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No bothered about lack of vehicles more concerned with all the other issues

Lack of customisation despite the assertion that the reason to not use some factions was lack of plastic and hence customisation.
Poor choice of units available to some factions
Factions not even included

Kill Team isn't about vehicles. It's about infantry

Is it? What is the limit to Infantry - do we (as apparently will be the case) include Giant Wolf Marines riding Wolves?

Tyranid Warriors, Steatlh Suits and Lictors are not standard infantry.

Where is the ability to make those Elite special teams that GW stated was the point of the game

Cool I'll make some Guard Veterans - Catachans and Ork Hunters with close combat weapons with a medic and a couple of hardened gunmen, say one with a couple of pistols she has acquired

Ah well no - We don't have Veterans in the game - well yes you can roll them on our background chart but that's just for fun, no it doesn't actually make them veterans, Oh and sorry no close combat weapons, nope no 2 pistols.... a Medic - wll no you would need to be a Beastman to do that!

but er...... hey you can use this standard Cadian squad - or use your Catachans and pretend that they are Cadians - cos reasons.

Ok I'll use a few Aspect Warriors - mainly Scorpions sneaking behind the enemy lines like they do in the stories.

Ah well no actually - sneaky elder are Scouts - and well - oh yeah Guardians with Grav platforms - yeah sneaky.

"just play regular 40k, it has vehicles"

easy for some to say. my mane facton is orks. tell me, what is the most efficiant ork competivie list right now? ill give you a hint, its nothin but infantry.

these guys that made kill team coulve taken the time to balance the pts to allow vehicles, to allow hvy power armor, to allow cutsodes. maybe they shouldve waited to release killteam and instead release codex orks and spacewolves instead.

one kilakan in a 2000pt list is worthless, just another bucket in the crowd of buckets. in killteam a killakan is a named character that has influence. he can turn the tide of the battle.

seeing a gunfight/fistfight between a few dudes is a dime a dozen in almost any form of media. when was the last time you saw infantry supported by a car sized robot? (the last time i saw that was maybe a Michel bay film). what you are satisfied with is something ive seen many times before. straight forward and boring. what i want to play has variety, has infantry, war buggies, centurions, terminators,bloodcrushers , wraithguard, crisis suits, sentinels, ogryn,tyrant guard,stormboyz,venoms and anything around 10 wounds.

what you want to play is a man sized dude shooting at another maybe taller dude, mixed with some stabbing.

geargutz wrote:


these guys could've done alot of things, but in the end they seem to only want to rerelease shadowwar. im not a fan of shadow war, im not a fan of necromunda.
i played killteam that had options back in the day. what i see disappoints me. if your satisfied with playing yet another necromunda game then good for you.
maybe im a minority here. but my viewpoint of 40k has vehicles in it, has bikers in it, has meganobz in it. anything that is yet another infantry combat game is yet another disappointment.

One (1) release of GW kill team had the option for vehicles.
Originally, killteam (as released in 4th ed rulebook) had one player as the killteam and another commanding goons for them to kill. No vehicles.
In 5th ed it was just a special mission, not a supplement.
In 6th and 7th, KT did allow vehicles and this was marketed as a way to shift troops+vehicle bundles.

Heralds of Ruin added vehicles to their main rules as a supplement. The problem with HOR was that at 250+ points (to accommodate terminator squads etc) you were dealing with a small army at that point. Kill team was now KillPlatoon for guard and KillMob for Orks.
HoR is a labour of love but it is bloated beyond balance and recognition.

This killteam has substantially stripped down the points to 100 from the usual 200, returning the focus to squad v squad combat. You are right - this does cover the same ground as shadowwar- but it a more sustained way that should have longevity- SW:A was a flash in the pan release to a market crying out for 40k skirmish.

I recommend you try some small scale 40k, like [b]combat patrol[/b] to scratch your need to shoehorn vehicles into small scale games. The advantage is you don't have to learn a new ruleset- you can forge ahead with the current rulebook, with sensible restrictions on unit types and vehicle/monster wounds that you set.


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geargutz wrote:
in killteam a killakan is a named character that has influence. he can turn the tide of the battle.

seeing a gunfight/fistfight between a few dudes is a dime a dozen in almost any form of media. when was the last time you saw infantry supported by a car sized robot? (the last time i saw that was maybe a Michel bay film). what you are satisfied with is something ive seen many times before. straight forward and boring. what i want to play has variety, has infantry, war buggies, centurions, terminators,bloodcrushers , wraithguard, crisis suits, sentinels, ogryn,tyrant guard,stormboyz,venoms and anything around 10 wounds.

In kill team the implication is that the attacker has bypassed the Titans, knights and main battletanks on the frontline (by virtue of being a small unit of 10 or less) in order to strike at the vulnerabilities beyond them..

Giant stompy robots and diesel belching warbuggies don't sound very covert. Maybe what you are looking for is a game called 'Kill horde' , a game where a mess of heavily armored warriors drive/stomp down the ramp of a transport shuttle (that is too small to accommodate anything larger than a dread or rhino)directly into combat with the defenders of a facility (that is too strategically unimportant to be guarded by anything larger than a dread or rhino.)

Stux wrote:

It just sounds like you want it to be a different game, which is fine, no game is for everyone. But it seems most people are happy with the scope that GW have decided this time.

Yep.

geargutz wrote:
im not a fan of shadow war, im not a fan of necromunda.

Sounds like squad-level skirmish games aren't your bag, then.

geargutz wrote:
maybe im a minority here.

Certainly looks like it.

geargutz wrote:
but my viewpoint of 40k has vehicles in it, has bikers in it, has meganobz in it. anything that is yet another infantry combat game is yet another disappointment.

Hm, if only there were some sort of game out there that contained this stuff. Hmmm. HMMMMM.

Might be worth you checking out the updated Combat Patrol rules the WHW events guys put together. It seems to tick most of the boxes of what you're after. https://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/Warhammer-40000-Combat-Patrol-FINAL-v.2.pdf

 =Angel= wrote:

In kill team the implication is that the attacker has bypassed the Titans, knights and main battletanks on the frontline (by virtue of being a small unit of 10 or less) in order to strike at the vulnerabilities beyond them..

Giant stompy robots and diesel belching warbuggies don't sound very covert. Maybe what you are looking for is a game called 'Kill horde' , a game where a mess of heavily armored warriors drive/stomp down the ramp of a transport shuttle (that is too small to accommodate anything larger than a dread or rhino)directly into combat with the defenders of a facility (that is too strategically unimportant to be guarded by anything larger than a dread or rhino.)

hmm, i would agree with you if these same guys were fighting in close quarters, hallway connecting hallway conecting small room.

but nope, what weve seen as marketed takes place between buildings. there's plenty of space.

horay! you got past the stompa. but if you think your spacemarines are safe from wraiths,obliterators,or heavy weapons team, you are sorely mistaken.


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 Nazrak wrote:

Hm, if only there were some sort of game out there that contained this stuff. Hmmm. HMMMMM.

Might be worth you checking out the updated Combat Patrol rules the WHW events guys put together. It seems to tick most of the boxes of what you're after. https://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/Warhammer-40000-Combat-Patrol-FINAL-v.2.pdf

lets see here. when was this posted...august 2017? that is at least a year old.
i play orks, my kilakans are very overpriced, if i fought a codex eldar list with this ruleset i would not be anymore satisfied then when i play normal 40k.

why am i giving killteam so much shade? its the new thing, it has modified points, it will be popular,and thus easier to get games for and with better balance then what im used to...but it doesnt have much variety. so little is included from all factions, even if its just infantry only, where are the kroot?

Dismissing something that’s less than a year old due to perceived issues with one specific faction is daft. Also, there’ll be an Ork codex soon and hopefully that will resolve some of the costing issues we have.

Expecting GW to create a whole new game just to solve a problem in 40K that’s got a likely solution already on the horizon is a pretty sure-fire road to disappointment, I’d say.

HoR is still doing KillTeam:
http://heralds-of-ruin.blogspot.com/p/kill-team-rules.html

That sounds more what you're looking for.

CWE, for instance, can take 1 Missile Launcher *or* Brightlance (and not on a Reaper - they aren't in the game). They can also take, I believe, up to 2 MeltaGuns. That's as much anti-tank as they can take. No Plas (outside of a StarCannon instead of an ML or BL). No other anti-vehicle. Nothing but Shuriken and swords. How would they take on a vehicle?

I mean, I might ask a local if they want to try a KillTeam with a Vyper some day. Or do a custom scenario where someone's Killteam encounters a WarWalker and need to silence it. Or a Whirlwind (with an opposing Marine force defending it, and the WW putting all shots downrange - that sounds like an amazing game!). But the rules as written don't handle vehicles well.

That said, the rules are extremely limited. Like, moreso than even the same units in 40k (no Powerswords for CWE). I may try to get some of the locals to give HoR a try if GW's KillTeam doesn't impress.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Ah well no - We don't have Veterans in the game - well yes you can roll them on our background chart but that's just for fun, no it doesn't actually make them veterans, Oh and sorry no close combat weapons, nope no 2 pistols.... a Medic - wll no you would need to be a Beastman to do that!

They are Veterans, thats why they have specialist skills.....

Just because they are not the exact unit from 40k doesnt mean that they can't be veterans of combat. Theyre different rulesets. Think of 40k Veterans as Veteran veterans lol. When they get to lvel 3-4 I imagine their combat abilities would be similar to the 40k Veteran unit (both fluff and rules-wise, taking all the re-rolls etc into account against the 40ks 3+BS)

If it reallly bothers you that much play open play/narrative. There are also, atm, no Guard Veteran models. They removed the 'veteran' units of Kabalites and Wyches a while ago if I remember correctly in 40k too

 Mr Morden wrote:
Ok I'll use a few Aspect Warriors - mainly Scorpions sneaking behind the enemy lines like they do in the stories.

Ah well no actually - sneaky elder are Scouts - and well - oh yeah Guardians with Grav platforms - yeah sneaky.

Rangers.....

Mr Morden wrote:No bothered about lack of vehicles more concerned with all the other issues

Lack of customisation despite the assertion that the reason to not use some factions was lack of plastic and hence customisation.
Poor choice of units available to some factions
Factions not even included

I won't lie, there's some things that are problems with Kill Team. I'm sure that some things could be added that wouldn't affect the "balance" too much.

However, it's clearly a design intention that models with 2+ saves or a movement over 8" are banned. Maybe they'll come later, but for now, they're excluded for the same reason vehicles are - because they're not the intended units to be fielded.

As for Factions not being included, there's only about three which should have a presence, and one of those three has a good reason why it's been held back. Custodes have a 2+ save, so not wanted. Inquisition and Sisters of Silence probably could be taken. Sisters of Battle are being held off because they're awaiting new kits soon. The fact they're doing this fills me with some hope that the Sisters will get some new units and stuff when they get revamped.

Kill Team isn't about vehicles. It's about infantry

Is it? What is the limit to Infantry - do we (as apparently will be the case) include Giant Wolf Marines riding Wolves?

Thunderwolves don't exist yet. Again, if the game expands to encompass them, then clearly my statement will be outdated, but currently, the game is about Infantry.

Tyranid Warriors, Steatlh Suits and Lictors are not standard infantry.

They're Infantry though, unlike Bikes and Vehicles. Quite clearly infantry models.

Where is the ability to make those Elite special teams that GW stated was the point of the game

Anything can be elite if you want it to be. Give it cool fluff, and then you have an elite crack team.

Oh, you mean rules? That's what the specialisations are for!

Cool I'll make some Guard Veterans - Catachans and Ork Hunters with close combat weapons with a medic and a couple of hardened gunmen, say one with a couple of pistols she has acquired

Ah well no - We don't have Veterans in the game - well yes you can roll them on our background chart but that's just for fun, no it doesn't actually make them veterans, Oh and sorry no close combat weapons, nope no 2 pistols.... a Medic - wll no you would need to be a Beastman to do that!

You can absolutely make people Veterans. Take the Veteran specialisation. Other than that, what is the difference between a Veteran and normal Guardsman? +1 BS? If it matters that much, take the Sniper specialisation.

As for wargear, that's a shame, agreed.

but er...... hey you can use this standard Cadian squad - or use your Catachans and pretend that they are Cadians - cos reasons.

There's no in-game difference between Cadians and Catachans in the game, as far as I've seen. Your choice of models.

Nothing's stopping you converting up some kickass Catachan Ork Hunters.

Ok I'll use a few Aspect Warriors - mainly Scorpions sneaking behind the enemy lines like they do in the stories.

Agreed, Scorpions should be present.

Ah well no actually - sneaky elder are Scouts - and well - oh yeah Guardians with Grav platforms - yeah sneaky.

Why wouldn't a grav platform be sneaky? It's man portable, and can hover.

geargutz wrote:"just play regular 40k, it has vehicles"

easy for some to say. my mane facton is orks. tell me, what is the most efficiant ork competivie list right now? ill give you a hint, its nothin but infantry.

Nothing's stopping you playing that. Especially at lower points and a smaller board, with less heavy weapon saturation, your vehicles will last longer.

these guys that made kill team coulve taken the time to balance the pts to allow vehicles, to allow hvy power armor, to allow cutsodes. maybe they shouldve waited to release killteam and instead release codex orks and spacewolves instead.

Or, for the rest of us who'd rather have Kill Team (and would probably get them more money), Kill Team coming earlier is good!
Orks should have had their Codex a long time ago, though.

Kill Team had no responsibility to balance vehicles, because they're clearly not the priority for the game. If you want vehicles, it's not worth looking in the gametype which is pretty much tailored to be non-vehicle. Would you expect to see infantry in Battlefleet Gothic or Titanicus?

one kilakan in a 2000pt list is worthless, just another bucket in the crowd of buckets. in killteam a killakan is a named character that has influence. he can turn the tide of the battle.

So play a 300 point game. Then your Killa Kan is a character with influence. Hell, you can take multiple!

seeing a gunfight/fistfight between a few dudes is a dime a dozen in almost any form of media. when was the last time you saw infantry supported by a car sized robot? (the last time i saw that was maybe a Michel bay film). what you are satisfied with is something ive seen many times before. straight forward and boring. what i want to play has variety, has infantry, war buggies, centurions, terminators,bloodcrushers , wraithguard, crisis suits, sentinels, ogryn,tyrant guard,stormboyz,venoms and anything around 10 wounds.

If you play a 500 point game of 40k, you can have this.

It sounds like you just want to play small games of 40k with lots of terrain. Nothing's stopping you!

what you want to play is a man sized dude shooting at another maybe taller dude, mixed with some stabbing.

If you don't like the sound of it, play something else. Let the people who want infantry combat play Kill Team. You still have normal 40k to play.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

geargutz wrote:
hmm, i would agree with you if these same guys were fighting in close quarters, hallway connecting hallway conecting small room.

but nope, what weve seen as marketed takes place between buildings. there's plenty of space.

horay! you got past the stompa. but if you think your spacemarines are safe from wraiths,obliterators,or heavy weapons team, you are sorely mistaken.

So play a small game of 40k in the "place between buildings".

 Nazrak wrote:

Hm, if only there were some sort of game out there that contained this stuff. Hmmm. HMMMMM.

Might be worth you checking out the updated Combat Patrol rules the WHW events guys put together. It seems to tick most of the boxes of what you're after. https://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/Warhammer-40000-Combat-Patrol-FINAL-v.2.pdf

lets see here. when was this posted...august 2017? that is at least a year old.
i play orks, my kilakans are very overpriced, if i fought a codex eldar list with this ruleset i would not be anymore satisfied then when i play normal 40k.

Nothing's stopping you adapting those rules (which aren't even that outdated, it's not like you're taking something from Rogue Trader).

why am i giving killteam so much shade? its the new thing, it has modified points, it will be popular,and thus easier to get games for and with better balance then what im used to...but it doesnt have much variety. so little is included from all factions, even if its just infantry only, where are the kroot?

Not to beat a dead horse, but you're expecting too much from a game clearly not marketed towards you.

Kill Team won't fix your Orks. The Codex might. Kill Team is focused on infantry squad combat. 40k can cover anything from a small patrol with various assets to full scale company level combat. A 500 point game with lots of terrain will fulfil what you want just fine.

Yes, there are some units which probably should be in Kill Team. Vehicles are not one of them.

The hot takes on Kill Team have been BONKERS

I’d like to see more infantry choices in Kill team (aspects, terminators, etc.), but I’m fine with no vehicles.

Now, I wouldn’t mind if you could fit some light vehicles into the game (bikes, sentinels, robots) as maybe a 0-1 option, as long as you could still bring 3 or more troops along with it. Still limiting to 100 points, though.

I’d also be willing to consider heavier vehicles - dreadnought, rhino, chimera and someshuch as a sort of super heavy for one-off “Kill the beast” sort of scenarios. Again, still restricting to 100 or perhaps slightly more points, and in some cases with heavy restrictions (perhaps the vehicle isn’t started yet and the crew has to turn her on, or it’s lost its primary weapon system and just has the sponsons or pintle weapons - or maybe even the enemy has to sap the Deathstrike before it launches...).

I'm actually fine with it being all infantry and limiting options at least initially. The 200 point 6th edition version was very open and that was fun but it lead to some very broken combos. Between a new emphasis on terrain, multiple floors and intense one on one combat this version looks very promising.

"play something else"
always seems like a troll post when someone says this.

killteam for me was 10 ork boyz, 1 bigmek meganob, 2 killakanz. started my love/hate relationship with this hobby.

"play something else"

i started the game at the end of 6th edition. i was so excited to play with my new shiny 7th edition codex. i played it, i did a tournament and my dreddmob got stomped

"play something else"

the decurians were all the rage, they took formations to the next step. "just wait for waaagh ghazkull, it will have great formations and decurians as well", it came out, wasnt great, then the reprinted one came out....i was the 1st time i actualy wrote to GW with a complaint

"play something else"

8th edition is here, im so excited, i love most of the changes with the core rules. loved how they handled vehicles. big names in the 40k community were singing praises to the orks "cough-reese-couph". took the 8th edition dreddmob to a tournament.....it didnt go well

"play something else"

chapter approved comes out, it changed very little (a far cry from the knockout that was generals handbook). bad strategems/warlord traits/ points changes

"play something else"

8th edition has has now been out a year, many factions got their codexes. they just announced orks and spacewolves will be next. at this point im more tired of waiting then hopefull.

"play something else"

"hey,this is gw, were are sneak peeking some cool knew minis..its gsc".

"play something else"

warhammer facebook has a simple battle report that shows how awesome the knight castelen is as it rips through 13 killa kans.

"play something else"

killteam anounced. man this brings back memories of what brought me into this hoby. whats it going to be like?
no killkans, no meganobz, no stormboys, no bikers...

"play something else"

"your codex is right around the corner, stop complaining, if your not happy with it then...play something else"

i look at over 10,000 pts of orks collecting dust on my shelf. everything is converted to be unique, to be orky,

there's no turning back. i cant sell what i love. there has been very little hope for my lot in the community.

Aren't they planning on bringing out expansions for the new Kill Team? maybe they'll add in something for vehicles with low wound count?

You guys realizing you're responding to a troll thread right? I don't think I've seen him give a single answer that wasn't insulting or condescending despite the mountains of evidence and experience presented to him.

Doesn't that apply to half the posters on DakkaDakka?

geargutz wrote:
i look at over 10,000 pts of orks collecting dust on my shelf. everything is converted to be unique, to be orky,

there's no turning back. i cant sell what i love. there has been very little hope for my lot in the community.

You've absolutely missed my point.

When I say "play something else", I mean, "play anything except Kill Team". That includes regular 40k, which is far more what you're after. You can have all the Kans, the Meganobz, the Stormboyz, the Bikers, anything you want.
You think Orks have bad rules? I'm inclined to agree, but that's got nothing to do with Kill Team. So, your issue with Orks, which is a perfectly valid one, doesn't explain why you're expecting Kill Team to fix it.

Why won't that work for you?

Or look into some fan-made KillTeams. Some of them *do* include light vehicles, like you want.

Every time I read something I don't like about GW's KillTeam, it reminds me of what I like about another.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
You guys realizing you're responding to a troll thread right? I don't think I've seen him give a single answer that wasn't insulting or condescending despite the mountains of evidence and experience presented to him.

hmm, what makes a troll thread?
is it something i said?
to not be a troll thread do i have to immediately agree with the 1st person who disagrees with me?
insulting or condescending...you can list the times i have been in this thread if you want to support your claim.
this is my genuine viewpoint, it seems many disagree with me, and some who agree with some things ive said. does that make it a troll thread?

so far there has been a small to no amount of vitriol or bitter words in this thread. those who disagree with me have been fair in their arguments and their opinions as far as i can tell.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

geargutz wrote:
i look at over 10,000 pts of orks collecting dust on my shelf. everything is converted to be unique, to be orky,

there's no turning back. i cant sell what i love. there has been very little hope for my lot in the community.

You've absolutely missed my point.

When I say "play something else", I mean, "play anything except Kill Team". That includes regular 40k, which is far more what you're after. You can have all the Kans, the Meganobz, the Stormboyz, the Bikers, anything you want.
You think Orks have bad rules? I'm inclined to agree, but that's got nothing to do with Kill Team. So, your issue with Orks, which is a perfectly valid one, doesn't explain why you're expecting Kill Team to fix it.

Why won't that work for you?

i wasn't only responding to you, but fair enough, you just meant something else to play in "40k", that post was more or less me venting about the concept of "just play something else".

though you say to just play normal 40k "You can have all the Kans, the Meganobz, the Stormboyz, the Bikers, anything you want."
the issue with that is how bad all those units are in normal 40k. i would liek to have a normal pickup game with those models and not expect to be curb stomped.

maybe the codex will come out and all will be balanced and i will eat my words, but for now killteam is hogging all the spotlight.

ill blame nostalgia, with my original experiences with killteam im not happy about current killteam, and since there has been no official rumors or sneak peaks of codex orks, killteam is now my punching bag of worn patience and frustration. maybe ive projected a little too much onto the current release of killteam, but not everyone has completely disagreed with me, and that soothes my nerves some.

geargutz wrote:
"play something else"
always seems like a troll post when someone says this.

killteam for me was 10 ork boyz, 1 bigmek meganob, 2 killakanz. started my love/hate relationship with this hobby.

"play something else"

What you played was combat patrol. Kill team was always just infantry.

In 6th and 7th combat patrol was renamed kill team.

Lots of us are excited for kill team and happy that it's not combat patrol.

HoR have exactly the ruleset you want.

geargutz wrote:
i wasn't only responding to you, but fair enough, you just meant something else to play in "40k", that post was more or less me venting about the concept of "just play something else".

Nah, fair enough, I thought you just meant me!

though you say to just play normal 40k "You can have all the Kans, the Meganobz, the Stormboyz, the Bikers, anything you want."
the issue with that is how bad all those units are in normal 40k. i would liek to have a normal pickup game with those models and not expect to be curb stomped.

Unfortunately, that's a 40k issue, and not a Kill Team one. Just being in Kill Team wouldn't fix those units, it would just be throwing them into an environment where the other units are really not designed to fight them.
It'd be like taking a bolter into a contest where only melee weapons are used. Sure, the bolter's not great, but when it's not being threatened by other ranged weapons, it's great by design.

maybe the codex will come out and all will be balanced and i will eat my words, but for now killteam is hogging all the spotlight.

It just came out? It's hardly like it's been dominating things for over a year. When Orks get released, I fully expect a massive wave of Ork related material to dominate Games Workshop's media feeds.

It's like complaining that AoS got all the attention when it was first released - because it's a new thing, and new game system to boot.

ill blame nostalgia, with my original experiences with killteam im not happy about current killteam, and since there has been no official rumors or sneak peaks of codex orks, killteam is now my punching bag of worn patience and frustration. maybe ive projected a little too much onto the current release of killteam, but not everyone has completely disagreed with me, and that soothes my nerves some.

I think you are right - Kill Team wasn't made for everyone, and it's not at fault for doing that.

It's being designed as a more balanced game, which from my personal experiences, I'd vastly prefer. Are there things I'd change with it, things I'd add? Sure, but if I want to, I'll ask my opponents if we can houserule units and rules in. As long as unkilleable units and imbalanced matchups are kept out, I'll be happy.

As for Orks, I hate to say it, but hang on to your teef - Space Wolves have also had nothing lately, and most Codexes haven't had great sneak peeks prior to release. As per usual, there are some armies who need to wait longer (hang in there Sisters!), but you'll get your Codex soon. If it'll be good, I can't say, but I can more confidently say that if you can organise some low points level games with plenty of terrain, you'll have a very enjoyable time even without it.

Very happy there are no vehicles. Happy in general to be playing with a relatively small pool of models, as it will be theoretically "easier" to balance things against each other that way.

Vehicles would work perfectly well as terrain in kill team.

I agree with some of the points here - vehicles would screw up the balance.

However, on the flip side, it would have been cool to allow alternate point counts to allow for vehicles. It could work just fine - you'd just need a more detailed system. Maybe the ability to target subsystems, weapons, bring back facings for vehicles, etc.

However, a counter to my own argument is: "wow that looks too complex". As someone who enjoys a few niche tabletop games with much much better rules than 40k - this is a common complaint. Anything more complex than candyland seems to push away people who are even moderately interested in starting a game. I'd really like it if GW was open to doing 2 sets of rules. Basic and advanced. Basic rulesets could draw in new fans or make for faster games, while advanced rules would allow for greater tactical depth.

Snark not directed at anyone in particular, but in general, there are players convinced they could design the game much better than GW could. They could just write some homebrewed rules for vehicles and whatever else they want, then play with those rules. Everyone else not so inclined will vote with their wallet, so to speak, and buy the game if they like it, and will not if they don't.

We get what we get, y'know? We can wish for things all day long, but that won't change what's in the rulebook.

I'm not enthused with kill team rules. Tyranid Warriors are 20 points and are necessary for synapse. Essentially you have 80 points plus a base kit warrior. The second that warrior dies your dudes go insane.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
there are players convinced they could design the game much better than GW could. They could just write some homebrewed rules for vehicles and whatever else they want, then play with those rules. Everyone else not so inclined will vote with their wallet, so to speak, and buy the game if they like it, and will not if they don't.

I'm inclined to believe some people here could write better rules than GW. However, i wouldn't argue they'd sell better than GW's rulesets. GW geared 8th towards being easy to understand and fast at the cost of pretty much everything else.

Homebrew rules are fine, but it's kind of a bad argument 'you can just make homebrew rules'. Homebrew rules aren't vetted by 1000s of people playing, are prone to bias and personal preference and most importantly, aren't going to be accepted by the majority of players you will find. If GW had either better rules or a 2nd set of advanced rules - they'd have much more backing than whatever mad scribbles some guy from your local shop scrawled on a napkin.

There are already some very well done alternate rules, esp for alternating activations for 40k, but nobody uses them. The set I've seen went out of it's way to in no way disrupt the base 40k game. It *only* changed activations - so in theory shouldn't change anything besides 1st turn game-enders. Still, I've never seen anyone use the set. If GW stuck it in a chapter approved as 'advanced/optional', it would likely become the standard. That official backing is everything.

That is true, but it isn't the majority of players clamoring for these additional rules. It's a few people. If those few people want to play the game differently, they can. If they have to find like-minded or permissive opponents to do so with, that's on them to figure out. Even discussing it is sort of an exercise in futility, but that isn't stopping us, I suppose.

Some of it happens/people get that way because:

"Bob" wants to run a Biel-Tan Aspect Host led by Asurmen in games, and finds that it fails hard to a lot of list.

"Mike", meanwhile, wants to run PA Marines, and usually faces Sam.

"Sam" runs Alaitoc Spears/Reapers/Rangers and friends, using a list cribbed from recent top-10 standings.

"Mike" thinks the rules should change so his Battle Company doesn't autolose to "Sam".

"Bob" doesn't want "Mike"'s changes, as it means he auto-loses to every Marine list ever.

"Sam" doesn't see what the big problem is.

So we have 3 people, and 3 different "ideal" rulessets.

 Marmatag wrote:
I'm not enthused with kill team rules. Tyranid Warriors are 20 points and are necessary for synapse. Essentially you have 80 points plus a base kit warrior. The second that warrior dies your dudes go insane.

Warriors are one of the toughest models available in the game and it's easy to make it very difficult to hit the warrior in the first place with the new cover rules.

Were you expecting tyranids to not have to deal with synapse?

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Snark not directed at anyone in particular, but in general, there are players convinced they could design the game much better than GW could. They could just write some homebrewed rules for vehicles and whatever else they want, then play with those rules. Everyone else not so inclined will vote with their wallet, so to speak, and buy the game if they like it, and will not if they don't.

We get what we get, y'know? We can wish for things all day long, but that won't change what's in the rulebook.

Neither will shrugging our shoulders and purchasing rules or models we're not crazy about. It's baffling to read post after post by people who have issues with a game, then go out and purchase the thing they're criticizing, then get upset about the thing after they buy it, and completely miss the connection between that thing making a profit and rules or models they don't like.

For the OP- I think it might be okay for light vehicles in an expansion down the line, but I think it's best for Kill Team to focus on infantry. Now, that focus could be deeper, but that's a different discussion.