is not a change in rules, it is the rules writers saying "under our assumptions this is the result we get"
Or if you like algebra: rules + assumptions = result
We know the rules, and we know what the result is, what we are missing is what assumptions the rules writers are making. Which then begs the question: what assumptions do we have to make to have the rules function in this way?
If you are able to provide your assumptions supported by evidence then I would like to hear them.
The start of your turn is the start of your movement phase, there isn't a bit "before" the movement phase.
