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StrayIight wrote:

I'm not going to lie, I'm pretty pissed off as a Renegade player. Parity between both factions would have been a piece of piss to achieve here, yet absolutely no effort toward this end has even seemingly been planned, let alone implemented.
How can anyone possibly be expected to take the idea of 40K as a competitive game seriously, when we can't even rely on identical units costing the same number of points for opposing factions? And let's face it, this is simply the most recent example among many :/

1) They do cost most identical units the same, but I'd love to see examples.
2) The Renegade box gives them an opportunity to print the rules for the Knight in the box with adjusted points.
3) Renegade Knights isn't a faction. It was a tack on model, because Chaos players were "what about uuuuss?!". You're going to have to wait for GW to flesh it out as a faction just like Ork, Space Wolves, and others need to wait for their turn.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

StrayIight wrote:

I'm not going to lie, I'm pretty pissed off as a Renegade player. Parity between both factions would have been a piece of piss to achieve here, yet absolutely no effort toward this end has even seemingly been planned, let alone implemented.
How can anyone possibly be expected to take the idea of 40K as a competitive game seriously, when we can't even rely on identical units costing the same number of points for opposing factions? And let's face it, this is simply the most recent example among many :/

1) They do cost most identical units the same, but I'd love to see examples.
2) The Renegade box gives them an opportunity to print the rules for the Knight in the box with adjusted points.
3) Renegade Knights isn't a faction. It was a tack on model, because Chaos players were "what about uuuuss?!". You're going to have to wait for GW to flesh it out as a faction just like Ork, Space Wolves, and others need to wait for their turn.

Renegades aren't a tack on model. To date, I can field *any* of the complete range of Knights (eight completely different models) as a Renegade House. I even get different rules on a couple of Knights, and unique supporting characters which affect my specific keywords, that the Imperial equivalents don't have access to.
Hell, you can even buy decal sheets for specific Renegade Houses.

I'm not asking for Codex: Renegades. I don't think it would be worth it in all honesty. I just want simple parity in terms of availability regarding points, and the new units, in a way which maintains some viability and supports the fluff. And you know what? That shouldn't have been a big ask.

Youre reaching with the FW stuff. None of those are getting updated on the imperium side right now.

It's a really big ask. GW doesn't do carbon copy factions. Not to mention the fluff, painting up models for the images, and an analogue for the castellan.

I'm pretty sure that GW said that Renegade rules will be in the box set. If that's the case then chaos players get to use those rules since that would be the latest data sheet for those models.

Whether there will be any change from the index is another matter.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Youre reaching with the FW stuff. None of those are getting updated on the imperium side right now.

It's a really big ask. GW doesn't do carbon copy factions. Not to mention the fluff, painting up models for the images, and an analogue for the castellan.

...why would you need an analogue? Just mirror the Castellan. It's not new, it's an existing Knight in lore with a new model. The same Knights literally exist on both side of the Chaos / Imperial divide, it's basically as mirrored in fluff as it gets. Literally the only thing that was needed, was a single paragraph stating you could change the keyword 'Questor Imperialis' to 'Questor Traitorus', and switch 'Imperium' to 'Chaos'. It really couldn't have been simpler. It certainly doesn't require models to be painted O.o - that I would call reaching. And what change to the fluff exactly? None is needed. Knight Houses exist on both sides in the fluff and operate the same equipment, in fact, some of the Traitor Houses are better defined in fluff, than most of the Loyalist ones!

Are you literally just arguing for the sake of arguing here? Would it somehow offend you if the fluff was quickly, accurately and sensibly supported by an FAQ so those of us that play Renegade Houses, can get on and do so properly?
So we can know whether we're wasting our money by investing in a £100+ kit, (supporting the rest of the game at the same time by doing so?)

...these seem really rather sensible concerns - where is the issue in pointing out that the ball was really really obviously dropped? O.o




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I'm pretty sure that GW said that Renegade rules will be in the box set. If that's the case then chaos players get to use those rules since that would be the latest data sheet for those models.

Whether there will be any change from the index is another matter.

They didn't. Renegades is a stand alone game that uses different rules from 40K. GW have stated that there will be no Renegade House updates whatsoever in this release. They can't - or won't - even say whether there is any intention of amending this in the future. In fact, if you ask, depending on whom you speak to, they literally just take the piss...

StrayIight wrote:
...why would you need an analogue? Just mirror the Castellan. It's not new, it's an existing Knight in lore with a new model. The same Knights literally exist on both side of the Chaos / Imperial divide, it's basically as mirrored in fluff as it gets. Literally the only thing that was needed, was a single paragraph stating you could change the keyword 'Questor Imperialis' to 'Questor Traitorus', and switch 'Imperium' to 'Chaos'. It really couldn't have been simpler. It certainly doesn't require models to be painted O.o - that I would call reaching. And what change to the fluff exactly? None is needed. Knight Houses exist on both sides in the fluff and operate the same equipment, in fact, some of the Traitor Houses are better defined in fluff, than most of the Loyalist ones!

Well, a way to think about it is to compare Knights with Guard. It would have been easy for GW to provide a rule swapping the keyword 'Astra Militarum' with 'Renegades and Heretics,' but they didn't do that. They wanted to give each army it's own flavor... with one being substantially more bitter than the other. It's just how they work, there's no exact parity between factions.

StrayIight wrote:

...why would you need an analogue? Just mirror the Castellan. It's not new, it's an existing Knight in lore with a new model. The same Knights literally exist on both side of the Chaos / Imperial divide, it's basically as mirrored in fluff as it gets. Literally the only thing that was needed, was a single paragraph stating you could change the keyword 'Questor Imperialis' to 'Questor Traitorus', and switch 'Imperium' to 'Chaos'. It really couldn't have been simpler. It certainly doesn't require models to be painted O.o - that I would call reaching. And what change to the fluff exactly? None is needed. Knight Houses exist on both sides in the fluff and operate the same equipment, in fact, some of the Traitor Houses are better defined in fluff, than most of the Loyalist ones!

Are you literally just arguing for the sake of arguing here? Would it somehow offend you if the fluff was quickly, accurately and sensibly supported by an FAQ so those of us that play Renegade Houses, can get on and do so properly?
So we can know whether we're wasting our money by investing in a £100+ kit, (supporting the rest of the game at the same time by doing so?)

...these seem really rather sensible concerns - where is the issue in pointing out that the ball was really really obviously dropped? O.o

If they made a carbon copy we'd be listening to people bitch about GW phoning it in. There are lots of things that don't have a codex yet. This is just the Renegade flavor of "what about me". It used to be sisters, but currently is owned by Orks.

We have no idea what the fluff on the Castellan is and most likely it's an RG creation, which means it does not exist for Chaos to use. You have one datasheet that falls under GW proper. You won't be getting access to Errant/Paladin/etc, because you have more flexible weapon choices.

And then we'd have people who own Kytans bitching, because those wouldn't be addressed in that book. And why don't Scorpions get added? Or should GW make another separate book for knight level FW models that aren't knights?

There's sensible concerns and there's hamfisting a faction into a book for the sake of want. You're just going to have to wait.

 techsoldaten wrote:


Well, a way to think about it is to compare Knights with Guard. It would have been easy for GW to provide a rule swapping the keyword 'Astra Militarum' with 'Renegades and Heretics,' but they didn't do that. They wanted to give each army it's own flavor... with one being substantially more bitter than the other. It's just how they work, there's no exact parity between factions.

I fully understand that. I have no issue with it either.

But we've had an established sub faction in Knights with basic parity between Chaos/Imperial for several years now. We can guess at intent on GW's part, but the fact is, they're saying they have no intent currently. Surely then this whole point about it not being possible because they 'don't do parity' just doesn't hold up.
Until this point, we've essentially HAD parity except for the small differences of a minor extra rule on the Atrapos, and free-form standard Knights vs named load outs. From a rules perspective, there has been no real disparity.

Now, it's become huge.

The point is, we'd just like to know where we stand. And GW couldn't be more unhelpful here. Orks have had to wait, but they know a Codex is coming. Space Wolves are in the same place as Orks.

Renegades, know nothing. Not even whether there's a likelihood of consideration. I think having paid our 'hobby tax' the same as everyone else, we should be afforded a heads up. That's all.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


If they made a carbon copy we'd be listening to people bitch about GW phoning it in. There are lots of things that don't have a codex yet. This is just the Renegade flavor of "what about me". It used to be sisters, but currently is owned by Orks.

We have no idea what the fluff on the Castellan is and most likely it's an RG creation, which means it does not exist for Chaos to use. You have one datasheet that falls under GW proper. You won't be getting access to Errant/Paladin/etc, because you have more flexible weapon choices.

And then we'd have people who own Kytans bitching, because those wouldn't be addressed in that book. And why don't Scorpions get added? Or should GW make another separate book for knight level FW models that aren't knights?

There's sensible concerns and there's hamfisting a faction into a book for the sake of want. You're just going to have to wait.

Alright, firstly, and again, the Castellan existed back in Epic. It's been around for decades - it isn't new. Not to the 40K universe. This model is new, nothing more. You don't get to state 'it was probably Girlyman, so you can't have it', that's just pulling lore out of your arse. What kind of point is that?

Kytans? Kytans aren't relevant. At all. Are Kytans a standalone faction with historical support? Renegade Knights are. A small one, yes. Not a popular one either. Maybe even one you don't care for. But that's all irrelevant... would you like more straw for the man shaped effigy you're constructing here?

'You're just going to have to wait.'

I'm fine with waiting. But do you know what the difference is here between Renegades, Sisters and Orks? The latter two know they have something to wait FOR. That's the point here. Waiting can't be helped, but we'd love just to know from GW if there IS even anything coming our way. Because right now we're in limbo. I don't think anyone else is in that position.

StrayIight wrote:

Kytans? Kytans aren't relevant. At all. Are Kytans a standalone faction with historical support? Renegade Knights are. A small one, yes. Not a popular one either. Maybe even one you don't care for. But that's all irrelevant... would you like more straw for the man shaped effigy you're constructing here?

You view Kytans as not worthy of a codex, but it's only a small step to apply that to RKs. Renegade Knights had no GW support until the box set came out. FW models are not GW models. GW does not write codexes for FW and often times stratagems exclude them.

I'm fine with waiting. But do you know what the difference is here between Renegades, Sisters and Orks? The latter two know they have something to wait FOR. That's the point here. Waiting can't be helped, but we'd love just to know from GW if there IS even anything coming our way. Because right now we're in limbo. I don't think anyone else is in that position.

A knight can be relevant with good points. And GW isn't going to say or promise anything, because Dark Mechanicus probably isn't on the radar for the next year and a half or more.

If you want something out of them the best thing to do is petition them politely and regularly. There's nothing that getting upset/frustrated will solve.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


You view Kytans as not worthy of a codex, but it's only a small step to apply that to RKs. Renegade Knights had no GW support until the box set came out. FW models are not GW models. GW does not write codexes for FW and often times stratagems exclude them.

I'm sorry but both FW and Citadel models are GW models. Renegade Knights aren't limited to that one box set... and sorry, but the GW rules team have been dealing with them in various forms, again for decades - even if we're only talking about the old Epic system. As an aside, the debate regarding an invisible dividing line between FW and everything else is old and tired and has been without merit for an age. Please stop throwing this silliness around.

A Kytan is a straw man, I'm sorry buddy, but it really is. It's a single unit operated by various entities. It's not remotely the same thing as a complete organised standalone force - that is what a Renegade House is. I think you're not seeing beyond people fielding a single model in support. Many of us, Imperial and Renegade, field Knights as a full army. While this is of course optional, it's supported by fluff, and intended.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

A knight can be relevant with good points.

I agree. But right now we don't even know if there will be a point reduction to normalise things. I suspect we'll see one eventually, but how much does it cost to simple say; 'Yep, we'll sort that out soon'. You could knock out that FAQ in your lunch break, you know?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

And GW isn't going to say or promise anything, because Dark Mechanicus probably isn't on the radar for the next year and a half or more.

No promises needed, no time frames either. Just a comment beyond: 'Lol, serves you right for turning your back on the Emperor.' - which is exactly what I got when I asked the question politely and reasonably. I wasn't the only person asking either. It got to the point where the question was asked so frequently, they put up a 'cover all' statement which basically said 'no news, but we'll let you know if anything ever happens'.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

If you want something out of them the best thing to do is petition them politely and regularly. There's nothing that getting upset/frustrated will solve.

This is good advice, and I respect and agree with it. But this thread is about discussing the lack of the appearance of Renegades in this codex, it's not about polite requests to GW :/ - but believe me, they're being made.

Dude, Knights have been a faction (maybe not in 40k but in their lore and other games) since the early 90s or late 80s. They're one if the oldest things in the 40k lore that still survives. It's ahout the only faction I'm happy to have its own codex after being told about all thier lore. Therefore, I don't see them as a tac on at all.

StrayIight wrote:

 BleachHawk wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

Well, the index chaos knight is actually WAY more freeform in wargear options...But yeah. No tactics, stratagems or interaction whatsoever blows hard.

This. And to add insult to injury GW proposes buying the Renegade box, so Chaos players can use both Knights using the Index rules.
Who is gonna buy these things, knowing his Imperial Buddy's Knights will just kick his ass with their Strats, Traits and so on?

Not to mention he'll pay less in points, vastly less, for the same gear (though I'd like to think that at least will be swiftly FAQ'd).

There are reasonable indications that Imperial players will have access to the previously 'Renegade only' setups like Twin Avengers etc. Possibly via Freeblades. It's been spotted on various places around the net that GW staff - some pretty senior, have been building Knights ready for the Codex release with setups like Twin Avengers...

I'm not going to lie, I'm pretty pissed off as a Renegade player. Parity between both factions would have been a piece of piss to achieve here, yet absolutely no effort toward this end has even seemingly been planned, let alone implemented.
How can anyone possibly be expected to take the idea of 40K as a competitive game seriously

Well, I think I found your problem.

 Sim-Life wrote:

StrayIight wrote:

 BleachHawk wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

Well, the index chaos knight is actually WAY more freeform in wargear options...But yeah. No tactics, stratagems or interaction whatsoever blows hard.

This. And to add insult to injury GW proposes buying the Renegade box, so Chaos players can use both Knights using the Index rules.
Who is gonna buy these things, knowing his Imperial Buddy's Knights will just kick his ass with their Strats, Traits and so on?

Not to mention he'll pay less in points, vastly less, for the same gear (though I'd like to think that at least will be swiftly FAQ'd).

There are reasonable indications that Imperial players will have access to the previously 'Renegade only' setups like Twin Avengers etc. Possibly via Freeblades. It's been spotted on various places around the net that GW staff - some pretty senior, have been building Knights ready for the Codex release with setups like Twin Avengers...

I'm not going to lie, I'm pretty pissed off as a Renegade player. Parity between both factions would have been a piece of piss to achieve here, yet absolutely no effort toward this end has even seemingly been planned, let alone implemented.
How can anyone possibly be expected to take the idea of 40K as a competitive game seriously

Well, I think I found your problem.

Fair point