Why assault was too powerful in 3rd, and how it can be balanced in 8.5

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**SHUPPET**

How is being resilient breaking assault?

**nurgle5**

Karol wrote:
yeah, but it seems like that the "good" assault units just ignore the core rules of assault. Jetbikes, custodes, demon princes, BA captins etc they all have some rule that breaks stufff, ignore overwatch, 30" assault range, super resilient, charging stuff durning opponent turn etc. On the flip side something like a melee termintors or GK strike dude is slow, has few attacks, has to pay high cost for melee weapons, but dies before he can use them etc.

I'm not sure how being super resilient is ignoring the core rules of assault, can you explain a bit further?

tneva82 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Orks don't currently care about transports because their transports are overpriced. So they just...never bring any unit that would benefit from a fairly priced transport.

Another issue is that 12 orks just aren't much of a threat. Many targets will cripple that in overwatch. And then you don't make much of a dent when you hit. And get killed easily. And don't get +1A. Oh and your LD sucks. In short even if trukk was 20 pts not sure would trukk boyz be all that viable...So trukks would be good for tank bustas(shooting) and maybe like mega nobz and nobz if they were worth fielding.

Ork boyz don't seem to benefit from trukks at all atm though it'd be swell if they could consolidate back into the trukks, like Speed Freaks could back in the day!

I do want to second that comment on tank bustas, IIRC the guy who won the UK GT ran two units of them in trukks, and not that I think this is a good thing, but there is at least one unit that seems to benefit from trukks at a competitive level.

**Morkphoiz**

phydaux wrote:
auticus wrote:
The other thing that went hand in hand with busted in 3rd edition were the assault units that were decked out in power weapons.

I watched a game at the Chicago GT in 1999 where it was Blood Angels vs Imperial Guard and the Blood Angels player TABLED the IG player in turn 1, and the IG player hadn't even moved yet.

Gross.

Part of that was when 3rd first dropped if you wiped out a unit in assault then you could make a 3" consolidation move, and if that move brought you into another enemy unit then you got locked in close combat with THAT unit.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

DoomMouse wrote:
Maybe a few entire assault armies are poor, but some of the game's best units are assault oriented. Custodes Jetbikes are great in assault, as are blood angels smash captains. The knight gallant is also looking pretty hot too.

Orks are really quite strong as well when you build around nothing but Boyz, stormboyz and supporting characters (though their other units are over costed)

Tyranid genestealers and Khorne berserkers are also considered decently strong with the right support

I think the assault mechanics are fine and very powerful, you just need to lower the points costs of certain garbage assault units (looking at you assault marines)

Orks & 'Nids are horde armies, Custodes Jetbikes are Codex Creep, and Smash Captains & Berzerkers are single units limited by the Rule of 3.

People whine about Gunlines and how boring it is to play against them, but GW has written the current rules, intentionally in my opinion, so that elite assault armies are hamstrung and gunlines are the MOST viable play style.

I have a stack of unpainted Space Marines box sets that are waiting for the Space Wolves codex oto drop, and when it does I'm 99% sure I'm just gonna spray paint them blue and make a vanilla Marines gunline because that's how GW WANTS me to play.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
or, I have an alternative idea: how about we DONT do that. Elite assault is honestly pretty awesome right now (especially fast elite assault, but you also have grotesque+talos lists solidly in the meta) this change would allow for straight ludicrous threat ranges for practically all assault units because of how fast transports have become.

cheap chaff assault is fine in 8th, as is super elite fast assault. What suffers is rank-and-file midrange assault units like assault marines, non-boy orks, basic termies etc becaus eof their inability to massively murderize over their weight class or aren't cheap enough to just tie stuff up.

Please give examples of the various armies that can pull this off. If your answer is just one unit from one army then all you're doing is proving my point.

Back in 3rd Ed vanilla Maines, vanilla Chaos and Blood Angels were all able to pull off assault OR gunline depending on the preferences of the player. And Space Wolves & cult Chaos Marines were top notch assault specialists (because you could play a pure Khorne army then). Now, skipping Space Wolves, none of those armies can pull off assault orientation. We'll see about Space Wolves in a month.

The simple fact is that the pendulam has swung, it has swung too far in one direction, and it needs to start swing back.

It seems you're just another salty marine player. Calling codex creep on custodes? Well, one of the first codizes (imperial guard) is still the most powerful codex to date. Also Chaos Marines are totally able to field a pure Khorne army and guess what: That causes Berzerkers to be troops which are not affected at all by the rule of three. So that point is invalid too.
Tyranid big bug lists are able to hold their own in cc, khorne berzerker armys just murder everything they touch, blood angels are VERY able to mix and match shooting and cc while having one of the most ridicoulus melee characters in the game.
Harlequins are VERY dangerous in close combat too.
Also lets not forget about knights. Those things are truly terrifying in close combat. All of them.
Of course theres a hard counter to every army but thats just how the game works. If your only Argument is "elite assault armys suck because marines suck in cc" I cannot take you seriously.

**Martel732**

Marines do suck in cc, even ba.

**Mr Morden**

Martel732 wrote:
Marines do suck in cc, even ba.

They do compared to dedicated Assault troops.

**Kap'n Krump**

In my opinion, as long as the fall back mechanic remains unchanged, melee is going to continue to be an absolute joke.

I get why fall back exists, with the advent of charging after deep strike, but the fact that it's automatic, unchallenged, and often times happens without penalty (or a trifling one), means that melee armies are more or less useless.

And when you factor in the fact that twin-linked now just doubles shots, but damn near every shooting army still has abundant rerolls to hit, melee armies now get to face double the shots, who keep rerolls, and now can escape melee at will.

If fall back was based on, say, a dice roll + your move value, it would be more fair. But, in my experience, fall back is the most broken mechanic I've seen in 40k thus far. And I've been playing since 5th.

The ONE thing that might make the ork codex not suck is a dirt-cheap stratagem that disallows enemies from falling back.

**sfshilo**

phydaux wrote:
....where in 8th ed elite assault armies are completely unviable.

Yeah that's not true, people just don't know how to run them. Shooting phase is easier to play.

Too many people just don't know the rules for assault is the biggest issue. They let opponents just walk thru their models falling back (you can't do that), they don't setup their charges to soak up as much overwatch as possible (declare charges on as much as you can in case you roll that 10-12 2d6), and they think the turn 1 nerf hurt assault armies (it didn't, it actually helped.)

**the_scotsman**

sfshilo wrote:
phydaux wrote:
....where in 8th ed elite assault armies are completely unviable.

Yeah that's not true, people just don't know how to run them. Shooting phase is easier to play.

Too many people just don't know the rules for assault is the biggest issue. They let opponents just walk thru their models falling back (you can't do that), they don't setup their charges to soak up as much overwatch as possible (declare charges on as much as you can in case you roll that 10-12 2d6), and they think the turn 1 nerf hurt assault armies (it didn't, it actually helped.)

they also evidently pull crap like we saw in the current Cry About Marines thread where they decide that rhinos don't block LOS for some reason (I guess you can see between the tiny nubbinz in the treads when you have it down flat on the table?)

At least on the internet, there seems to be a dedicated community of people whose hobby it is to play 40k with the most asinine, legalistic interpretation of the rules possible in order to prove a point that the rules suck and everything sucks and everyone should just stop playing games and having fun and do what all the cool kids are doing, which is not play and whine about the game on the online (which they totally do because they're cool, and not because no human being can stand interacting with them thanks to the way they decided to play the game.)

between people catching snippets of that attitude online and taking those folks' word as gospel (they must be right, because they said the thing the most times and the loudest!) and not knowing how half the rules work themselves, you see a lot of fatalism regarding any aspect of the game that tends to be more complicated.

**Martel732**

sfshilo wrote:
phydaux wrote:
....where in 8th ed elite assault armies are completely unviable.

Yeah that's not true, people just don't know how to run them. Shooting phase is easier to play.

Too many people just don't know the rules for assault is the biggest issue. They let opponents just walk thru their models falling back (you can't do that), they don't setup their charges to soak up as much overwatch as possible (declare charges on as much as you can in case you roll that 10-12 2d6), and they think the turn 1 nerf hurt assault armies (it didn't, it actually helped.)

Pretty sure i know how to run them. I'm just out of dudes turn 4.

**Brutallica**

sfshilo wrote:
phydaux wrote:
....where in 8th ed elite assault armies are completely unviable.

Yeah that's not true, people just don't know how to run them. Shooting phase is easier to play.

Too many people just don't know the rules for assault is the biggest issue. They let opponents just walk thru their models falling back (you can't do that), they don't setup their charges to soak up as much overwatch as possible (declare charges on as much as you can in case you roll that 10-12 2d6), and they think the turn 1 nerf hurt assault armies (it didn't, it actually helped.)

Hahahaha, people dont know how to run them... Assault have never had it this gakky since 5th

**Daedalus81**

Drop the price of land raiders, give them assault ramps, and hand out some minor point drops (assault marines/terminators).

**Spoletta**

Brutallica wrote:
sfshilo wrote:
phydaux wrote:
....where in 8th ed elite assault armies are completely unviable.

Yeah that's not true, people just don't know how to run them. Shooting phase is easier to play.

Too many people just don't know the rules for assault is the biggest issue. They let opponents just walk thru their models falling back (you can't do that), they don't setup their charges to soak up as much overwatch as possible (declare charges on as much as you can in case you roll that 10-12 2d6), and they think the turn 1 nerf hurt assault armies (it didn't, it actually helped.)

Hahahaha, people dont know how to run them... Assault have never had it this gakky since 5th

As long as you don't count 6th and 7h. Assault now actually works outside deathstars, you have competitive assault armies that don't rely on cute tricks. I don't remember this happening in previous editions.

Assault represents 50% of the game right now? No, more likely 30%.

Should be 50%? I'm not sure, shooting and melee should not be equally represented just because they both exist. AoS is more focused on assault than on shooting, and one complains.
30% still makes it a necessary and core part of the game.
Sure, you could do something for the elite assault elements, which are not working right now, and raise this share to 40%, but this is without a doubt the best state assault has been in for the last 4 editions.

**Brutallica**

Spoletta wrote:
Brutallica wrote:
sfshilo wrote:
phydaux wrote:
....where in 8th ed elite assault armies are completely unviable.

Yeah that's not true, people just don't know how to run them. Shooting phase is easier to play.

Too many people just don't know the rules for assault is the biggest issue. They let opponents just walk thru their models falling back (you can't do that), they don't setup their charges to soak up as much overwatch as possible (declare charges on as much as you can in case you roll that 10-12 2d6), and they think the turn 1 nerf hurt assault armies (it didn't, it actually helped.)

Hahahaha, people dont know how to run them... Assault have never had it this gakky since 5th

As long as you don't count 6th and 7h. Assault now actually works outside deathstars, you have competitive assault armies that don't rely on cute tricks. I don't remember this happening in previous editions.

Assault represents 50% of the game right now? No, more likely 30%.

Should be 50%? I'm not sure, shooting and melee should not be equally represented just because they both exist. AoS is more focused on assault than on shooting, and one complains.
30% still makes it a necessary and core part of the game.
Sure, you could do something for the elite assault elements, which are not working right now, and raise this share to 40%, but this is without a doubt the best state assault has been in for the last 4 editions.

In a casual enviroment maybe.

But as a space wolf, ive never had it worse than 8th edition, everyone leaves combat shoots everything to pieces. Its way too easy for ranged to screen with junk, leave combat with said junk and shoot all the dangerous models away.

And yes im against IG and TAU mainly, i faced against them in 7th, it was hard with riptide formations and the like, but i actually managed to win games, now the game is over at turn 2 or 3. And our White Scars player are suffering them same issues.

**LunarSol**

Spoletta wrote:

Assault represents 50% of the game right now? No, more likely 30%.

Should be 50%? I'm not sure, shooting and melee should not be equally represented just because they both exist. AoS is more focused on assault than on shooting, and one complains.
30% still makes it a necessary and core part of the game.
Sure, you could do something for the elite assault elements, which are not working right now, and raise this share to 40%, but this is without a doubt the best state assault has been in for the last 4 editions.

Realistically there's only 3-4 factions that can support assault as a primary gameplan. That's like.... 10% of the total armies? Granted, I believe in souping the game down to a more realistic 7-10 factions, so 30% is probably about right.

**Spoletta**

Indeed there are 3-4 assault factions, but if you count pure shooting competitive factions there aren't many more.

The meta right now requires you to mix melee threaths and shooting threats or you are toast against many matchups, hence the souping.

Maybe only T'au lists don't use any assault specialists, and if they could ally in some they would gladly do that.

We are no longer in an edition where you can use terms like assault armies, or shooting armies. Everything works in a scale of grey now, because mixing those elements works better than focusing on one. In particular the meta right now likes fast and powerfull melee supported by long range shooting.

**SemperMortis**

nurgle5 wrote:

Ork boyz don't seem to benefit from trukks at all atm though it'd be swell if they could consolidate back into the trukks, like Speed Freaks could back in the day!

I do want to second that comment on tank bustas, IIRC the guy who won the UK GT ran two units of them in trukks, and not that I think this is a good thing, but there is at least one unit that seems to benefit from trukks at a competitive level.

No, that guy won the GT because he was slow playing like crazy, I don't believe any of his games went past turn 3. Tank bustas don't benefit from Trukkz at a competitive level, they REQUIRE trukkz to be taken.....at all, and even then it gives your opponents heavy weapons a nice juicy target to focus fire on turn 1.

sfshilo wrote:
phydaux wrote:
....where in 8th ed elite assault armies are completely unviable.

Yeah that's not true, people just don't know how to run them. Shooting phase is easier to play.

Too many people just don't know the rules for assault is the biggest issue. They let opponents just walk thru their models falling back (you can't do that), they don't setup their charges to soak up as much overwatch as possible (declare charges on as much as you can in case you roll that 10-12 2d6), and they think the turn 1 nerf hurt assault armies (it didn't, it actually helped.)

\

Sorry but the L2P argument isn't really valid here. You are saying that players who have been in the game for decades, on the tournament scene for years aren't smart enough to make assault armies work. Yeah, not right. I am well aware of the rules for assault, I know all those little tactics to ensure I don't get blasted off the board, I know how to best position my units to utilize cover and concealment to the max. I still get blasted off the board by turn 3 or 4 by Tau, Eldar and Marine players if they bring anti infantry weapons. Hell the Tau Onion of death can pretty reliably defeat any CC army with little effort or skill involved.

But mostly I really want you to explain this.

and they think the turn 1 nerf hurt assault armies (it didn't, it actually helped.)

How did making me wait 1 more turn to assault my enemies and face an entire new shooting phase benefit my CC army? please do explain.

**meleti**

@SemperMortis: what's your assault army? Perhaps the problem is with your list, instead of with all assault armies in 40k.

**SemperMortis**

meleti wrote:
@SemperMortis: what's your assault army? Perhaps the problem is with your list, instead of with all assault armies in 40k.

So ignore all my points and rush back to "maybe you need to L2P" awesome. My army is Orkz, and let me guess, i should wait for my codex to drop right? That worked so well in 6th and 7th....

**meleti**

SemperMortis wrote:
meleti wrote:
@SemperMortis: what's your assault army? Perhaps the problem is with your list, instead of with all assault armies in 40k.
So ignore all my points and rush back to "maybe you need to L2P" awesome. My army is Orkz, and let me guess, i should wait for my codex to drop right? That worked so well in 6th and 7th....

No, it just helps to know what you're working with. If you were playing BT, for example, I don't think there's many ways to get them working as a viable assault army. BT are kind of dead in the water as an assault army right now.

I don't think Orks are, though. Even pre-codex, you can run something like 120-180 Boyz, Weirdboyz, Big Meks, Kustom Mega Kannons, etc., and you'll have a tournament contender list. There was a 4-1 Orks player at the Dallas Open GT who I believe was undefeated going into the final round. And there's been multiple other Orks players having success with that list, not just the guy who won the Warhammer World 40k GT. Orks don't have a lot of room for variety right now (Stormboyz I guess) but that's pretty typical of index armies. No need to wait for your codex, though, there's a list that works right now and you definitely don't need to rely on slowplay to have success with it.

**nurgle5**

SemperMortis wrote:
nurgle5 wrote:

Ork boyz don't seem to benefit from trukks at all atm though it'd be swell if they could consolidate back into the trukks, like Speed Freaks could back in the day!

I do want to second that comment on tank bustas, IIRC the guy who won the UK GT ran two units of them in trukks, and not that I think this is a good thing, but there is at least one unit that seems to benefit from trukks at a competitive level.

No, that guy won the GT because he was slow playing like crazy, I don't believe any of his games went past turn 3. Tank bustas don't benefit from Trukkz at a competitive level, they REQUIRE trukkz to be taken.....at all, and even then it gives your opponents heavy weapons a nice juicy target to focus fire on turn 1.

I'm confused by the first half of your reply, I didn't say the chap won because he had tankbustas in trukks -- just that he had them. I mentioned it because it was an example of someone using trukks at a tournament, in response to a comment chain about Orks never taking units that benefit from trukks. I was actually making a similar point to you, that it seems that trukks can be useful at a competitive level.

**Karol**

I'm not sure how being super resilient is ignoring the core rules of assault, can you explain a bit further?

Because it makes normal assault units worthless. If the "normal" for an assault unit means 30"+ range on top of crazy stratagems, or being something like Magnus or Tyfus along side 3-4 other flying buddies, then an actual normal assault unit like GK strikes or SW termintors, makes no sense.

**SHUPPET**

I didn't ask about assault range - you said being resilient enough to make it assault is breaking the rules of assault. I don't get it. That just seems asinine, that's not a rule of assault lol

**Just Tony**

ValentineGames wrote:
3rd was a debacle?...most fun I ever had was in 3rd.

I'm lucky, I have a gaming group that still plays 3rd.

I'm actually baffled at how many people saw turn 1 tablings in 3rd. How was that even possible outside of BA in a Cleanse mission with everyone exactly 18" away? The biggest bitch I see about 3rd was consolidation into combat, and that was mitigated by keeping your squads at least 6" apart. Can you imagine a hard counter that costs no points? Unless, of course, you had people trying to consolidate 2D6" after a Wiped Out result, which was completely against the rules.

**Dandelion**

Spoletta wrote:

Maybe only T'au lists don't use any assault specialists, and if they could ally in some they would gladly do that.

Tau just need expanded kroot options and they're good to go. Which I think solves the issue of every faction at least having access (of some sort) to both melee and shooting.

**Delvarus Centurion**

phydaux wrote:
GW has been actively trying to live down the debacle that was 3rd ed. for neatly 20 years now. Each edition they have nerfed elite assault armies a little more and a little more, to the point where in 8th ed elite assault armies are completely unviable.

3rd had two features that made assault very powerful - Charging out of transports after they had moved, and units getting locked in close combat once they had been assaulted. Both of these features are absent in 8th ed.

I propose that we allow infantry units to debark from transports after they have moved, and that we left them EITHER Shoot OR Charge when they have done so. This will provide some benefit to elite assault armies, but not an overwhelming one. Gunlines will still have Overwatch, Heroic Intervention, and Fall Back as options to stop elite assault units from rolling them up like an old throw rug.

Its because everyone at GW play Eldar, Tau or Necrons lol

**hollow one**

meleti wrote:
Here's some ideas for assault armies assuming OP is genuinely interested in playing assault armies instead of just whining about how bad they are.

1. Catachan brigade (~100 infantry) with Bullgryns.

2. Ork Boyz and Stormboyz. They're only going to improve with a codex.

3. BA with either DC or SG as a big hammer unit, supported by characters.

4. Custodes. Basically the entire army is an assault army. Dawneagle jetbikes are the strongest way to build it, but don't sleep on Allarus either.

5. Tyranids, in a wide number of varieties. Genestealers for a fast assault unit, Tyranid Warriors as more of a balanced shooting/assault threat, monsters spam, etc.

6. Harlequins, the entire army is lightning fast and strong in combat. Not that they can't shoot, either.

7. Thousand Sons. Daemon Princes, Magnus, Tzaangors, and Cultists. Good mix of strong elite assault units and big tarpits.

8. Nurgle daemons. A resilient, assault-focused army that's great at holding objectives.

9. Drukhari Wych cults. Shardnets are extremely powerful, letting you trap units in combat without having to surround them first.

10. Imperial Knights. Gallants, Death Grip, first turn charges, fighting twice.

There is too much sanity and meta knowledge in this post for it to be ignored. So i'm just going to highlight it again.

**Delvarus Centurion**

hollow one wrote:
meleti wrote:
Here's some ideas for assault armies assuming OP is genuinely interested in playing assault armies instead of just whining about how bad they are.

1. Catachan brigade (~100 infantry) with Bullgryns.

2. Ork Boyz and Stormboyz. They're only going to improve with a codex.

3. BA with either DC or SG as a big hammer unit, supported by characters.

4. Custodes. Basically the entire army is an assault army. Dawneagle jetbikes are the strongest way to build it, but don't sleep on Allarus either.

5. Tyranids, in a wide number of varieties. Genestealers for a fast assault unit, Tyranid Warriors as more of a balanced shooting/assault threat, monsters spam, etc.

6. Harlequins, the entire army is lightning fast and strong in combat. Not that they can't shoot, either.

7. Thousand Sons. Daemon Princes, Magnus, Tzaangors, and Cultists. Good mix of strong elite assault units and big tarpits.

8. Nurgle daemons. A resilient, assault-focused army that's great at holding objectives.

9. Drukhari Wych cults. Shardnets are extremely powerful, letting you trap units in combat without having to surround them first.

10. Imperial Knights. Gallants, Death Grip, first turn charges, fighting twice.
There is too much sanity and meta knowledge in this post for it to be ignored. So i'm just going to highlight it again.

You can't sleep on any Custodes unit, most armies would love to have 1 unit as good as just the Custodes guardians lol Its just we can't get them into CC without sinking most of our points on a land raider.

**Not Online!!!**

Actually; Does Guard even have Assult units?
I mean there are Ogryns but compared to other melee troops they are somewhere inbetween meh and ok.
On the otherside note, why not squeeze 2 or 3 units in a chimera.
That way you can maximize fireoutput and still have a decent enough APC / Tank standing around.
Also are Valkyries really that overcosted?

**Delvarus Centurion**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Actually; Does Guard even have Assult units?
I mean there are Ogryns but compared to other melee troops they are somewhere inbetween meh and ok.
On the otherside note, why not squeeze 2 or 3 units in a chimera.
That way you can maximize fireoutput and still have a decent enough APC / Tank standing around.
Also are Valkyries really that overcosted?

Deathshourds, foetid bloat drone with fleshmower and poxwalkers the rest are all CSM/Daemon units. Whoops I thought you meant death guard, should have read the rest of your comment lol

**Not Online!!!**

Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Actually; Does Guard even have Assult units?
I mean there are Ogryns but compared to other melee troops they are somewhere inbetween meh and ok.
On the otherside note, why not squeeze 2 or 3 units in a chimera.
That way you can maximize fireoutput and still have a decent enough APC / Tank standing around.
Also are Valkyries really that overcosted?

Deathshourds, foetid bloat drone with fleshmower and poxwalkers the rest are all CSM/Daemon units. Whoops I thought you meant death guard, should have read the rest of your comment lol

Imperial Guard, now are you insinuating that i am a heretic and have acess to such things?
HOW DARE YOU:

Ps: greet papa for me will you^^