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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 13:40:19
Subject: Re:Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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"Welcome to Imperial Armour – Index: Forces of the Astra Militarum. This book is designed to update the rules for Forge World’s current and recent ranges of models for use with the latest incarnation of the Warhammer 40,000 game. It provides rules for Forge World’s Astra Militarum, Death Korps of Krieg, Elysian Drop Troops, Questor Imperialis and Titan Legions, as well as the malevolent traitors of the Renegades and Heretics army.
Says the rules are updated for the current range for 8th Ed.
This book and its contents are fully compatible with Warhammer 40,000 – Index: Imperium 2, expanding the datasheets which are found there and contains all the information you need to field your Forge World models from the Astra Militarum, Death Korps of Krieg, Elysian Drop Troops, Questor Imperialis, Titan Legions and Renegade and Heretics factions in the new edition of the Warhammer 40,000 game. Also included are both Power Ratings and Appendices for their use in Battle-forged armies.
Says that the rules are compatible with, in this case Index: Imperium 2 and presumbibly the associated codexes. (A straight reading, nothing more intended). Continues to talk about new factions, and that it uses Power Ratings and points. Also in the first part of this quote says it's an expansion.
You will need a copy of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook and Warhammer 40,000 – Index: Imperium 2 to make full use of this book and its contents."
Says the books you need to use this specific index.
None of this says it's a full part. You can argue that it is, but it doesn't explicitly say that.
I will agree that you're probably more likely to be correct by a fair margin. However, the fact that ForgeWorld needed a disclaimer, the fact that their stuff does have a reputation, that there are strong feelings on both sides, and the fact that it is an expansion, which the IG (and again, presumably the other codexi) Codex doesn't say, gives weight to the idea that at least you should check with your opponent first.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 13:40:58
Subject: Re:Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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DominayTrix wrote:*shrug* I would rather lose to a Forgeworld unit I have never played against because I didn't know what it does then to play yet another unimaginative soup list. I am much more likely to pass on a game if I see Imperial Guard and Death Company for example. Even more likely then that I would rather not play a mirror match. Variety is the spice of life.
I don't mind soup, aslong it is fluffy and not pure power.
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 13:52:31
Subject: Re:Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Mmmpi wrote:
None of this says it's a full part. You can argue that it is, but it doesn't explicitly say that.
I will agree that you're probably more likely to be correct by a fair margin. However, the fact that ForgeWorld needed a disclaimer, the fact that their stuff does have a reputation, that there are strong feelings on both sides, and the fact that it is an expansion, which the IG (and again, presumably the other codexi) Codex doesn't say, gives weight to the idea that at least you should check with your opponent first.
First of all, saying it is "expanding the datasheets available" or whatever is hardly the same thing as an expansion to the game in the DLC/videogame sense. That's like saying a patch that includes a new weapon is an "expansion".
Second of all... yes, you should always check with your opponent, no one is disputing that. What people are disputing is whether or not the opponent is reasonable for saying no. I can ask my opponent "mind if you don't bring that CSM Land Raider?" and he is fully within his rights to say "actually, that's a dumb thing to ask, and you're unreasonable for asking it."
To be fair that's a dick way to phrase it, but fundamentally, people saying "no" to Forge World units are not immune to judgement for their unreasonable stance.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 13:56:48
Subject: Re:Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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Hard-Wired Sentinel Pilot
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Mmmpi wrote:
None of this says it's a full part. You can argue that it is, but it doesn't explicitly say that.
Your very own posted example does however, and I quote: "This unit is intended to be used in ' standard' games of Warhammer 40,000... ...as with all our models these should be considered 'official'".
Mmmpi wrote:
I will agree that you're probably more likely to be correct by a fair margin. However, the fact that ForgeWorld needed a disclaimer, the fact that their stuff does have a reputation, that there are strong feelings on both sides, and the fact that it is an expansion, which the IG (and again, presumably the other codexi) Codex doesn't say, gives weight to the idea that at least you should check with your opponent first.
It's not an expansion. Not at all. You're using the fact that the word 'expands' was used, (it does 'expand' upon a collection of data sheets - in the same way as any CODEX potential does), that word isn't intended to imply that the models constitute an optional, stand alone expansion to 40K. The context never implys that - as I think you well know. I feel you're being deliberately obtuse here.
Again, there was no disclaimer, there was a suggestion that may be useful to some people, in some cases. It's not a rule. It no longer even appears on the site!
This 'reputation' FW has is a mythology that frankly you're helping to perpetuate.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 14:16:50
Subject: Re:Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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This 'reputation' FW has is a mythology that frankly you're helping to perpetuate.
Honestly you're doing more of that than I am.
Your very own posted example does however, and I quote: "This unit is intended to be used in 'standard' games of Warhammer 40,000... ...as with all our models these should be considered 'official'".
Yeah, I take official to mean ready for use, and that standard games to mean that if you do use them, then they're compatible with the game types presented in the core rules, as opposed to special scenarios like Cities of Death, or Planet Strike.
It's not an expansion. Not at all. You're using the fact that the word 'expands' was used, (it does 'expand' upon a collection of data sheets - in the same way as any CODEX potential does), that word isn't intended to imply that the models constitute an optional, stand alone expansion to 40K. The context never implies that - as I think you well know. I feel you're being deliberately obtuse here.
I did point out that my sample codex example doesn't say it expands on anything, at least that I could find. So yes, it is an expansion.
You say suggestion, I say disclaimer. They felt the need to 'request' that people check ahead.
So again, back to reputation. Forgeworld has several. Forgeworld advocates have another. That they're WAAC, power gamers, cheater, ect, which feeds into the FW reputation that their stuff is overpowered because the FW stuff that people see tends to be the powerful stuff.
I'm going to take a second here to point out that I'm not accusing any of you of being power gamers, WAAC players, or cheaters, only that there's a perception of it about the FW community at large.
If you really want to get people on board with accepting the FW expansions, then maybe actually convincing people to try it, rather then calling them silly might be a way to do. You're working against a lot of perception, much of which has been earned by people taking advantage of the laxer rules writing from FW. Also, while you might consider someone's reason silly, they certainly do not. Most people I've met don't go "No ForgeWorld" because they don't think it's fair that you were able to buy it. They say it because they've been burned by people using it before, and that they can say no to an expansion.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 14:24:21
Subject: Re:Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Mmmpi wrote:If you really want to get people on board with accepting the FW expansions, then maybe actually convincing people to try it, rather then calling them silly might be a way to do. You're working against a lot of perception, much of which has been earned by people taking advantage of the laxer rules writing from FW. Also, while you might consider someone's reason silly, they certainly do not. Most people I've met don't go "No ForgeWorld" because they don't think it's fair that you were able to buy it. They say it because they've been burned by people using it before, and that they can say no to an expansion.
The problem is that you can't get unreasonable people to try things. "No Forge World" is like a hashtag, mantra, or incantation that's trotted out every time you try. And when you ask "why" they go into a song and dance about 1) Overpowered 2) Community Perception 3) Expensive.
Number 1 is decidedly and provably false when compared to Games Workshop. It's objectively wrong.
Number 2 will never change. It's a circular argument. "I can say no because the community will never change, and the community will never change because I can say no." and they never try it.
Number 3 is not a reason to turn down a game - after all, boxes of Space Marines are more expensive than boxes of Guardsmen - should guard players start turning down games with Space Marines?
So they go into the song and dance, and assert objectively false, irrational, and unreasonable answers. Then, when you say "those are false, stupid, and arrogant respectively" they say "REEEEEEE SEE I TOLD YOU FORGE WORLD PLAYERS ARE ALL JERKS!!1!!11!!!1!1!" So the only option left for reasonable discourse is "you're silly."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 14:37:46
Subject: Re:Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Mmmpi wrote:This 'reputation' FW has is a mythology that frankly you're helping to perpetuate.
Honestly you're doing more of that than I am.
Your very own posted example does however, and I quote: "This unit is intended to be used in 'standard' games of Warhammer 40,000... ...as with all our models these should be considered 'official'".
Yeah, I take official to mean ready for use, and that standard games to mean that if you do use them, then they're compatible with the game types presented in the core rules, as opposed to special scenarios like Cities of Death, or Planet Strike.
It's not an expansion. Not at all. You're using the fact that the word 'expands' was used, (it does 'expand' upon a collection of data sheets - in the same way as any CODEX potential does), that word isn't intended to imply that the models constitute an optional, stand alone expansion to 40K. The context never implies that - as I think you well know. I feel you're being deliberately obtuse here.
I did point out that my sample codex example doesn't say it expands on anything, at least that I could find. So yes, it is an expansion.
You say suggestion, I say disclaimer. They felt the need to 'request' that people check ahead.
So again, back to reputation. Forgeworld has several. Forgeworld advocates have another. That they're WAAC, power gamers, cheater, ect, which feeds into the FW reputation that their stuff is overpowered because the FW stuff that people see tends to be the powerful stuff.
I'm going to take a second here to point out that I'm not accusing any of you of being power gamers, WAAC players, or cheaters, only that there's a perception of it about the FW community at large.
If you really want to get people on board with accepting the FW expansions, then maybe actually convincing people to try it, rather then calling them silly might be a way to do. You're working against a lot of perception, much of which has been earned by people taking advantage of the laxer rules writing from FW. Also, while you might consider someone's reason silly, they certainly do not. Most people I've met don't go "No ForgeWorld" because they don't think it's fair that you were able to buy it. They say it because they've been burned by people using it before, and that they can say no to an expansion.
It seems that you are willfully missinterpreting. It says that they are desgined and a part of 40k. literally, they are a 40 k army , it you like it or not is not up to debate.
You do realise that FW could have put that "disclaimer" up because FW isn't as mainstream as GW rules, however that does not mean that i have to ask you beforehand (i should, but i don't have to, I 'd also like to point out, that if i play certain armies or units which are way better then your Codex/ Index i should ask too, however i don't have to again, that is supposedly fine by you for whatever reason because it is not FW resin?).
Especially with the relatively recent adopted policy of GW, which even goes as far as putting changes of ALL FW units in CA, which is the offical "patch" so to speak of 40k therefore MANDATORY and OFFICIAL .
Also important on their webstore/ website, which all E-publications are ( FAQ's) etc. which you would anyway visit, because it clarifies stuff, are all FAQ's from FW indexes and GW codexes / Indexes i wonder what that means that they SHARE ONE COMMON SITE WHICH YOU HAVE TO VISIT AND ARE ALL IN THE SAME CATEGORY.
As for the reputation; yes FW get's alot of flak, is it justified: No, not really, especially if you compare ruleset by ruleset, Codex by Codex and Index by Index. 100% of the time a FW Index is weaker then it's companion counterpart: Deathkorps vs regular IG. Corsairs vs regular Eldar, etc.
Oh and laxer rules you say?
I wonder then why GW had to adapt the rule of 3 for tournament formats?
Meanwhile FW sits there and says, well not only do you have to pay in points and or powerlevel, no, you have to additionally chose certain units to be allowed Relic/ Hellforged units inherently stopping spam short within their own Indexes.
Meanwhile spamming regular GW knights is fine and dandy.......
So i ask you again, and this time be honest about it, do you really think FW or GW is laxer?
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 14:40:46
Subject: Re:Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
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w1zard wrote: Peregrine wrote:I expect the same policy to be applied to all other rules. If you don't give me an up front request/notification that you would like to use codex rules instead of the index rules then you are probably TFG. After all, codex rules are a major escalation in power and WAAC potential, and really just an expansion to the core of the game. And some armies don't even get codex rules at all, how is that fair? Plus they cost so much money and it's not reasonable to expect me to be familiar with them.
I don't think this analogy is entirely correct. It explicitly states in the core rulebook that the latest codex must be used for datasheets for your army outside of very specific circumstances. I've yet to see GW make an official announcement that " FW is a GW supported, and sponsored part of the game, and FW models/rules are fully intended to be used in matched play".
Given that FW is just another branch of GW, making products for the game with GW IP by GW employees at GW HQ and all the books have big "Warhammer 40,000" logo's on them with great big "Games Workshop" logo on the book spine and that all say inside "Copyright of Games Workshop", and that all GW-run events allow FW rules and make 0 effort to make some sort of distinction between FW stuff and non- FW stuff (and this has been true for many years and several editions now), one has to wonder...why GW would bother? They've made their stance rather clear that they don't see any distinction.
Their reasoning being that those models are an optional expansion to the base WH40k game made by a different (related sure, but different) company, similar to something like the planetstrike or cities of death rulesets. You wouldn't show up to a game and spring "oh btw we are playing a planetstrike scenario" on your opponent would you?
In this regard, Planetstrike is not the same as FW, it's called out specifically for what it is and requires different rules for setup and play, FW stuff largely plugs and plays right into pickup gaming without any issue. That's a mistaken perception on their part that they inferred incorrectly.
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IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 14:42:56
Subject: Re:Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Vaktathi wrote:w1zard wrote: Peregrine wrote:I expect the same policy to be applied to all other rules. If you don't give me an up front request/notification that you would like to use codex rules instead of the index rules then you are probably TFG. After all, codex rules are a major escalation in power and WAAC potential, and really just an expansion to the core of the game. And some armies don't even get codex rules at all, how is that fair? Plus they cost so much money and it's not reasonable to expect me to be familiar with them.
I don't think this analogy is entirely correct. It explicitly states in the core rulebook that the latest codex must be used for datasheets for your army outside of very specific circumstances. I've yet to see GW make an official announcement that " FW is a GW supported, and sponsored part of the game, and FW models/rules are fully intended to be used in matched play".
Given that FW is just another branch of GW, making products for the game with GW IP by GW employees at GW HQ and all the books have big "Warhammer 40,000" logo's on them with great big "Games Workshop" logo on the book spine and that all say inside "Copyright of Games Workshop", and that all GW-run events allow FW rules and make 0 effort to make some sort of distinction between FW stuff and non- FW stuff (and this has been true for many years and several editions now), one has to wonder...why GW would bother? They've made their stance rather clear that they don't see any distinction.
Their reasoning being that those models are an optional expansion to the base WH40k game made by a different (related sure, but different) company, similar to something like the planetstrike or cities of death rulesets. You wouldn't show up to a game and spring "oh btw we are playing a planetstrike scenario" on your opponent would you?
In this regard, Planetstrike is not the same as FW, it's called out specifically for what it is and requires different rules for setup and play, FW stuff largely plugs and plays right into pickup gaming without any issue. That's a mistaken perception on their part that they inferred incorrectly.
You forgot willfully ignorant, atleast since CA....
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/10 14:43:07
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 14:57:44
Subject: Re:Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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Hard-Wired Sentinel Pilot
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Mmmpi wrote:
Your very own posted example does however, and I quote: "This unit is intended to be used in 'standard' games of Warhammer 40,000... ...as with all our models these should be considered 'official'".
Yeah, I take official to mean ready for use, and that standard games to mean that if you do use them, then they're compatible with the game types presented in the core rules, as opposed to special scenarios like Cities of Death, or Planet Strike.
Uh huh. Good talk.
When you start interpreting very, very simple to understand terms to deliberately fit your own narrative, you're either being willfully ignorant, dishonest, or a troll.
None of these can be debated with constructively.
You still aren't even bothering to address the fact that what you posted to support your argument is an obsolete, ancient text box, which no longer appears any where. It has no merit.
I'm fairly certain you're just deliberately trying to pour fuel on the fire to get a reaction at this point. Have fun with that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 15:00:06
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Let’s see, most popular FW stuff I see
Spartan: very very expensive and suffers from Land raider syndrome, also lord of war
Sicarion: relic vehicle, more expensive than tri las pred and but otherwise good.
Contemptor: the FW has more weapon options but is a relic and still just a contemptor.
Leviathan: excellent unit but also a relic so not spamable.
Find it hard to believe that FW stuff tends to be powerful, good sure, some of it, but most is ok at best, look at the omega tank destroyer for example, why would i take one over the tri las pred other than it looks so much cooler.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 18:32:35
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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Waaagh! Warbiker
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Formosa wrote:
Find it hard to believe that FW stuff tends to be powerful, good sure, some of it, but most is ok at best, look at the omega tank destroyer for example, why would i take one over the tri las pred other than it looks so much cooler.
The thing is that people almost never field FW units that are "ok at best", its the few broken ones that always get spammed. I can see why people still might refuse to play against FW.
If you want to field stuff from FW why not proxy them as ordinary units from the codex?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 18:34:46
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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jhnbrg wrote: Formosa wrote:
Find it hard to believe that FW stuff tends to be powerful, good sure, some of it, but most is ok at best, look at the omega tank destroyer for example, why would i take one over the tri las pred other than it looks so much cooler.
The thing is that people almost never field FW units that are "ok at best", its the few broken ones that always get spammed. I can see why people still might refuse to play against FW.
If you want to field stuff from FW why not proxy them as ordinary units from the codex?
So here's a rule of thumb for discussing Forge World; if you replace Forge World with Games Workshop in your sentence and the meaning is still the same, then you're not actually talking about Forge World, your problem is somewhere else (could be Games Workshop, could be other players). Here, let me do it for you:
"The thing is that people almost never field GW units that are "ok at best", its the few broken ones that always get spammed."
I would argue this sentence has exactly the same meaning, and therefore this post is not a critique of Forge World or even a good reason to ban it, but merely an observation about the way competitive players play the game, whether they use GW or Forge World units.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 18:35:16
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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Plummeting Black Templar Thunderhawk Pilot
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I won't play against FW. It just sucks the fun out of the game for me. For my local Meta, I don't like playing against Khorne Brass Scorpions, Dread Claws, Impalers, Or Dark Eldar Tantulus and Reapers. Baneblades aren't fun either.
I just like regular Codex or regular Index. I lose a lot, which I am fine with, I just get utterly curbstomped or tabled quickly when those are on the field. At that point, I am really only continuing the match for my opponent to have fun, while looking at my watch hoping the match is over so I can drive 1.5 hours home and hope next weeks game goes better
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Black Templars 4000 Deathwatch 6000
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 18:35:43
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Baneblades aren't FW.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 18:39:26
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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jhnbrg wrote: Formosa wrote:
Find it hard to believe that FW stuff tends to be powerful, good sure, some of it, but most is ok at best, look at the omega tank destroyer for example, why would i take one over the tri las pred other than it looks so much cooler.
The thing is that people almost never field FW units that are "ok at best", its the few broken ones that always get spammed. I can see why people still might refuse to play against FW.
If you want to field stuff from FW why not proxy them as ordinary units from the codex?
Those same people also aren't going to run the core codex units that are "ok at best".
The thing that is going to produce the most positive game experiences for both players is to have an understanding about the power level they want to play at, and how competitively they want to play it. Forge World vs Non-Forge World isn't a particularly useful metric for making those kinds of decisions. Someone who doesn't like to get blown by powerful units is going to have a very similar experience getting blown out by the best-of-the-best codex units as they will getting blown out by the best-of-the-best forge world units.
There is spectrum of power level in both sources of material. Simply accepting one or the other is going to do nothing to keep matches where one wants in that spectrum.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/10 18:40:48
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 18:41:15
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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Fixture of Dakka
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jhnbrg wrote: Formosa wrote:
Find it hard to believe that FW stuff tends to be powerful, good sure, some of it, but most is ok at best, look at the omega tank destroyer for example, why would i take one over the tri las pred other than it looks so much cooler.
The thing is that people almost never field FW units that are "ok at best", its the few broken ones that always get spammed. I can see why people still might refuse to play against FW.
If you want to field stuff from FW why not proxy them as ordinary units from the codex?
They can be pretty expensive and if I put a lot of time, effort and money into something I want to use it and the isn't any decent reason to say no.
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 18:41:48
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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conker249 wrote:I won't play against FW. It just sucks the fun out of the game for me. For my local Meta, I don't like playing against Khorne Brass Scorpions, Dread Claws, Impalers, Or Dark Eldar Tantulus and Reapers. Baneblades aren't fun either.
I just like regular Codex or regular Index. I lose a lot, which I am fine with, I just get utterly curbstomped or tabled quickly when those are on the field. At that point, I am really only continuing the match for my opponent to have fun, while looking at my watch hoping the match is over so I can drive 1.5 hours home and hope next weeks game goes better
Martel732 wrote:Baneblades aren't FW.
Also, to reinforce the point, the Baneblade wasn't good as a Forge World model, and only became good after GW got ahold of it. Here's what happened to the Baneblade when GW got it:
99 point price decrease (634-535)
Main cannon went from "battle cannon but str 9" to "10" apocalyptic doom template. Also AP2 because reasons"
Went from "can be destroyed in 1 shot with chain reactions" to "needs at least 3 shots from any weapon to die, usually more"
Went from "wow this damage table actually hurts" to "meh, what is damage table"
Every time GW has ported something out of FW, it has gone up in capability. This doesn't hold true for units that were in the 2nd edition Codex: Imperial Guard that were dropped from the 3rd Edition one (like Vanquishers, which swapped from GW to FW and then came back to GW).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 18:47:08
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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Posts with Authority
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conker249 wrote:I won't play against FW. It just sucks the fun out of the game for me. For my local Meta, I don't like playing against Khorne Brass Scorpions, Dread Claws, Impalers, Or Dark Eldar Tantulus and Reapers. Baneblades aren't fun either.
I just like regular Codex or regular Index. I lose a lot, which I am fine with, I just get utterly curbstomped or tabled quickly when those are on the field. At that point, I am really only continuing the match for my opponent to have fun, while looking at my watch hoping the match is over so I can drive 1.5 hours home and hope next weeks game goes better
Sounds like you need to worry less about your opponent and more about your own army. What stopped you from getting a FW model? Automatically Appended Next Post: Chongara wrote:
The thing is that people almost never field FW units that are "ok at best", its the few broken ones that always get spammed. I can see why people still might refuse to play against FW.
If you want to field stuff from FW why not proxy them as ordinary units from the codex?
What Forge World units are being 'spammed' and in what numbers?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/10 18:49:28
Mob Rule is not a rule. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 18:51:06
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Chongara wrote: jhnbrg wrote: Formosa wrote:
Find it hard to believe that FW stuff tends to be powerful, good sure, some of it, but most is ok at best, look at the omega tank destroyer for example, why would i take one over the tri las pred other than it looks so much cooler.
The thing is that people almost never field FW units that are "ok at best", its the few broken ones that always get spammed. I can see why people still might refuse to play against FW.
If you want to field stuff from FW why not proxy them as ordinary units from the codex?
Those same people also aren't going to run the core codex units that are "ok at best".
The thing that is going to produce the most positive game experiences for both players is to have an understanding about the power level they want to play at, and how competitively they want to play it. Forge World vs Non-Forge World isn't a particularly useful metric for making those kinds of decisions. Someone who doesn't like to get blown by powerful units is going to have a very similar experience getting blown out by the best-of-the-best codex units as they will getting blown out by the best-of-the-best forge world units.
There is spectrum of power level in both sources of material. Simply accepting one or the other is going to do nothing to keep matches where one wants in that spectrum.
Broadly, I agree. People need to have similar expectations. However, you should read the first post in this thread. I am not a power gamer and never have been. In fact, I was looking for the same sort of fun match up that my opponent was looking for. What surprised me was the flat 'no FW' response without looking at the rest of the army or the load out of the model in question. I wasn't trying to nuke him Turn 1 or anything like it. And, in fact, once he'd eliminated the offending article from the table, he was quite a sound bloke. We had a good game.
Not everything is black & white. I think most people agree that in the context of my list, he was being a tad unreasonable. Within his rights but unreasonable all the same.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 18:51:47
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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jhnbrg wrote: Formosa wrote:
Find it hard to believe that FW stuff tends to be powerful, good sure, some of it, but most is ok at best, look at the omega tank destroyer for example, why would i take one over the tri las pred other than it looks so much cooler.
The thing is that people almost never field FW units that are "ok at best", its the few broken ones that always get spammed. I can see why people still might refuse to play against FW.
If you want to field stuff from FW why not proxy them as ordinary units from the codex?
I don't think that's true. I see a lot of Leviathans, a fair number of Xiphons, a few Spartans and the occasional Cerastus-Knight locally. None really push the envelope. The majority of FW in casual seems to be people who bought into 30K and want to be able to use their models more often than semi-annual conventions.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 18:58:36
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Banville wrote:
Broadly, I agree. People need to have similar expectations. However, you should read the first post in this thread. I am not a power gamer and never have been. In fact, I was looking for the same sort of fun match up that my opponent was looking for. What surprised me was the flat 'no FW' response without looking at the rest of the army or the load out of the model in question. I wasn't trying to nuke him Turn 1 or anything like it. And, in fact, once he'd eliminated the offending article from the table, he was quite a sound bloke. We had a good game.
Not everything is black & white. I think most people agree that in the context of my list, he was being a tad unreasonable. Within his rights but unreasonable all the same.
Well if he was looking to get fun, fair games he was acting in a way that does not do much to efficiently reach his goals. That's really my only point. I'm not looking to label things reasonable or unreasonable, at the end of the day that's pretty subjective. I'm also not looking to challenge the idea he's allowed to play how he wants, of course he's within his rights. He isn't stabbing anyone.
Really the only useful thing you can come out of a conversation this type of conversation is some idea of how you can have fun games for your and your opponent. Talking about the game you want and how you want it is just one of the most useful tools in that regard.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/10 19:02:02
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 19:34:54
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Asmodai wrote: jhnbrg wrote: Formosa wrote:
Find it hard to believe that FW stuff tends to be powerful, good sure, some of it, but most is ok at best, look at the omega tank destroyer for example, why would i take one over the tri las pred other than it looks so much cooler.
The thing is that people almost never field FW units that are "ok at best", its the few broken ones that always get spammed. I can see why people still might refuse to play against FW.
If you want to field stuff from FW why not proxy them as ordinary units from the codex?
I don't think that's true. I see a lot of Leviathans, a fair number of Xiphons, a few Spartans and the occasional Cerastus-Knight locally. None really push the envelope. The majority of FW in casual seems to be people who bought into 30K and want to be able to use their models more often than semi-annual conventions.
Yep totally agree, that’s why I said “most of the units I see” and not “most people take”
From what I’ve seen people are taking heresy units and useing them in 40k and if they are good, that’s a bonus, but anyone claiming that FW units are OP hasnt really got a clue or is just buying into the old FW hate, the majority of FW units or ok, only in competitive or tourney games are the powerful ones used I.E the minority of games.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 20:14:53
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
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jhnbrg wrote: Formosa wrote:
Find it hard to believe that FW stuff tends to be powerful, good sure, some of it, but most is ok at best, look at the omega tank destroyer for example, why would i take one over the tri las pred other than it looks so much cooler.
The thing is that people almost never field FW units that are "ok at best", its the few broken ones that always get spammed. I can see why people still might refuse to play against FW.
That would depend heavily on the playgroup, and in many instances that is no different from how people treat codex units too however.
If you want to field stuff from FW why not proxy them as ordinary units from the codex?
whats a Thudd Gun, Rapier Laser Destroyer, Chaos Fire Raptor, etc supposed to proxy themselves as?
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IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 21:44:37
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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Plummeting Black Templar Thunderhawk Pilot
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Adeptus Doritos wrote: conker249 wrote:I won't play against FW. It just sucks the fun out of the game for me. For my local Meta, I don't like playing against Khorne Brass Scorpions, Dread Claws, Impalers, Or Dark Eldar Tantulus and Reapers. Baneblades aren't fun either.
I just like regular Codex or regular Index. I lose a lot, which I am fine with, I just get utterly curbstomped or tabled quickly when those are on the field. At that point, I am really only continuing the match for my opponent to have fun, while looking at my watch hoping the match is over so I can drive 1.5 hours home and hope next weeks game goes better
Sounds like you need to worry less about your opponent and more about your own army. What stopped you from getting a FW model?
I have a few FW models that I paint. Primarchs, Deredeo Dreadnought. I like just regular Codex vs Regular Codex, Or regular Index. One rulebook, one codex(or index). Everyone here has a rulebook and a codex or index.The players who play FW, seem to never have their rules on hand, so it is a "trust me, this does this" or it is a screenshot on their phone. Its frustrating that rules cannot be verified (or that I can read to understand) they change, or magically "remember" certain rules later in the game when they benefit them. Again, My views towards FW are Local Meta. If I have a question on a unit for a blood angels player, I can ask to see his codex. If I have a question towards a FW unit, I cannot. It gets old really quick when I charge or shoot a unit, to find out what it does after the act.
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Black Templars 4000 Deathwatch 6000
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 21:47:25
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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War Walker Pilot with Withering Fire
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conker249 wrote: Adeptus Doritos wrote: conker249 wrote:I won't play against FW. It just sucks the fun out of the game for me. For my local Meta, I don't like playing against Khorne Brass Scorpions, Dread Claws, Impalers, Or Dark Eldar Tantulus and Reapers. Baneblades aren't fun either. I just like regular Codex or regular Index. I lose a lot, which I am fine with, I just get utterly curbstomped or tabled quickly when those are on the field. At that point, I am really only continuing the match for my opponent to have fun, while looking at my watch hoping the match is over so I can drive 1.5 hours home and hope next weeks game goes better Sounds like you need to worry less about your opponent and more about your own army. What stopped you from getting a FW model? I have a few FW models that I paint. Primarchs, Deredeo Dreadnought. I like just regular Codex vs Regular Codex, Or regular Index. One rulebook, one codex(or index). Everyone here has a rulebook and a codex or index.The players who play FW, seem to never have their rules on hand, so it is a "trust me, this does this" or it is a screenshot on their phone. Its frustrating that rules cannot be verified (or that I can read to understand) they change, or magically "remember" certain rules later in the game when they benefit them. Again, My views towards FW are Local Meta. If I have a question on a unit for a blood angels player, I can ask to see his codex. If I have a question towards a FW unit, I cannot. It gets old really quick when I charge or shoot a unit, to find out what it does after the act. Meh, I've had players pull this sort of stuff on me with codex units before, like thinking 8E units are still open-topped that are no longer. They come to the game similarly without their books and find those same phone screenshots or remember those same convenient rules later. It's a player issue, not a FW issue. I've also been guilty of variants of it, too - assuming my opponents knew that warp spiders could jump away last edition and then them getting upset as they messed up their plan...though I'd argue - for both FW and non- - that players are responsible for knowing both their and their opponent's army before the first round starts.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/10 21:49:03
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 21:51:13
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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conker249 wrote: Adeptus Doritos wrote: conker249 wrote:I won't play against FW. It just sucks the fun out of the game for me. For my local Meta, I don't like playing against Khorne Brass Scorpions, Dread Claws, Impalers, Or Dark Eldar Tantulus and Reapers. Baneblades aren't fun either.
I just like regular Codex or regular Index. I lose a lot, which I am fine with, I just get utterly curbstomped or tabled quickly when those are on the field. At that point, I am really only continuing the match for my opponent to have fun, while looking at my watch hoping the match is over so I can drive 1.5 hours home and hope next weeks game goes better
Sounds like you need to worry less about your opponent and more about your own army. What stopped you from getting a FW model?
I have a few FW models that I paint. Primarchs, Deredeo Dreadnought. I like just regular Codex vs Regular Codex, Or regular Index. One rulebook, one codex(or index). Everyone here has a rulebook and a codex or index.The players who play FW, seem to never have their rules on hand, so it is a "trust me, this does this" or it is a screenshot on their phone. Its frustrating that rules cannot be verified (or that I can read to understand) they change, or magically "remember" certain rules later in the game when they benefit them. Again, My views towards FW are Local Meta. If I have a question on a unit for a blood angels player, I can ask to see his codex. If I have a question towards a FW unit, I cannot. It gets old really quick when I charge or shoot a unit, to find out what it does after the act.
Actually that seems less like a problem for FW in general and more like a problem with your local players.
Sure you can blame Fw but the fact remains that it is the players fault that don't carry around their rules.
Basically a rule of thumb, if someone plays a Fw unit he will carry around a book more then normal people.
If he plays a FW subfaction (deathkorps, Corsairs, R&H, etc.) chances are he will be carrying 2 more books / printouts with him.
If he does not, and has no tablet with him then quite frankly he is a TFG that cheats and you should call him out for that.
( on a side note, for my R&H list i carry around:
-Codex astra militarum
-Codex csm
-Index astra militarum
- Index for Chaos vehicles forgot the name atm.
- ca
Basically i carry more rules then i carry in units for my army)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/10 21:56:17
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 21:54:01
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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Posts with Authority
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conker249 wrote:
I have a few FW models that I paint. Primarchs, Deredeo Dreadnought. I like just regular Codex vs Regular Codex, Or regular Index. One rulebook, one codex(or index). Everyone here has a rulebook and a codex or index.The players who play FW, seem to never have their rules on hand, so it is a "trust me, this does this" or it is a screenshot on their phone. Its frustrating that rules cannot be verified (or that I can read to understand) they change, or magically "remember" certain rules later in the game when they benefit them. Again, My views towards FW are Local Meta. If I have a question on a unit for a blood angels player, I can ask to see his codex. If I have a question towards a FW unit, I cannot. It gets old really quick when I charge or shoot a unit, to find out what it does after the act.
"No book, no game" isn't a problem here. Because the people who don't have the book don't get to play, at least with the dedicated players (now, if we know you as a friend and it's just the people who are close, that's a different thing). In the best way I can say this, it sounds like your local meta has a good chunk of trash.
Of course, I have seen this. And it isn't limited to FW books.
If you're going to assume the products are bad because there's scummy people playing them, then by that logic I'd have to hate 99% of the Tau players I've met. I can't tell you how many times one came to me with some printout, or those suits manifested new weapons, etc. Tau players were so bad, they earned a negative reputation in the local meta I played at- but that wasn't "Tau rules"... it was just a trend of scummy people picking up the same scummy habits.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/10 22:03:46
Mob Rule is not a rule. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 22:02:10
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Im usually fine with playing vs FW. I think they have some very cool models and some neat rules.
The one time I played against the Eldar Scorpion I got crushed. I asked my opponent next time simply not to bring it. He wasn't anyways.
I just didnt enjoy playing against it. I would have though.
Thats the only instance of me ever asking somebody to not bring something. Outside of maybe 100's of boys or troops.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/05/10 22:04:45
Subject: Game turned down because of a single Leviathan
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Posts with Authority
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rhinoceraids wrote:
Thats the only instance of me ever asking somebody to not bring something. Outside of maybe 100's of boys or troops.
This. This is absolutely the worst thing a person can bring to a game. Ever. One person did this to me, and never again.
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Mob Rule is not a rule. |
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