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 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Vash108 wrote:

I feel like every turn a Knight isn't shooting/charging/meleeing it is a huge waste. I can't even think of a situation it would be worth doing, even if you had the opponent on the ropes and your just sending a different knight a turn to go back and repair, it would still be better just go keep laying into them.

To put a bit more science behind that - shooting a D6 gun twice will give you a better result than skipping a turn to use the forge 58% of the time, an equal result 14% of the time and a worse result only 28% of the time.

So your big gun actually shoots better without the forge most of the time (it's only worse 1/4 of the time) and that's without considering CP rerolls.

Add in that you're giving up on shooting the rest of the guns for a turn and a turn of melee and it just doesn't add up.

It's even worse than that when you consider the time value of money baked into attrition. Buy now, pay later is generally the most overpowered thing you can get in a turn based game. Pay now, maybe buy later is definitely not.

Seems like it's usefullness depends on whether or not you can stay out of line-of-sight on the turn you're using it - or at least out of line-of-sight of a few units.

example: Enemy has 6 lascannons.

While using the forge you can be targeted by say.. 1 for this example.

While out shooting crap up, you can be targeted by all 6.

So, without the forge, you're exposed to 12 lascannon shots and average 7 shots for a d6. With the forge, you're exposed to 7 lascannon shots and get 6 shots.

WS4 7 las shots = 9.333 damage
WS3 7 las shots = 12.444 damage

WS4 12 las shots = 16 damage
WS3 12 las shots = 21.333 damage

Rolled vs t8/3+/5++ no rerolls. If you were to add in rerolls, you've probably got a dead knight the 2nd turn vs 12 las shots.

additionally, your 2nd shot may be at a lower WS without the forge if you get shot pretty badly the first round.

Ok; you guys forced my hand.

Comprehensive review:
TL;DR: Garbage but technically worth the points(just not to knights)

So let's just jump straight to why/how it is worth the points. The Forgeshrine is not a building, so it is an indestructible terrain piece fortification that provides units on it a Cover Save Bonus. Well the first thing I had to do is look at the point values of other fortifications that do the same thing: The Aegis Defense Line and Imperial Defense Line. The ADL is 5 points cheaper without a gun emplacement(not that you can take it without one), and the Cover save is dependent on intervening between the firing unit and the grantees. The IDL is 5 points more, also dependent on Intervening, and grants a Ld bonus.
The Forgeshrine Cover Save Bonus is regardless of LOS(for Infantry at least), and provides a measure of Assault defence from Vehicles, Monsters, Beasts, and Cavalry. The Latter of which the ADL and IDL do not do.

Now on to some of the major issues with the Forgeshrine:
- While technically worth the points just for the defensive capabilities, any Sector Mechanicus terrain pieces do the same thing for free and without taking up a fortification detachment
-In order to get the most benefit from this pile of garbage you really have to take 3 detachments: Fortification Network, Any Knight Superheavy/Auxiliary detachment, and any non-knight Imperial detachment with Infantry.
-The Auto-sacristan ability basically has the Knight "shut-down" for the rest of the turn while applying the "benefit".
-Most of the "benefits" aren't any better than just taking the same actions for both turns. Examples: Rite of refueling is negated by simply Advancing past the Forgeshrine that turn(at most of the same shooting cost). Ritual of reloading, other than replacing spent Sheildbreaker Missiles, Nets an average additional shot from just firing the random shots gun both turns.

Now for the How/why/and when to take and use this fortification:
-Knights as Support to an Imperial Army: 1-2 Knights With any Flavour of Space marines, Astra Militarum, or Admech as the Main Army. Make sure you have a Techmarine or Tech-priest model setup on the Forgeshrine along with some long-range heavy weapon models(HWTs, Devs, Kataphron Destroyers, Skitarri Rangers with Arqubus', etc). Keeping your support-knight alive is going to be a high priority to begin with, enacting the Ritual of repairing in later turns will keep it kicking a bit longer. This is only really useful for Longer Ranged Fire support knights such as the Castelan, Paladin, or Crusader w/RFBC; A carapace weapon on the Questoris Class knights is also a good Idea.
-Taking any sort of Questor Imperialis allegiance knights: these guys cannot be healed by anything other than the Forgeshrine, so if you want to keep them alive and/or fully functional you will have to use the Ritual of Repairing(the Full 3W from Techmarine/-priest models still applies even though these models cannot themselves repair the knight RAW)
-Taking a Support Dominus Class knight and making Heavy use of the Oathbreaker Guidance Strat: Having a Forgeshrine means that you do not have to take 4 Sheildbreakers(unless you are trying to save points), you can still Fire Both missiles turns 1 & 2, ritual of Reloading turn 3, and then Fire them again turn 4 & 5. Not the best but still reasonable for late-game Character Sniping; as a Support Knight, your Main Imp Force should have provided you with more than enough CPs to pop 4 Oathbreakers(especially if the Main force is a Brigade of IG)

I believe the only use is for the big knight with the giant 3d6 flamer agaisnt a meele army. Put him here the first turn, second turn the enemy will be charging you or allready in your face.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
You guys are forgetting that a 47 pt techpriest can heal up to 4 wounds on his own. An admech techpriest with the autodecaneos of Arkhan land and the strategem heals 4 wounds in a single turn (1 base +1 for Arkhan land, then double that as you repair second time with strat)

Which means there's pretty much no point to the repair bay. It's best use is ironically cover, if it was on a base it could actually give cover to knights if you placed it backward which would be huge. You could just turtle a knight behind it, meaning you'd basically be paying 80pts for a +2 armor save. However cover doesn't work that way and it doesn't come on a base so as it sits the terrain piece is useless for nowm

Wouldn't you need to add more than just him to stick him in a detachment? 80pts for terrain and then 47 for the priest + what ever else?

I don't understand, we're ironically defending these terrible rules, right?

I mean, that's the only scenario that makes sense.

No just trying to find some use for the garbage rules, all while acknowledging that they are garbage.

P.S.:I was wrong about the bonus healing for questor mechanicus; ritual of repair does specify that the tech marine/-priest is assisting repairs instead of using their own ability. So you would need a second Tech-priest near the knight for the additional 1 or 4(with the admech relic and strat burn) regained W.

Regaining 1/4th of a knight's wounds might still be worth 174 points, some CPs, and loss of shooting from the knight that turn if it is done before the first degradation. :shrug:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
No just trying to find some use for the garbage rules, all while acknowledging that they are garbage.

P.S.:I was wrong about the bonus healing for questor mechanicus; ritual of repair does specify that the tech marine/-priest is assisting repairs instead of using their own ability. So you would need a second Tech-priest near the knight for the additional 1 or 4(with the admech relic and strat burn) regained W.

Regaining 1/4th of a knight's wounds might still be worth 174 points, some CPs, and loss of shooting from the knight that turn if it is done before the first degradation. :shrug:

My issue isn't so much with the shrine its the bonus just being flat not worth the cost.

Copy paste of my opinion on this piece of junk from another thread....

The Sacristan Shrine knight scenery piece COULD have been so good...

I'm not one to get angry or rage at GW for shonky rules but I am a bit sad at such a hugely missed opportunity. Paying 80 points and skipping an entire turn to heal d3 wounds?!?!!??!?! Are you crazy??!?!

Here are three ways in which it could have worked which might make it worth taking... in order of preference from 1 to 3.

1. You got the bonus before the negative.
If you end your movement within 1" of the Shrine, in your next shooting phase you get to do one of the standard rites. In your next turn, the knight cannot move, shoot or charge and is reduced to 1 attack.
At least you get the benefit immediately, at full BS on turn one. Then you sacrifice T2 to reload/refuel and can act normally again in T3.

2. The benefits were pretty much tripled
You give up a turn as per standard rules. Then in in the next turn you can either:
- Heal 3d3 wounds
- Fire any one weapon 3 times instead of once
- Move twice in your movement phase as per your current Move characteristic

3. You got all the benefits, not just one.
You give up a turn as per standard rules. Then in your next turn you heal d3 wounds AND fire at maximum capacity AND get a bonus 6".


Anyway, pure theory and wishlisting but if one of the above were the rules it would be an interesting and compelling new model.

As it is, by the time you get a benefit you have skipped a whole turn and are probably hitting on 4's or 5's anyway!

Nuts.

I'm building it and putting it on battlefields as terrain. It looks really good.

It's pretty useful as a handicap.

CelticKodiak wrote:
Skimming the codex, I saw the Sacristan Forgeshrine, it gives a lot of benefits to a unit that uses it in battle, and for 80 points you get a non-mobile repair/reload/refuel platform. If you stick a tech-priest or techmarine on it, you don't have to randomize the repair, its just a straight 3HP, and the refueling allows a vehicle to move 6" more on their next movement. Both nice, but what I really want to get into is if the 80 points for the Sacristan Forgeshrine is worth having the ability to remove the random amount of shots for weapons of a Knight. This, in my mind, makes the Castellan WAY more useful than the Valiant in most cases, given that he has the ability to camp on the Sacristan Forgeshrine. On setup you can put the Castellan right next to the SF, it can fire all 6 shots of its Volcano Lance without a roll, it just fires 6 shots, making the Volcano Cannon a guaranteed amount of shots and making it way more reliable than, say, the Harpoon, which only gets one shot and only gets rerolls on vehicles and monsters, but has way more strength, removes all armor save, and does a flat 10 damage and D3 mortal wounds.

The caveat to this is that it cannot affect any heirloom weapons, so if you upgrade the Castellan's plasma weapon, then it can only get its random shots, and also makes is useless with the Valiant. The Crusader also gets a great benefit from the SF, but I feel like in choosing the big Knights, that having a SF makes the Castellan far more useful than the Valiant, but I also feel like it makes that Castellan and the SF itself a huge target.

It's 100% useless for knights except for hyper rare scenario where you have valiant without relic weapon with all enemy outside range T1 and deep strikers.

Only things that benefit from it are non knights. Knights don't want to reload. It takes entire turn which isn't worth it. For non knights it at least is terrain but for knights it's too small for that as it gives no cover for them.

In that scenario; you are better off just firing to siegebreakers and a sheildbreaker.

Or advancing.

Basically anything that is not using the reload.

The serious only use for the auto-sacristan is healing; and even that is super-situational and almost requires your knight to be in support of a larger imperial force; or one of a great many knights that the enemy needs to target.

Basically in order to use the thing you have to present a more pressing threat to your opponent, if that more pressing threat is also a knight; then he is going to need to use it afterwards.