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Leave the vehicles at home. With no vehicles and the largest base size at 40mm, that means you can bring the terrain closer together and have tight corridor fights. Add vehicles in there, and you suddenly have to spread the terrain out more, which defeats the whole purpose of an elite squad of troops running from cover to cover to combat their foes.

You want vehicles? Go play 40k, you know, that huge game where you can take all of the units that people are complaining aren't in Kill Team.

Blastaar wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Snark not directed at anyone in particular, but in general, there are players convinced they could design the game much better than GW could. They could just write some homebrewed rules for vehicles and whatever else they want, then play with those rules. Everyone else not so inclined will vote with their wallet, so to speak, and buy the game if they like it, and will not if they don't.

We get what we get, y'know? We can wish for things all day long, but that won't change what's in the rulebook.

Neither will shrugging our shoulders and purchasing rules or models we're not crazy about. It's baffling to read post after post by people who have issues with a game, then go out and purchase the thing they're criticizing, then get upset about the thing after they buy it, and completely miss the connection between that thing making a profit and rules or models they don't like.

For the OP- I think it might be okay for light vehicles in an expansion down the line, but I think it's best for Kill Team to focus on infantry. Now, that focus could be deeper, but that's a different discussion.

Exactly. Someone who isn’t happy with the game shouldn’t buy it. You’ve hit the nail on the head.

Or you could possibly even just stick to HoR if you want vehicles. Or go over to Proposed Rules and start a Kill Team discussion about how you'd implement vehicles. You have options other than "grumble on the Internet and then play the GW rules anyway" or "quit in a huff", you know.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Or you could possibly even just stick to HoR if you want vehicles. Or go over to Proposed Rules and start a Kill Team discussion about how you'd implement vehicles. You have options other than "grumble on the Internet and then play the GW rules anyway" or "quit in a huff", you know.

I'm excited to see what HoR does. This new version of Kill Team looks fun, but does not have as much freedom as previous versions.

While I feel the same way with regards to not really being excited for things that don't involve tanks, I don't think KT is the platform for vehicles.

Tanks are just not part of or suited for the operations Kill Team represents.

The Kill Team supplement for 7th edition had a few variant scenarios to mix things up. One was that one side takes a Big Thing not normally allowed by the rules (a powerful character, a Monstrous Creature, a vehicle, etc) and the other side gets a standard Kill Team with double the usual number of Specialists.

I played this a couple of times. Firstly, I took a Vindicare Assassin against a Space Marine Tactical Squad - the Assassin won handily, even when the Marines charged him - he just had to kill them one at a time with his pistol, which only slowed him down a little. The other time was when I took an Imperial Guard team against a Carnifex. I kitted a couple of guys out with a melta bomb, a demo charge and a Demolitions specialist. The plan was that they'd attack in pairs - one guy had a skill that made it much harder for the Carnifex to hit in melee, then the other guy would use the melta bomb on it. Sadly, the first guy falied his charge, and the guy with the bomb got eaten. Eventually, I just ran away from it a pelted it with krak grenades until it finally died, with two Guardsmen remaining.

There will be nothing stopping you doing something like this when the game is released - the Kill Team datasheets are sufficiently similar to 40k that you should be able to transfer them from 40k to Kill Team. With multi-crewed vehicles, I'd suggest giving each crew station its own separate activation For a Leman Russ, that would mean the main gun, each sponson, the hull weapon (fired by the driver) and the pintle-mounted weapon (fired by the commander) would each fire separately during the Shooting phase. Also, I don't know if Kill Team uses firing arcs - if so, I'd consider what the fire arcs of each weapon system should be (for a Leman Russ, the main weapon is clearly a turret 360degree fire arc, the sponsons are 90degrees from the midline to either side and the hull weapon is 90degrees centred on the midline).

Also, I wouldn't give the vehicles any "benefits" when setting up terrain - if it gets hemmed in by buildings and rubble, then good - that's precisely the situation it'd be in if it comes under attack by a single infantry squad.

Personal Kill Team to me is what Kill Team is, a small specialized team fighting other somewhere. So I am looking forward to it and having less models to walk around and carry on the train

Maybe in the future they'll release a expansion for small vehicles or walkers.

Vehicles in a game where you can target the anti-tank weapon holders separately seems like a pretty bad idea!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Vehicles in a game where you can target the anti-tank weapon holders separately seems like a pretty bad idea!

Exactly. You have limited numbers of meltaguns and by the time you add in negative modifiers they need 3-4 turns of shooting to kill a dread. There is no way they're going to survive that long.

Imagine a CWE team with 2 Fusions (Meltaguns) on Guardsmen bodies and a Brightlance (think Lascannon) on a pair of Marine bodies.

How well would that handle a Dread or Rhino or Killa Kan?

That's all-in on anti-tank weaponry for a CWE team. As in, once those 3 models are dead, it's just small arms. And that means no other heavy/special weapons. Plus, no CC weapons above S4.

How do you balance against that?

In 7th KT's I used a list with three armored sentinels. Even with just the basic multi-lasers, they tended to stomp people. They were just too hard to kill, and with the ability to target the weapons that could actually hurt them, it was far too easy to set up no-win situations for my opponents.

That list got retired, except for "big shots" games.

Not sure if a game with 5 dudes has a point.
A vehicle would add another dimension.

It sounds like you want Orks to have more build variety - which is completely unrelated to Kill Team.
The Codex is your best bet for that.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Not sure if a game with 5 dudes has a point.
A vehicle would add another dimension.

I've played 4v4 Battletech for years. Lower scope means more granularity. I like that I can get people into the game by having them buy/ buying them a single box and they're up and running. By the time you hit vehicles you're running a game of a completely different scope and would need completely different design philosophies. Should a dedicated game exist that's around Combat Patrol in scope exist? Possibly. However this feels like complaining an orange isn't an apple and being annoyed when people say they still want an orange instead of an apple.

To be honest the game all look fine, and plays well too, I did have 2 demo games in store using my heretic astartes team against my friends death guard plaguemarine team, and naturally I got wrecked due to toughness 5, disgustingly resilient and then the extra layer of fleshwound saves..


Vehicles is an obvious no go, even terminators couldn't be made to work given the current rules, I found plague marines as hard as cataphracti terminators to put down even shooting them with plasma, heavy bolters and power fists..


What I would say is they've really skimped out on the units most factions can choose, and haven't made up for it by allowing the more restricted one to choose (pay points) for better gear. My chaos space marine list for example is restricted to being kitted out just the same as they can be in 8th, and unless I take cultists, which Id really rather not they have no chance to even be slightly competitive against certain factions. I like that Stealthsuits, primaris, plague marines, and tyrand warriors are in it, but they really shouldn't have been, if possessed, chosen or havoks aren't, it's extremely biased to certain factions and limiting the scope hugely for potential play styles.. going to actually write GW an email and whinge at them, not that it'll make 1 I-fething-ota of a difference

geargutz wrote:

what you want to play is a man sized dude shooting at another maybe taller dude, mixed with some stabbing.

Correct. What you want to play is combat patrol or HoR.

kill team is meant to be a faster paced game that's suppose to be accessible for everyone, adding vehicles now diminishes that part. Now you're talking about a vehicle that you will probably have to magnetize because no one wants to buy more than one. You're talking about painting a vehicle now and spending more money. If you include vehicles you'll have to make the play area bigger that makes more terrain must. It's suppose to be a small scale infantry battle, adding vehicles makes it less of a simple fast game.

As someone who ran a rhino in 7th edition kill team, it does fundamentally change the flavour of the game and, frequently, spits on the idea of what Kill Teams is supposed to be about.

It was even worse back then because rhinos still had fire points, but players rarely took anti-vehicle weapons at all. I can't say it completely broke the game because on at least a few occasions I played against someone who had an effective direct counter to it, but against most it was brutal, often down right unfair.

If I want vehicles, I'll play a normal game of 40K. I for one am glad that Kill Team is the way that it is. Even if I want to spam something, it's at least reasonable here. Much better than buying something like 4 Stormravens.

I think vehicles would be better as stratagems. Spend some CP to get a 1 time attack or other effects. Would represent assets in the area that aren't committed to the mission, but could be temporarily diverted to assist the Kill Team.

I played with skimmers back in the 6th/ 7th edition and it breaks the flow and feel of the game. Not to mention it makes the game much harder to balance.

SirWeeble wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
there are players convinced they could design the game much better than GW could. They could just write some homebrewed rules for vehicles and whatever else they want, then play with those rules. Everyone else not so inclined will vote with their wallet, so to speak, and buy the game if they like it, and will not if they don't.

I'm inclined to believe some people here could write better rules than GW. However, i wouldn't argue they'd sell better than GW's rulesets. GW geared 8th towards being easy to understand and fast at the cost of pretty much everything else.

Homebrew rules are fine, but it's kind of a bad argument 'you can just make homebrew rules'. Homebrew rules aren't vetted by 1000s of people playing, are prone to bias and personal preference and most importantly, aren't going to be accepted by the majority of players you will find. If GW had either better rules or a 2nd set of advanced rules - they'd have much more backing than whatever mad scribbles some guy from your local shop scrawled on a napkin.

There are already some very well done alternate rules, esp for alternating activations for 40k, but nobody uses them. The set I've seen went out of it's way to in no way disrupt the base 40k game. It *only* changed activations - so in theory shouldn't change anything besides 1st turn game-enders. Still, I've never seen anyone use the set. If GW stuck it in a chapter approved as 'advanced/optional', it would likely become the standard. That official backing is everything.

Elbows here uses AA 40k. I did a similar spin on it too. I also used that for BFG and so forth. It's relatively uncommon, yes, but not entirely nonextinct and with good company makes for excellent games.

Regarding the topic, as someone who was around during the initial 4th ed. Kill Team, I for one am very glad the initial base rules stick to what it wants to be: a small scale infantry vs. infantry game. Of course, the mook system back then did differ from this and so forth, but this is fine too. As a fervent proponent of "your game, own it" I'd also suggest trying those cool dudes like kans and terminators out with your group if they'd like that, but not getting too hung up on it if they don't because that is not what this game as such is supposed to be anyway. It's the Dirty Dozen all over in great neon letters, with bad enough dudes whacking other bad enough dudes into the dust somewhere far from actual massed battles. Having nothing larger than a pile of grenades to get you by is part of the charm.

Kill Team is 100 points?

Sounds like I need to bring in 25 Guardsman.

Bharring wrote:
Imagine a CWE team with 2 Fusions (Meltaguns) on Guardsmen bodies and a Brightlance (think Lascannon) on a pair of Marine bodies.

How well would that handle a Dread or Rhino or Killa Kan?

That's all-in on anti-tank weaponry for a CWE team. As in, once those 3 models are dead, it's just small arms. And that means no other heavy/special weapons. Plus, no CC weapons above S4.

How do you balance against that?

It gets worse than that: for the Thousand Sons, the highest strength weapon available to the entire faction is the Aspiring Sorcerer's S6 force staff, while the strongest gun is the S5 soulreaper cannon. Both of which you get exactly one of in your kill team. Necrons are similarly boned with nothing stronger than the S5 gauss blaster.

Good luck killing a dreadnought with that.

fe40k wrote:
Kill Team is 100 points?

Sounds like I need to bring in 25 Guardsman.

Model limit is capped at 20, and I think your estimate of guardsman points is a little off - but send in the next wave indeed!

Guardsmen are actually 5 points in Kill Team. This may be a hint at what we can expect in Chapter Approved, but probably not since points are very different across the board, and radically so when it comes to weapons (I doubt anyone is expecting the warpflamer to go down from 15 points to 4 in 40k).

I'd laugh if the Eldar Missile Launcher went down to 4 to match Kill Team, but the IoM Missile Launcher stayed where it was because it's not in KT IIUC (it's not in the SM kit).

I'm a little terrified, because while it seems unlikely, it doesn't seem as unlikely as it should.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

Spoiler:

Bharring wrote:
Imagine a CWE team with 2 Fusions (Meltaguns) on Guardsmen bodies and a Brightlance (think Lascannon) on a pair of Marine bodies.

How well would that handle a Dread or Rhino or Killa Kan?

That's all-in on anti-tank weaponry for a CWE team. As in, once those 3 models are dead, it's just small arms. And that means no other heavy/special weapons. Plus, no CC weapons above S4.

How do you balance against that?

It gets worse than that: for the Thousand Sons, the highest strength weapon available to the entire faction is the Aspiring Sorcerer's S6 force staff, while the strongest gun is the S5 soulreaper cannon. Both of which you get exactly one of in your kill team. Necrons are similarly boned with nothing stronger than the S5 gauss blaster.

Good luck killing a dreadnought with that.

Glad not to see vehicles in Kill Team, It's not really about that.
Thematically it'd be cool to build and model your own 'A-Team' van for your squad of elite dudes so do that. It'd always look great as terrain, an objective, for a themed mission or for occasional use against a willing opponent with some pre-balancing and permission.

The game is balanced - or at least GW attempts to have it balanced - for the 100 points mark. To include vehicles in any meaningful way is simply not possible under those coditions.

That should stop nobody to try out some housrules. Either by raising the point limits, or by designing scenarios around specific vehicles.