Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If you went first its probably close enough. If you can damage the gallant that much you'll damage a crusader that much which will be far more impacted by the drop to 4+. And being more expensive represents a bigger portion of your army

Then again crusader not being cc dependant is easier to hide out of los/into cover/out of range so it won't suffer 12 damage

IK ranged weapons suck ass for the cost though. A crusader is thoroughly ignorable by most lists.

Ok so then knights are not worth fielding and answer is "none" ;-)

And all those "are knights FLGS friendly" and "where are knight complain threats" are silly waste of time.

tneva82 wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
I think the Gallant would be the best, it is just a stand alone distraction and a HUGE threat if it actually gets in. Also, cheap as hell.

It is also h2h exclusive in an edition where shooting is king...And looking at turn 2+ where it can hope to do damage and even then often doing damage to what OPPONENT wants it to attack rather than what you want.

I honest to goodness don't know what people are talking about when they say this argument. I've played a game almost once a week since the edition came out against a lot of different armies in different point values, and never once have I truly been hurt by screens. Party bus Berzerkers OBLITERATE screens, and get up the board faster than a knight usually. The knight isn't the first wave of attack, if you build your army to be fast.

tneva82 wrote:
Ok so then knights are not worth fielding and answer is "none" ;-)

And all those "are knights FLGS friendly" and "where are knight complain threats" are silly waste of time.

No, because they can do some nasty stuff in melee and combined with their movement, provide a great deal of utility. But the crusader lacks melee versatility, and Questor ranged weapons are very poor, making it the by far the weakest choice, imo.

Martel732 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Ok so then knights are not worth fielding and answer is "none" ;-)

And all those "are knights FLGS friendly" and "where are knight complain threats" are silly waste of time.

No, because they can do some nasty stuff in melee and combined with their movement, provide a great deal of utility. But the crusader lacks melee versatility, and Questor ranged weapons are very poor, making it the by far the weakest choice, imo.

With the release of the small and large knights, I have to agree. The Halverian is better against smaller stuff, and the Dominus class knights are better at handling elites and other heavies, leaving the Crusader and the rest as kind of just b-tier by comparison. However, the Questors are still in my opinion the best for close range/melee.

Watch out, vaklor4, Dakka will lose their collective minds if someone agrees with me.

tneva82 wrote:
Then again crusader not being cc dependant is easier to hide out of los/into cover/out of range so it won't suffer 12 damage

From my experiance its rare that a knight can hide from los or be in cover of course that is board dependent and most shooty armies are capable of matching range with a knight

 vaklor4 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
I think the Gallant would be the best, it is just a stand alone distraction and a HUGE threat if it actually gets in. Also, cheap as hell.

It is also h2h exclusive in an edition where shooting is king...And looking at turn 2+ where it can hope to do damage and even then often doing damage to what OPPONENT wants it to attack rather than what you want.

I honest to goodness don't know what people are talking about when they say this argument. I've played a game almost once a week since the edition came out against a lot of different armies in different point values, and never once have I truly been hurt by screens. Party bus Berzerkers OBLITERATE screens, and get up the board faster than a knight usually. The knight isn't the first wave of attack, if you build your army to be fast.

If your gallant is charging T1 like all the people on knight tactic threads are saying they WILL charge screens. And yes screens will die. That's their job. Good army doesn't have just 1 layer of screens though...You would need to clear 2 layers of screen on turn 1 or your gallant is charging screens on turn 2 as well and on turn 3 games are generally over. Assuming gallant is even alive that long middle of enemy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Ok so then knights are not worth fielding and answer is "none" ;-)

And all those "are knights FLGS friendly" and "where are knight complain threats" are silly waste of time.

No, because they can do some nasty stuff in melee and combined with their movement, provide a great deal of utility. But the crusader lacks melee versatility, and Questor ranged weapons are very poor, making it the by far the weakest choice, imo.

Gallant is too h2h specialized to form core and for rest of questors there's no huge difference in cc ability. Knight's best cc weapon is the stomp anyway.

And if you are looking for h2h units you don't look at knights but more cost effective choices anyway. Knights suck if you are just looking at h2h.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

U02dah4 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Then again crusader not being cc dependant is easier to hide out of los/into cover/out of range so it won't suffer 12 damage

From my experiance its rare that a knight can hide from los or be in cover of course that is board dependent and most shooty armies are capable of matching range with a knight

You don't have any ruins? Toe there behind ruin and you should have. IF you can't do that much you are playing too little terrain.

And plasma guns etc don't equal 36" range. Or assault cannons etc.

Well, I personally hate all the Questor ranged weapons. 100 pts for a leman russ gun? Okay.

 vaklor4 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Ok so then knights are not worth fielding and answer is "none" ;-)

And all those "are knights FLGS friendly" and "where are knight complain threats" are silly waste of time.

No, because they can do some nasty stuff in melee and combined with their movement, provide a great deal of utility. But the crusader lacks melee versatility, and Questor ranged weapons are very poor, making it the by far the weakest choice, imo.

With the release of the small and large knights, I have to agree. The Halverian is better against smaller stuff, and the Dominus class knights are better at handling elites and other heavies, leaving the Crusader and the rest as kind of just b-tier by comparison. However, the Questors are still in my opinion the best for close range/melee.

The helvarin is optimised to kill units that are rarely seen and are easy to lock down in CC. Most units that its high damage is good against are T8. Now if landspeeders ever become fashionable.

The dominous knight might be better but they are also a lot of eggs in one basket sure a single castellan can work but the crusader is 150 pts cheaper and is certainly a valid choice

"The helvarin is optimised to kill units that are rarely seen "

That's the most false statement I've ever seen.

@tneva82

Lots of ruins but to boost your save they have to be big enough that you can have your entire base in and be obscured enough from the firerer.

If you not playing the house rule that makes ground floor LOS blocking and most of the tournaments here arn't then most of the time the knight is to big.

Sometimes its viable buts certainly not reliable




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
"The helvarin is optimised to kill units that are rarely seen "

That's the most false statement I've ever seen.

4d3 S7 AP-1 D3

Most big threats where you need 3 damage are T8 3+

So 8 shots hitting on 3's wounding on 5's 4+ isnt that great

Now against T6 vehicle they are great but with the exception of dragoons im struggling to to think of a T6 vehicle I want to focus and regularly encounter

tneva82 wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
I think the Gallant would be the best, it is just a stand alone distraction and a HUGE threat if it actually gets in. Also, cheap as hell.

It is also h2h exclusive in an edition where shooting is king...And looking at turn 2+ where it can hope to do damage and even then often doing damage to what OPPONENT wants it to attack rather than what you want.

I honest to goodness don't know what people are talking about when they say this argument. I've played a game almost once a week since the edition came out against a lot of different armies in different point values, and never once have I truly been hurt by screens. Party bus Berzerkers OBLITERATE screens, and get up the board faster than a knight usually. The knight isn't the first wave of attack, if you build your army to be fast.

If your gallant is charging T1 like all the people on knight tactic threads are saying they WILL charge screens. And yes screens will die. That's their job. Good army doesn't have just 1 layer of screens though...You would need to clear 2 layers of screen on turn 1 or your gallant is charging screens on turn 2 as well and on turn 3 games are generally over. Assuming gallant is even alive that long middle of enemy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Ok so then knights are not worth fielding and answer is "none" ;-)

And all those "are knights FLGS friendly" and "where are knight complain threats" are silly waste of time.

No, because they can do some nasty stuff in melee and combined with their movement, provide a great deal of utility. But the crusader lacks melee versatility, and Questor ranged weapons are very poor, making it the by far the weakest choice, imo.

Gallant is too h2h specialized to form core and for rest of questors there's no huge difference in cc ability. Knight's best cc weapon is the stomp anyway.

And if you are looking for h2h units you don't look at knights but more cost effective choices anyway. Knights suck if you are just looking at h2h.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

U02dah4 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Then again crusader not being cc dependant is easier to hide out of los/into cover/out of range so it won't suffer 12 damage

From my experiance its rare that a knight can hide from los or be in cover of course that is board dependent and most shooty armies are capable of matching range with a knight

You don't have any ruins? Toe there behind ruin and you should have. IF you can't do that much you are playing too little terrain.

And plasma guns etc don't equal 36" range. Or assault cannons etc.

They aren't charging turn 1, I literally just said they werent the first going in Berzerkers can also go through two layers of screen if they are close enough, thanks to the multiple fight phases.Plus, my knight is Renegade anyways, so he isnt getting the same special fun. He gets his own fun.

U02dah4 wrote:
@tneva82

Lots of ruins but to boost your save they have to be big enough that you can have your entire base in and be obscured enough from the firerer.

If you not playing the house rule that makes ground floor LOS blocking and most of the tournaments here arn't then most of the time the knight is to big.

Sometimes its viable buts certainly not reliable




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
"The helvarin is optimised to kill units that are rarely seen "

That's the most false statement I've ever seen.

4d3 S7 AP-1 D3

Most big threats where you need 3 damage are T8 3+

So 8 shots hitting on 3's wounding on 5's 4+ isnt that great

Now against T6 vehicle they are great but with the exception of dragoons im struggling to to think of a T6 vehicle I want to focus and regularly encounter

All of codex Drukahri.

T8 is mostly an imperium thing.

Xenos usually roll T7 and invulns. Against which, autocannons are fantastic.

Even if the Gallant or any Knight runs into a screen, they can just stomp on them and then fall back forwards towards their real target next turn since they can move over infantry and swarms when they fall back. Unless you're That Guy bringing 240 cultists as a screen in which case nothing in the game really has a great answer for that anyway.

I don't need 240 to make a two-layer wall you can't fall back past. Some quick measuring and taking the base into account hoses them.

The other thing about screens is that if they last through the turn the knights charge them then the knight is open to being charged with no overwatch during the opponents turn.

This won't always be an issue, but it's something to keep in mind before getting locked up against some armies with some knights.

What Knight would people recommend if one were to expect a lot of Custodes Bikes?

My initial thought is a Castellan with the relic Plasma. It has the range to avoid being charged for a while (which is the main threat) while having the shooting to seriously threaten the bikes.

Would something else work better?

Right now as a single knight the castellen is the go too. I can't work out if it's undercosted or just easier to use or if GW was a little conservative on the price cuts to normal knights as the castellen brings a lot of firepower and durability to the table for it's points especially compaired to crusaders etc. Though I do suspect questorus class are probably still over paying for ranged weapons.

 Ordana wrote:
What Knight would people recommend if one were to expect a lot of Custodes Bikes?

My initial thought is a Castellan with the relic Plasma. It has the range to avoid being charged for a while (which is the main threat) while having the shooting to seriously threaten the bikes.

Would something else work better?

If you specifically want to fight Custodes bikers then a Hawkshroud Valiant is pretty great. It'll be hard for them to charge anyone without taking a hit from your flamer.

That said, Cawl's Wrath and a Volcano Lance are great against Custodes - and most things. In a TAC army I'd always recommend the Castellan.

Styrix

Castellan is the best knight, hands down. With Cawl's Wrath it is just a bit silly. I actually expect it to be tweaked in the future.
Then Helverins.
Then Gallant.

Depends on what your army is.

Go big or go home.

Buy, build, paint, and use a Porphyrion. Then stack all the defensive buffs onto it.

:-)

 grouchoben wrote:
Castellan is the best knight, hands down. With Cawl's Wrath it is just a bit silly. I actually expect it to be tweaked in the future.
Then Helverins.
Then Gallant.

Castellan is a tool for killing T8 its great for hunting big targets.
However thats all it does and at a cost of 30% of your army its a huge investment. Sure one game its great but it is against an infantry army you have a white elephant.personally i hole my opponent brings a castellan every game as I know im getting an easy win.

The crusader performs a similar role cheaper with more targetting flexibility and better CC at the cost of being less effective vs t8.

Helvarins a tool specilised to kill rhinos and landspeeders. Sure they are great vs eldar but there are lot of games where there shooting isn't that effective. 8 shots 3+ 5+ AP1 will miss a lot vs T8 sure you can argue thats only vs imperium and chaos but they represent a huge chunk of the field

The gallant is weak T1 because it has to get close but much like the carnifex of old it is scarey cheap people know it will hit hard so its value is as much in its distraction it provides as its damage output

Martel732 wrote:
Oh, I reread it. I thought ALL characters could be ignored to shoot other characters. Okay, so there's no reason not to make the IK a character I guess. It never really came up for me until now. Basically, characters too fat to benefit from <character> can't be ignored themselves. Seems fair.

The enemy can get a mission to kill a character. Some abilities like emperror's champion re-roll to wound and to hit vs characters can work against you. Others like orbital bombardment get -1 vs characters. So, it's a mixed bag.

 Ordana wrote:
What Knight would people recommend if one were to expect a lot of Custodes Bikes?

My initial thought is a Castellan with the relic Plasma. It has the range to avoid being charged for a while (which is the main threat) while having the shooting to seriously threaten the bikes.

Would something else work better?

Crusader with RFBC and avenger gatling. All your attacks are AP -2 and multi damage, which is very cost efficient against Custodes, which includes your feet. The gatling does 2 damage, which is exactly half a Custodes bike, so you aren't wasting wounds either. And if you start the round against an injured bike, shoot the RFBC first to try killing him without wasting wounds.

Crusader or warden