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I deepstrike - Inceptors, Termis, Tzaangors, Rubrics, Scarabs, Pinks, Flamers, Hades breaching Drills, flanking deathriders and dagger-of-tsu'kah Krieg engineers. Of that list, I think only pinks will be unfazed by the beta rules, as they tend to be a second-wave board domination unit for me anyway.

I'll probably still include some form of Deep Strike unit, I find the tactical flexibility of it very useful.

I think a better question would be: does your list rely on Deepstrike? I'm sure people wouldn't mind the beta rules if it just meant one of their support units would have to wait a turn to come in but for Daemons or Tyranids it's a much bigger problem.

 grouchoben wrote:
I deepstrike - Inceptors, Termis, Tzaangors, Rubrics, Scarabs, Pinks, Flamers, Hades breaching Drills, flanking deathriders and dagger-of-tsu'kah Krieg engineers. Of that list, I think only pinks will be unfazed by the beta rules, as they tend to be a second-wave board domination unit for me anyway.

The no warp time DS certainly hampered the thought of Flamer Rubrics. Not that it was going to bring a ton to the table as it was. I almost never dropped my Scarabs turn 1 so they're still happy.


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 mrhappyface wrote:
I think a better question would be: does your list rely on Deepstrike? I'm sure people wouldn't mind the beta rules if it just meant one of their support units would have to wait a turn to come in but for Daemons or Tyranids it's a much bigger problem.

Perhaps, but then again we saw so little diversity from those lists, because they went straight to deepstriking everything.

 daedalus wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Of course I deep strike, until astra militarum ceases to exist we have to deep strike in order to survive turn 1 shooting.

Figure out how you're going to deal with the beta rule yet? I don't really have a solution at this point.

Good thing the GK was the one army I WASN'T planning on selling ever. I'd imagine they're not worth the shipping right now.

I quit playing GK even casually a long time ago, honestly.

I ran them by deep striking Draigo between two storm ravens. I suppose i would do something similar, where I use gate of infinity to launch Draigo between them for rerolls.

I would have a character cast astral aim on a 4x lascannon land raider. Entire strategy is do literally as much as you can turn 1 with 3x Ravens, Draigo, and 4 lascannons from a land raider. Hope it's enough! Turn 1 you'll put out an expected 64 bolter hits, 32 assault cannon hits, 5 missile hits, and 5 multi-melta hits. Then you've got 4 lascannons rerolling 1s ignoring cover.

The rest of my list would be assassins, arriving turn 2.

Tyranids so yes, though seldom on the first turn so the changes don't harm me in the least

I play Nids, and popping out of tunnels is what we do! I'm not sure how this will effect Nids long term. But Hive Fleets like Behemoth are built around awesome DS trix...so I don't know what a mid power Fleet will look now.


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pinecone77 wrote:
I play Nids, and popping out of tunnels is what we do! I'm not sure how this will effect Nids long term. But Hive Fleets like Behemoth are built around awesome DS trix...so I don't know what a mid power Fleet will look at now.

Find I'n dropping Rippers and Raveners about turn two or three anyway once the enemy has moved a bit and whats left backfield is best described as "unguarded lunch".

Gargoyles drop better in a big brick once stuff has kindly moved to make space.

T1 deep strikes was more about dropping 9" in front of an advancing enemy, but only matters when going second

The question for Tyranids is really, how do you get Synapse coverage for your faster models? It's not as simple as you might think now that you can't deep strike Tyrants.

I play Nephrekh Necrons, so deep striking destroyers are a pretty fundamental part of my list. Needing to wait till turn two to deploy them isn't the end of the world for me.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I play Nephrekh Necrons, so deep striking destroyers are a pretty fundamental part of my list. Needing to wait till turn two to deploy them isn't the end of the world for me.

Sorry my Necron rules-by-name association isn't that great. Are you referring to the rule that allows you to move D3 units anywhere on the board after deployment? Because if so, i believe that would still be allowed, because they already arrived on the battlefield via traditional deployment. Da Jump and GOI should still be allowed as well, for the same reason.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I play Nephrekh Necrons, so deep striking destroyers are a pretty fundamental part of my list. Needing to wait till turn two to deploy them isn't the end of the world for me.

Sorry my Necron rules-by-name association isn't that great. Are you referring to the rule that allows you to move D3 units anywhere on the board after deployment? Because if so, i believe that would still be allowed, because they already arrived on the battlefield via traditional deployment. Da Jump and GOI should still be allowed as well, for the same reason.

No, that's the C'tan Shard of the Deceiver's Grand Illusion rule. Nephrekh is the dynasty that gets the chaos daemons deep strike stratagem as their dynasty-specific strat.

 Marmatag wrote:
The question for Tyranids is really, how do you get Synapse coverage for your faster models? It's not as simple as you might think now that you can't deep strike Tyrants.

Depends what the deep strikers are tasked with

small unit of rippers I don't worry about, they will be going for whatever is nearest anyway, or making for an objective then hiding - any serious opposition will kill them outright.

ditto a small ravener unit really, both can operate fine without Synapse as there are seldom enough left to test for morale anyway if something serious focuses on them.

The gargoyles are more of a problem but tend to be dropping T2 or T3 when my synapse units have advanced.

Mawloc is a single model and doesn't care either way

Synapse isn't anything like as vital on small units as it used to be

leopard wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The question for Tyranids is really, how do you get Synapse coverage for your faster models? It's not as simple as you might think now that you can't deep strike Tyrants.

Depends what the deep strikers are tasked with

small unit of rippers I don't worry about, they will be going for whatever is nearest anyway, or making for an objective then hiding - any serious opposition will kill them outright.

ditto a small ravener unit really, both can operate fine without Synapse as there are seldom enough left to test for morale anyway if something serious focuses on them.

The gargoyles are more of a problem but tend to be dropping T2 or T3 when my synapse units have advanced.

Mawloc is a single model and doesn't care either way

Synapse isn't anything like as vital on small units as it used to be

You play tyranids fundamentally different than i do. I do not run Mawlocs, Gargoyles, etc. I do run rippers, but i have never cared if they have synapse or not.


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 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I play Nephrekh Necrons, so deep striking destroyers are a pretty fundamental part of my list. Needing to wait till turn two to deploy them isn't the end of the world for me.

Sorry my Necron rules-by-name association isn't that great. Are you referring to the rule that allows you to move D3 units anywhere on the board after deployment? Because if so, i believe that would still be allowed, because they already arrived on the battlefield via traditional deployment. Da Jump and GOI should still be allowed as well, for the same reason.

No, that's the C'tan Shard of the Deceiver's Grand Illusion rule. Nephrekh is the dynasty that gets the chaos daemons deep strike stratagem as their dynasty-specific strat.

Ah, got it. Yeah this rule definitely impacts you, but not as much as i'd say it impacts armies like Daemons, who need to be closer, and are more able to split their force.

 Marmatag wrote:

leopard wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The question for Tyranids is really, how do you get Synapse coverage for your faster models? It's not as simple as you might think now that you can't deep strike Tyrants.

Depends what the deep strikers are tasked with

small unit of rippers I don't worry about, they will be going for whatever is nearest anyway, or making for an objective then hiding - any serious opposition will kill them outright.

ditto a small ravener unit really, both can operate fine without Synapse as there are seldom enough left to test for morale anyway if something serious focuses on them.

The gargoyles are more of a problem but tend to be dropping T2 or T3 when my synapse units have advanced.

Mawloc is a single model and doesn't care either way

Synapse isn't anything like as vital on small units as it used to be

You play tyranids fundamentally different than i do. I do not run Mawlocs, Gargoyles, etc. I do run rippers, but i have never cared if they have synapse or not.

sounds similar with rippers, I just use other units the same way - have seen them played where synapse is critical, and for my home field units (larger formations of homies, termies, stealers etc) its critical - I just tend not to deep strike them, largely because of the issues around getting synapse to them

I also only have one flagrant, because I like the model, seldom the warlord though as he dies way too fast

people should play this for a bit before jumping to conclusions. I personally think its a good change but there is no way to know exactly how the meta will develop with the change. Id say people should play some games with it lets a few major tournaments happen then see what they think....... You know like the entire point of having the rule drop as a Beta

 techsoldaten wrote:
I have been using deep striking Obliterators (and sometimes Terminators) in one of my lists. The beta rules say they won't be able to come in turn one anymore, so I think I will stop playing them.

It's sad. I started using them because friends were complaining about my other list, the one with 25 lascannons. The problem was with what happens first turn, I would just shoot up all my opponents tanks and force him to footslog with anything on the board.

So I was using deep striking units to tone down my gunline. Both of them had a big impact first turn, now the rules say only one of them works.

Deep striking units can still come in turn one. However they must drop inside your deployment zone if they drop in first turn. Second turn they can drop in anywhere 9 inches away from enemy models just like normal.

The only unit in my army that can deepstrike has 6" and 8" range weapons. So thatd be a "no".

Looking at the votes; 137 to 32, it shows WHY it got nerfed.

If people were relying so much on it to do damage and win, then obviously it was an issue that made the game worse. I was guilty of it too; I felt like I had to deep strike something to have my opponent try and shoot at that rather than the bulk of my army, or I'd get destroyed.

If anything, this just makes me take things that are more durable, and quicker options; things like bloat drones, mortarion, etc. just got wayyyyy better compared to other options for the Death Guard. Slaneesh now can find its stride (even though I hate it...). I don't like that some armies suffer more than others (Khorne Demons, for example) but they will adapt like everyone else, and find what works and what doesn't work.

 Zid wrote:
Looking at the votes; 137 to 32, it shows WHY it got nerfed.

If people were relying so much on it to do damage and win, then obviously it was an issue that made the game worse. I was guilty of it too; I felt like I had to deep strike something to have my opponent try and shoot at that rather than the bulk of my army, or I'd get destroyed.

There's a difference between armies that use Deepstrike on a unit or 2 for utility purposes and armies that actually rely on Deepstrike to be able to compete.


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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
I think a better question would be: does your list rely on Deepstrike? I'm sure people wouldn't mind the beta rules if it just meant one of their support units would have to wait a turn to come in but for Daemons or Tyranids it's a much bigger problem.

Perhaps, but then again we saw so little diversity from those lists, because they went straight to deepstriking everything.

Maybe making the rest of the codex viable without Deepstrike would have helped variety.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Maybe making the rest of the codex viable without Deepstrike would have helped variety.

I'm a little doubtful that people tried all that hard once they saw that stratagem. There are definitely flaws to deal with.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Zid wrote:
Looking at the votes; 137 to 32, it shows WHY it got nerfed.

If people were relying so much on it to do damage and win, then obviously it was an issue that made the game worse. I was guilty of it too; I felt like I had to deep strike something to have my opponent try and shoot at that rather than the bulk of my army, or I'd get destroyed.

There's a difference between armies that use Deepstrike on a unit or 2 for utility purposes and armies that actually rely on Deepstrike to be able to compete.


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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
I think a better question would be: does your list rely on Deepstrike? I'm sure people wouldn't mind the beta rules if it just meant one of their support units would have to wait a turn to come in but for Daemons or Tyranids it's a much bigger problem.

Perhaps, but then again we saw so little diversity from those lists, because they went straight to deepstriking everything.

Maybe making the rest of the codex viable without Deepstrike would have helped variety.

Well they made deep striking TOO powerful, so they throttled it back. Its still better than rolling in reserves, scattering deepstrikes, etc. Delaying it one turn does make the game slow down slightly, and it makes peoples lists less of a "one trick pony." It would be like be complaining they ruined poxwalkers, or now I can't warptime after deep striking so half my units don't work. They made balance tweeks to patch stuff that was overly powerful and detrimental to the game. People complained that the games were ending by turn 2 or 3 because damage was outrageous...

 Zid wrote:
Well they made deep striking TOO powerful, so they throttled it back. Its still better than rolling in reserves, scattering deepstrikes, etc. Delaying it one turn does make the game slow down slightly, and it makes peoples lists less of a "one trick pony." It would be like be complaining they ruined poxwalkers, or now I can't warptime after deep striking so half my units don't work. They made balance tweeks to patch stuff that was overly powerful and detrimental to the game. People complained that the games were ending by turn 2 or 3 because damage was outrageous...

These changes don't exactly drop the damage of shooting armies do they though?


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 Daedalus81 wrote:
I'm a little doubtful that people tried all that hard once they saw that stratagem. There are definitely flaws to deal with.

Have you tried to make a foot slogging Khorne Daemons army? Hounds no longer get a scout move so Juggernaughts with banners is the only turn 1 charge you can possibly get but they're damned expensive and the first turn charge only happens ~9% of the time with re-rolls. And if you don't get a first turn charge, your units aren't likely to survive to weight of fire when most things only have a 5++

 Zid wrote:
Looking at the votes; 137 to 32, it shows WHY it got nerfed.

If people were relying so much on it to do damage and win, then obviously it was an issue that made the game worse. I was guilty of it too; I felt like I had to deep strike something to have my opponent try and shoot at that rather than the bulk of my army, or I'd get destroyed.

If anything, this just makes me take things that are more durable, and quicker options; things like bloat drones, mortarion, etc. just got wayyyyy better compared to other options for the Death Guard. Slaneesh now can find its stride (even though I hate it...). I don't like that some armies suffer more than others (Khorne Demons, for example) but they will adapt like everyone else, and find what works and what doesn't work.

Come on dude - what if you asked how many people use las cannons or plasma guns and you'd get the same answer. It's a core mechanic of the game. It has been destroyed. Gun line reigns supreme - even though everyone is doing well with lascannons already.

 Zid wrote:
Looking at the votes; 137 to 32, it shows WHY it got nerfed.

If people were relying so much on it to do damage and win, then obviously it was an issue that made the game worse. I was guilty of it too; I felt like I had to deep strike something to have my opponent try and shoot at that rather than the bulk of my army, or I'd get destroyed.

If anything, this just makes me take things that are more durable, and quicker options; things like bloat drones, mortarion, etc. just got wayyyyy better compared to other options for the Death Guard. Slaneesh now can find its stride (even though I hate it...). I don't like that some armies suffer more than others (Khorne Demons, for example) but they will adapt like everyone else, and find what works and what doesn't work.

I should make a post asking if players that field terminators use deep strike (which is why I voted yes). I bet even a larger portion of them do so. Obviously, we need to nerf terminators...

Or perhaps you missed a couple of steps to reach that conclusion.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Zid wrote:
Looking at the votes; 137 to 32, it shows WHY it got nerfed.

If people were relying so much on it to do damage and win, then obviously it was an issue that made the game worse. I was guilty of it too; I felt like I had to deep strike something to have my opponent try and shoot at that rather than the bulk of my army, or I'd get destroyed.

If anything, this just makes me take things that are more durable, and quicker options; things like bloat drones, mortarion, etc. just got wayyyyy better compared to other options for the Death Guard. Slaneesh now can find its stride (even though I hate it...). I don't like that some armies suffer more than others (Khorne Demons, for example) but they will adapt like everyone else, and find what works and what doesn't work.

Come on dude - what if you asked how many people use las cannons or plasma guns and you'd get the same answer. It's a core mechanic of the game. It has been destroyed. Gun line reigns supreme - even though everyone is doing well with lascannons already.

I don't know what you're talking about, in all my years playing Necrons I've never put a lascannon in my list.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Have you tried to make a foot slogging Khorne Daemons army? Hounds no longer get a scout move so Juggernaughts with banners is the only turn 1 charge you can possibly get but they're damned expensive and the first turn charge only happens ~9% of the time with re-rolls. And if you don't get a first turn charge, your units aren't likely to survive to weight of fire when most things only have a 5++

I decimated them even with the bomb, because they couldn't get through chaff.

This is 13CP. More than enough to slap a 4++ on the bloodthirster who has a 6+++. Daemonic possession to pick out unlucky casters. As well as adding Crimson Crown to the Blood Throne.

There will be far fewer mortars kicking around. Bloodthirsters can get up fast and tie up small guns. Once the Bloodletters get there they can hunt big stuff. The warlord can take a full round from 5 manticores and 2 command tanks with BCs and still be at half - add another BT and a Soulgrinder to deal with.

BATTALION
340 bloodthirster insensate, armor of scorn, oblivious to pain
340 bloodthirster insensate

178 24 bloodletters, instrument
178 24 bloodletters, instrument
150 20 bloodletters, instrument

75 5 flesh hounds

BATTALION
84 skulltaker
105 blood throne

70 10 bloodletters
70 10 bloodletters
70 10 bloodletters

235 soul grinder, harvester, phlegm, iron claw, warpclaw
100 skullcannon

Honestly it rewards bad deployment better. If they can't be on your side of the table, you have plenty of time to move something else there.

Do I deepstrike?

'Laughs in genestealer cult'

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Zid wrote:
Well they made deep striking TOO powerful, so they throttled it back. Its still better than rolling in reserves, scattering deepstrikes, etc. Delaying it one turn does make the game slow down slightly, and it makes peoples lists less of a "one trick pony." It would be like be complaining they ruined poxwalkers, or now I can't warptime after deep striking so half my units don't work. They made balance tweeks to patch stuff that was overly powerful and detrimental to the game. People complained that the games were ending by turn 2 or 3 because damage was outrageous...

These changes don't exactly drop the damage of shooting armies do they though?


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 Daedalus81 wrote:
I'm a little doubtful that people tried all that hard once they saw that stratagem. There are definitely flaws to deal with.

Have you tried to make a foot slogging Khorne Daemons army? Hounds no longer get a scout move so Juggernaughts with banners is the only turn 1 charge you can possibly get but they're damned expensive and the first turn charge only happens ~9% of the time with re-rolls. And if you don't get a first turn charge, your units aren't likely to survive to weight of fire when most things only have a 5++

Pray tell.... what exact list, thats a gunline, dominates currently or will dominate without deepstrike?

Many missions, regardless of ITC or not, are victory points based. If a gunline doesn't move, it can't win on objectives. Only a few models in the game can shoot outside LOS, and unless your playing on a barren wasteland of a field, you should be able to hide and jump around.


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 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 Zid wrote:
Looking at the votes; 137 to 32, it shows WHY it got nerfed.

If people were relying so much on it to do damage and win, then obviously it was an issue that made the game worse. I was guilty of it too; I felt like I had to deep strike something to have my opponent try and shoot at that rather than the bulk of my army, or I'd get destroyed.

If anything, this just makes me take things that are more durable, and quicker options; things like bloat drones, mortarion, etc. just got wayyyyy better compared to other options for the Death Guard. Slaneesh now can find its stride (even though I hate it...). I don't like that some armies suffer more than others (Khorne Demons, for example) but they will adapt like everyone else, and find what works and what doesn't work.

I should make a post asking if players that field terminators use deep strike (which is why I voted yes). I bet even a larger portion of them do so. Obviously, we need to nerf terminators...

Or perhaps you missed a couple of steps to reach that conclusion.

I can see your point, and I used terminators. But even before this, they sucked.

Perhaps this is a precursor to improving or making terminators special in some way. My point is that, at least back when I played in 5th, deepstrikes supposed to be kind of special. Only a few armies do it with a majority of their army, as it is 8th has been "well, I need a unit or two to DS in and distract, or 1st turn charge, or...." It sucks for people who's whole strategy revolved around a single tactic, but its good for the health of the overall game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Zid wrote:
Looking at the votes; 137 to 32, it shows WHY it got nerfed.

If people were relying so much on it to do damage and win, then obviously it was an issue that made the game worse. I was guilty of it too; I felt like I had to deep strike something to have my opponent try and shoot at that rather than the bulk of my army, or I'd get destroyed.

If anything, this just makes me take things that are more durable, and quicker options; things like bloat drones, mortarion, etc. just got wayyyyy better compared to other options for the Death Guard. Slaneesh now can find its stride (even though I hate it...). I don't like that some armies suffer more than others (Khorne Demons, for example) but they will adapt like everyone else, and find what works and what doesn't work.

Come on dude - what if you asked how many people use las cannons or plasma guns and you'd get the same answer. It's a core mechanic of the game. It has been destroyed. Gun line reigns supreme - even though everyone is doing well with lascannons already.

What gunline is dominating pre-faq, and what about now?

Gun's have their place, but unless your playing on a barren wasteland, you shouldn't get blown off the board T1 anymore than you were getting charged by 60 bloodletters turn 1. Line of sight is a thing... movement is a thing....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Have you tried to make a foot slogging Khorne Daemons army? Hounds no longer get a scout move so Juggernaughts with banners is the only turn 1 charge you can possibly get but they're damned expensive and the first turn charge only happens ~9% of the time with re-rolls. And if you don't get a first turn charge, your units aren't likely to survive to weight of fire when most things only have a 5++

I decimated them even with the bomb, because they couldn't get through chaff.

This is 13CP. More than enough to slap a 4++ on the bloodthirster who has a 6+++. Daemonic possession to pick out unlucky casters. As well as adding Crimson Crown to the Blood Throne.

There will be far fewer mortars kicking around. Bloodthirsters can get up fast and tie up small guns. Once the Bloodletters get there they can hunt big stuff. The warlord can take a full round from 5 manticores and 2 command tanks with BCs and still be at half - add another BT and a Soulgrinder to deal with.

BATTALION
340 bloodthirster insensate, armor of scorn, oblivious to pain
340 bloodthirster insensate

178 24 bloodletters, instrument
178 24 bloodletters, instrument
150 20 bloodletters, instrument

75 5 flesh hounds

BATTALION
84 skulltaker
105 blood throne

70 10 bloodletters
70 10 bloodletters
70 10 bloodletters

235 soul grinder, harvester, phlegm, iron claw, warpclaw
100 skullcannon

Thank you for this Dae. You can win without deepstrike; we did in previous editions. 5th Deepstrike was good, but still risky, and not incredibly reliable, for shooting units. Now, you get a reliable deestrike you can charge out of, you just have to wait a turn to do it... dunno what all the fuss is about, and I play Daemons.