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One thing I've give Malcador is that he's just a human. He did some insane things while have a (sorta) normal constitution. Compared to Magnus (who is made of sugar and spice and some warp stuff stolen from chaos) and the Emperor (which who knows really). I consider that mighty impressive.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
One thing I've give Malcador is that he's just a human. He did some insane things while have a (sorta) normal constitution. Compared to Magnus (who is made of sugar and spice and some warp stuff stolen from chaos) and the Emperor (which who knows really). I consider that mighty impressive.

He also took a backhand from Lorgar like a champion, the old man is a tough bastard, especially for being 6000 years old.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Neither of those are what you'd call reliable sources. One is referencing stories and one is from the perspective of people 10'000 years after both subjects vanished.

I'd say there's definitely wiggle room until the inevitable GW novel where they spoil it.

Well that's the only evidence there is, I've given it, so the burden of proof is now on you to prove it wrong.

JamesY presents a MUCH better argument based on provable things that happen. You could learn from his example. as for proving your quotes wrong, fine I will. your proof isn't proof of power it's proof of OPINIONS. Let's take a look at each of them. first of all, you need to understand the novels are written from a third person prespective point of view, I'll get back to that where it's relevant.

but first let's examine your first quote from Faith and Fire.

"Malcador had perished thousands of years ago and no man had ever dared to try and take up his title. It was written that the sigilite was one of the most powerful psykers in creation, second only to the mental might of the Emperor."

Now I've bolded some important bits for context. this isn't a definitive statement about Malcador, this is a statement about who Malcador was, and what was written down about him.

Well who wrote that? The Emperor in his tell all biographgy titled "my buddy Malcador! the best friend I ever had"? or was it "Tim from the Malcador the Sigilate fan club"? or was it "the offical Imperial History" my guess is more likely the third one. And we all know how revisionist Imperial history is, heck we know that in most of them the traitor primarchs are written OUT of it. so yeah that doesn't prove ANYTHING.


Now let's examine the next one

Malcador, so the stories said, was second only in psychic might to
the Emperor. So unassuming in aspect, but here in the chamber with them the man exuded a serene
kind of power, quite at odds with the brash energy of a warlord primarch, but no less potent

Alrighty this is a little better. but it's still opinions. Garro has heard stories that Malcador is second only to the emperor and certainly he has a feeling that he's in his own way "in the same league as a Primarch" but there's plenty of holes in this. Consider the Legion that Nate Garro called home, the Death Guard, Mortarian HATED psykers, absolutely HATED them, and likely was no fan of Magnus the Red. So ijt's likely any stories that made magnus look good weren't exactly enchouraged, Garro also was like to be more ignorant of Psykic matters then an equivilantly ranked commander from say... the Blood Angels because of that. So we need to factor in that ignorance. basicly Garro doesn't have the qualifications to make a "X is more powerful then Y" statement we can trust as completely true. this BTW is what I mean by the relevant of third person POV, this isn't a defimnitive statement this is all how Garro perceived things.

Now that said the statement is useful simply in that it does say that word of Malcador being potentially second only to the emperor and thus more powerful then even Magnus existed as early as the Heresy.

but yeah, this is all heresay and opinion. It's not proof.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Neither of those are what you'd call reliable sources. One is referencing stories and one is from the perspective of people 10'000 years after both subjects vanished.

I'd say there's definitely wiggle room until the inevitable GW novel where they spoil it.

Well that's the only evidence there is, I've given it, so the burden of proof is now on you to prove it wrong.

JamesY presents a MUCH better argument based on provable things that happen. You could learn from his example. as for proving your quotes wrong, fine I will. your proof isn't proof of power it's proof of OPINIONS. Let's take a look at each of them. first of all, you need to understand the novels are written from a third person prespective point of view, I'll get back to that where it's relevant.

but first let's examine your first quote from Faith and Fire.

"Malcador had perished thousands of years ago and no man had ever dared to try and take up his title. It was written that the sigilite was one of the most powerful psykers in creation, second only to the mental might of the Emperor."

Now I've bolded some important bits for context. this isn't a definitive statement about Malcador, this is a statement about who Malcador was, and what was written down about him.

Well who wrote that? The Emperor in his tell all biographgy titled "my buddy Malcador! the best friend I ever had"? or was it "Tim from the Malcador the Sigilate fan club"? or was it "the offical Imperial History" my guess is more likely the third one. And we all know how revisionist Imperial history is, heck we know that in most of them the traitor primarchs are written OUT of it. so yeah that doesn't prove ANYTHING.


Now let's examine the next one

Malcador, so the stories said, was second only in psychic might to
the Emperor. So unassuming in aspect, but here in the chamber with them the man exuded a serene
kind of power, quite at odds with the brash energy of a warlord primarch, but no less potent

Alrighty this is a little better. but it's still opinions. Garro has heard stories that Malcador is second only to the emperor and certainly he has a feeling that he's in his own way "in the same league as a Primarch" but there's plenty of holes in this. Consider the Legion that Nate Garro called home, the Death Guard, Mortarian HATED psykers, absolutely HATED them, and likely was no fan of Magnus the Red. So ijt's likely any stories that made magnus look good weren't exactly enchouraged, Garro also was like to be more ignorant of Psykic matters then an equivilantly ranked commander from say... the Blood Angels because of that. So we need to factor in that ignorance. basicly Garro doesn't have the qualifications to make a "X is more powerful then Y" statement we can trust as completely true. this BTW is what I mean by the relevant of third person POV, this isn't a defimnitive statement this is all how Garro perceived things.

Now that said the statement is useful simply in that it does say that word of Malcador being potentially second only to the emperor and thus more powerful then even Magnus existed as early as the Heresy.

but yeah, this is all heresay and opinion. It's not proof.

Opinions are better than no opinion. Both you and him are just assuming that Magnus was the most powerful, where as I look for lore. Plus the second source was at the time before Magnus turned. If it was commonly thought there is possible truth to it.

I don't assume anything on this front in this case. In my case my stance is "they're both amazing psykers and god I hope black library doesn't miss out on a chance to have them go ehad to head at the siege of terra"

BrianDavion wrote:
I don't assume anything on this front in this case. In my case my stance is "they're both amazing psykers and god I hope black library doesn't miss out on a chance to have them go ehad to head at the siege of terra"

Well the other guy was. I going head to head would be amazing, that would be a story for the ages. I think it would be cool if Malcador was more powerful, less obvious, him being human and all.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I don't assume anything on this front in this case. In my case my stance is "they're both amazing psykers and god I hope black library doesn't miss out on a chance to have them go ehad to head at the siege of terra"

Well the other guy was. I going head to head would be amazing, that would be a story for the ages. I think it would be cool if Malcador was more powerful, less obvious, him being human and all.

I suspect they've each got their own strengths and are close eneugh that it'd come down to who uses it better.In short a fight between them wouldn't be about "whose more powerful" but whose cleverer, smarter, etc. or at least if they fight I HOPE thats what it comes down to. it'd be more intreasting then some DBZish "I BEAT HIM BECAUSE MY POWER LEVEL IS OVER 9000!"

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I don't assume anything on this front in this case. In my case my stance is "they're both amazing psykers and god I hope black library doesn't miss out on a chance to have them go ehad to head at the siege of terra"

Well the other guy was. I going head to head would be amazing, that would be a story for the ages. I think it would be cool if Malcador was more powerful, less obvious, him being human and all.

I suspect they've each got their own strengths and are close eneugh that it'd come down to who uses it better.In short a fight between them wouldn't be about "whose more powerful" but whose cleverer, smarter, etc. or at least if they fight I HOPE thats what it comes down to. it'd be more intreasting then some DBZish "I BEAT HIM BECAUSE MY POWER LEVEL IS OVER 9000!"

You could always use a spirit bomb.

In fairness, although I personally like to think Malcador the more powerful, phrases like "so the stories said" and "it was written that" aren't unequivocally stating that he is second only to the Emperor, there is plenty of room for inference. The ambiguity is deliberately being left open.

Well let's see:

Magnus is the third most powerful psyker in the galaxy behind The Emperor and Kairos Fateweaver

Vulkan was the strongest Primarch...we're talking strength of
100 space marines strong. All priimarchs have physical strength many times that of normal space marines

All Primarchs can regenerate from wounds that would kill even Primaris marines many times over

All primarchs are polymaths.

Basically there is only one mortal individual who is more capable than a primarch..


Batman

Magnus is the third most powerful psyker in the galaxy behind The Emperor and Kairos Fateweaver

your source? because it sure as heck seems this is debated

pm713 wrote:I thought the Titan squished him into the ground?

From what I remember, Angron could feel his hips and spine begin to give way even if his muscles and brain did not, so it was a delaying action that he could not hold indefinitely but definitely an impressive feat of strength.

pm713 wrote:

TarkinLarson wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
It's very difficult to measure. The most accurate answer is probably "as powerful as the needs of the plot demand".

Unfortunately, having listened to the audio books for the HH1-3, Flight of Eisenstein, and Fulgrim, this is very clearly the way it's goes.

When a primarch turns up I start to yawn as they're too powerful for most plots, which already contains superhuman soldiers. I wonder if due to their warp "stuff" they have something where if they believe they are powerful they are powerful. Like the theory about the Orks just believe that their technology works, so it does... when if a human built something similar it would fall apart.

I wonder if that's something that all Space Marines have to a small extent. Space Wolves are constantly pulling off ridiculous stuff but a part of their training is the belief that they can do almost anything. On top of that if that belief power was what the Emperor got from Chaos then that would make sense as that's a big power.

I would chuck something in here that from all the confirmed Primarch kills that we've had so far, every single one of them has been by another Primarch, or the Emperor. Discounting ones such as Dorn, where it is ambiguious,

Lion - mortally wounded, but not killed, by Luther
Fulgrim - had his brain blown apart by a sniper's bullet, was fine
Dorn - maybe killed Alpharius
Kurze - killed Vulkan many times, death ambiguious as tape was deleted. Also killed with an anti-warp Necron weapon.
Sanguinius - killed by Horus
Ferrus Manus - Killed by Fulgrim
Angron - a Titan couldn't crush him
Guilliman - killed/mortally wounded by Fulgrim, only alive by Ex Machina
Horus - obliterated by the Emperor like a 50 cal vs a strawberry
Lorgar - tanked a plasma blast to the face and walked it off. Bested Khorne's TOP Daemon as a normal wussy Primarch (bear in mind, this is a Bloodthirster that Khorne purposely made as the upgrade to Skarband and is supposed to be his BEST BEST BEST bloodthirster because clearly KaBandha isn't up to the job either)
Vulkan - killed many times by Kurze
Alpharius - supposed killed by Dorn


My thinking is that Space Marines and Primarch don't have necessarily a "I believe therefore it is" power but rather, a special blessing that only a Primarch can kill a Primarch. This is why it was necessary for the Chaos Gods to corrupt the Primarchs, turn them on each other, raise them to Daemonhood to control, because they couldn't simply destroy them, or send in their strongest champions (see Lorgar and Sanguinius vs Khorne's top brass). They needed them to destroy each other. We know the warp works in a way where metaphor can be as binding as physics, so what if the Emperor made a deal with the Chaos Gods for this power? He assumed that all 20 would be working together as brothers under his direct command and unwavering like the Custodes are, so there would be no-one to kill them at all.

We also know that the Emperor created a special implant for them called the God-Maker. Cawl recreated half of it for use in Primaris marines that made them extra big, but the other half is completely missing? God-Maker sounds like a name for organ that would not only make you super intelligent but also, if the Warp is involved, make you God-Like. Who else can kill a god but another god? When looking at confirmed Primarch deaths, only Kurze stands out but there could be two explanations. 1. the C'tan Phase Sword cancelled out that power. 2. By voluntarily allowing the assassination, Kurze killed himself, suicide by assassin style, so the protection didn't kick in.

As we also know, Space Marines are made using genetic implants crafted from Primarch DNA, so perhaps some of this power bled out into them. Only a ltitle bit, but enough to defy the odds against lesser species when the chips are down. There are exceptions, IE, the big races, but I can also reason those out

Orks - have their own "Think field" that overrides the tiny warp protection that being a Space Marine comes with.
Eldar - Their active psychic power overrides
Necrons - anti-warp aliens cancel it out*
Tyranids - disrupt the Warp immensely
Tau - so minimally influenced by the Warp it doesn't affect them
Dark Eldar - formerly psychic and spent millennia fighting against the Warp and its inhabitants so would be a to circumvent

 Deadshot wrote:

pm713 wrote:I thought the Titan squished him into the ground?

From what I remember, Angron could feel his hips and spine begin to give way even if his muscles and brain did not, so it was a delaying action that he could not hold indefinitely but definitely an impressive feat of strength.

pm713 wrote:

TarkinLarson wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
It's very difficult to measure. The most accurate answer is probably "as powerful as the needs of the plot demand".

Unfortunately, having listened to the audio books for the HH1-3, Flight of Eisenstein, and Fulgrim, this is very clearly the way it's goes.

When a primarch turns up I start to yawn as they're too powerful for most plots, which already contains superhuman soldiers. I wonder if due to their warp "stuff" they have something where if they believe they are powerful they are powerful. Like the theory about the Orks just believe that their technology works, so it does... when if a human built something similar it would fall apart.

I wonder if that's something that all Space Marines have to a small extent. Space Wolves are constantly pulling off ridiculous stuff but a part of their training is the belief that they can do almost anything. On top of that if that belief power was what the Emperor got from Chaos then that would make sense as that's a big power.

I would chuck something in here that from all the confirmed Primarch kills that we've had so far, every single one of them has been by another Primarch, or the Emperor. Discounting ones such as Dorn, where it is ambiguious,

Lion - mortally wounded, but not killed, by Luther
Fulgrim - had his brain blown apart by a sniper's bullet, was fine
Dorn - maybe killed Alpharius
Kurze - killed Vulkan many times, death ambiguious as tape was deleted. Also killed with an anti-warp Necron weapon.
Sanguinius - killed by Horus
Ferrus Manus - Killed by Fulgrim
Angron - a Titan couldn't crush him
Guilliman - killed/mortally wounded by Fulgrim, only alive by Ex Machina
Horus - obliterated by the Emperor like a 50 cal vs a strawberry
Lorgar - tanked a plasma blast to the face and walked it off. Bested Khorne's TOP Daemon as a normal wussy Primarch (bear in mind, this is a Bloodthirster that Khorne purposely made as the upgrade to Skarband and is supposed to be his BEST BEST BEST bloodthirster because clearly KaBandha isn't up to the job either)
Vulkan - killed many times by Kurze
Alpharius - supposed killed by Dorn


My thinking is that Space Marines and Primarch don't have necessarily a "I believe therefore it is" power but rather, a special blessing that only a Primarch can kill a Primarch. This is why it was necessary for the Chaos Gods to corrupt the Primarchs, turn them on each other, raise them to Daemonhood to control, because they couldn't simply destroy them, or send in their strongest champions (see Lorgar and Sanguinius vs Khorne's top brass). They needed them to destroy each other. We know the warp works in a way where metaphor can be as binding as physics, so what if the Emperor made a deal with the Chaos Gods for this power? He assumed that all 20 would be working together as brothers under his direct command and unwavering like the Custodes are, so there would be no-one to kill them at all.

We also know that the Emperor created a special implant for them called the God-Maker. Cawl recreated half of it for use in Primaris marines that made them extra big, but the other half is completely missing? God-Maker sounds like a name for organ that would not only make you super intelligent but also, if the Warp is involved, make you God-Like. Who else can kill a god but another god? When looking at confirmed Primarch deaths, only Kurze stands out but there could be two explanations. 1. the C'tan Phase Sword cancelled out that power. 2. By voluntarily allowing the assassination, Kurze killed himself, suicide by assassin style, so the protection didn't kick in.

As we also know, Space Marines are made using genetic implants crafted from Primarch DNA, so perhaps some of this power bled out into them. Only a ltitle bit, but enough to defy the odds against lesser species when the chips are down. There are exceptions, IE, the big races, but I can also reason those out

Orks - have their own "Think field" that overrides the tiny warp protection that being a Space Marine comes with.
Eldar - Their active psychic power overrides
Necrons - anti-warp aliens cancel it out*
Tyranids - disrupt the Warp immensely
Tau - so minimally influenced by the Warp it doesn't affect them
Dark Eldar - formerly psychic and spent millennia fighting against the Warp and its inhabitants so would be a to circumvent

Fulgrims brain wasn't touched by Sharrowkyn's bullet, it ricocheted from his skull around and out the back of his head.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

pm713 wrote:I thought the Titan squished him into the ground?

From what I remember, Angron could feel his hips and spine begin to give way even if his muscles and brain did not, so it was a delaying action that he could not hold indefinitely but definitely an impressive feat of strength.

pm713 wrote:

TarkinLarson wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
It's very difficult to measure. The most accurate answer is probably "as powerful as the needs of the plot demand".

Unfortunately, having listened to the audio books for the HH1-3, Flight of Eisenstein, and Fulgrim, this is very clearly the way it's goes.

When a primarch turns up I start to yawn as they're too powerful for most plots, which already contains superhuman soldiers. I wonder if due to their warp "stuff" they have something where if they believe they are powerful they are powerful. Like the theory about the Orks just believe that their technology works, so it does... when if a human built something similar it would fall apart.

I wonder if that's something that all Space Marines have to a small extent. Space Wolves are constantly pulling off ridiculous stuff but a part of their training is the belief that they can do almost anything. On top of that if that belief power was what the Emperor got from Chaos then that would make sense as that's a big power.

I would chuck something in here that from all the confirmed Primarch kills that we've had so far, every single one of them has been by another Primarch, or the Emperor. Discounting ones such as Dorn, where it is ambiguious,

Lion - mortally wounded, but not killed, by Luther
Fulgrim - had his brain blown apart by a sniper's bullet, was fine
Dorn - maybe killed Alpharius
Kurze - killed Vulkan many times, death ambiguious as tape was deleted. Also killed with an anti-warp Necron weapon.
Sanguinius - killed by Horus
Ferrus Manus - Killed by Fulgrim
Angron - a Titan couldn't crush him
Guilliman - killed/mortally wounded by Fulgrim, only alive by Ex Machina
Horus - obliterated by the Emperor like a 50 cal vs a strawberry
Lorgar - tanked a plasma blast to the face and walked it off. Bested Khorne's TOP Daemon as a normal wussy Primarch (bear in mind, this is a Bloodthirster that Khorne purposely made as the upgrade to Skarband and is supposed to be his BEST BEST BEST bloodthirster because clearly KaBandha isn't up to the job either)
Vulkan - killed many times by Kurze
Alpharius - supposed killed by Dorn


My thinking is that Space Marines and Primarch don't have necessarily a "I believe therefore it is" power but rather, a special blessing that only a Primarch can kill a Primarch. This is why it was necessary for the Chaos Gods to corrupt the Primarchs, turn them on each other, raise them to Daemonhood to control, because they couldn't simply destroy them, or send in their strongest champions (see Lorgar and Sanguinius vs Khorne's top brass). They needed them to destroy each other. We know the warp works in a way where metaphor can be as binding as physics, so what if the Emperor made a deal with the Chaos Gods for this power? He assumed that all 20 would be working together as brothers under his direct command and unwavering like the Custodes are, so there would be no-one to kill them at all.

We also know that the Emperor created a special implant for them called the God-Maker. Cawl recreated half of it for use in Primaris marines that made them extra big, but the other half is completely missing? God-Maker sounds like a name for organ that would not only make you super intelligent but also, if the Warp is involved, make you God-Like. Who else can kill a god but another god? When looking at confirmed Primarch deaths, only Kurze stands out but there could be two explanations. 1. the C'tan Phase Sword cancelled out that power. 2. By voluntarily allowing the assassination, Kurze killed himself, suicide by assassin style, so the protection didn't kick in.

As we also know, Space Marines are made using genetic implants crafted from Primarch DNA, so perhaps some of this power bled out into them. Only a ltitle bit, but enough to defy the odds against lesser species when the chips are down. There are exceptions, IE, the big races, but I can also reason those out

Orks - have their own "Think field" that overrides the tiny warp protection that being a Space Marine comes with.
Eldar - Their active psychic power overrides
Necrons - anti-warp aliens cancel it out*
Tyranids - disrupt the Warp immensely
Tau - so minimally influenced by the Warp it doesn't affect them
Dark Eldar - formerly psychic and spent millennia fighting against the Warp and its inhabitants so would be a to circumvent

Fulgrims brain wasn't touched by Sharrowkyn's bullet, it ricocheted from his skull around and out the back of his head.

I remember reading that portion and thinking "Bulls***." Less believable than Lee Harvey Oswald was the sole shooter. We're taking real magic bullet theory to believe that a bullet hit the curve of his skull and ricochet at almost 45°, spun right around the inside of the skull and back out without touching ANY of the brain without some Warp fethery going on.

 Deadshot wrote:
I remember reading that portion and thinking "Bulls***." Less believable than Lee Harvey Oswald was the sole shooter. We're taking real magic bullet theory to believe that a bullet hit the curve of his skull and ricochet at almost 45°, spun right around the inside of the skull and back out without touching ANY of the brain without some Warp fethery going on.

That's the point though, there was a bucket-load of warp-fethery going on at the time. Fulgrim was well on the road to his ascension by that point and I am sure Slaanesh was looking after her new boy-toy.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

pm713 wrote:I thought the Titan squished him into the ground?

From what I remember, Angron could feel his hips and spine begin to give way even if his muscles and brain did not, so it was a delaying action that he could not hold indefinitely but definitely an impressive feat of strength.

pm713 wrote:

TarkinLarson wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
It's very difficult to measure. The most accurate answer is probably "as powerful as the needs of the plot demand".

Unfortunately, having listened to the audio books for the HH1-3, Flight of Eisenstein, and Fulgrim, this is very clearly the way it's goes.

When a primarch turns up I start to yawn as they're too powerful for most plots, which already contains superhuman soldiers. I wonder if due to their warp "stuff" they have something where if they believe they are powerful they are powerful. Like the theory about the Orks just believe that their technology works, so it does... when if a human built something similar it would fall apart.

I wonder if that's something that all Space Marines have to a small extent. Space Wolves are constantly pulling off ridiculous stuff but a part of their training is the belief that they can do almost anything. On top of that if that belief power was what the Emperor got from Chaos then that would make sense as that's a big power.

I would chuck something in here that from all the confirmed Primarch kills that we've had so far, every single one of them has been by another Primarch, or the Emperor. Discounting ones such as Dorn, where it is ambiguious,

Lion - mortally wounded, but not killed, by Luther
Fulgrim - had his brain blown apart by a sniper's bullet, was fine
Dorn - maybe killed Alpharius
Kurze - killed Vulkan many times, death ambiguious as tape was deleted. Also killed with an anti-warp Necron weapon.
Sanguinius - killed by Horus
Ferrus Manus - Killed by Fulgrim
Angron - a Titan couldn't crush him
Guilliman - killed/mortally wounded by Fulgrim, only alive by Ex Machina
Horus - obliterated by the Emperor like a 50 cal vs a strawberry
Lorgar - tanked a plasma blast to the face and walked it off. Bested Khorne's TOP Daemon as a normal wussy Primarch (bear in mind, this is a Bloodthirster that Khorne purposely made as the upgrade to Skarband and is supposed to be his BEST BEST BEST bloodthirster because clearly KaBandha isn't up to the job either)
Vulkan - killed many times by Kurze
Alpharius - supposed killed by Dorn


My thinking is that Space Marines and Primarch don't have necessarily a "I believe therefore it is" power but rather, a special blessing that only a Primarch can kill a Primarch. This is why it was necessary for the Chaos Gods to corrupt the Primarchs, turn them on each other, raise them to Daemonhood to control, because they couldn't simply destroy them, or send in their strongest champions (see Lorgar and Sanguinius vs Khorne's top brass). They needed them to destroy each other. We know the warp works in a way where metaphor can be as binding as physics, so what if the Emperor made a deal with the Chaos Gods for this power? He assumed that all 20 would be working together as brothers under his direct command and unwavering like the Custodes are, so there would be no-one to kill them at all.

We also know that the Emperor created a special implant for them called the God-Maker. Cawl recreated half of it for use in Primaris marines that made them extra big, but the other half is completely missing? God-Maker sounds like a name for organ that would not only make you super intelligent but also, if the Warp is involved, make you God-Like. Who else can kill a god but another god? When looking at confirmed Primarch deaths, only Kurze stands out but there could be two explanations. 1. the C'tan Phase Sword cancelled out that power. 2. By voluntarily allowing the assassination, Kurze killed himself, suicide by assassin style, so the protection didn't kick in.

As we also know, Space Marines are made using genetic implants crafted from Primarch DNA, so perhaps some of this power bled out into them. Only a ltitle bit, but enough to defy the odds against lesser species when the chips are down. There are exceptions, IE, the big races, but I can also reason those out

Orks - have their own "Think field" that overrides the tiny warp protection that being a Space Marine comes with.
Eldar - Their active psychic power overrides
Necrons - anti-warp aliens cancel it out*
Tyranids - disrupt the Warp immensely
Tau - so minimally influenced by the Warp it doesn't affect them
Dark Eldar - formerly psychic and spent millennia fighting against the Warp and its inhabitants so would be a to circumvent

Fulgrims brain wasn't touched by Sharrowkyn's bullet, it ricocheted from his skull around and out the back of his head.

I remember reading that portion and thinking "Bulls***." Less believable than Lee Harvey Oswald was the sole shooter. We're taking real magic bullet theory to believe that a bullet hit the curve of his skull and ricochet at almost 45°, spun right around the inside of the skull and back out without touching ANY of the brain without some Warp fethery going on.

it never went in the skull, just around it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Karhedron wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
I remember reading that portion and thinking "Bulls***." Less believable than Lee Harvey Oswald was the sole shooter. We're taking real magic bullet theory to believe that a bullet hit the curve of his skull and ricochet at almost 45°, spun right around the inside of the skull and back out without touching ANY of the brain without some Warp fethery going on.

That's the point though, there was a bucket-load of warp-fethery going on at the time. Fulgrim was well on the road to his ascension by that point and I am sure Slaanesh was looking after her new boy-toy.

He never ascended until he went to the croneworld and had Eidolon stick thousands of spirit stones in his flesh after he sacrificed Perterabu.. Before that when he killed Ferris Manus he was possessed by a daemon but he managed to overcome the daemon. I thought he was a daemon prince then and he was just growing into a daemon but Angel Exterminatus cleared that up.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
I remember reading that portion and thinking "Bulls***." Less believable than Lee Harvey Oswald was the sole shooter. We're taking real magic bullet theory to believe that a bullet hit the curve of his skull and ricochet at almost 45°, spun right around the inside of the skull and back out without touching ANY of the brain without some Warp fethery going on.

That's the point though, there was a bucket-load of warp-fethery going on at the time. Fulgrim was well on the road to his ascension by that point and I am sure Slaanesh was looking after her new boy-toy.

He never ascended until he went to the croneworld and had Eidolon stick thousands of spirit stones in his flesh after he sacrificed Perterabu.. Before that when he killed Ferris Manus he was possessed by a daemon but he managed to overcome the daemon. I thought he was a daemon prince then and he was just growing into a daemon but Angel Exterminatus cleared that up.

I agree he didn't ascend until he reached the Crone World but he had already started changing. The ritual on the Crone World sealed the deal.

In one of the short stories set just before AE, Fabious Bile examines Fulgrim, later he tells some of the other ECs that the Primarch is beginning to change. I don't have the exact quotation in front of me but he says something along the lines of something growing inside him.

If you want it in tabletop terms, he already had the Mark of Slannesh upgrade but didn't yet have the full DP upgrade.

 Karhedron wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
I remember reading that portion and thinking "Bulls***." Less believable than Lee Harvey Oswald was the sole shooter. We're taking real magic bullet theory to believe that a bullet hit the curve of his skull and ricochet at almost 45°, spun right around the inside of the skull and back out without touching ANY of the brain without some Warp fethery going on.

That's the point though, there was a bucket-load of warp-fethery going on at the time. Fulgrim was well on the road to his ascension by that point and I am sure Slaanesh was looking after her new boy-toy.

He never ascended until he went to the croneworld and had Eidolon stick thousands of spirit stones in his flesh after he sacrificed Perterabu.. Before that when he killed Ferris Manus he was possessed by a daemon but he managed to overcome the daemon. I thought he was a daemon prince then and he was just growing into a daemon but Angel Exterminatus cleared that up.

I agree he didn't ascend until he reached the Crone World but he had already started changing. The ritual on the Crone World sealed the deal.

In one of the short stories set just before AE, Fabious Bile examines Fulgrim, later he tells some of the other ECs that the Primarch is beginning to change. I don't have the exact quotation in front of me but he says something along the lines of something growing inside him.

If you want it in tabletop terms, he already had the Mark of Slannesh upgrade but didn't yet have the full DP upgrade.

Yeah that's in the The Reflection Crack'd short story in Age of Darkness. I see it differently though, every III legionnaire had changed in some sort of way, Fabius' Kakophoni for example but also mutations from Chaos boons etc, Fulgrim was changing but I think he was just changing because all the III legion apart from the Bearers gave themselves fully to their respective gods. Most of the Primarchs didn't change and became Daemon Primarchs due to one pivotal moment like Angron in betrayer. I think Fulgrim changed because of his possession.