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I mean it was the same case when malfics were op. Every powergamer just had to spam them, just like every powergamer spams knights and or Rowboat and or knights. At this point we should just ban powergamers and hard lists, infact we should ban everything except tac marines and CSM. /S

 p5freak wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Show me what Forge World unit gives someone a 'significant advantage' and show me how Games Workshop has no models or rules that do the exact same thing elsewhere.

Are you going to sit here and insinuate that- GASP- 40k has armies that are vastly different and perform differently on the tabletop, and some have been given more than others? YOU DON'T SAY.

Go on, show me which Forge World models are 'game-breaking' and how GW has absolutely none of them.

JFC, you guys act like acquiring Forge World models requires you to be in the damned Illuminati or be a certain skin color.

Lets say you play eldar, and you built your army to stack negative to hit modifiers. You do your thing and say my grav tanks and my flyers are now -3 to hit. I come along with my relic sicaran battle tanks which ignores all modifiers to hit when attacking FLY units. I can even advance and shoot with its assault autocannon, which would be -4 to hit you. The sicaran gun ignores all of it. No GW model has an ability like that.
Or my relic contemptor dreadnought comes along, with its twin fists and twin assault plasma blastguns. And because i have twin fists i can re-roll hit rolls of 1. That means i can safely overcharge my plasma blastguns. No GW dread has an ability/gun combination like that.
Or how about my 5 assault drills pop out from the ground, dealing 5 MW to all enemy units within 12" ? Not only that, next turn my assault and/or devastator centurions pop out 3" away from it, move 4", and charge ? No GW transport can do that.
Or how about my 5 lucius pattern drop pods dropping dreads close to you ? No GW drop pod can do that.
Im pretty sure 3 dual storm cannon leviathans are devastating. There is no GW dread which comes even close to one of them.

Ok , let's see:
Your first exemple vs the Sicarian is basically: The really needed AA option vs the, what i atleast have dubbed, LOLZ you can't hit me army.
So this is a tank that is good against flyers and only really flyers. Suprprise surprise he can hit you. HOWEVER that tank costs barebones 160pts + an additional 75 for it's cannon. (btw that cannon has only 8 shots, if you army is in danger of beeing wiped out by 8 shots that ignore your spam of - bs then by god i can only say you fethed up in list building.)
Secondly so there is a option, which more or less shuts down an army, that is neither fair nor fun to play against, because literally 1/2 of the combat is not happening against anything that is not a space moron in a armour. So you would rather see such an army from GW, that literally makes the enemy skip a whole phase and then deny him the other pahse also because Eldarjetbikes. However i am certain that 8 shots alone are not enough to do that, and the Sicarian is not a freaking leman russ now isn't it? so even that point is moot because it can't shut down this army.
.

Oh and now comes the argument: their dreads are OP compared to normal dreads.
Tough luck, because GW dreads always were bad, well atleast in 5th and in 7th and now in 8th so long my memory serves right. However FW would not have been forced to release such dreads that way, which btw is highly arguable because the supposedly "way better" option comes with a pricetag that really, REALLY, hurts sometimes. So even that is arguable.
Heck even a Decimator is basically not jusifyable to take except when you spam soulburners, and that thing is in this case a glass cannon and needs constant babysitting frim a warpsmith to survive up to t3.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also GW has only Hydras as a AA option in the game, so basically every other faction that is not Chaos (needs to get through with a psytest and that certainly is no easy feat against an Eldar.) or Imperium can go feth themselves right when that Eldar army shows up?
Right sure, that makes for a fun match surely everybody in the shop will congratulate you for playing that Eldar Army.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the assult drill, experimental rules from FW / GW were always broken, i bet they will get FAQ'ed fast and hard, so just don't be "THAT GUY" and spam them when they are that broken atm.

Guess he got beaten by the opponent after playing that eldar army.
Quite frankly i can't blame his opponent for doing that, if of course it ever happened.

Actually isn't that the same way with the Sicarian?

 p5freak wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Ok , let's see:
Your first exemple vs the Sicarian is basically: The really needed AA option vs the, what i atleast have dubbed, LOLZ you can't hit me army.
So this is a tank that is good against flyers and only really flyers. Suprprise surprise he can hit you. HOWEVER that tank costs barebones 160pts + an additional 75 for it's cannon. (btw that cannon has only 8 shots, if you army is in danger of beeing wiped out by 8 shots that ignore your spam of - bs then by god i can only say you fethed up in list building.)
Secondly so there is a option, which more or less shuts down an army, that is neither fair nor fun to play against, because literally 1/2 of the combat is not happening against anything that is not a space moron in a armour. So you would rather see such an army from GW, that literally makes the enemy skip a whole phase and then deny him the other pahse also because Eldarjetbikes. However i am certain that 8 shots alone are not enough to do that, and the Sicarian is not a freaking leman russ now isn't it? so even that point is moot because it can't shut down this army.
.

The sicaran is only 165 pts. Its points were already changed in chapter approved. Read the rules Its ignore modifiers works against anything with the FLY keyword, not only flyers. And it can also shoot non-FLY units normally (no minus to hit, like the stalker for example), modifiers apply as usual.

Not Online!!! wrote:

As for the assult drill, experimental rules from FW / GW were always broken, i bet they will get FAQ'ed fast and hard, so just don't be "THAT GUY" and spam them when they are that broken atm.

Of course, FW is known for fixing broken rules fast


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Banville wrote:

3 Leviathan like that cost 1000 ish points. That's half your army. They should be devastating. Also, the Relic rule means you'll have to bring another 3 Heavy Support Choices just to balance them out.

3 leviathans with twin storm cannons are 927 pts. 3 dev squads with a HB are 225 pts. Balancing done.

So CA ( an offical FAQ/ balance update for the whole 40k game) changed the Sicarian and other FW units. Some were buffed (Sicarian) and some got nerfed, (Rip daemons). Considering that it was a balancing update what shows that?
It shows that such fly eldar armies are prevalent and they did choose an indirect way of nerving supersonic -bs spam.
Quite frankly that total reduction seems off, but there is certainly no blame to be put torwards FW, because CA got made by GW.
Now i also wonder are you going to ignore the rest of my argument or are you just further complaining, that it is somehow FW's fault that Sicarians are now to cheap even though it was GW that changed the point values?
Same goes for Malefic lords, except in the other direction, they are now beyond useless, so one is literally forced to play a RPC (Rogue Psyker Coven)
But sure blame FW for actually forcing you to play some different slots via the Relic / Hellforged system and therfore forcing you to lower the spam. When was the last time GW did something like that?
PS: A sicarian is still a Relic/ Hellforged option, so you will need additional points for additional choices, which may or may not be good enough, in this case your Eldar Cheedar still will survive an encounter, but myabee now you would have to take
some minis of the table like every other player has to.
PPS: So you also will likely complain about Hydras too, because they also get 1+ against everything with the fly keyword? Also agian a GW tank btw?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

http://www.3plusplus.net/2017/11/chapter-approved-points-leak/
So what does that mean, i wonder?
They did cut the cost for the accelerator cannon but making the Sicarians a bit more expensive. Still that is either a 155- 175 model and still only really usefull against "FLY" against everything else it bevaves like a predator with more dakka attached to it.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Complaining about a tank that negates nigh-unkillable units is more of a stab at GW, considering that they created the offending unit in the first place.

Forge World should be praised for creating a counter to Eldar unhittable units.

All praise be FW, for even when they feth up, GW does worse.
Praise be upon the mighty Sicaran, our saviour that got created by FW and made even more Op thanks to GW CA.


sorry, i just had to.

Actually i have an idea :
How about we make a collection of all Fw specific special rules army for army / model for model.
We mention each time what army has the rule (random leadership for R&H for exemple) and then go down.
Basically a really basic guide for FW rules and weaponry so that everyone can have access.
Not only would it stop cheating, no it would also make the bases of these armies and their playstyle open for all to get a grasp on the specific playstyle of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kroem wrote:

I've seen two widely different discussions go down in this thread. Well, more actually but two I really want to zoom in on because they were the ones that interacted with each other the most.

- Can you refuse a game against anyone you want for whatever reason you want?
- Are leviathans overpowered to the point that refusing a game because of them seems a valid choice.

The crux of this thread to me was highlighted by Sgt Smudge a couple pages back.

It effectively boils down to "Do I have to inform people I'm using Forgeworld because they are beyond to scope of GW rules, or do you have to inform me that you only like playing with X rules and not Y rules because Forgeworld and GW are all the same company"

Honestly I'm 70% sure it used to be an explicit rule that both players must agree to use Forgeworld, so I would definitely not egg a players house, desecrate their mothers grave, or whatever else has been proposed in this thread for treating this as a well established convention

I am not certain but didn't that get thrown over board when gw pushed LoW's?

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 p5freak wrote:


Lets say you play eldar, and you built your army to stack negative to hit modifiers....

Your complaint is that I can, at best, put down three tanks that can hit your modifier-spamming flyers.

Sorry, find a new tactic.

The main problem is not the tactic, the main problem is that Gw has overdone it with the abilities the eldar get.
However his complaint about a unit which has restrictions and is relatively expensive and does work as intended is Hollow in this case.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Darsath wrote:
Wow. OK, so there's a lot of strawmanning and ignorance happening in this thread, so I thought I would add fuel to the fire.

Firstly, I am anti-FW units in most games. It's pretty easy to see why actually. It can benefit certain armies much more than others, and widen the "choice gap", that is, the number of available, good units and army has from a gap to a chasm. It wouldn't make much sense to agree to a rule that gives your opponent a significant advantage over you in each game.

When the game allows you to build armies composed of basically any combination of units from any combination of factions, even in matched play, this line of thinking has long since passed being moot.

Secondly, we know that GW and FW don't communicate well between each other.

GW's main studio doesn't communicate well with itself half the time

Just look at some of the 8th ed launch rules from FW. They aren't really able ti include FW units in strategems and rules because GW designs their game around only GW units.

They don't have stratagems specific to FW units, but most FW units can make use of army stratagems just fine, they just don't get any special ones just like most units don't.

FW units to me are the same as adding superheavies, and should be saved for larger games.

So my Death Korps of Krieg grenadier army, Decimator walkers, Rapier batteries, Autocannon equipped Chimeras, formerly Codex Vendettas, etc only have a place in *huge* games?

Come on in,my renegade leman russ obviously is also just usefull for bigger matches, my Decimator certainly qualifies me for apocalypse no?

Bharring wrote:
So I can only bring Corsairs to huge games? So instead of being able to take ~600 pts in a 2k game, I need to face 4/5/6k points with that same ~600pts?

Ideally you are supposed to be outnumbered in points by around 25% CHAOS FW and by about 50% for xenos.
Didn't you know that?

w1zard wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
I expect the same policy to be applied to all other rules. If you don't give me an up front request/notification that you would like to use codex rules instead of the index rules then you are probably TFG. After all, codex rules are a major escalation in power and WAAC potential, and really just an expansion to the core of the game. And some armies don't even get codex rules at all, how is that fair? Plus they cost so much money and it's not reasonable to expect me to be familiar with them.

I don't think this analogy is entirely correct. It explicitly states in the core rulebook that the latest codex must be used for datasheets for your army outside of very specific circumstances. I've yet to see GW make an official announcement that "FW is a GW supported, and sponsored part of the game, and FW models/rules are fully intended to be used in matched play". TBH I don't have a problem with people using forgeworld against me so long as they have the book on them and show me the datasheet before deployment. But, many members of my gaming group refuse to play against forgeworld. Their reasoning being that those models are an optional expansion to the base WH40k game made by a different (related sure, but different) company, similar to something like the planetstrike or cities of death rulesets. You wouldn't show up to a game and spring "oh btw we are playing a planetstrike scenario" on your opponent would you?

that would be correct, were it not for the simple fact that CA literally has a whole dedicated part for the balance in 40k in regards to FW units.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Removing it doesn't automatically mean they went on to full inclusion. It could very well mean that they're back to the older way.

I'm checking the FW site now to see if they say anything there.

Again, if it were a seperate non mandatory expansion, would it be in CA?
Also the text in all fw books state that they are a part of Wh 40k.
Additionaly all links between Gw sites and Fw sites and Warhammer community site are connected......

 DominayTrix wrote:
*shrug* I would rather lose to a Forgeworld unit I have never played against because I didn't know what it does then to play yet another unimaginative soup list. I am much more likely to pass on a game if I see Imperial Guard and Death Company for example. Even more likely then that I would rather not play a mirror match. Variety is the spice of life.

I don't mind soup, aslong it is fluffy and not pure power.

 Mmmpi wrote:

This 'reputation' FW has is a mythology that frankly you're helping to perpetuate.

Honestly you're doing more of that than I am.

Your very own posted example does however, and I quote: "This unit is intended to be used in 'standard' games of Warhammer 40,000... ...as with all our models these should be considered 'official'".

Yeah, I take official to mean ready for use, and that standard games to mean that if you do use them, then they're compatible with the game types presented in the core rules, as opposed to special scenarios like Cities of Death, or Planet Strike.

It's not an expansion. Not at all. You're using the fact that the word 'expands' was used, (it does 'expand' upon a collection of data sheets - in the same way as any CODEX potential does), that word isn't intended to imply that the models constitute an optional, stand alone expansion to 40K. The context never implies that - as I think you well know. I feel you're being deliberately obtuse here.

I did point out that my sample codex example doesn't say it expands on anything, at least that I could find. So yes, it is an expansion.

You say suggestion, I say disclaimer. They felt the need to 'request' that people check ahead.

So again, back to reputation. Forgeworld has several. Forgeworld advocates have another. That they're WAAC, power gamers, cheater, ect, which feeds into the FW reputation that their stuff is overpowered because the FW stuff that people see tends to be the powerful stuff.

I'm going to take a second here to point out that I'm not accusing any of you of being power gamers, WAAC players, or cheaters, only that there's a perception of it about the FW community at large.

If you really want to get people on board with accepting the FW expansions, then maybe actually convincing people to try it, rather then calling them silly might be a way to do. You're working against a lot of perception, much of which has been earned by people taking advantage of the laxer rules writing from FW. Also, while you might consider someone's reason silly, they certainly do not. Most people I've met don't go "No ForgeWorld" because they don't think it's fair that you were able to buy it. They say it because they've been burned by people using it before, and that they can say no to an expansion.

It seems that you are willfully missinterpreting. It says that they are desgined and a part of 40k. literally, they are a 40 k army , it you like it or not is not up to debate.

You do realise that FW could have put that "disclaimer" up because FW isn't as mainstream as GW rules, however that does not mean that i have to ask you beforehand (i should, but i don't have to, I 'd also like to point out, that if i play certain armies or units which are way better then your Codex/ Index i should ask too, however i don't have to again, that is supposedly fine by you for whatever reason because it is not FW resin?).
Especially with the relatively recent adopted policy of GW, which even goes as far as putting changes of ALL FW units in CA, which is the offical "patch" so to speak of 40k therefore MANDATORY and OFFICIAL .

Also important on their webstore/ website, which all E-publications are (FAQ's) etc. which you would anyway visit, because it clarifies stuff, are all FAQ's from FW indexes and GW codexes / Indexes i wonder what that means that they SHARE ONE COMMON SITE WHICH YOU HAVE TO VISIT AND ARE ALL IN THE SAME CATEGORY.

As for the reputation; yes FW get's alot of flak, is it justified: No, not really, especially if you compare ruleset by ruleset, Codex by Codex and Index by Index. 100% of the time a FW Index is weaker then it's companion counterpart: Deathkorps vs regular IG. Corsairs vs regular Eldar, etc.


Oh and laxer rules you say?
I wonder then why GW had to adapt the rule of 3 for tournament formats?
Meanwhile FW sits there and says, well not only do you have to pay in points and or powerlevel, no, you have to additionally chose certain units to be allowed Relic/ Hellforged units inherently stopping spam short within their own Indexes.
Meanwhile spamming regular GW knights is fine and dandy.......
So i ask you again, and this time be honest about it, do you really think FW or GW is laxer?

 Vaktathi wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
I expect the same policy to be applied to all other rules. If you don't give me an up front request/notification that you would like to use codex rules instead of the index rules then you are probably TFG. After all, codex rules are a major escalation in power and WAAC potential, and really just an expansion to the core of the game. And some armies don't even get codex rules at all, how is that fair? Plus they cost so much money and it's not reasonable to expect me to be familiar with them.

I don't think this analogy is entirely correct. It explicitly states in the core rulebook that the latest codex must be used for datasheets for your army outside of very specific circumstances. I've yet to see GW make an official announcement that "FW is a GW supported, and sponsored part of the game, and FW models/rules are fully intended to be used in matched play".

Given that FW is just another branch of GW, making products for the game with GW IP by GW employees at GW HQ and all the books have big "Warhammer 40,000" logo's on them with great big "Games Workshop" logo on the book spine and that all say inside "Copyright of Games Workshop", and that all GW-run events allow FW rules and make 0 effort to make some sort of distinction between FW stuff and non-FW stuff (and this has been true for many years and several editions now), one has to wonder...why GW would bother? They've made their stance rather clear that they don't see any distinction.

Their reasoning being that those models are an optional expansion to the base WH40k game made by a different (related sure, but different) company, similar to something like the planetstrike or cities of death rulesets. You wouldn't show up to a game and spring "oh btw we are playing a planetstrike scenario" on your opponent would you?

In this regard, Planetstrike is not the same as FW, it's called out specifically for what it is and requires different rules for setup and play, FW stuff largely plugs and plays right into pickup gaming without any issue. That's a mistaken perception on their part that they inferred incorrectly.

You forgot willfully ignorant, atleast since CA....

 conker249 wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 conker249 wrote:
I won't play against FW. It just sucks the fun out of the game for me. For my local Meta, I don't like playing against Khorne Brass Scorpions, Dread Claws, Impalers, Or Dark Eldar Tantulus and Reapers. Baneblades aren't fun either.
I just like regular Codex or regular Index. I lose a lot, which I am fine with, I just get utterly curbstomped or tabled quickly when those are on the field. At that point, I am really only continuing the match for my opponent to have fun, while looking at my watch hoping the match is over so I can drive 1.5 hours home and hope next weeks game goes better

Sounds like you need to worry less about your opponent and more about your own army. What stopped you from getting a FW model?

I have a few FW models that I paint. Primarchs, Deredeo Dreadnought. I like just regular Codex vs Regular Codex, Or regular Index. One rulebook, one codex(or index). Everyone here has a rulebook and a codex or index.The players who play FW, seem to never have their rules on hand, so it is a "trust me, this does this" or it is a screenshot on their phone. Its frustrating that rules cannot be verified (or that I can read to understand) they change, or magically "remember" certain rules later in the game when they benefit them. Again, My views towards FW are Local Meta. If I have a question on a unit for a blood angels player, I can ask to see his codex. If I have a question towards a FW unit, I cannot. It gets old really quick when I charge or shoot a unit, to find out what it does after the act.

Actually that seems less like a problem for FW in general and more like a problem with your local players.
Sure you can blame Fw but the fact remains that it is the players fault that don't carry around their rules.
Basically a rule of thumb, if someone plays a Fw unit he will carry around a book more then normal people.
If he plays a FW subfaction (deathkorps, Corsairs, R&H, etc.) chances are he will be carrying 2 more books / printouts with him.
If he does not, and has no tablet with him then quite frankly he is a TFG that cheats and you should call him out for that.
( on a side note, for my R&H list i carry around:
-Codex astra militarum
-Codex csm
-Index astra militarum
- Index for Chaos vehicles forgot the name atm.
- ca
Basically i carry more rules then i carry in units for my army)

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 rhinoceraids wrote:

Thats the only instance of me ever asking somebody to not bring something. Outside of maybe 100's of boys or troops.

This. This is absolutely the worst thing a person can bring to a game. Ever. One person did this to me, and never again.

Green tide. That army went from zero to hero really quickly.
I don't like the fact that guardsmen or ork boyz are that good / cost efficient in 8th.
I don't mind hordes i just mind the fact that those troops literally beat anything in regards to point efectiveness.
Same goes for csm which don't even bother anymore with standard marines and just use cultists.

Guess i am kinda also more hardened in that regard because i ain't leaving the house without atleast 1/10 in points in units, however you can be pretty effective at moving mass troops. That is if you don't intend to inch perfectly to avoid that nasty flamer overwatch before a charge....
The problem is that an inch more or less is way to important sometimes and or people are just beeing particulary excact again.

I avoid that by just ordering a general charge of my troops whilest firing.
Yes i play khorne
No, i do know what tactics are, i just personally adopted the mass charge doctrine.

 Jidmah wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Gotta love most of the people still bothering to post in these threads are in full denial of all the issues FW glorious way of writing rules has caused over the years.

If FW hadn't broken the game as often and as hard as they did, no one would even consider to decline a game because of a Leviathan Dread.

I started in 7th, so my history with Forgeworld is that it's similar to the main studio. Yes, there are some OP things (Tau'Nar) but plenty of it is just fine. Same with GW.

And you know what? I can understand that, if in the past, FW was bonkers-nutso OP and GW was not, people might have bad history with it. I would politely ask that they, however, look at the CURRENT state, and understand that FW is, at the most, no more OP than GW, and probably quite a bit less, since Chapter Approved.

Thing is, chapter approved isn't ancient history, it's barely six months old. They fudged up in 8th just as hard as they always have. They only difference to the last decade is that at least GW cleans up after them.

Normally one would consider the ammount of pages that were changed the ammount of problems that were solved, therefore the more pages found unter the GW category the more Gw fethed up, the more FW the more FW fethed up.
Now call me dense but i see 4 pages for GW and 3* for FW.
*(There is also the fact that both sides massively changed their AM branches (DK Elysians and R&H in FW) General AM in the main line of GW. Now excuse me but since FW publishes more specific AM /Am- related lists, those all did change in equal ammounts to the AM general line now?
so basically what we are left is around 4 pages GW and 2 pages FW aswell as one page FW (related changes to bring them in line with the AM of GW) .

Quite frankly we have to consider in that case that GW did more of the fething up.

@Mmmpi, so you advocate, because people met WAAC players, that anyway will pick only the most broken stuff regardless of the source, people should be allowed to ban at an arbitary line?
That is basically the same as "Sippenhaft", or the underlying legal agrumentation, which was a medieaval law, that saw the family punished for the crimes of a person, because they are supposedly now also criminal anyways. (It was also formally introduced by the Nazis, but frankly they were anyways very backwards).
I know it is a drastic argumentation, but just judging via perception of yourself/ one person, is quite frankly not a very convincing standpoint.

 Mmmpi wrote:

@Mmmpi, so you advocate, because people met WAAC players, that anyway will pick only the most broken stuff regardless of the source, people should be allowed to ban at an arbitary line?
That is basically the same as "Sippenhaft", or the underlying legal agrumentation, which was a medieaval law, that saw the family punished for the crimes of a person, because they are supposedly now also criminal anyways. (It was also formally introduced by the Nazis, but frankly they were anyways very backwards).
I know it is a drastic argumentation, but just judging via perception of yourself/ one person, is quite frankly not a very convincing standpoint.

No, but at the same time, for these people, it's not arbitrary. It just seems like it to us, because you're coming in as an outsider to their group, or experiencing the what via Dakka, rather than being in place to know why they did it.

clarification: the "us" above refers to a nebulous outsider, not the automatically the people in this thread.

However it is regardless an arbitrary line, when percived from the outside aswell as from the inside and stems from:
A: Willfull ignorance, something one can not particulary blame an indiviual on if said individual has had bad memories of such an event
B: They are willfully ignorant anyways because somebody told them. (In Switzerland we have a saying for that: "Vom ghöre säge, lehrt mer Lüge". which translates to: From the hearing of said things, one learns to lie.)

And no it does not just seem like one, because it is one. It stems from bad selfreflection and aswell the simple fact that people tend to stay actievly uninformed.
Another exemple: Because the Japanese did extremely bad things during WW2, should we now judge every Japanese? Should we also judge every Japanese that lives today?
No, because it is morally wrong to do so. In one of my first posts in this thread i have explained it, it is because of perception and the hearing of people that had bad incidents.
That however does not allow me to be willingly ignorant and judge now, dosen't it, because as an individual i have to do some homework aswell alone.

I don't judge them, i judge however those, that insists this line of thinking is valid or ok, because it isn't.
It speaks literally against everything that is principle in a state that abides the law, and aswell as a person that has some baseline knowledge of selfreflection and morals.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
To be fair that stompa wasn't the only OP thing FW ever produced. Remember the renegades and heretics list from 7th edition, which could easily compete with GWs OP Necrons, Tau, Space marines and Eldar.

In 8th edition I'd say the only FW outlier was Aetaos'rau'keres but that has been fixed.

Oh, and malefic lords.
But they are very similar to brimstones, conscripts and razorwing flocks and have been solved just as fast.

Which one? There were 2 really broken ones, one was "the purge" formation with an artillery tyrant (which btw is not R&H as a whole but Siege of Vraks Renegades) and the other was the "Master of the Horde" + Infernal Relic Baneblade + unending Host which also were siege of Vraks renegades. However Vraks was also accompanied by DK and those guys technically could also pull similar stuff in the twilight days of 7th.

(one list spammed dangerous terrain with artillery because of gas shells and used huge ammounts of plague Zombies to tie you, whilest the other had 3+ cover for everything hidden behind any unit of Vraks renegades even the baneblade could get the save from lowely inf grunts, whilest also allowing those inf units to re- enter on 2 or 3 + roll. Meanwhile the Baneblade produced a bubble which made all Vraks militas surrounding it in 12" i belive fearless)
However those lists are really like the Eldar list someone used to complain about the OP sicarian, basically the same dickish move.....

Also both lists had easily abusable flaws, and the core piece for the later list was a Baneblade (which is a GW unit) , whilest the other one was also mainly broken because the whole formations which GW introduced were, put mildly, broken.
I mean when a SM player could get additional 400-500 pts in transports whithout paying which wasn't even the worst possible move to pull if i remember correctly then we have a problem in the main gamemode. There was also the problem with summoning Daemons via the GW rules and that everyone and their mother would use that to summon greater Daemons, had the funny side effect that the Tzeentch daemons always were sold out.....

Quite frankly neither modern day GW nor FW come close to old GW, or do i need to point to the infamous "fish of fury" tactic the Tau pulled early?
We should be happy that now atleast they do try to balance faster and on a much more complete and general scale, even if i disagree with the fact that i had to buy CA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
To be fair that stompa wasn't the only OP thing FW ever produced. Remember the renegades and heretics list from 7th edition, which could easily compete with GWs OP Necrons, Tau, Space marines and Eldar.

In 8th edition I'd say the only FW outlier was Aetaos'rau'keres but that has been fixed.

Oh, and malefic lords.
But they are very similar to brimstones, conscripts and razorwing flocks and have been solved just as fast.

Also isn't the Stompa a GW unit? Or was that a speccific Stompa that was this broken?

Actually your last point is what irks me really.
It isn't like the rules are not avilable even cheaper as E-publication in the same area were you need to go to get FAQ's. This day and age everybody has a smartphone or a tablet or a PC, one would think that going to the site to see if there is a FAQ you would also see the rules for FW indexes.

EVEN if this wasn't the case, you would still buy CA and even then you can atleast partially inform yourself about units in FW indexes.

Sometimes i have a feeling that certain people tend to take the "knowledge is the way to heresy" way to serious.

Actually, tarifs are the reason, why outside of the UK / Commonwealth FW units are that expensive. I remember that i had to pay around 10-20% on tarifs for some of my units.
This is also why i stopped bothering Mail ordering and instead now switched over mainly to kitbashing aswell as buying Indexes electronical. I have looked into some 3rd parties but especially regarding Infantery units you have problems with their size.

Funnily enough though the books are way easier to access now thanks to the fact that you can buy them as E-Book. Main problem is, that you might have to make a printout for them and or have a tablet witha decent runtime battery in order to have good access to the rules.

As for the whole China knock offs, eh i would not bother with them, since China is not particulary known for having good standards, especially when we look at their plastic and paints.
I remember 1 or 2 years ago that they had some scandals involving plastic that could cause cancer.

There are way easier and better alternatives, for models, especially Earthshaker batteries or other pieces of artilery.
Also you don't even need to search for an alternative outside of GW, you could just buy for exemple a Basilisk and make a Salamander Scout Tank out of the chasis and a Earthshaker out of the gun. So long you do a good job at conversions that is not really a problem. Especially Orks have it really easy in that regard.

Wait? You pay tarrifs in your own country/ something that is produced in your own country?
Or do you just have that high taxes on miniatures / entertainment.

Well wrote:
The problem with FW is that it increases the toolbox available for TFG.
I dont turn down games for a few FW units, but I turn down games for "maximised units that makes for boring games", FW or GW. And FW's prices scares away most players, but not TFG that badly wants an edge. So even tho there is FW units that are way subpar, 9/10times you see a FW unit it is from the "best choices" of them.

And you all know the units tfg uses/abuses. 2+ fire raptors pre FAQ price adjustment. And now the 3 hellforged scorpius hiding out of sight, not to be moved for the entire game. Usually with a chaos lord babysitting them for rerolls. And of course they insists on lower floor blocking line of sight... Or 3 of what so happens to be the best unit from FW atm.
And those lists makes for dead boring games. For tournaments, sure. Go ahead, no judgement at all, whatever you are bringing. But for casual pickup games at your lgs, cmon, dont be that guy.

Anyhow. You can refuse games for any reason, but if it's for a single unit, then you are kind of an ass. Forgeworld or not. At least if you don't inform about that you refuse games against "a reason". But you can also not be an ass and tell people beforehand for a pickup game at the LGS if you are playing "competitive".
I have so far refused one game in 8th. A 1250pts pickup game against the Morty/Magnus tag team. Win or lose, that game would be a waste of time.

Frankly, expanding the toolbox in a game like this is never really a bad idea, aslong as it is within certain limitations.
Someone pointed at the Eldar Alaitoc -bs list build and complained about Sicarians, because Sicarians Ignore all negative BS modifications to rolls on FLY targets.
Considering that a Sicarian is fairly priced and a Relic unit (i.e. you need to take another unit of a specific slot) it is good but balanced. Hoewever it explicetly shines against that list. Meanwhile bog standard GW lists struggle to fight this Eldar Shenanigans.
Basically if you expand the toolbox you are more likely to find a counterplay. Especially against certain really specific lists like the Eldar list you literally need something like that. Frankly that Eldar build should not be able to even exist in my opinion.

 akaean wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


Frankly, expanding the toolbox in a game like this is never really a bad idea, aslong as it is within certain limitations.
Someone pointed at the Eldar Alaitoc -bs list build and complained about Sicarians, because Sicarians Ignore all negative BS modifications to rolls on FLY targets.
Considering that a Sicarian is fairly priced and a Relic unit (i.e. you need to take another unit of a specific slot) it is good but balanced. Hoewever it explicetly shines against that list. Meanwhile bog standard GW lists struggle to fight this Eldar Shenanigans.
Basically if you expand the toolbox you are more likely to find a counterplay. Especially against certain really specific lists like the Eldar list you literally need something like that. Frankly that Eldar build should not be able to even exist in my opinion.

This is especially amusing to me, because Eldar themselves are home to the Dark Reaper, which does exactly the same thing. Ignore modifiers to hit and always land home on a 3+ in the shooting phase. As an Eldar player I can safely say that any Eldar player has no right to complain about other armies gaining access to ballistic skill ignoring war gear. Its like the pot calling the kettle black.

The more I play against Forgeworld stuff, the less I mind it. Is that Chaos Duel Butcher Cannon Array Hellforged Leviathan Dreadnaught scary? Yes. buts its not particularly worse than anything GW themselves has put out. After Chapter Approved 2017 came out and explicitly modified the Forgeworld prices in an official GW publication, it basically settled any argument as to whether these are available in a regular game of 40K, so let people have their fun.

Most of Forgeworlds releases may be Imperial and Chaos, but Xenos have some cool releases as well. Who wouldn't want a Squiggoth for their orcs??

A: Remember, certain people still belive that FW is seperate in any way or form to GW. What most people thend to forget is, that whilest all armies should specialise in some way or another, essential options aggainst fliers, skimmer, CQC, gunlines, artilery,etc should all be in the game as to provide a counterplay to a degree. Certainly not a hardcounter but there should be counterplay options aggainst certain unit types. F.e. i belive all armies should have access to ground based AA. All armies should get acceess to something like Fighters, even bombers to a degree.

B:That enemy of yours, which defacted the holy union of butchercannon+decimator shall be punished severly, nothing except the most sophisticated Decimator Daemonengine shall use the Butcher Autocannon. Btw mine is called Big Fritz, kinda like my baby in regards to my model collection.

(Actually that opens up an intersting question, do you suffer the moral debuff twice? or only if both guns kill something?)
C: Orks get comparatively a shitton of releases, if the Grot tanks weren't so god damn expensive and there would be a Grot HQ choice i would love to run a grot revolutionary army.