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w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
The majority obviously hates them. hatred is not reserved for untamed psykers or witches.

Can you please give a lore example of anyone outside of the ecclesiarchy wanting to murder an inquisitor or a space marine librarian for simply being a sanctioned psyker? I'll wait.

There are numerous lore examples in the Ciaphas Cain novels that sanctioned psykers are treated with distrust, but not outright hatred. The fact that Eisenhorn and Ravenor were both psychic inquisitors and to my knowledge never faced any kind of stigma for that also support my claims.

I never said anything about murder. I gave you one, the witch hunters codex, states that the Imperium treats psykers as deviants. Inquisitors don't suffer stigma because they are the ultimate authority other than the custodes. So what if some people or people that work with psykers don't treat them with disdain. Show evidence of what you are actually saying that only untrained and uncontrolled psykers are treated with hate, of course you can find single instances where they aren't hated.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I never said anything about murder. I gave you one, the witch hunters codex, states that the Imperium treats psykers as deviants.

And they do. But treating someone like a deviant doesn't necessarily mean you automatically hate them and want to burn them at the stake, it just means they are treated differently. Sanctioned psykers ARE treated differently. I just don't think that a random astropath who has actually been in the presence of the emperor and gone blind as a result, and has served the imperium faithfully for decades is going to get anywhere near the same level of hatred as a freshly arrested unsanctioned witch. They are definitely not treated the same.

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I never said anything about murder. I gave you one, the witch hunters codex, states that the Imperium treats psykers as deviants.

And they do. But treating someone like a deviant doesn't necessarily mean you automatically hate them and want to burn them at the stake, it just means they are treated differently. Sanctioned psykers ARE treated differently. I just don't think that a random astropath who has actually been in the presence of the emperor and gone blind as a result, and has served the imperium faithfully for decades is going to get anywhere near the same level of hatred as a freshly arrested unsanctioned witch. They are definitely not treated the same.

'And they do. But treating someone like a deviant doesn't necessarily mean you automatically hate them' really,... sanctioned psykers are 'tolerated' they are only not treated the same by the people that work or fight with them. The Inquisition hunt psykers, they normally hate everything they hunt.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
'And they do. But treating someone like a deviant doesn't necessarily mean you automatically hate them' really,... sanctioned psykers are 'tolerated' they are only not treated the same by the people that work or fight with them. The Inquisition hunt psykers, they normally hate everything they hunt.

Many inquisitors are psykers themselves. They don't hate themselves.

The Inquisition doesn't really hunt psykers because they are psykers, they hunt dangerous individuals both inside and outside of the Imperium, which includes psykers. Most planetary governments do their own sweeps for psykers and hand them over once a Black Ship passes by, which technically isn't a branch of the Inquisition, although they frequently cooperate, because certain collected psykers can be valuable. But other organizations cooperate with Black Ships as well to recruit/gather information. Hunting psykers is more a job of the locals.

I mean, the Imperium isn't exactly a nice and/or competent place, that's basically Warhammer 101. If you find it hilarious than the entire idea of Grimdark I think has gone over your head.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Psykers = sorcery. It's very much what they do.

Then why aren't Custodes psychic? Why aren't all Astartes? Why aren't more people? The man could have easily made many more psykers but he didn't do that. He did make anti psyker plans.

Psykers don't equal sorcery lol He only made anti-controllable psychic plans. As for the evolution, there is no mechanism for natural selection, so the psykers will never die out, he would probably look to start spreading them into the gene-pool when they became more stable.

Custodes aren't psychic to protect them from chaos, Astartes aren't all psykers because psykers are so rare, every psyker they get they use though. How is he going to make more psykers exactly... He made ant-uncontrolled psyker plans.

Psychic powers come from genetic mutation. The Emperor can pretty easily put that gene into people if he made three different superhuman races.

MalfunctBot wrote:
I mean, the Imperium isn't exactly a nice and/or competent place, that's basically Warhammer 101. If you find it hilarious than the entire idea of Grimdark I think has gone over your head.

But Grimdark is often so over-the-top that it becomes hilarious...

Like the totally insane GK recruiting where they kill (well, the tests kill but anyway) over a thousand prospects to get a single recruit. And all those prospects are already singled out as the elite of the elite, being both powerful (potential) psykers and geneseed-compatible. And ofc they kill almost everyone outside the Inquisition or some select other high-ups who even learn of their existence, so I guess for every prospect they bring to Titan they've already gone through a thousand more in unsuitables put down for having unstable psychic powers or just killed because they saw a GK recruiter and he's super secret...

Tell me that's not hilariously over-the-top.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The Inquisition doesn't really hunt psykers because they are psykers, they hunt dangerous individuals both inside and outside of the Imperium, which includes psykers. Most planetary governments do their own sweeps for psykers and hand them over once a Black Ship passes by, which technically isn't a branch of the Inquisition, although they frequently cooperate, because certain collected psykers can be valuable. But other organizations cooperate with Black Ships as well to recruit/gather information. Hunting psykers is more a job of the locals.

Ordo Hereticus hunts psykers.

Delvarus Centurion never fails to amuse.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I find it hilariously that the Imperium treat psykers like crap, when the Emperor himself is a psyker and he himself allowed psykers into the Legio Astartes lol I'd love to see Girlyman explain that to the Inquisition.

You do realise that the Emperor wasn't just a psyker, He was THE psyker. The Emperor's power was VERY different to the normal human psykers. A human psyker has one soul and at most decades of practice. The Emperor has the power of thousands of souls fused into one and 50,000 years of practice.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The Inquisition doesn't really hunt psykers because they are psykers, they hunt dangerous individuals both inside and outside of the Imperium, which includes psykers. Most planetary governments do their own sweeps for psykers and hand them over once a Black Ship passes by, which technically isn't a branch of the Inquisition, although they frequently cooperate, because certain collected psykers can be valuable. But other organizations cooperate with Black Ships as well to recruit/gather information. Hunting psykers is more a job of the locals.

Ordo Hereticus hunts psykers.

Ordo Hereticus hunts heretics, which includes far more than just psykers, its aimed at internal treachery, not specifically psykers. It was also only founded halfway through the span of the Imperium as a consequence Age of Apostasy, which was an internal civil war. Besides, the Ordo Malleus can just as easily hunt dangerous psykers, psykers being a bit of a potato potato case which way the threat might swing to. Hunting regular psykers has always been the responsibility of local governments and has been part of the Imperial tithe, occurring far before the foundation of the Ordo Hereticus.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I find it hilariously that the authorities treat bomb making enthusiasts like crap, when Oppenheimer was a bomb maker and he himself developed atomic weapons dropped on Japan lol I'd love to see Gonald Grumph explain that to the CIA.

The difference is between an unstable madman living next door who can open a portal to hell and the God Emperor who even now is using his psychic energies to hold the materium together and direct the astronomicon, making warp travel possible.

You must consider the historical context of psykers in the Imperium. Psykers are treated with suspicion in 40k and hauled off to black ships for the same reason the police were called on a middle eastern boy who brought a suitcase full of clock parts to school. It may be distasteful but it is a valid reason, and the stakes are too high for the benefit of the doubt or presumption of innocence- a running theme in the Imperium

No, that isn't for the same reason at all. Real life has few comparisons that can be drawn to 40K in this regard. The real life example is just bias (or worse), hauling off psykers is based on a verifiable and very real risk not to get gakked on by daemons.

So does that mean the chart for the IoM is wrong?

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The Inquisition doesn't really hunt psykers because they are psykers, they hunt dangerous individuals both inside and outside of the Imperium, which includes psykers. Most planetary governments do their own sweeps for psykers and hand them over once a Black Ship passes by, which technically isn't a branch of the Inquisition, although they frequently cooperate, because certain collected psykers can be valuable. But other organizations cooperate with Black Ships as well to recruit/gather information. Hunting psykers is more a job of the locals.

Ordo Hereticus hunts psykers.

Ordo Hereticus hunts heretics, which includes far more than just psykers, its aimed at internal treachery, not specifically psykers. It was also only founded halfway through the span of the Imperium as a consequence Age of Apostasy, which was an internal civil war. Besides, the Ordo Malleus can just as easily hunt dangerous psykers, psykers being a bit of a potato potato case which way the threat might swing to. Hunting regular psykers has always been the responsibility of local governments and has been part of the Imperial tithe, occurring far before the foundation of the Ordo Hereticus.

It does hunt psykers. So what if they don't hunt them exclusively.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 =Angel= wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I find it hilariously that the authorities treat bomb making enthusiasts like crap, when Oppenheimer was a bomb maker and he himself developed atomic weapons dropped on Japan lol I'd love to see Gonald Grumph explain that to the CIA.

The difference is between an unstable madman living next door who can open a portal to hell and the God Emperor who even now is using his psychic energies to hold the materium together and direct the astronomicon, making warp travel possible.

You must consider the historical context of psykers in the Imperium. Psykers are treated with suspicion in 40k and hauled off to black ships for the same reason the police were called on a middle eastern boy who brought a suitcase full of clock parts to school. It may be distasteful but it is a valid reason, and the stakes are too high for the benefit of the doubt or presumption of innocence- a running theme in the Imperium

Exactly, they are treated with disdain, they always have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Delvarus Centurion never fails to amuse.

How come, are you really trying to suggest that the Imperium loves psykers. I swear people just like to contradict me because I'm a bit of an donkey-cave so they take absurd positions, like the Imperium loves psykers.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The Inquisition doesn't really hunt psykers because they are psykers, they hunt dangerous individuals both inside and outside of the Imperium, which includes psykers. Most planetary governments do their own sweeps for psykers and hand them over once a Black Ship passes by, which technically isn't a branch of the Inquisition, although they frequently cooperate, because certain collected psykers can be valuable. But other organizations cooperate with Black Ships as well to recruit/gather information. Hunting psykers is more a job of the locals.

Ordo Hereticus hunts psykers.

Ordo Hereticus hunts heretics, which includes far more than just psykers, its aimed at internal treachery, not specifically psykers. It was also only founded halfway through the span of the Imperium as a consequence Age of Apostasy, which was an internal civil war. Besides, the Ordo Malleus can just as easily hunt dangerous psykers, psykers being a bit of a potato potato case which way the threat might swing to. Hunting regular psykers has always been the responsibility of local governments and has been part of the Imperial tithe, occurring far before the foundation of the Ordo Hereticus.

It does hunt psykers. So what if they don't hunt them exclusively

I'm just saying that hunting psykers is not the objective of the Inquisition. Sure it happens, but the vast majority in hunted down by your local enforcers. There is no single hunting policy, just an Imperial tithe on worlds. As in, the Inquisition has no special hatred for psykers, they are some of their best tools/recruits, the hatred is directed at those that want to harm the Imperium.

1 - The average imperial citizen sees the emperor as a god, not a man, so he's not a 'psyker', and any discussion to the contrary is unlikely to get past the "we found a heretic, may we burn him?" territory.

2 - Even educated imperials see (sanctioned) psykers as a regrettable neccessity for stuff like the telepathica astra and astronomican, but know how horribly dangerous they are. Relevant quote:

“Imagine knowing there was a door to the realm of Daemons, and the slightest inattention on your behalf would see them batter it down and rip you to shreds. Now imagine that door is inside your head. That’s what being a psyker is like.”

— Castus Lupa, Savant Adjunct

3 - The Ordo Hereticus do hunt unsanctioned (including newly emerged) psykers. Psykers are allowed to exist ONLY if they have (a) received scholastica psykana (or equivalent, like a marine Librarius) training and they actively serve the imperium. Otherwise it's purging time.

4 - Sorcery and Psychic Power are similar but sublty different:
Psychic power is your 'natural'* power level, whilst sorcery is 'unnatural'* ways of increasing it with artefacts (chaos talisman/psychic hood), rituals (like psykana training or enuncia), or connections with more powerful entities (like daemonic pacts or imperial soulbinding). Yes, that does mean all trained psykers use sorcery to some degree, but the term 'sorceror' (as an accusation or criticism) usually means 'pacts with daemons'. Which - to a sufficiently gifted malefic scholar, doesn't actually NEED you to be a psyker in the first place. By comparison, totally untrained psykers who are still strong enough to have meaningful, but totally instinctive, powers, are usually called 'wyrds', and it's 'wyrds' and 'sorcerors' that form the witches witch-hunter inquisitors actually hunt.




* in so far as those terms mean anything with the warp.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The Inquisition doesn't really hunt psykers because they are psykers, they hunt dangerous individuals both inside and outside of the Imperium, which includes psykers. Most planetary governments do their own sweeps for psykers and hand them over once a Black Ship passes by, which technically isn't a branch of the Inquisition, although they frequently cooperate, because certain collected psykers can be valuable. But other organizations cooperate with Black Ships as well to recruit/gather information. Hunting psykers is more a job of the locals.

Ordo Hereticus hunts psykers.

Ordo Hereticus hunts heretics, which includes far more than just psykers, its aimed at internal treachery, not specifically psykers. It was also only founded halfway through the span of the Imperium as a consequence Age of Apostasy, which was an internal civil war. Besides, the Ordo Malleus can just as easily hunt dangerous psykers, psykers being a bit of a potato potato case which way the threat might swing to. Hunting regular psykers has always been the responsibility of local governments and has been part of the Imperial tithe, occurring far before the foundation of the Ordo Hereticus.

It does hunt psykers. So what if they don't hunt them exclusively

I'm just saying that hunting psykers is not the objective of the Inquisition. Sure it happens, but the vast majority in hunted down by your local enforcers. There is no single hunting policy, just an Imperial tithe on worlds. As in, the Inquisition has no special hatred for psykers, they are some of their best tools/recruits, the hatred is directed at those that want to harm the Imperium.

I never said it was a singular hunting policy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

locarno24 wrote:
1 - The average imperial citizen sees the emperor as a god, not a man, so he's not a 'psyker', and any discussion to the contrary is unlikely to get past the "we found a heretic, may we burn him?" territory.

2 - Even educated imperials see (sanctioned) psykers as a regrettable neccessity for stuff like the telepathica astra and astronomican, but know how horribly dangerous they are. Relevant quote:

“Imagine knowing there was a door to the realm of Daemons, and the slightest inattention on your behalf would see them batter it down and rip you to shreds. Now imagine that door is inside your head. That’s what being a psyker is like.”

— Castus Lupa, Savant Adjunct

3 - The Ordo Hereticus do hunt unsanctioned (including newly emerged) psykers. Psykers are allowed to exist ONLY if they have (a) received scholastica psykana (or equivalent, like a marine Librarius) training and they actively serve the imperium. Otherwise it's purging time.

4 - Sorcery and Psychic Power are similar but sublty different:
Psychic power is your 'natural'* power level, whilst sorcery is 'unnatural'* ways of increasing it with artefacts (chaos talisman/psychic hood), rituals (like psykana training or enuncia), or connections with more powerful entities (like daemonic pacts or imperial soulbinding). Yes, that does mean all trained psykers use sorcery to some degree, but the term 'sorceror' (as an accusation or criticism) usually means 'pacts with daemons'. Which - to a sufficiently gifted malefic scholar, doesn't actually NEED you to be a psyker in the first place. By comparison, totally untrained psykers who are still strong enough to have meaningful, but totally instinctive, powers, are usually called 'wyrds', and it's 'wyrds' and 'sorcerors' that form the witches witch-hunter inquisitors actually hunt.




* in so far as those terms mean anything with the warp.

Exactly that's why I find it interesting to see them find out he isn't a god and is merely a super strong psyker.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

I never said it was a singular hunting policy.

I didn't say you did.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But the citizens themselves elevated the Emperor as a god because if his actions. He always denied being one himself but even then people were pushing it on him, and people in 30K weren't exactly more friendly towards psykers considering it was on the back end of Old Night/the Age of Strife. If they don't know for argument's sake, would they care if you told them? I mean in the Warhammer universe huge power and godhood are a pretty fine line considering the Eldar.

Exactly. It's not so much a secret as 'yeah, the astartes say that too, and they're also wrong. But we're allowed to burn YOU...'

locarno24 wrote:
Exactly. It's not so much a secret as 'yeah, the astartes say that too, and they're also wrong. But we're allowed to burn YOU...'

I highly doubt that the average Imperial citizen is frothing at the mouth to burn space marine librarians, astropaths, and inquisitors at the stake and are only prevented from doing so by the threat of retaliation.

It is far more likely they see these individuals as dangerous and perhaps untrustworthy, whilst regarding them with a mixture of fear and perhaps a little awe for mastering their "curse" to the point of being considered a sanctioned psyker. And unsanctioned witch? Oh heck yeah, light that bonfire.

w1zard wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
Exactly. It's not so much a secret as 'yeah, the astartes say that too, and they're also wrong. But we're allowed to burn YOU...'

I highly doubt that the average Imperial citizen is frothing at the mouth to burn space marine librarians, astropaths, and inquisitors at the stake and are only prevented from doing so by the threat of retaliation.

It is far more likely they see these individuals as dangerous and perhaps untrustworthy, whilst regarding them with a mixture of fear and perhaps a little awe for mastering their "curse" to the point of being considered a sanctioned psyker. And unsanctioned witch? Oh heck yeah, light that bonfire.

Funnily enough some radicals on Terra were angry enough to want to fight Space Wolves in the Ragnar novels. You can imagine how a bar fight against Wolves went.

Some Imperial radicals take crazy to a new level.

Kill the mutant (psykers) the Xenos and the heretic.

Pretty clear the imperium at large hates psykers, them being mutants, like I said before though most wouldn’t even recognise one if they saw one... at least until blood started dripping from the walls.

Spetulhu wrote:

MalfunctBot wrote:
I mean, the Imperium isn't exactly a nice and/or competent place, that's basically Warhammer 101. If you find it hilarious than the entire idea of Grimdark I think has gone over your head.

But Grimdark is often so over-the-top that it becomes hilarious...

Like the totally insane GK recruiting where they kill (well, the tests kill but anyway) over a thousand prospects to get a single recruit. And all those prospects are already singled out as the elite of the elite, being both powerful (potential) psykers and geneseed-compatible. And ofc they kill almost everyone outside the Inquisition or some select other high-ups who even learn of their existence, so I guess for every prospect they bring to Titan they've already gone through a thousand more in unsuitables put down for having unstable psychic powers or just killed because they saw a GK recruiter and he's super secret...

Tell me that's not hilariously over-the-top.

I should've been more clear. What I meant was that him finding the fact the Imperium makes stupid, contradictory and hypocritical decisions hilarious means that the entire idea of 40k and the Imperium has gone over his head. It's not like, for instance, if the Republic in Star Wars irrationally feared and discriminated against force users. You can laugh at that because it'd be completely contradictory to the setting and seem stupid in context. For the Imperium however it makes perfect sense to hate the psyker even when He was one. It makes perfect sense to be stupid and hypocritical because it fits into the central theme of 40k being a dystopian, scientifically and morally backwards hell where there is no hope and only war. To find this central theme hilarious because its stupid and nonsensical means that 40k is maybe not the setting for you.

Finding over the top Grimdark amusing is perfectly fine (personally any Administratum sources of Grimdark never fail to make me chuckle).

pm713 wrote:
Some Imperial radicals take crazy to a new level.

Sure, but I doubt many of them exist outside of radicalized sects, or the ecclesiarchy.

Most citizens of the Imperium are just normal everyday people with a little dose of 40K sprinkled on top because of the setting.

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Some Imperial radicals take crazy to a new level.

Sure, but I doubt many of them exist outside of radicalized sects, or the ecclesiarchy.

Most citizens of the Imperium are just normal everyday people with a little dose of 40K sprinkled on top because of the setting.

They are but I find you tend to see crazy people more often than not. But that's probably because Bob the radical who wants to assassinate Marines has a more interesting life than Jim whose a happy factory worker with a wife and kids.

MalfunctBot wrote:
I should've been more clear. What I meant was that him finding the fact the Imperium makes stupid, contradictory and hypocritical decisions hilarious means that the entire idea of 40k and the Imperium has gone over his head. It's not like, for instance, if the Republic in Star Wars irrationally feared and discriminated against force users. You can laugh at that because it'd be completely contradictory to the setting and seem stupid in context. For the Imperium however it makes perfect sense to hate the psyker even when He was one. It makes perfect sense to be stupid and hypocritical because it fits into the central theme of 40k being a dystopian, scientifically and morally backwards hell where there is no hope and only war. To find this central theme hilarious because its stupid and nonsensical means that 40k is maybe not the setting for you.

Finding over the top Grimdark amusing is perfectly fine (personally any Administratum sources of Grimdark never fail to make me chuckle).

IDK, the setting has been gradually moving further away from its "grimdark just to be grimdark and makes no apologies" roots and more into "grimdark where it makes sense, and not where it doesn't". I personally welcome the changes, because it means that the setting has matured from something that was originally designed to be a parody, and is turning into something that is self-actualized and respectable. Some of the early fluff was not only "hilarious" IMO but downright stupid from my perspective.

MalfunctBot wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
But Grimdark is often so over-the-top that it becomes hilarious...

Finding over the top Grimdark amusing is perfectly fine (personally any Administratum sources of Grimdark never fail to make me chuckle).

In that case my apologies, I didn't mean to imply you fail to see the ridiculousness of some stuff. I too chuckle at some of the better ones, like the propaganda from the recent Ultramar defense. Yeah, the ocean is actually acid so if one of your fellow guardsmen is about to fall overboard remember to grab his lasgun and grenades, those are valuable Munitorum property...

And as I already posted earlier some of the Grimdark does make sense, like having control of exactly who walks around with a doorway to a realm full of daemons in his head. It's a real threat, just as evil magicians in the fantasy version of the game are a threat.

I find that 40k has two kinds of stupidity. There's funny stupid like Inquisitor Obiwan Sherlock Clouseau (I think?) which I like and stupid stupid like "Ultramarines are the best Chapter and everyone wants to be like them except dirty deviant Chapters" which nobody sane likes.