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PenitentJake wrote: I will say this again: Imperial soup is far more fluffy than Imperial Mono-faction.
Marines being standard cannon fodder has always been my big gripe with the game in the past. Imperial soup is way more in line with the world I've experienced outside of the tabletop then what I saw from them in previous editions of the game.
Its a yes and a no. From what i have read in very large engagements yes there is soup everywhere. But when you get down to your basic 2000 point list with a few squads and some tanks I don't like the look of soup. I've always pictured whats going on in the table top as a small engagement of a larger battle. That guard meat shield is holding the line a few tables away from where the SM have been deployed on this table to cut off the head of x opponent. Its also the reason I personally never take named characters
PenitentJake wrote: I will say this again: Imperial soup is far more fluffy than Imperial Mono-faction.
Marines being standard cannon fodder has always been my big gripe with the game in the past. Imperial soup is way more in line with the world I've experienced outside of the tabletop then what I saw from them in previous editions of the game.
Its a yes and a no. From what i have read in very large engagements yes there is soup everywhere. But when you get down to your basic 2000 point list with a few squads and some tanks I don't like the look of soup. I've always pictured whats going on in the table top as a small engagement of a larger battle. That guard meat shield is holding the line a few tables away from where the SM have been deployed on this table to cut off the head of x opponent. Its also the reason I personally never take named characters
2000 points is not "a few squads and some tanks".
2000 points can include an entire company of superheavy tanks, an entire Noble Household of Imperial Knights, or a whole Battle Company of Space Marines. That's hardly "a few squads and some tanks". A 500 point game for Imperial Guard can include a Leman Russ, two Chimeras, 30 Guardsmen, and 2 Commanders. That's "a few squads and some tanks".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/02 18:18:14
PenitentJake wrote: I will say this again: Imperial soup is far more fluffy than Imperial Mono-faction.
Marines being standard cannon fodder has always been my big gripe with the game in the past. Imperial soup is way more in line with the world I've experienced outside of the tabletop then what I saw from them in previous editions of the game.
Its a yes and a no. From what i have read in very large engagements yes there is soup everywhere. But when you get down to your basic 2000 point list with a few squads and some tanks I don't like the look of soup. I've always pictured whats going on in the table top as a small engagement of a larger battle. That guard meat shield is holding the line a few tables away from where the SM have been deployed on this table to cut off the head of x opponent. Its also the reason I personally never take named characters
2000 points is not "a few squads and some tanks".
2000 points can include an entire company of superheavy tanks, an entire Noble Household of Imperial Knights, or a whole Battle Company of Space Marines. That's hardly "a few squads and some tanks". A 500 point game for Imperial Guard can include a Leman Russ, two Chimeras, 30 Guardsmen, and 2 Commanders. That's "a few squads and some tanks".
Yeah in 40k settings I consider that a few squads and some tanks. I know this is also my personal opinion but in the fluff a LR chimera and a couple of squads isn't exactly they type of support thats called in to help out a SM chapter
PenitentJake wrote: I will say this again: Imperial soup is far more fluffy than Imperial Mono-faction.
Marines being standard cannon fodder has always been my big gripe with the game in the past. Imperial soup is way more in line with the world I've experienced outside of the tabletop then what I saw from them in previous editions of the game.
Its a yes and a no. From what i have read in very large engagements yes there is soup everywhere. But when you get down to your basic 2000 point list with a few squads and some tanks I don't like the look of soup. I've always pictured whats going on in the table top as a small engagement of a larger battle. That guard meat shield is holding the line a few tables away from where the SM have been deployed on this table to cut off the head of x opponent. Its also the reason I personally never take named characters
2000 points is not "a few squads and some tanks".
2000 points can include an entire company of superheavy tanks, an entire Noble Household of Imperial Knights, or a whole Battle Company of Space Marines. That's hardly "a few squads and some tanks". A 500 point game for Imperial Guard can include a Leman Russ, two Chimeras, 30 Guardsmen, and 2 Commanders. That's "a few squads and some tanks".
Yeah in 40k settings I consider that a few squads and some tanks. I know this is also my personal opinion but in the fluff a LR chimera and a couple of squads isn't exactly they type of support thats called in to help out a SM chapter
Right... my example was for 500 points. At 2000 points, you could fit in 90 Space Marines (~1450 points after some cheapo upgrades), a Knight (~350), and a whole platoon of Imperial Guard. That's more resources than a given side has in many novels.
PenitentJake wrote: I will say this again: Imperial soup is far more fluffy than Imperial Mono-faction.
Marines being standard cannon fodder has always been my big gripe with the game in the past. Imperial soup is way more in line with the world I've experienced outside of the tabletop then what I saw from them in previous editions of the game.
Its a yes and a no. From what i have read in very large engagements yes there is soup everywhere. But when you get down to your basic 2000 point list with a few squads and some tanks I don't like the look of soup. I've always pictured whats going on in the table top as a small engagement of a larger battle. That guard meat shield is holding the line a few tables away from where the SM have been deployed on this table to cut off the head of x opponent. Its also the reason I personally never take named characters
2000 points is not "a few squads and some tanks".
2000 points can include an entire company of superheavy tanks, an entire Noble Household of Imperial Knights, or a whole Battle Company of Space Marines. That's hardly "a few squads and some tanks". A 500 point game for Imperial Guard can include a Leman Russ, two Chimeras, 30 Guardsmen, and 2 Commanders. That's "a few squads and some tanks".
Yeah in 40k settings I consider that a few squads and some tanks. I know this is also my personal opinion but in the fluff a LR chimera and a couple of squads isn't exactly they type of support thats called in to help out a SM chapter
Right... my example was for 500 points. At 2000 points, you could fit in 90 Space Marines (~1450 points after some cheapo upgrades), a Knight (~350), and a whole platoon of Imperial Guard. That's more resources than a given side has in many novels.
Yeah then you end up with more SM then guard support which seems silly once again (keep in mind i recognize this is my personal opinion). There is no wrong way to envision the game, the main issue game wise right now is that there is absolutely no drawback to soup and that makes game balance incredibly difficult.
I’m remembering Eisenhorn: Xenos, in which the Deathwatch, with Inquisition allies, teamed with the remnants of the guard that fought the cultists and CSM with the heretical radical inquisitor.
If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed.
Asmodios wrote: the main issue game wise right now is that there is absolutely no drawback to soup and that makes game balance incredibly difficult.
I'm not sure why you feel that way. Game balance seems substantially better than any other version of the game I've seen and soup seems to be making that a lot easier.
PenitentJake wrote: I will say this again: Imperial soup is far more fluffy than Imperial Mono-faction.
Marines being standard cannon fodder has always been my big gripe with the game in the past. Imperial soup is way more in line with the world I've experienced outside of the tabletop then what I saw from them in previous editions of the game.
Its a yes and a no. From what i have read in very large engagements yes there is soup everywhere. But when you get down to your basic 2000 point list with a few squads and some tanks I don't like the look of soup. I've always pictured whats going on in the table top as a small engagement of a larger battle. That guard meat shield is holding the line a few tables away from where the SM have been deployed on this table to cut off the head of x opponent. Its also the reason I personally never take named characters
2000 points is not "a few squads and some tanks".
2000 points can include an entire company of superheavy tanks, an entire Noble Household of Imperial Knights, or a whole Battle Company of Space Marines. That's hardly "a few squads and some tanks". A 500 point game for Imperial Guard can include a Leman Russ, two Chimeras, 30 Guardsmen, and 2 Commanders. That's "a few squads and some tanks".
Yeah in 40k settings I consider that a few squads and some tanks. I know this is also my personal opinion but in the fluff a LR chimera and a couple of squads isn't exactly they type of support thats called in to help out a SM chapter
Right... my example was for 500 points. At 2000 points, you could fit in 90 Space Marines (~1450 points after some cheapo upgrades), a Knight (~350), and a whole platoon of Imperial Guard. That's more resources than a given side has in many novels.
Yeah then you end up with more SM then guard support which seems silly once again (keep in mind i recognize this is my personal opinion). There is no wrong way to envision the game, the main issue game wise right now is that there is absolutely no drawback to soup and that makes game balance incredibly difficult.
Why does that seem silly? It's literally the end of Storm of Iron - a few remaining Guardsmen backing up an Imperial Fists Battle Company. Replace the Knight with an Admech unit including Praetorian Kataphron Battle Servitors, then you literally have that army.
The problem is if you get ride of the ally system a lot of smaller factions simply don't work. For example, Harlis, Inqusition, Assassins, etc. are not that viable as stand alone forces.
Asmodios wrote: the main issue game wise right now is that there is absolutely no drawback to soup and that makes game balance incredibly difficult.
I'm not sure why you feel that way. Game balance seems substantially better than any other version of the game I've seen and soup seems to be making that a lot easier.
Better than other versions yes
The issue i see with it is that every army is typically designed and fluff wise supposed to have a weakness. aka tau cant fight in CC, SM are elite but typically have few guys ect. Soup allows you to take whatever your weakness is and plug that with a faction that does it better.... That is unless your a faction that cant soup. This also causes people to look at the power level of a codex including the new soup of the month. This can cause people to call things like custdos op when they simply aren't. This can cause a nerf to them that brings the soup in line but hurts already weak mono players even more. I would like to see some advantage to playing mono or some penalty to playing soup. IMO this would bring about better codex to codex balance as trying to balance something like tau vs (literally half the armies in the game mixed together) is an incredibly hard task.
PenitentJake wrote: I will say this again: Imperial soup is far more fluffy than Imperial Mono-faction.
Marines being standard cannon fodder has always been my big gripe with the game in the past. Imperial soup is way more in line with the world I've experienced outside of the tabletop then what I saw from them in previous editions of the game.
Its a yes and a no. From what i have read in very large engagements yes there is soup everywhere. But when you get down to your basic 2000 point list with a few squads and some tanks I don't like the look of soup. I've always pictured whats going on in the table top as a small engagement of a larger battle. That guard meat shield is holding the line a few tables away from where the SM have been deployed on this table to cut off the head of x opponent. Its also the reason I personally never take named characters
2000 points is not "a few squads and some tanks".
2000 points can include an entire company of superheavy tanks, an entire Noble Household of Imperial Knights, or a whole Battle Company of Space Marines. That's hardly "a few squads and some tanks". A 500 point game for Imperial Guard can include a Leman Russ, two Chimeras, 30 Guardsmen, and 2 Commanders. That's "a few squads and some tanks".
Yeah in 40k settings I consider that a few squads and some tanks. I know this is also my personal opinion but in the fluff a LR chimera and a couple of squads isn't exactly they type of support thats called in to help out a SM chapter
Right... my example was for 500 points. At 2000 points, you could fit in 90 Space Marines (~1450 points after some cheapo upgrades), a Knight (~350), and a whole platoon of Imperial Guard. That's more resources than a given side has in many novels.
Yeah then you end up with more SM then guard support which seems silly once again (keep in mind i recognize this is my personal opinion). There is no wrong way to envision the game, the main issue game wise right now is that there is absolutely no drawback to soup and that makes game balance incredibly difficult.
Why does that seem silly? It's literally the end of Storm of Iron - a few remaining Guardsmen backing up an Imperial Fists Battle Company. Replace the Knight with an Admech unit including Praetorian Kataphron Battle Servitors, then you literally have that army.
The WH40k universe is big enough where you can make any army and find some instance of (well that made sense). Im saying that IMO it looks and feels wrong. Other then a rare occasion when you have to mesh together x,y and z from all these different factions for some specific reason they really dont deploy on that small of a scale together reguarly.
For example
Could 3 Custodes on jet bikes show up to support a small IG detachment..... yes. Should this be the norm for half of IG games you seeing? and why is it that every Custode in the galaxy is a shield caption on a jet bike? Why is guilliman personally leading every small contingent of SM in existence right now. Theres nothing wrong with it but it feels wrong to me. I personally dont like it
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/02 19:05:33
Virtually every game in my group contains multiple named characters. If you worry too much about every battle representing fluff you're going to hit massive issues way before you get to soup.
Your gripe seems to not be so much soup is bad or that allies are a problem so much as that people who want to win will always take the best options. Mono faction will not change that.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I think soup lists are actually fluffier than non soup.
Fight me.
Okay. Why?
Because every novel I've ever read includes mentions of other forces arriving on one side or the other. Do you really want me to think back to the novel's I've read that include two Imperial or Chaos forces fighting together?
Sure, much of 40k is the marines arriving to turn the tide while the local guard regiments hold the line. But that doesn't mean that some Smurfs, Ravenguard, Knights of Blood, a guard battalion and a Xenos Inquisitor are going to join forces working as one in as small an area as the tabletop represents.
Asmodios wrote: the main issue game wise right now is that there is absolutely no drawback to soup and that makes game balance incredibly difficult.
I'm not sure why you feel that way. Game balance seems substantially better than any other version of the game I've seen and soup seems to be making that a lot easier.
Better than other versions yes
The issue i see with it is that every army is typically designed and fluff wise supposed to have a weakness. aka tau cant fight in CC, SM are elite but typically have few guys ect. Soup allows you to take whatever your weakness is and plug that with a faction that does it better.... That is unless your a faction that cant soup. This also causes people to look at the power level of a codex including the new soup of the month. This can cause people to call things like custdos op when they simply aren't. This can cause a nerf to them that brings the soup in line but hurts already weak mono players even more. I would like to see some advantage to playing mono or some penalty to playing soup. IMO this would bring about better codex to codex balance as trying to balance something like tau vs (literally half the armies in the game mixed together) is an incredibly hard task.
This doesn't really hold up when you take into account factions that have had decades of releases. There's no giant weakness to things like Eldar or Guard or even really things like Tyranids or Orks. Space Marines have cheaper, less elite space marines, Guard have elite Guard; Eldar have everything anyone could want. Orks have all of that, just weaker cause Orks. This idea of hyper focused gaping holes in faction capability only really exists when a faction is in its infancy. It doesn't hold up long term and pretty much also results in a faction that's simply not competitive.
Sure, much of 40k is the marines arriving to turn the tide while the local guard regiments hold the line. But that doesn't mean that some Smurfs, Ravenguard, Knights of Blood, a guard battalion and a Xenos Inquisitor are going to join forces working as one in as small an area as the tabletop represents.
Which is precisely why soup has limits.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/02 19:19:46
Unit1126PLL wrote: I think soup lists are actually fluffier than non soup.
Fight me.
Okay. Why?
Because every novel I've ever read includes mentions of other forces arriving on one side or the other. Do you really want me to think back to the novel's I've read that include two Imperial or Chaos forces fighting together?
Sure, much of 40k is the marines arriving to turn the tide while the local guard regiments hold the line. But that doesn't mean that some Smurfs, Ravenguard, Knights of Blood, a guard battalion and a Xenos Inquisitor are going to join forces working as one in as small an area as the tabletop represents.
Honestly you need to suspend your disbelief on this level of stuff or you'd never play a game.
Guilliman has never personally gone down to a planet to fight T'au. Creed was gone before the Primaris rollout. I mean the list of things that can happen on the battlefield that are totally against established canon is near as dammit infinite. It's a game ultimately, not a simulation of historic fictional battles.
I don't see what the exact army composition is such an issue in that context.
Stux wrote: Virtually every game in my group contains multiple named characters. If you worry too much about every battle representing fluff you're going to hit massive issues way before you get to soup.
I have some people in my group that love using named characters. I personally don't like them and don't use them. Im not stopping anyone from doing it i just think its a bit silly
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HoundsofDemos wrote: Your gripe seems to not be so much soup is bad or that allies are a problem so much as that people who want to win will always take the best options. Mono faction will not change that.
Not even that. The issue is when you rank the power of armies based on soup you might end up nuking a unit that is perfectly balanced in a more fluffy mono list. By doing this you have now lowered the competitiveness of an already sub-optimal list while a power gamer will simply just soup in the next best thing and not care. That's why I think soup makes balancing a game much harder.
Asmodios wrote: the main issue game wise right now is that there is absolutely no drawback to soup and that makes game balance incredibly difficult.
I'm not sure why you feel that way. Game balance seems substantially better than any other version of the game I've seen and soup seems to be making that a lot easier.
Better than other versions yes
The issue i see with it is that every army is typically designed and fluff wise supposed to have a weakness. aka tau cant fight in CC, SM are elite but typically have few guys ect. Soup allows you to take whatever your weakness is and plug that with a faction that does it better.... That is unless your a faction that cant soup. This also causes people to look at the power level of a codex including the new soup of the month. This can cause people to call things like custdos op when they simply aren't. This can cause a nerf to them that brings the soup in line but hurts already weak mono players even more. I would like to see some advantage to playing mono or some penalty to playing soup. IMO this would bring about better codex to codex balance as trying to balance something like tau vs (literally half the armies in the game mixed together) is an incredibly hard task.
This doesn't really hold up when you take into account factions that have had decades of releases. There's no giant weakness to things like Eldar or Guard or even really things like Tyranids or Orks. Space Marines have cheaper, less elite space marines, Guard have elite Guard; Eldar have everything anyone could want. Orks have all of that, just weaker cause Orks. This idea of hyper focused gaping holes in faction capability only really exists when a faction is in its infancy. It doesn't hold up long term and pretty much also results in a faction that's simply not competitive.
Sure, much of 40k is the marines arriving to turn the tide while the local guard regiments hold the line. But that doesn't mean that some Smurfs, Ravenguard, Knights of Blood, a guard battalion and a Xenos Inquisitor are going to join forces working as one in as small an area as the tabletop represents.
Which is precisely why soup has limits.
Obviously not hyper-focused.
Let me use a specific example... IG are supposed to be relatively weak in CC. Now they have things like bullgrys or beefed up catachans that are good but nothing like a BA smash captain. Just like BA have predators and devastator squads they don't have squads of basilisks and shadow swords. When you allow people to mix it lets them skip the not so good x and just take the best x unit from an entire faction. This magnifies how good unit y is because its points are not only efficient but you no longer need the less effective x from your army. This leads to units that aren't OP in mono codex builds being nuked because they are broken in soup builds.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/02 19:44:57
"Soup" lists are fairly fluffy, a lot of fluff stories have multiple imperial organizations fighting together. Of course, there are some balance issues that may arise.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/02 21:53:09
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
I like soup lists just not the spammy kind. The spam that we see so often is very annoying and not lore accurate nor is it accurate that three knight titans would fight in a single small engagement. They would have more important things to do than kill a bunch of grots or tyranids, they would leave that up to the infantry.
Nor would Robute Gullimian fight entirely by himself without his Vicitrax Guard
Now overall it is very fluffy for imperial forces to fight with one another.
Its just that right now its a bit too easy competitively to spam really really good units with 0 draw backs.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I think soup lists are actually fluffier than non soup.
Fight me.
Okay. Why?
Because every novel I've ever read includes mentions of other forces arriving on one side or the other. Do you really want me to think back to the novel's I've read that include two Imperial or Chaos forces fighting together?
Sure, much of 40k is the marines arriving to turn the tide while the local guard regiments hold the line. But that doesn't mean that some Smurfs, Ravenguard, Knights of Blood, a guard battalion and a Xenos Inquisitor are going to join forces working as one in as small an area as the tabletop represents.
Honestly you need to suspend your disbelief on this level of stuff or you'd never play a game.
Guilliman has never personally gone down to a planet to fight T'au. Creed was gone before the Primaris rollout. I mean the list of things that can happen on the battlefield that are totally against established canon is near as dammit infinite. It's a game ultimately, not a simulation of historic fictional battles.
I don't see what the exact army composition is such an issue in that context.
Disbelief can only be suspended so far. Gathering Storm, for example crossed the line past where things still "make sense" to some degree.
Ultimately I think soup is inherently unbalanceable without even greater homogenization of rules, and that it allows players to build lists that are good at everything, leading to even more one-dimensional gameplay. "It's fluffy" is a poor rationale for not fixing gameplay issues.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I think soup lists are actually fluffier than non soup.
Fight me.
Okay. Why?
Because every novel I've ever read includes mentions of other forces arriving on one side or the other. Do you really want me to think back to the novel's I've read that include two Imperial or Chaos forces fighting together?
Sure, much of 40k is the marines arriving to turn the tide while the local guard regiments hold the line. But that doesn't mean that some Smurfs, Ravenguard, Knights of Blood, a guard battalion and a Xenos Inquisitor are going to join forces working as one in as small an area as the tabletop represents.
Honestly you need to suspend your disbelief on this level of stuff or you'd never play a game.
Guilliman has never personally gone down to a planet to fight T'au. Creed was gone before the Primaris rollout. I mean the list of things that can happen on the battlefield that are totally against established canon is near as dammit infinite. It's a game ultimately, not a simulation of historic fictional battles.
I don't see what the exact army composition is such an issue in that context.
Disbelief can only be suspended so far. Gathering Storm, for example crossed the line past where things still "make sense" to some degree.
Ultimately I think soup is inherently unbalanceable without even greater homogenization of rules, and that it allows players to build lists that are good at everything, leading to even more one-dimensional gameplay. "It's fluffy" is a poor rationale for not fixing gameplay issues.
The topic is really the fluffiness of soup, not the balance.
I really don't see how someone can think mixing some Guard, Custodes, and Marines together is that immersion breaking when there's so much else that doesn't make lore sense in a normal battle. That's all I'm saying.
