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Captyn_Bob wrote:
But of course, we have had it confirmed in the rules themselves that end of battle round is an example of a non phase specific time that stratagems can be used multiple times. And of course there is no end of battle round phase . So maybe we can use more sensible definitions, like if it isn't called a phase then it's not a phase. Rather than saying something is a phase, despite no guidance to do so.

A single specific instruction is not a blanket instruction.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
But of course, we have had it confirmed in the rules themselves that end of battle round is an example of a non phase specific time that stratagems can be used multiple times. And of course there is no end of battle round phase . So maybe we can use more sensible definitions, like if it isn't called a phase then it's not a phase. Rather than saying something is a phase, despite no guidance to do so.

A single specific instruction is not a blanket instruction.

Ignoring the only guidance we have seems counter intuitive to problem solving.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
But of course, we have had it confirmed in the rules themselves that end of battle round is an example of a non phase specific time that stratagems can be used multiple times. And of course there is no end of battle round phase . So maybe we can use more sensible definitions, like if it isn't called a phase then it's not a phase. Rather than saying something is a phase, despite no guidance to do so.

A single specific instruction is not a blanket instruction.

Ignoring the only guidance we have seems counter intuitive to problem solving.

It's not an applicable instruction. Your logic is like taking the rule that a 1 always misses and saying "therefore a 6 must always hit."

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
But of course, we have had it confirmed in the rules themselves that end of battle round is an example of a non phase specific time that stratagems can be used multiple times. And of course there is no end of battle round phase . So maybe we can use more sensible definitions, like if it isn't called a phase then it's not a phase. Rather than saying something is a phase, despite no guidance to do so.

A single specific instruction is not a blanket instruction.

Ignoring the only guidance we have seems counter intuitive to problem solving.

It's not an applicable instruction. Your logic is like taking the rule that a 1 always misses and saying "therefore a 6 must always hit."

Ah the ubsurd equivalence example. I'm honoured.

 DeathReaper wrote:

torblind wrote:
Pretty much? So its a no then?

If you have to do one before the other, then they're not done on the same time, and then arguably "start of turn" isn't in the beginning of the movement phase.

Except if there is now also special stuff that happens in the beginning of the movement phase only it happens before all the stuff that usually happens in the beginning of the movement phase.

There is no start of turn phase...

The start of the turn is not a separate thing, (Unless you have a rules citation that states otherwise) it just happens when you start your turn, and the first thing you do when you start your turn is the movement phase.

Right so things that happen in beginning of movement phase and things that happen in start of turn, I can mix match the order in which I do those? Of course I can't.

Stratagems at the start of your turn are not in a Phase.
Stratagems at the end of your turn are not in a Phase.
Stratagems at the end of the Movement Phase are in a Phase but have some new FAQ restrictions.

torblind wrote:
Right so things that happen in beginning of movement phase and things that happen in start of turn, I can mix match the order in which I do those? Of course I can't.

Of course not. The start of the turn strats happen, then start of the movement phase strats happen. If you try to use start of the movement phase strats then try to use start of the turn strats you cant as it is no longer the start of the turn as you have used a strat that happens in the movement phase...

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
But of course, we have had it confirmed in the rules themselves that end of battle round is an example of a non phase specific time that stratagems can be used multiple times. And of course there is no end of battle round phase . So maybe we can use more sensible definitions, like if it isn't called a phase then it's not a phase. Rather than saying something is a phase, despite no guidance to do so.

A single specific instruction is not a blanket instruction.

Ignoring the only guidance we have seems counter intuitive to problem solving.

There is also the argument that "Each turn consists of a series of phases" without a mention of before or after could also be guidance.

But, that end of turn bit is a precedent that can be used for other end of turn things, and for start of turn before the movement phase starts. GW really should formally point out that stratagems can be used there out of turn.

Just as a note, I don't see you getting to claim you can use a stratagem between phasses an infinite number of times - one phase goes to the other until you hit the end of the turn. GW has treated start and end of turns as something different historically.

 DeathReaper wrote:

torblind wrote:
Right so things that happen in beginning of movement phase and things that happen in start of turn, I can mix match the order in which I do those? Of course I can't.

Of course not. The start of the turn strats happen, then start of the movement phase strats happen. Iif you try to use start of the movement phase strats then try to use start of the turn strats you cant as it is no longer the start of the turn as you have used a strat that happens in the movement phase...

I'm simply making the case that start of the turn isnt in the movement phase, it isn't in any phase, and as such the once-per-phase limitation for stratagems is not in effect.

You cannot start your turn without entering the movement phase. It is not possible.

Once the game starts you are always in one of the phases numbered 1-6. The rules specifically say that a turn is constructed with phases.

How then is it possible for a stratagem to be used during the game but outside a phase?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
How then is it possible for a stratagem to be used during the game but outside a phase?

It would have to have a unique rule specifically instructing you to act in a way that contradicts the rules.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
How then is it possible for a stratagem to be used during the game but outside a phase?

It would have to have a unique rule specifically instructing you to act in a way that contradicts the rules.

what about the start of the battle round?

Drager wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
How then is it possible for a stratagem to be used during the game but outside a phase?

It would have to have a unique rule specifically instructing you to act in a way that contradicts the rules.

what about the start of the battle round?

Start of the battle round is the start of the movement phase for the first player. Unless you can point to a definition of start of the battle round that specifically says it happens outside of the movement phase in a general sense. And in that eventuality it would only be in the context of the ability / stratagem/etc that it would be referencing.

 Marmatag wrote:

Drager wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
How then is it possible for a stratagem to be used during the game but outside a phase?

It would have to have a unique rule specifically instructing you to act in a way that contradicts the rules.

what about the start of the battle round?

Start of the battle round is the start of the movement phase for the first player. Unless you can point to a definition of start of the battle round that specifically says it happens outside of the movement phase in a general sense. And in that eventuality it would only be in the context of the ability / stratagem/etc that it would be referencing.

BRB wrote: The same Strategem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase. This does not affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used 'before the battle begins' or 'at the end of a battle round'

"Before the battle begins" is before anyone has a turn. Start of the battle round is fundamentally different.

The end of a battle round is a bit nebulous. This is referencing unique rules that are intended to be played outside of phase - in this case, something that says it is played at the end of a battle round is given special treatment.

In this case, specific overrides general.

These are given as examples though, not as a complete list or specific exception. I don't see a good reason to think that what of a battle round and end should be treated differently.

“Play at start / end of turn Stratagems” are not being used in a Phase.

 Marmatag wrote:
You cannot start your turn without entering the movement phase. It is not possible.

You are wrong. Necrons use their MWBD at the start of your turn, not at the start of the movement phase. They regain a lost wound from living metal at the start of your turn, not at the start of the movement phase. They roll for RP at the start of your turn, not at the start of the movement phase. This proves that there is a point of time in the game outside of a phase.

The movement phase starts when you pick a unit and move the models. This is written in the core rules :

Start your Movement phase by picking
one of your units and moving each model
in that unit until you’ve moved all the
models you want to.

 Marmatag wrote:

Once the game starts you are always in one of the phases numbered 1-6. The rules specifically say that a turn is constructed with phases.

No. There are moments in the game where you are outside of a phase. The BRB gives two explicit examples on pg. 215. strategic discipline.

BRB update 1.3 confirms that deployment is outside of a phase :

Q: Is the Deployment step of a mission considered to be a ‘phase’
for the purposes of rules?
A: No.

Once again this proves that there are points of time in the game where you are not always in one of the phases 1-6.

And the game starts with deployment. BRB update 1.3 :

Q: Certain abilities and Stratagems are used ‘before the battle’.
When specifically is this?
A: The game begins when players start the Deployment
step of a mission – all abilities and Stratagems that are
used ‘before the battle’ must be used before then.

At first I was like; “this question is dumb, of course you can’t use the stratagem multiple times.”

After reading the thread now I’m like; “hmm, RAW doesn’t seem very clear anymore.”

I think the intent is that the stratagem interacts in the same way as every other one that has a similar ability in that it can only be used once but I get the argument either way.

Personally I’m edging toward the case that ‘the start of your round is also a phase’ but it’s only very slightly.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
At first I was like; “this question is dumb, of course you can’t use the stratagem multiple times.”

After reading the thread now I’m like; “hmm, RAW doesn’t seem very clear anymore.”

I think the intent is that the stratagem interacts in the same way as every other one that has a similar ability in that it can only be used once but I get the argument either way.

Personally I’m edging toward the case that ‘the start of your round is also a phase’ but it’s only very slightly.

Well the BRB is quite clear about there being 5 phases and 5 only.

Either case, 4CP to play ut twice is quite costly, would it be worth it?