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GW has been actively trying to live down the debacle that was 3rd ed. for neatly 20 years now. Each edition they have nerfed elite assault armies a little more and a little more, to the point where in 8th ed elite assault armies are completely unviable.

3rd had two features that made assault very powerful - Charging out of transports after they had moved, and units getting locked in close combat once they had been assaulted. Both of these features are absent in 8th ed.

I propose that we allow infantry units to debark from transports after they have moved, and that we left them EITHER Shoot OR Charge when they have done so. This will provide some benefit to elite assault armies, but not an overwhelming one. Gunlines will still have Overwatch, Heroic Intervention, and Fall Back as options to stop elite assault units from rolling them up like an old throw rug.

Maybe a few entire assault armies are poor, but some of the game's best units are assault oriented. Custodes Jetbikes are great in assault, as are blood angels smash captains. The knight gallant is also looking pretty hot too.

Orks are really quite strong as well when you build around nothing but Boyz, stormboyz and supporting characters (though their other units are over costed)

Tyranid genestealers and Khorne berserkers are also considered decently strong with the right support

I think the assault mechanics are fine and very powerful, you just need to lower the points costs of certain garbage assault units (looking at you assault marines)

The other thing that went hand in hand with busted in 3rd edition were the assault units that were decked out in power weapons.

I watched a game at the Chicago GT in 1999 where it was Blood Angels vs Imperial Guard and the Blood Angels player TABLED the IG player in turn 1, and the IG player hadn't even moved yet.

Gross.

I think 4th finally got rid of the turn 1 tablings.

Yeah, in 4th-7th, Assault had been really nerfed, but I think 8th has hit a sweet spot. Pure assault armies have a real place, even if that's minimal, and in other armies assault has a purpose, even if it can't win the game on its own. In most other editions, assault could completely turn off some armies, and so it was too simple of a question "can I make it into close combat or no?", which resulted in few real tactics or strategy. Now, in 8th, you can get into close combat and still lose, but if you use proper tactics, you can mitigate some of the easy walking away from combat, and if you use proper strategy, then the assault is only one part of your plan.

I really enjoy close combat in 8th, more so than in any previous edition, including 3rd. I really feel that 8th has the best system they've ever had. Would like some better execution of that system, sure, but the basics are fantastic.

or, I have an alternative idea: how about we DONT do that. Elite assault is honestly pretty awesome right now (especially fast elite assault, but you also have grotesque+talos lists solidly in the meta) this change would allow for straight ludicrous threat ranges for practically all assault units because of how fast transports have become.

cheap chaff assault is fine in 8th, as is super elite fast assault. What suffers is rank-and-file midrange assault units like assault marines, non-boy orks, basic termies etc becaus eof their inability to massively murderize over their weight class or aren't cheap enough to just tie stuff up.

auticus wrote:
The other thing that went hand in hand with busted in 3rd edition were the assault units that were decked out in power weapons.

I watched a game at the Chicago GT in 1999 where it was Blood Angels vs Imperial Guard and the Blood Angels player TABLED the IG player in turn 1, and the IG player hadn't even moved yet.

Gross.

Part of that was when 3rd first dropped if you wiped out a unit in assault then you could make a 3" consolidation move, and if that move brought you into another enemy unit then you got locked in close combat with THAT unit.


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 DoomMouse wrote:
Maybe a few entire assault armies are poor, but some of the game's best units are assault oriented. Custodes Jetbikes are great in assault, as are blood angels smash captains. The knight gallant is also looking pretty hot too.

Orks are really quite strong as well when you build around nothing but Boyz, stormboyz and supporting characters (though their other units are over costed)

Tyranid genestealers and Khorne berserkers are also considered decently strong with the right support

I think the assault mechanics are fine and very powerful, you just need to lower the points costs of certain garbage assault units (looking at you assault marines)

Orks & 'Nids are horde armies, Custodes Jetbikes are Codex Creep, and Smash Captains & Berzerkers are single units limited by the Rule of 3.

People whine about Gunlines and how boring it is to play against them, but GW has written the current rules, intentionally in my opinion, so that elite assault armies are hamstrung and gunlines are the MOST viable play style.

I have a stack of unpainted Space Marines box sets that are waiting for the Space Wolves codex oto drop, and when it does I'm 99% sure I'm just gonna spray paint them blue and make a vanilla Marines gunline because that's how GW WANTS me to play.


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the_scotsman wrote:
or, I have an alternative idea: how about we DONT do that. Elite assault is honestly pretty awesome right now (especially fast elite assault, but you also have grotesque+talos lists solidly in the meta) this change would allow for straight ludicrous threat ranges for practically all assault units because of how fast transports have become.

cheap chaff assault is fine in 8th, as is super elite fast assault. What suffers is rank-and-file midrange assault units like assault marines, non-boy orks, basic termies etc becaus eof their inability to massively murderize over their weight class or aren't cheap enough to just tie stuff up.

Please give examples of the various armies that can pull this off. If your answer is just one unit from one army then all you're doing is proving my point.

Back in 3rd Ed vanilla Maines, vanilla Chaos and Blood Angels were all able to pull off assault OR gunline depending on the preferences of the player. And Space Wolves & cult Chaos Marines were top notch assault specialists (because you could play a pure Khorne army then). Now, skipping Space Wolves, none of those armies can pull off assault orientation. We'll see about Space Wolves in a month.

The simple fact is that the pendulam has swung, it has swung too far in one direction, and it needs to start swing back.

I think that select transports could probably allow assault. Land raiders, mainly. They cost enough so they and the unit inside then deserves to be scary.

It would probably be unenjoyable if rhinos or DE transports could do it, and would be similar to the old deepstrike rules with first turn charges becoming much more common, and making the threat range of an assault unit fairly massive.

I think disembarking and shooting would be okay, though, like you could in 5th.


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I also think that most basic units, especially Marines and any other unit that was supposed to be good but not great at close combat, need 2 attacks base. They got hurt quite a bit by losing the +1 attack on the charge.

If the full movement of a transport before disembarking and assaulting is too much couldn't it be limited to half?
With maybe some exceptions for vehicles that are designed to launch quick assaults (Land raiders/Ork Trukks/Dark Eldar Raiders etc)

Perhaps even if the unit only gets to disembark up to a certain amount from the vehicle (lets say 3" for argument's sake) and not move themselves after doing so, other than to run/charge.

Assault is stronger than it has been since I started playing the game. With the exclusion of ridiculous Deathstars in 6th, but I think that's a different archetype. OP you do not understand the game well enough to be making threads like this. Play more and level yourself up. That's all there is to it.


Signed, a player who mains close combat armies.


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Wow some OP's responses. This is the worst thread I've seen on here in a while.

Don't validate it by debating him, he's been here 8 years, he knows what he's doing.

Here's some ideas for assault armies assuming OP is genuinely interested in playing assault armies instead of just whining about how bad they are.

1. Catachan brigade (~100 infantry) with Bullgryns.

2. Ork Boyz and Stormboyz. They're only going to improve with a codex.

3. BA with either DC or SG as a big hammer unit, supported by characters.

4. Custodes. Basically the entire army is an assault army. Dawneagle jetbikes are the strongest way to build it, but don't sleep on Allarus either.

5. Tyranids, in a wide number of varieties. Genestealers for a fast assault unit, Tyranid Warriors as more of a balanced shooting/assault threat, monsters spam, etc.

6. Harlequins, the entire army is lightning fast and strong in combat. Not that they can't shoot, either.

7. Thousand Sons. Daemon Princes, Magnus, Tzaangors, and Cultists. Good mix of strong elite assault units and big tarpits.

8. Nurgle daemons. A resilient, assault-focused army that's great at holding objectives.

9. Drukhari Wych cults. Shardnets are extremely powerful, letting you trap units in combat without having to surround them first.

10. Imperial Knights. Gallants, Death Grip, first turn charges, fighting twice.

auticus wrote:
The other thing that went hand in hand with busted in 3rd edition were the assault units that were decked out in power weapons.

I watched a game at the Chicago GT in 1999 where it was Blood Angels vs Imperial Guard and the Blood Angels player TABLED the IG player in turn 1, and the IG player hadn't even moved yet.

Gross.

You know else is gross?

That the game isn't more balanced this time around - the pendulum has just swung to the other side.

IG can table BA (and other melee armies) turn 1.


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meleti wrote:
Here's some ideas for assault armies assuming OP is genuinely interested in playing assault armies instead of just whining about how bad they are.

1. Catachan brigade (~100 infantry) with Bullgryns.

2. Ork Boyz and Stormboyz. They're only going to improve with a codex.

3. BA with either DC or SG as a big hammer unit, supported by characters.

4. Custodes. Basically the entire army is an assault army. Dawneagle jetbikes are the strongest way to build it, but don't sleep on Allarus either.

5. Tyranids, in a wide number of varieties. Genestealers for a fast assault unit, Tyranid Warriors as more of a balanced shooting/assault threat, monsters spam, etc.

6. Harlequins, the entire army is lightning fast and strong in combat. Not that they can't shoot, either.

7. Thousand Sons. Daemon Princes, Magnus, Tzaangors, and Cultists. Good mix of strong elite assault units and big tarpits.

8. Nurgle daemons. A resilient, assault-focused army that's great at holding objectives.

9. Drukhari Wych cults. Shardnets are extremely powerful, letting you trap units in combat without having to surround them first.

10. Imperial Knights. Gallants, Death Grip, first turn charges, fighting twice.

Most of these armies are hardcountered by bringing adequate anti-infantry firepower; which itself is countered by bringing adequate armored units; which itself is countered by bringing adequate anti-armor firepower.

Welcome to the new game, it's rock-paper-scissors all the way down.

phydaux wrote:

auticus wrote:


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 DoomMouse wrote:
Maybe a few entire assault armies are poor, but some of the game's best units are assault oriented. Custodes Jetbikes are great in assault, as are blood angels smash captains. The knight gallant is also looking pretty hot too.

Orks are really quite strong as well when you build around nothing but Boyz, stormboyz and supporting characters (though their other units are over costed)

Tyranid genestealers and Khorne berserkers are also considered decently strong with the right support

I think the assault mechanics are fine and very powerful, you just need to lower the points costs of certain garbage assault units (looking at you assault marines)

Orks & 'Nids are horde armies, Custodes Jetbikes are Codex Creep, and Smash Captains & Berzerkers are single units limited by the Rule of 3.

Well if you ignore or discuss all of the game's top assault units then of course it will appear skewed. As mentioned above, you can add dark eldar Talos, Wyches and grotesques to that list too. Custodes bikers are probably the strongest unit in the game right now, and they're an elite melee unit!

Assault as a mechanic is really strong, to the point where I'm often charging guardsmen in to tie up units, stop shooting or preventing a unit falling back and charging something else.

Again, there are plenty of poor assault units out there, but they would immediately be better if you shaved a little from their points costs.

eh, is letting transports move and drop off assaulting troops that much worse than 9" deepstrike + charge (+ reroll)?

Personal opinion, but I think it's unwise to run across a battlefield into laserfire with the priority to get into hand-to-hand combat. So, I don't mind ranged combat being able to mow down troops who want to do so. But the points should definitely reflect that.

Perhaps if flanking and suppression were a bigger part of 40K, trying to gunline might not be so boring to force people to want to do so much melee to create a false sense of action.

I dont think changing transports is the right fix to melee. Not all armies who are centered around melee have the ability to take transports, and it would be just the same or even better as turn 1 Deep Strike was. I do think most melee units need a serious rebalance in points and stats. Berserkers are fine cause they are pretty cheap and durable and still dish out atleast 6 pretty strong attacks each combat phase. Warp Talons suck as they pay a premium for useless rules and have only 2 attacks. Melee centered units need to be either durable for their points cost or pack a serious punch, so you can actually take 1 or 2 rounds of shooting and then either tie the enemy into lasting close combat or deal serious damage to their lines.

To me 4th and 8 have had the best combat rules.
The issue I have with units disembarking after their transport moves either to charge or shoot is...what are you going to choose to do? I feel that 905 of the time I will choose to charge. Shooting won't be as effective unless it's done by a unit killted specifically for the occasion. In 5th I used combi-plasma wolf guard in droppods jut to kill off Synaps critters on turn one.
It's the same thing. We'll see strong assault units in transports over their ranged equivalents supported by strong shooting units from the back field, tac marines will still be regarded as a poor choice. Mean while it may grant an edge over a large model count army but players will still need some kind of meat grinder units in those transports, maybe elite units get a bit stronger on the table. hard to say. But things like Green tides wont be adequately thinned out ahead of combat. Almost like, again to me, it would drag us back to a previous edition of the game.
Maybe it would balance things like ITC out for that kind of play. Don't know but I would look at how this rule effects each type of play and each type of mission format. I feel 8th is balanced to itself fairly well.
I mention ITC/competitive formats because I read a fair bit about slow games and players trying to play as quick as they can. It might speed that kind of thing up for them. If some one wants to house rule it and report results it might be interesting. The only balancing factor I would hope for such a rule is that it applies to every vehicle that can transport a unit not just some vehicles that can transport.
Just my first thoughts on it I need more coffee.

 Stormonu wrote:
eh, is letting transports move and drop off assaulting troops that much worse than 9" deepstrike + charge (+ reroll)?

Personal opinion, but I think it's unwise to run across a battlefield into laserfire with the priority to get into hand-to-hand combat. So, I don't mind ranged combat being able to mow down troops who want to do so. But the points should definitely reflect that.

Perhaps if flanking and suppression were a bigger part of 40K, trying to gunline might not be so boring to force people to want to do so much melee to create a false sense of action.

I think what people are missing is that transports already grant occupants the ability to move 3"+(base diameter) towards their opponent. 99% of the time, this enables a turn 2 charge, and the transports are required to weather one turn of fire to make that happen.

in concept, this is fine. It synergizes with post-FAQ deep strike, it enables you to bring other armored threats with a mechanized list to force your opponent to waste anti-armor fire that would otherwise threaten them on the transports, and it allows mechanized melee to differ from fast biker-based melee in a meaningful way.

The problem overall is that even in strong codexes, there are relatively few combinations where you actually have a fairly-priced transport, or a fairly-priced assault unit that NEEDS a transport.

Chaos Marines would have a fairly-priced assault unit paired with a half decent transport in Khorne Bezerkers in Rhinos, but KB's have access to the broken turn 1 alpha legion crutch, so you're never going to see them picking rhinos. ATM, stacking more than 10 KBs into your list pretty much just turns your army into "if I go first, I win. If I go second, I lose."

Drukhari actually do have fairly priced assault units and fairly priced transports, and will use them exactly as described. Wyches in venoms or raiders, grotesques in raiders paired with an ablative Lhamean to avoid 1s on emergency disembarks, wracks in venoms are a pretty common sight, and pair well with the overall tempo of the army trying to cause hurt turn 2.

Eldar have a fairly priced transport, but no fairly priced assault unit that wants a transport. Wraithblades, Howling Banshees, and Striking Scorpions are all overpriced, so they'll basically always use shining spears. And when I say that I mean shining spears are in every. Single. Eldar list.

Custodes: Fairly priced assault, no fairly priced transport. See Land Raiders, silly FW things that cost 9000 points.

Orks are still in the index and have overpriced transports. Guard transports are overpriced. GSC transports are overpriced. Marine transports are overpriced AND their assault units are mostly overpriced - the exceptions have jump packs and access to Blood Angels 3D6 charge strat, so don't use transports. Admech didn't have transports until recently, and just got one for FW, and guess what's amazing in it? Their assault units.

Don't 'fix' the problem of assault armies by enabling my wyches to move 14"+4"+8"+D6" and then charge across the board turn 1. Nobody is going to have fun against that.

the_scotsman wrote:
And when I say that I mean shining spears are in every. Single. Eldar list.

What a time to be alive

the_scotsman wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
eh, is letting transports move and drop off assaulting troops that much worse than 9" deepstrike + charge (+ reroll)?

Personal opinion, but I think it's unwise to run across a battlefield into laserfire with the priority to get into hand-to-hand combat. So, I don't mind ranged combat being able to mow down troops who want to do so. But the points should definitely reflect that.

Perhaps if flanking and suppression were a bigger part of 40K, trying to gunline might not be so boring to force people to want to do so much melee to create a false sense of action.

I think what people are missing is that transports already grant occupants the ability to move 3"+(base diameter) towards their opponent. 99% of the time, this enables a turn 2 charge, and the transports are required to weather one turn of fire to make that happen.

in concept, this is fine. It synergizes with post-FAQ deep strike, it enables you to bring other armored threats with a mechanized list to force your opponent to waste anti-armor fire that would otherwise threaten them on the transports, and it allows mechanized melee to differ from fast biker-based melee in a meaningful way.

The problem overall is that even in strong codexes, there are relatively few combinations where you actually have a fairly-priced transport, or a fairly-priced assault unit that NEEDS a transport.

Chaos Marines would have a fairly-priced assault unit paired with a half decent transport in Khorne Bezerkers in Rhinos, but KB's have access to the broken turn 1 alpha legion crutch, so you're never going to see them picking rhinos. ATM, stacking more than 10 KBs into your list pretty much just turns your army into "if I go first, I win. If I go second, I lose."

Drukhari actually do have fairly priced assault units and fairly priced transports, and will use them exactly as described. Wyches in venoms or raiders, grotesques in raiders paired with an ablative Lhamean to avoid 1s on emergency disembarks, wracks in venoms are a pretty common sight, and pair well with the overall tempo of the army trying to cause hurt turn 2.

Eldar have a fairly priced transport, but no fairly priced assault unit that wants a transport. Wraithblades, Howling Banshees, and Striking Scorpions are all overpriced, so they'll basically always use shining spears. And when I say that I mean shining spears are in every. Single. Eldar list.

Custodes: Fairly priced assault, no fairly priced transport. See Land Raiders, silly FW things that cost 9000 points.

Orks are still in the index and have overpriced transports. Guard transports are overpriced. GSC transports are overpriced. Marine transports are overpriced AND their assault units are mostly overpriced - the exceptions have jump packs and access to Blood Angels 3D6 charge strat, so don't use transports. Admech didn't have transports until recently, and just got one for FW, and guess what's amazing in it? Their assault units.

Don't 'fix' the problem of assault armies by enabling my wyches to move 14"+4"+8"+D6" and then charge across the board turn 1. Nobody is going to have fun against that.

Good list, my personal army is stuck in limbo at the moment, overpriced units in overpriced transports, add to that he DS nerf and rule of 3, pure Deathwing are in a bad place at the moment... but what else is new haha

 Formosa wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
eh, is letting transports move and drop off assaulting troops that much worse than 9" deepstrike + charge (+ reroll)?

Personal opinion, but I think it's unwise to run across a battlefield into laserfire with the priority to get into hand-to-hand combat. So, I don't mind ranged combat being able to mow down troops who want to do so. But the points should definitely reflect that.

Perhaps if flanking and suppression were a bigger part of 40K, trying to gunline might not be so boring to force people to want to do so much melee to create a false sense of action.

I think what people are missing is that transports already grant occupants the ability to move 3"+(base diameter) towards their opponent. 99% of the time, this enables a turn 2 charge, and the transports are required to weather one turn of fire to make that happen.

in concept, this is fine. It synergizes with post-FAQ deep strike, it enables you to bring other armored threats with a mechanized list to force your opponent to waste anti-armor fire that would otherwise threaten them on the transports, and it allows mechanized melee to differ from fast biker-based melee in a meaningful way.

The problem overall is that even in strong codexes, there are relatively few combinations where you actually have a fairly-priced transport, or a fairly-priced assault unit that NEEDS a transport.

Chaos Marines would have a fairly-priced assault unit paired with a half decent transport in Khorne Bezerkers in Rhinos, but KB's have access to the broken turn 1 alpha legion crutch, so you're never going to see them picking rhinos. ATM, stacking more than 10 KBs into your list pretty much just turns your army into "if I go first, I win. If I go second, I lose."

Drukhari actually do have fairly priced assault units and fairly priced transports, and will use them exactly as described. Wyches in venoms or raiders, grotesques in raiders paired with an ablative Lhamean to avoid 1s on emergency disembarks, wracks in venoms are a pretty common sight, and pair well with the overall tempo of the army trying to cause hurt turn 2.

Eldar have a fairly priced transport, but no fairly priced assault unit that wants a transport. Wraithblades, Howling Banshees, and Striking Scorpions are all overpriced, so they'll basically always use shining spears. And when I say that I mean shining spears are in every. Single. Eldar list.

Custodes: Fairly priced assault, no fairly priced transport. See Land Raiders, silly FW things that cost 9000 points.

Orks are still in the index and have overpriced transports. Guard transports are overpriced. GSC transports are overpriced. Marine transports are overpriced AND their assault units are mostly overpriced - the exceptions have jump packs and access to Blood Angels 3D6 charge strat, so don't use transports. Admech didn't have transports until recently, and just got one for FW, and guess what's amazing in it? Their assault units.

Don't 'fix' the problem of assault armies by enabling my wyches to move 14"+4"+8"+D6" and then charge across the board turn 1. Nobody is going to have fun against that.

Good list, my personal army is stuck in limbo at the moment, overpriced units in overpriced transports, add to that he DS nerf and rule of 3, pure Deathwing are in a bad place at the moment... but what else is new haha

Yeah. I mean, it boggles my mind. People say "Assault out of transports suck!" but lets see, what currently wants to assault out of transports?

-Orks. Still in the index.

-Dark Eldar, which do that just fine.

-Harlequins, which do that just fine.

-Anything imperial or chaos related runs into problems because Rhinos, Chimeras and Land Raiders are overcosted, and the units that do work well as a transport - the various flyer transports, Razorbacks, Tauroxes etc - are driven up in price because they mount guns, not because they don't want to be in assault. Valkyries, Stormravens, Blackstars, and WolfyMcwolfertons are actually really quite solid as assault transports, they're just so bloody costly that its hard to cram an assault unit expensive enough into them to justify the price of the plane. If you want to run an elite assault army and don't have strats to get in off deep strike thats the way to do it though - Dreadnought+Terminators or footy Death Guard in a Stormraven, Bullgryns in a Valkyrie, Wulfen in a WolfWolfSQUIRRELarooo, all are really nasty assault threats.

Orks don't care about transports.

Neither do Tyranids.

 Marmatag wrote:
Orks don't care about transports.

Neither do Tyranids.

In what sense do you mean?

phydaux wrote:

auticus wrote:
The other thing that went hand in hand with busted in 3rd edition were the assault units that were decked out in power weapons.

I watched a game at the Chicago GT in 1999 where it was Blood Angels vs Imperial Guard and the Blood Angels player TABLED the IG player in turn 1, and the IG player hadn't even moved yet.

Gross.

Part of that was when 3rd first dropped if you wiped out a unit in assault then you could make a 3" consolidation move, and if that move brought you into another enemy unit then you got locked in close combat with THAT unit.

Uhh, don't forget Sweeping Advance, where if you broke a unit and ran it down you moved 2D6 towards the enemy and locked new units that way, too. Opposing squads got to fire at you in their turn, but it made for some fast moving battle lines.

 Marmatag wrote:
Orks don't care about transports.

Neither do Tyranids.

I mean, tyranids don't actually have them. I don't count a second model you can put down on the table to grant a unit deep strike as a transport. In that same sense Admech don't care about transports...except that they do, and a fairly priced transport for admech could (and does, to some extent with the new drill) fix a lot of really underpowered melee units that were too slow/costly to effectively make it to combat before dying.

Orks don't currently care about transports because their transports are overpriced. So they just...never bring any unit that would benefit from a fairly priced transport.

Saying that assault units are overcosted and should get a points cost cut is the EXACT SAME THING as saying that assault in general is underpowered this edition.

Also keep in mind that unless your codex offers you assaulty units as Troops choices then your assault options get hard capped by the Rule of Three.

Jbz` wrote:
If the full movement of a transport before disembarking and assaulting is too much couldn't it be limited to half?
With maybe some exceptions for vehicles that are designed to launch quick assaults (Land raiders/Ork Trukks/Dark Eldar Raiders etc)

Perhaps even if the unit only gets to disembark up to a certain amount from the vehicle (lets say 3" for argument's sake) and not move themselves after doing so, other than to run/charge.

Bring back the concept of combat speed and cruising speed for vehicles - you can only disembark when moving at combat speed, but can do so after the transport has moved (following all other 8th ed rules for disembarking). Such a simple change will really bring back transports for all factions into the game (sorry Ad Mech, no transports for you)

 SHUPPET wrote:
Assault is stronger than it has been since I started playing the game. With the exclusion of ridiculous Deathstars in 6th, but I think that's a different archetype. OP you do not understand the game well enough to be making threads like this. Play more and level yourself up. That's all there is to it.


Signed, a player who mains close combat armies.


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Wow some OP's responses. This is the worst thread I've seen on here in a while.

Don't validate it by debating him, he's been here 8 years, he knows what he's doing.

yeah, but it seems like that the "good" assault units just ignore the core rules of assault. Jetbikes, custodes, demon princes, BA captins etc they all have some rule that breaks stufff, ignore overwatch, 30" assault range, super resilient, charging stuff durning opponent turn etc. On the flip side something like a melee termintors or GK strike dude is slow, has few attacks, has to pay high cost for melee weapons, but dies before he can use them etc.

the_scotsman wrote:
Orks don't currently care about transports because their transports are overpriced. So they just...never bring any unit that would benefit from a fairly priced transport.

Another issue is that 12 orks just aren't much of a threat. Many targets will cripple that in overwatch. And then you don't make much of a dent when you hit. And get killed easily. And don't get +1A. Oh and your LD sucks. In short even if trukk was 20 pts not sure would trukk boyz be all that viable...So trukks would be good for tank bustas(shooting) and maybe like mega nobz and nobz if they were worth fielding.

3rd was a debacle?...most fun I ever had was in 3rd.

Karol wrote:
yeah, but it seems like that the "good" assault units just ignore the core rules of assault. Jetbikes, custodes, demon princes, BA captins etc they all have some rule that breaks stufff, ignore overwatch, 30" assault range, super resilient, charging stuff durning opponent turn etc. On the flip side something like a melee termintors or GK strike dude is slow, has few attacks, has to pay high cost for melee weapons, but dies before he can use them etc.

Unfortunately this has been the case for a long time - possibly forever.

Its hard to see how "bad assault units" would become viable with a 6" extra move.