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 Da Boss wrote:

Why the animosity though? What is so awful about Europe?

it’s one size fits all mentality .
the financial problems brought about by the Euro.
It's non democratic with officials that are bureaucrats not elected by the people with no interest in the people.
red tape that the EU bureaucrats think is the answer to everything.
Thd move toward a federal European superstate.
Being beholden to foreign powers.
Laws you MUST follow even if you disagree and not for the good of the people.
Being forced to take in immigrants when your country has no room and the people don't want them.

Heck the basic foundation of the European union was created by nazi Germany

My family from Canary Islands think of themselves as european even as I insist to them that they are african

Myself? I think of myself in this order :Galician->Galaico-portuguese->Spanish->Hispanic->European.

I feel more conected with central and south america that with everything northerm of the pirinees, not only because of the lenguage, but because our social values are much closer.
Im more a Conquistador guy than a Knight one if you know what I mean.

ValentineGames wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:

Why the animosity though? What is so awful about Europe?

it’s one size fits all mentality .
the financial problems brought about by the Euro.
It's non democratic with officials that are bureaucrats not elected by the people with no interest in the people.
red tape that the EU bureaucrats think is the answer to everything.
Thd move toward a federal European superstate.
Being beholden to foreign powers.
Laws you MUST follow even if you disagree and not for the good of the people.
Being forced to take in immigrants when your country has no room and the people don't want them.

One size fits all mentality - and this does not apply to the UK, where Scotland and Northern Ireland voted not to have brexit but get it anyway?
Financial problems brought about by the Euro - but what about the finanicial problems solved by the Euro?
Non democratic - Your head of state is a heriditary monarchy and you have the biggest unelected house in Europe. The Commissioners are appointed by democratically elected government, the MEPs are directly elected and the presidents are appointed by the biggest groups in Parliament, in exactly the same way as the UK does it.
Red Tape - and the UK does not have Red Tape? I lived there, and I'm shaking my head at this one.
Federal European Superstate - fair enough, though that sounds awesome to me.
Being beholden to Foreign Powers- As one of the big three decision makers in the EU, you were able to make others beholden to YOU. Now, as an outsider, you will be more beholden to foreign powers than ever. Welcome to not being a world superpower anymore. Scotland and Northern Ireland are beholden to Westminster even though many of the people living there consider it a "foreign power".
Laws you must follow - is that not the case in every country?
Being forced to take in immigrants - so do you mean European migrants? If so, your government had options to limit the number who came which they did not use, their own fault. If it is asylum seekers, I think the UK should take the lion's share actually, given that they were so gung ho in blowing the crap out of Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya.

 Da Boss wrote:
Mainland Europe and Ireland, please. We very much consider ourselves European.

I think you guys are more culturally European than American, but that is an outsider's perspective. You have much more in common with Germany or France than you do with America, outside of language.

Why the animosity though? What is so awful about Europe?

I don't consider us culturally close to America either. Britain has always been an island, we've always been rivals with France, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Italy, etc. We've also been at odds with both America and Island, and while we have some rivalry with Europe, I've known people in Britain to actually hate Americans or Irish.

We're closer to Europe than America but there are very few British people who would ever introduce themselves as European and would even correct people who called them European.

mrhappyface: I just find that deeply weird, as I doubt a Japanese person would object to being called Asian, or a person from Madagascar would object to being called African.

Another Brexit thread. Great!

Sorry! I think a thread started by a British person asking if you feel European in 2018 always has that undertone.

 djones520 wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
mrhappyface: You are european though. Are Japanese people not Asian?

The discussion is about a unified culture. There is no unified Asian culture, or a unified African culture, or North American culture. While Europe is in a unique position that one does seem to be growing, you certainly don't get to tell other people whether or not they are a part of it.

But there is a unified European culture? I think not!

Steelmage99 wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
mrhappyface: You are european though. Are Japanese people not Asian?

The discussion is about a unified culture. There is no unified Asian culture, or a unified African culture, or North American culture. While Europe is in a unique position that one does seem to be growing, you certainly don't get to tell other people whether or not they are a part of it.

But there is a unified European culture? I think not!

Finish reading what I typed...

But I mean, is there a unified US culture, or even a unified French culture? Labels always allow for some contradiction, some shades of grey, and some push and pull.

 Da Boss wrote:
mrhappyface: I just find that deeply weird, as I doubt a Japanese person would object to being called Asian, or a person from Madagascar would object to being called African.

But European has different connotations now that there is a unifying European state. If China, Russia, Korea 1 & 2, etc. started an Asian Union and Japan was apposed to that, they may well object to being called Asian.

[quote=ValentineGames 759667 10046433

Laws you MUST follow even if you disagree and not for the good of the people.

 Da Boss wrote:
But I mean, is there a unified US culture, or even a unified French culture? Labels always allow for some contradiction, some shades of grey, and some push and pull.

There is, but we also have many sub-cultures. Our unified culture is often buried, but whenever the nation as a whole is impacted, it comes out strong. Just look at us in the time immediately following 9/11.

 djones520 wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
mrhappyface: You are european though. Are Japanese people not Asian?

The discussion is about a unified culture. There is no unified Asian culture, or a unified African culture, or North American culture. While Europe is in a unique position that one does seem to be growing, you certainly don't get to tell other people whether or not they are a part of it.

But there is a unified European culture? I think not!

Finish reading what I typed...

I get the point you are making. We are talking about culture - not just our geographical location.
I also get that you (generic "you") don't get to dictate whether a person is part of a given culture.

I am questioning you assertion that there is a unified European culture (or that one is growing).

ValentineGames wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:

Why the animosity though? What is so awful about Europe?

it’s one size fits all mentality .
the financial problems brought about by the Euro.
It's non democratic with officials that are bureaucrats not elected by the people with no interest in the people.
red tape that the EU bureaucrats think is the answer to everything.
Thd move toward a federal European superstate.
Being beholden to foreign powers.
Laws you MUST follow even if you disagree and not for the good of the people.
Being forced to take in immigrants when your country has no room and the people don't want them.

Your problems seem to be with the political entity of the EU, rather than the geopolitical unit called Europe or the diverse-but-interwoven cultural blocks that characterise it. Do you feel no cultural ties to Europe or do you simply dislike its largest political institution?

Heck the basic foundation of the European union was created by nazi Germany

As in it was the response of the European parties that defeated it?

A lot of the basic foundation of the European union was created by Britain actually.

ValentineGames wrote:
I'm English.
Europe can shove itself.
I have zero connection to Europe and cannot stand some foreign power creating our rules and demanding money for the 'privilege' while not giving a gak about bigger issues like immigration.
Can't wait til Brexit actually kicks in and we can leave hitlers dream

By that logic you hate the US too and China, since thier actions and “rules” have a direct impact on our lives, economic crash anyone?

Also WE as in the U.K. created a hell of a lot of the rules that Govern the EU, the very rules they ask us to abide by... such cads those Europeans.

Look I get that you want brexit to go through, so do I, I just want it out of the way so we can get on with our lives and pick up the pieces, but please stop making the rest of us look stupid and go and educate yourself about the history of the EU before you spout more daily mail bollocks.

 Da Boss wrote:
mrhappyface: You are european though. Are Japanese people not Asian?

Is Russia European is still a interesting question I hoped you might answer? Do you feel that its all European nations are "one" as defined by Geography or just those in the EU?

I don't really feel European as such, what happens "on the continent" has always felt like a separate entity.

I would agree with this - Its kind what I feel - for wahtever reason I look more West than East - its certinaly simpler.

I also find interesting that we have a British and US Politics thread bnut not a European or EU or whatever.

I was thinking about starting an EU politics thread, but thought that I might try some threads discussing individual issues such as the Roma Census first. Given the weak response to that thread, I am not sure that a European politics thread would take off at all.

As to Russia, I think Russia is an interesting case. It is certainly geographically close to Europe, but it is so massive and has had a seperate political identity and geopolitical goals for so long that I consider it seperately. I think I would consider the parts of Russia close to the West to be geographically in Europe, in the same way Istanbul is, but once you cross a certain line you are in Asia. Russia straddles both.

I feel that all European nations have things in common, something like a common culture, but I think those within the EU are obviously more part of that common culture than those outside. Since Britain has been a big player in the EU since it joined, and has had a strong influence on the common European culture, I find it really weird that so many Britons do not consider themselves European.

Edit: Also I am not sure the poor Mods would thank me for giving them another thread to moderate

 Overread wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Its something I have been thinkning about with the ongoing Brexit situtation.

I personally have always felt closer to the US - maybe its the shared language or culture but it has always seemed more familiar and understandable.

It probably has more to do with the fact that the UK media has a heavy bias for the USA and reports very little on what happens in Europe in comparison. As a result the UK can feel closer to the USA because we just hear about the USA a lot lot more than any other country. The shared language does also make casual awareness easier, but don't forget most European countries learn English as a second language, so its not that huge a divide.

Well, the United States is a former British colony (the original 13 States and eastern territories/Oregon territory) and is an Anglosphere nation. You see something similar here with the ongoing facsination with the Royal Family, and pride in 18th Century British influence/culture in the former colonies (even in areas that were formerly Dutch or settled heavily by Germans).

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
mrhappyface: You are european though. Are Japanese people not Asian?

Is Russia European is still a interesting question I hoped you might answer? Do you feel that its all European nations are "one" as defined by Geography or just those in the EU?

I don't really feel European as such, what happens "on the continent" has always felt like a separate entity.

I would agree with this - Its kind what I feel - for wahtever reason I look more West than East - its certinaly simpler.

I also find interesting that we have a British and US Politics thread bnut not a European or EU or whatever.

I mean, that's a function of the news as well though isn't it. What's actually telling is that the only dedicated Europe-focused current affairs show on UK television was(I can't speak to the last four years as I no longer have a TV license) Eòrpa, a Gaelic language show produced on a shoestring(though excellent) by BBC Alba that got a broadcast time on BBC2 on Saturday evenings at meal time(and I'm not even sure if that was nationwide, it could just have been BBC2 Scotland) to ensure as few folk as possible would watch it. America and American goings-on are a fairly constant presence in the evening news, but prior to the whole Brexit debacle Europe was only ever a feature when there was some kind of political strife(often overblown), salacious gossip about an EU politician, or as part of the newspaper review segments which in practice were a torrent of absolute garbage, lies, and misinformation since the print press outside of the Guardian and the Financial Times skew pretty heavily anti-EU and anti-immigration.

If you wanted to know what was happening "on the continent" you had to already have an active interest and purposefully go and seek out things like the English language versions of channels like France24, or find ways to watch Irish TV news online, while American news is doled out several times a week as part of the regular news cycle, so of course normal non-political wonk people feel European goings on are more distant feeling than America's.

I'll never get why Britain is so keen to be America's handbag-dog when we could have been an equal and major partner in Europe. I mean, I understand why, it's a hangover from the complete failure of Britain to deal with and move past the loss of the Empire that prevents many from acknowledging any other nation as an equal, let alone "the frogs" etc, I just don't understand why so few folk seem able to see it.

Not sure - I would think that Britian has had more influence on and had considerable influence from many far flung nations be they former Colonies or part of the old Empire or trading partners. When you look at nations such as Australia, India and the US - the continuing cultural transmission between us, back and forth seems higher than that with Europe which I think to not a few people many in the UK is associated with warfare.

I have only a passing interest and knowledge in US Politics but then again I probably know less about European - Do they have anything like the West Wing to draw interest in the workings if it? A thread might well draw my interest - I did read your Italian thread but didn;t really have anythng to contribute.

The cultural areas I do find of interest in mainland Europe (and again it’s a telling phrase that’s often used) tend to be older - ancient history through to Napoleonic are periods I have read more on.

As to Russia, I think Russia is an interesting case. It is certainly geographically close to Europe, but it is so massive and has had a seperate political identity and geopolitical goals for so long that I consider it seperately. I think I would consider the parts of Russia close to the West to be geographically in Europe, in the same way Istanbul is, but once you cross a certain line you are in Asia. Russia straddles both.

But you would then have the same issue with China and being Asian?

 Da Boss wrote:
...but like, Britain is just undeniably a European country. It is in Europe. It's a very weird thing to say that you are not European when your country is obviously in Europe. I find it fascinating, this animosity and weird hostility.

funny what 30 odd miles of water will do to

I don't feel particularly European but don't really feel any animosity or hostility towards it ( I save that for Cornwall)

Yodhrin: It's not even "could have been" - Britain was one of the most powerful countries in Europe and had a great position. Other countries really liked you guys.

That is broadly over now, sadly.

Edit: Turnip Jedi: Well, for Ireland, there is even more water between us and the continent, but we are very pro-Europe and have a strong European identity. So I don't think it can be explained by being an island alone.

maybe but given none of the EU powers have meddled with the same sort of spiteful and bloody bloodymindedness as the English I think there's an element of enemy of my enemy to consider there

I mean it's undeniably true that membership of the EU allowed us to get out from under Britain's shadow and trade on a more equitable footing. We all learn about the Economic War in history class and realize that outside the EU we'd be pushed around by the UK. (Indeed, early in the Brexit process you could see the UK trying to push us around, and it is only with the backing of our 26 friends in the EU that we have gotten our interests considered fairly by the UK).

We know we are better off in the EU as a partner with others rather than on our own where we are easily picked off by bigger powers. A lesson I fear the UK will learn sooner or later.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
...but like, Britain is just undeniably a European country. It is in Europe. It's a very weird thing to say that you are not European when your country is obviously in Europe. I find it fascinating, this animosity and weird hostility.

Like DJones just said, it's not a matter of whether geographically we're European, it's whether we're culturally European. Mainland Europe has a very unified culture under the EU but Britain has always been an outsider to that culture.

There's nothing unified about individual countries in the EU.

A Pole, a Greek, a Finn and a Portuguese are as different from each other culturally as from a random Brit.

They have their language, their literature, pop music, customs, foods, festivities and everything else that makes up their identity different from each other.

Europe (as in EU) is a vehicle for convenience. There's nothing cultural about it other than hazy buzzwords around "European values" which if you scratch the blue paint on top are very much the same Western democratic values you can find in Australia or the US, with a little Euro flag on top

 Da Boss wrote:
Yodhrin: It's not even "could have been" - Britain was one of the most powerful countries in Europe and had a great position. Other countries really liked you guys.

That is broadly over now, sadly.

Interesting - I guess that could be the lack of coverage/ interest on our behalf but that has never really come across to myself or many others, its always seemed us against the rest for the most part with occassional alliances for poltical reasons.

There's nothing unified about individual countries in the EU.

A Pole, a Greek, a Finn and a Portuguese are as different from each other culturally as from a random Brit.

They have their language, their literature, pop music, customs, foods, festivities and everything else that makes up their identity different from each other.

Europe (as in EU) is a vehicle for convenience. There's nothing cultural about it other than hazy buzzwords around "European values" which if you scratch the blue paint on top are very much the same Western democratic values you can find in Australia or the US, with a little Euro flag on top

I did wonder about that.

jouso wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
...but like, Britain is just undeniably a European country. It is in Europe. It's a very weird thing to say that you are not European when your country is obviously in Europe. I find it fascinating, this animosity and weird hostility.

Like DJones just said, it's not a matter of whether geographically we're European, it's whether we're culturally European. Mainland Europe has a very unified culture under the EU but Britain has always been an outsider to that culture.

There's nothing unified about individual countries in the EU.

A Pole, a Greek, a Finn and a Portuguese are as different from each other culturally as from a random Brit.

They have their language, their literature, pop music, customs, foods, festivities and everything else that makes up their identity different from each other.

Europe (as in EU) is a vehicle for convenience. There's nothing cultural about it other than hazy buzzwords around "European values" which if you scratch the blue paint on top are very much the same Western democratic values you can find in Australia or the US, with a little Euro flag on top

Are poles, Greeks, Finns and Portuguese that enthusiastic about a unified Europe? I know a Greek friend of mine says that they couldn't give a toss about European values, legislations, etc.

mrhappyface wrote:Mainland Europe has a very unified culture under the EU

That's just hilariously uniformed. The EU even regularly gives out money so some regions can restore their own cultural elements that would otherwise not be supported. They also support regional food specialities: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_indications_and_traditional_specialities_in_the_European_Union

The EU is working on unifying regulations so that all those different regions can work together more easily but there's no forced cultural homogenisation. People from the north and south of Germany alone would laugh at your idea of an unified EU culture.