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These changes would certainly help, but they aren't really going to address the core issue. Marine traits are bad, but the bigger problem is that marine statline and weapons overall are bad. It's not just Codex SM marines that are having trouble, it's all marine units (note that some marine codices can field some good lists, but they are using HQs and special, non-marine units for the most part.)

An example to show you that marines stats themselves are the issue would be to look at plague marines. Even with t5, 5++, incredible faction trait, and tons of good strats and powers, we're still not seeing these guys used much. Why? Because they can't kill anything with s4 ap 0. Or consider tactical and assault marines. How many points would they need to cost to be worth fielding? The answer is probably below 10, which is ridiculous.

The problems marines face are due to the changes in 8th edition destroying their offensive and defensive power. I have written about this in detail before here and here, so i'll just summarize:

- Changes to the AP system greatly reduced space marine firepower, while also reducing the value of their armor save. Bolters used to be Str4 AP5, which ignored guard armor. They are now Str4 ap 0, meaning guard have a 33% save rate vs them. This was a huge buff to horde infantry overall. Bolters need to be AP -1 to have similar offensive power again. And marine armor no longer provides full protection against many weapons it used to, such as heavy bolters, and other weapons that were AP4 in the past. To make matters worse, other factions that formerly had S4 AP5 weapons often did have them become AP -1 (gauss), or gained special rules that help their offensive power (shuriken).

- Marines used to rely on being very difficult to kill to grind opponents down. They often had proportionally less firepower than equivalent units from other armies, but made up for it in defense. Without that level of defense, it just doesn't work anymore. MeQs are some of the least survivable models for their points cost.

- Changes to close combat mean that CC units aren't that great in general, and hybrid ranged/CC units that didn't have a ton of melee power but could still tie units up or sweeping advance them off the board are really hosed. The loss of +1 attack on the charge, the ability to lock ranged squads with little firerpower into CC, and the loss of sweeping advance has made SM melee pointless. The old strategy of shoot the choppa and chop the shoota doesn't work anymore.

- Changes to vehicles and the damage system invalided low shot high strength weapons like meltas, so you can no longer have a few special weapons in squads provide useful anti tank. You need to spam anti tank now, and marines don't spam that well. This also goes for being able to stun vehicles with cheaper weapons like autocannons. Marines relied on silencing vehicles while advancing and then killing them in melee. You used to be able to reliably wreck armor with a tac squad with melta and powerfist. Now that squad could spend an entire game attacking a transport that costs a third of their points every turn and still fail to kill it.

- Changes to templates and blasts killed the ability of a few special weapons (flamers, frag missiles) in squads to do meaningful anti horde. You used to be able to get 5-10 models under a flamer template, depending on how packed the squad was, and similar for small blasts. Now you're gonna average like 3, the weapons cost way more, and it no longer ignores the armor of horde units. And your bolters are less effective too. So marines lost the ability to deal with hordes other than spamming heavy bolters or asscans, but those don't work that well either it turns out. A tac squad with melta, missile, and power fist used to be a flexible unit that could threaten everything except dedicated melee specialists with power weapons and plasma spam. Now it threatens nothing, and dies more easily than its equivalent point of pretty much any other troop.

- Transport changes also hit marines hard. Loss of move -> disembark -> shoot hurt tacs hard (not that you'd ever want to now that bolters do basically nothing.) Loss of assault ramps on land raiders destroyed land raider + terminator lists. And let's not even get into what the cost and deep strike changes did to drop pods!

There's more issues and more details on this stuff in the posts I linked. I know these issues hurt other armies too to some extent, and I know that marines did gain some stuff that helps. But the net balance overall is bad for them. Their specific play style was invalidated.

To fix this, they need a stat overhaul. Or they need traits and special rules that are so powerful as to make up for how horribly inefficient they are now. But that'd be a LOT of rules to write. A simple place to start would probably be to improve the armor save of all marines by 1 (terminator 1+, tacs 2+), and drop the ap of bolt weapons by 1. Flamers and meltas also need fixes, but they need that on all armies, not just marines. And then also give them some badass traits. And even that may not be enough.

Overall, I am amazed that GW managed to make a rules edition that gutted their best selling, core armies on the lowest level of mechanics. Its stunning. And 8th is still selling well, which I'm happy for. But imagine how much better it'd be doing if marines were actually good?

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I don't think special rules is the solution for most of the SM line. More precisely, I think that Terminators shouldn't receive special rules buffs, just cost reductions. A cost reduction would improve both their toughness and firepower density simultaneously. The same goes for tacticals. I think special rules should be reserved for something that really doesn't work the way it should, and needs help beyond what a points change could fix. Terminators and Tacticals are working as intended, but kind of expensive.

Chapter Tactics
All units with [Chapter] benefit from Chapter Tactics. If there's no problem with a Leviathan falling back, I don't see why a Predator can't.

Land Raiders
Power of the Machine Spirit: The Land Raider ignores the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons, and can fire it's weapons in the shooting phase even if it fell back in the movement phase.

Vindicators
Demolisher Cannon: change profile to: Heavy 2d6, S10, AP-3, D2, R24" This should make the Demolisher cannon fairly decent against vehicles, fortification, and medium/heavy infantry, which it should be.
Armor save to 2+ with siege blade.

Whirlwind
I have no idea, honestly. More shots, so it kills infantry better? Maybe Heavy 4d6, S6, AP-, D1, like an increased strength Wyvern?

All Vehicles
Light tracked vehicles to [Rhino, Chimera] T7.
Medium tracked vehicles to [Predator, Vindicator] T8.
Heavy tracked vehicles [Land Raider, Leman Russ, Baneblade, Battlewagon] to T9.
This measure should make vehicles better, and differentiate between light, medium, and heavy vehicles and antitank weapons. Right now, there's heavy vehicles, and all other vehicles, and for the most part antitank weapons don't really see them all that differently

Meltaguns
Double S within half range [wound tanks on 2's], instead of re-roll damage. This is roughly akin to getting the extra D6 armor penetration they used to, and makes them exceptionally good against vehicles up close but fairly okay at a distance.

Stratagems
Killshot: Use in the shooting phase when a friendly Predator is selected to shoot. This Predator's Lascannons and Twin Lascannons add 1 to all damage rolls.
Linebreaker Bombardment: Use in the shooting phase when a friendly Vindicator is selected to shoot. This Vindicator does not attack with it's Demolisher Cannon. Instead, select a target unit. That unit takes D3 mortal wounds. Roll a die for each unit within 6" of the targeted unit, on a 4+, they also take D3 mortal wounds.
Datalink Telemetry: Use in the shooting phase when a friendly Whirlwind is selected to shoot. This Whirlwind re-rolls all failed to-hit rolls during this shooting phase.

I like what we've got here. Especially the change to melta. That'd take it back off the shelf for a lot of armies as a whole.

I feel like point drops shouldn't be the first answer because eventually you just get to a point were you have to argue that a Terminator should just be 5 more points than a regular Marine base (and seeing as people want Marines to apparently be around 10pts base that'd put Terminators at around 15 each which is kind of nuts when you think about it. 150 before wargear for 10 guys with 2+/5++?) due to just having an improved save and an invul and nothing else. Considering the lore of the Terminator armour being reinforced suits that were designed to be used inside of plasma reactors you'd expect them to take a lot of punishment, but they haven't been able to for some time now. At the points costs they have now I feel like the 1+ save (which would be fine on Custodes Terminators as well since it basically just exists to negate the first -1) and reducing damage by 1 would hit the right note without going into the realm of needing to drop points.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


Chapter Tactics
All units with [Chapter] benefit from Chapter Tactics. If there's no problem with a Leviathan falling back, I don't see why a Predator can't.


Stratagems
Killshot: Use in the shooting phase when a friendly Predator is selected to shoot. This Predator's Lascannons and Twin Lascannons add 1 to all damage rolls.
Linebreaker Bombardment: Use in the shooting phase when a friendly Vindicator is selected to shoot. This Vindicator does not attack with it's Demolisher Cannon. Instead, select a target unit. That unit takes D3 mortal wounds. Roll a die for each unit within 6" of the targeted unit, on a 4+, they also take D3 mortal wounds.

I like most of your ideas quite a bit, as most of them are relatively simple to enact and look like they would have the desired change. The ones I've left quoted above are the ones I would take issue with.

1) In regards to giving all units in the codex access to Chapter Tactics, I think most people are in agreement that this should happen. Where I might disagree with you (you didn't really go into it) is certain tactics. Raven Guard tactics should not apply codex-wide. It would automatically make them by far the best Chapter because -1 to hit army-wide is dumb. On the opposite end, rerolling failed charge distances for most Black Templar vehicles is so mediocre that nobody would ever take it; clearly there needs to be more to this fix than only extending the tactics to all units.
2) I don't hate your Killshot idea, but not all Predators take Lascannons. Only applying this to Lascannons is very strange and limiting. Also, I would recommend that Killshot instead just affects one Predator and all other Predators that either, A) are within 6" of the selected Predator, or B) fire at the same target this phase.
3) I don't think Linebreaker Bombardment just doing an automatic D3 Mortal Wounds is a good idea. Like other stratagems, I feel like there needs to be a chance of failure. You could make it similar to Hellfire Rounds or Flakk Missiles, so that you just roll one die to hit, but if you do the unit takes X number of Mortal Wounds (D3? D6? something else?)
4) I agree that Terminators probably don't just need extra rules, as I like keeping things simple and adding special rules doesn't do that. I think a stat change would be a better fix, such as going to 3 wounds and/or a 1+ armor save.

Slight tangent but to make land raiders usable give them the steel behemoth rule and the crushing tracks melee weapon. Suddenly they can't be tied up and want to be close to the enemy as before the supposedly preeminent transport.

 buddha wrote:
Slight tangent but to make land raiders usable give them the steel behemoth rule and the crushing tracks melee weapon. Suddenly they can't be tied up and want to be close to the enemy as before the supposedly preeminent transport.

The Crimson Fists would be proud.

The main thing that the Guard codex did correctly was making Tanks and Infantry gain different benefits. However, the question is what would the Marine tanks do differently.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The main thing that the Guard codex did correctly was making Tanks and Infantry gain different benefits. However, the question is what would the Marine tanks do differently.

That could be one approach, though I almost feel like it should be Army and then Specialization Bonus for Marines. Give them a trait everything can enjoy and then give them something that rewards playing a certain way over others.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The main thing that the Guard codex did correctly was making Tanks and Infantry gain different benefits. However, the question is what would the Marine tanks do differently.

I really feel that some of them can be the same thing. For example, Imperial Fists vehicles ignoring cover or Iron Hands gaining a 6+ to ignore wounds seems pretty reasonable. Even Ultramarines being able to fall out of combat and still shoot at a -1 penalty seems okay. I would either change the Chapter Tactic entirely, or split the tactic for the following:

1. Salamanders: Could be the same thing as currently, but it's so easy to get that same benefit from Captain/Chapter Master + Lieutenant. I feel like something different would be better, but it wouldn't be terrible as is.
2. Black Templars: Rerolling charge rolls on most vehicles is fairly limiting. I definitely feel that Black Templars should have an Infantry/Biker/Dreadnaught tactic, then a Vehicle tactic.
3. White Scars: Similar to Black Templars, being able to fall out of combat and charge with vehicles is going to see pretty limited usage. Maybe something like +2 to movement for tanks would be better; this would allow for quicker Rhino drops to the front, as well as better repositioning of Vindicators or Predators or similar in the event of approaching enemies or to duck from cover to cover.
4. Raven Guard: This really is the problem child, in my opinion. GW should avoid -1 to hit army-wide traits at all costs. I mentioned earlier keeping the -1 to hit for Infantry and maybe Bikers, and have other units gain the benefit of being in cover at all times instead.

The strategems are bunk, the relics are poorly thought out, about half the units are overcosted and half of THOSE don't have any meaningful role on the battlefield. Chapter tactics are lopsided out with only Ravenguard being good and Ultramarines being serviceable at best.

The biggest problem though, is too many rerolls. The codex has so many different source of rerolls that units HAVE to be expensive to reflect the fact that, so long as your HQs are alive, you basically can't miss.

Every unit has to be costed and designed around the fact that it has easy access to full reroll hits and at LEAST reroll 1s to wound. Get rid of some of the rerolls(especially on chapter masters) and you give yourself a lot more design space to work in.

After that, ground up redesigns of Tacticals, Assault marines, HUnters, stalkers, etc.

Marine vehicles are also a mess of problems. Mainly, what is their role even supposed to be? What should they be good at?

Compare the Predator to the Russ. The predator is less durable, has less firepower, has less options, doesn't get traits, and then the russ gets to move and shoot without penalty, can get orders, and shoots its turret twice! But seeing as the predator is categorically worse, at least it costs a lot less...oh wait no it costs the same or more for most equivalent loadouts :(

In the fluff, the Predator's edge on the Russ is speed and superior marine pilot. It does have the marines BS 3+, but that doesn't help much (and you can take tank commander russes.) Speed doesn't really mean much on the tabletop as maneuvering around to avoid (or cause) LoS issues isn't much of a thing this edition. They are both going to be mostly immobile pill boxes most of the time. If predators aren't supposed to have as much durability as a russ, and not as much raw firepower, what else is there for them to have? They do get killshot, which is a cool strat overall, and especially good to let Dakka preds kill much tougher targets than they normally can. But you're stuck with 3, your opponent can shut the strat down too easily, and dakka preds aren't very good anyway.

In the lore, marine vehicles serve mainly a support role to the infantry, whereas for Guard the infantry play a support and screen role for the tanks. But with the current rules, can this really be represented on the tabletop? In previous editions, predators were worse than Russes, but they still had some use because they were a solid way for marines to get heavy weapons and still maintain armor saturation. They were inferior to Russes, but still a good option for marines. But now that we have detachment soup, there's no reason the marines can't just run a detachment of Guard with Russes instead. So where do marine vehicles even fit?

The Predator, Vindicator, and Whirlwind all have basically no role compared to equivalent allied units. I don't really see how this can be fixed beyond drastic point drops, which would be unfluffy and probably cause spam problems. The other option might be more stragems that help these units, and marines getting more command points to use. That way the unit could be worse by default, but potentially better when used well with strats. Or if we got big rewards for pure armies that don't soup?

The few reddit posts I've read have :

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/9626ao/blightlord_terminators_vs_cataphractii_terminators/

then :

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/99vvzr/thoughts_on_how_to_make_space_marines_competetive/

That Blightlord one gets it, and even they could use some buffs too.

Another observation on SM vehicles:

Fast units like Landspeeders have completely lost their role because being a fast vehicle doesn't matter anymore. It used to be great to have the speed to get a melta into a tank's rear armor, or to deny cover by flanking a unit. But now facing doesn't matter for vehicles, and cover is based on being in terrain, so angle doens't matter there either. Since you can't get cover for being obscured, we've lost the whole element of maneuvering to deny it. Even just blocking LoS is so difficult unless you're using big boxes as terrain. So there's no reason to use weaker, faster vehicles rather than just immobile pillboxes that maximize firepower.

And of course, multi meltas can't kill anything anyway!

Upon further thought, predators would be okay if they ignored hit penalties from moving, could fall back and shoot, and perhaps hit on 5's with overwatch or something else to discourage meleeing them. That way they could have the freedom of movement to get up front and get in the way, block objectives, etc. Also kill shot shouldn't require multiple predators. It should work on up to 3 within 2" of each other.

speed definatly needs a look at, IMHO it should factor into to hit somehow, the diea it's as easy to hit a landspeeder staying still as it is one that's moving full speed is IMHO silly

As much as people hate it...fast vehicles going flat out likely should have a -1 to hit.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
As much as people hate it...fast vehicles going flat out likely should have a -1 to hit.

I know back in battletech you had speed brackets where if you moved 0-3 no modifiers, 4-6 a -1 modifer, 7-11 a -2 modifer (this was a hex based game so a speed of 9 was FAST), etc. at the same time you also took a small penalty to your to hits based on the form of movement you choose. it worked really nice in giving quick and light things some added survivability,

So with 40k you could go 0-9 inches, no modifers, 10-12 inches -1 to hit you and to hit enemies. so on and so forth. yeah it means if your quick units are moving super fast they'll have trouble hitting, but at the samne time you'll have added protection, it'll make how fast you move etc be extremely important tactical decisions.

you can also have the to hit, and to be hit charts be differant etc so as not to unduely punish fast units.

BrianDavion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
As much as people hate it...fast vehicles going flat out likely should have a -1 to hit.

I know back in battletech you had speed brackets where if you moved 0-3 no modifiers, 4-6 a -1 modifer, 7-11 a -2 modifer (this was a hex based game so a speed of 9 was FAST), etc. at the same time you also took a small penalty to your to hits based on the form of movement you choose. it worked really nice in giving quick and light things some added survivability,

So with 40k you could go 0-9 inches, no modifers, 10-12 inches -1 to hit you and to hit enemies. so on and so forth. yeah it means if your quick units are moving super fast they'll have trouble hitting, but at the samne time you'll have added protection, it'll make how fast you move etc be extremely important tactical decisions.

you can also have the to hit, and to be hit charts be differant etc so as not to unduely punish fast units.

While I like the idea, I feel like we should be looking at KISS. Keep the game simple to learn in how everything works but with room for mastery in how it all fits together and you use it.

bananathug wrote:
Yeah, 32 attacks, 21 hits, 14 wounds, 9 unsaved = one guard squad dead in melee or 180 points to kill 40. Guard squads can get 30 s4 4+ attacks for 40 points. Not as unbalanced as you think.

For 40 points? What FAQ dropped Straken and Priests to 0 points?

I think we need to start almost from scratch when it comes to Marines and marine vehicles. The core units have to work before you can add in things like chapter tactics.

All vehicles in the game should be able to move and fire heavy weapons with no penalty.

All vehicles in the game should be able to fall back and still shoot, but at -1. The fly keyword is too arbitrarily strong right now because only it allows this, when fly already also gives amazing movement and mobility abilities.

Right now Marines die too easily to AP. So, all Marines units need the following special rule: This model may always take it's unmodified armor save against weapons with an AP value of 1.

Terminators, bikes, and primaris should all reduce incoming damage by 1 to a min of 1. This effectively gives them 3 wounds without making them more resistant to damage 1 weapons. Everything else is fine at either 1 or more than 2 wounds.

Marines also need to do more damage. I'd give them all +1 attack, and make all bolters and chainswords AP1. Keep in mind other Marines would still get 3+ saves against these.

All marines need the tactical flexibility of being able to back out of combat and still function. They used to have this as a part of ATSKNF so I'd give it back to them: all Marines can fall back out of combat and still shoot, but at -1. Ultramarines can have some other trait.

Marine transports need to be useful. Give the rhino 2 fire points again, and allow units to disembark and shoot but not charge after a transport moves. Allow units in a land raider to also charge. Make drop pods either much cheaper, or allow them to break deepstrike rules like the 9" rule or the beta deepstrike rules.

Melta, Las, and missiles need their minimum damage set to 3. This only raises their average damage to 4.5 from 3.5 but makes it way less swingy. It also removes the possibility of most 2 wound models surviving a wound from these weapons. I'd also consider forcing enemies to reroll invul saves against melta to reward it for getting so close.

Flamers need to kill more models. I think the 2d6 hits capped at the number of models in the unit is the best fix for this.

I really feel like something like these changes are needed to fix Marines / the game. It would let vehicles move with more freedom, not be as afraid of a few infantry dudes shooting them down, and remove some of the need for so much bubble wrap in the game. It would also boost the basic durability, damage, and effective operating resilience of Marines by making them harder to kill or tie up, giving their transports the ability to get them where they need to go, and letting them do reasonable damage.

jcd386 wrote:
Allow units in a land raider to also charge.

Sure, if you give the same rule to open-topped vehicles.

 vipoid wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Allow units in a land raider to also charge.

Sure, if you give the same rule to open-topped vehicles.

You can shoot out of your vehicals, also your not paying landraider points for your open topped vehicals.

Ice_can wrote:
You can shoot out of your vehicals

Which changes what, exactly?

Ice_can wrote:
also your not paying landraider points for your open topped vehicals.

And?

 vipoid wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
You can shoot out of your vehicals

Which changes what, exactly?

Ice_can wrote:
also your not paying landraider points for your open topped vehicals.

And?

It comes as petty when, being from the only faction that still has rules to shoot from vehicles and has some of the best transports in the game, you ask for a buff to a terrible unit that nobody uses, to be applied also to your amazing vehicles with special rules that nobody has.

I like a lot of these buffs, but if we're giving honest feedback I think Strike From The Shadows needs fixing. This goes for Forward Operatives too, not just loyalists.

I think it needs to have a limit on how many units can be deployed this way. Perhaps 1cp for one, 3cp for two.

Alright, so I started this thing so I might as well go through everything then to get some discussion going about the codex in whole. I'm going to avoid anything that essentially could just get cheaper (from my viewpoint at least) as a fix. The ultimate goal of this will always remain a submission to GW on why the community is neglecting so much of the book's options, what could change about them to make them a viable option for most players, and generally the point is to get away from just making the army cheaper and cheaper until we start looking like a Guard army with better wargear.

There are two main goals I have for this whole submission:
1. Present a method in which an elite army like Space Marines may be reasonably balanced against other armies, particularly horde armies, while keeping in mind that many changes made here will apply to other armies here when taking into considering wargear or the base mechanics of Marines. Many buffs could end up buffing other armies and it could easilly defeat the purpose of the buff if it leaves the army unable to reach a balanced state within the game.
2. Give each chapter in the codex a faction bonus that provides benefits that every unit can enjoy without imbalancing the game while also giving each a specialization bonus that rewards the choosing of certain wargear or unit types creating distinct types of armies within the framework of the greater codex.

To kick things off, let's go back over those Chapter Tactics again, shall we? Don't worry, this isn't a rehash but rather an update.

Now I've gotten some feedback about these already which has helped me refine the rules a bit more. Each will be a two part bonus to the faction, the first something any unit can enjoy, the second a more focused bonus for specific models or weapons to create an army specialization that will allow each chapter to have a disctinct playstyle from each other if a player builds towards it. I want to start with these first because it creates a picture in your mind on how each change might affect one chapter more than another.

Chapter Tactics: If your army is Battle-forged models with the <Chapter> keyword in a Space Marines detachement gain a Chapter Tactic as long as every unit in that detachment is drawn from the same Chapter.

It's a small change to the way the chapter tactics work, but it's a change every Space Marine player can say should apply. It opens the army up to a lot more flexibility and makes vehicles worth taking knowing that you can kit them to work like the rest of your army.

Ultramarines: Codex Discipline: Ultramarines units never lose more than a single model due to a failed morale test. Models with the Character, Dreadnought, or Vehicle keywords instead gain +1 Leadership. Ultramarine units may shoot in the same turn in which they Fall Back.

The change here is to encourage Ultramarine units to form larger units due to a lower fear of morale as well as giving single model units greater protection against effects that target leadership. The penalty for falling back and shooting was removed to coinicide with the previous change to encourage Ultramarine armies to be aggressive in their approach as they can get stuck in with less fear of morale and then step back and open fire with all barrels.

White Scars: Lightning Assault: Whenever a White Scars unit Advances, Charges or Turbo-boosts it moves an additional 2" in addition to the distance rolled (turbo-boosting models move the full 6" plus the additional 2" for a full 8" instead of rolling). Models with the Biker, Infantry or Dreadnought rule may charge on a turn they Fall Back at no penalty.

The biggest change here is making the army faster overall. The White Scars are known for modifying even their tanks to go faster and it didn't make any sense that they should be going slower. Additionally, as a chapter that basically hits the enemy as they drive through them the chapter isn't known for slowing down, making the bonus to their charges something that just fits naturally. Generally speaking this is the army that moves the fastest, and can slam into the enemy multiple times to kill it making it so they can keep something tied up on your opponent's turn before breaking free, shooting with your army's suport elements and then hitting that unit again.

Imperial Fists: Siege Masters: Enemy units do not recieve benefit to their saving throws for being in cover against attacks made by Imperial Fists, futhermore Imperail Fists re-roll all to-wound and damage rolls against enemy models with the Building keyword. In addition models making a shooting attack with a bolt weapon (and weapon with "bolt" in it's name and Dorn's Arrow are all bolt weapons) may make an additional to-hit roll for every roll of a 6. These to-hit rolls do not generate additional shots. The non-bolt weapon portion of a combi-weapon additionally does not benefit from this rule.

While I feel the rule towards buildings to be incredibly fluffy, it's not enough to build an army around as it's more situational than something you can build an army around. As such I didn't take it away but rolled it into the first effect as it fits well with their removal of an enemy's army protection mechanic. Making them the army that benefits the most from taking bolter weapons was more to make a nod to their special rule in their previous supplement material. This creates an army with a focus on shooting, but with a key focus on using bolt weapons as the basis of that shooting.

Black Templars: Righteous Zeal: You can re-roll either or both dice when a Black Templar unit fails a charge roll. On a turn a model with this rule charges, was charged or makes a Heroic Intervention add 1 to its Attacks characteristic until the end of the Fight Phase .

The Black Templars are quite clearly the melee focused army in the codex and it needs to show. Making their charges more reliable through rerolls ensures these zealots will make it to combat more often while the extra attack seperates them from their fellow Astartes as being the army that throws the most dice in combat. Basically the intent is to make them feel like an army that benefits from being stuck in, and gets stuck in more often.

Salamanders: Master Artisans: Salamander units with this rule may re-roll a single to-hit and to-wound roll each time they shoot or fight. Additionally when using a weapon that rolls to determine the number of shots or attacks you may roll two dice and take the highest result.

The biggest benefit for this rule is undoubtably to vehicle with lower numbers of shots such as lascannon predators, but also helps weapons that swing the other way by making weapons that roll random number of shots more reliable for the army. Ultimately this makes Salamanders a strong contender for certain heavy weapon options as well as weapons such as the flamer which are less than reliable at times.

Raven Guard: Shadow Masters: Raven Guard units that have not advanced or charged this turn gain the benefits for cover. Models that are already in cover and have not moved instead gain an additional +1 to their cover save bonus. Additionally, when targetting Infantry models with this special rule, your opponent must subtract 1 from their to-hit rolls if they are more than 12" away.

There were two changes here: the first was to make it so the army still has a benefit for their ability to hide themselves and their use of camoflauge, allowing them to feel like the ambush masters they should be, while giving Infantry models the existing bonus as a means of encouraging lists that aren't just a mass of tanks that get a cover bonus in the open.

Iron Hands: The Flesh is Weak: Roll a die each time an Iron Hands model loses a wound. On a unmodified roll of a 6 the damage is ignored and the model does not lose a wound. Models with the Character, Terminator or Dreadnought keywords instead ignore the lost wound on an unmodified roll of 5 or 6. Additionally Iron Hand models ignore penalties for moving and firing heavy weapons.

Not only are the more heavilly augmented of the chapter more likely to ignore wounds like they do in the lore, though with future proofing so that the mechanic can't be boosted or reduced by any other rules. Of course, the augmented nature of the Iron Hands become the army that benefits from bringing the most heavy weapons, though due to the way the rules work, they'll be different than the ones seen in a Salamanders army due to the benefits being different. This allows two different kind of armies to come out of the codex that both favor heavier weapons, but favor different ones due to the nature of how the rules interact with the weapons.

With how each chapter operates laid out and given a bonus that makes them feel more in line with their lore now it's time to look at the Warlord Traits. Not all of these need to be looked at as most are pretty solid as is and frankly work as viable options for the army that can take them. So in the interest of not making this longer than it already is going to be, let's keep to the ones that actually need addressing:

Angel of Death: Subtract 1 from the Leadership characteristic of enemy units that are within 6" of your Warlord. If your Warlord has slain an enemy Character during the game instead Subtract 2 from the Leadership characterisitic of enemy units within 12" of your Warlord.

Not a big change here, but it encourages you to use your warlord more aggressively to take out enemy characters during the game.

The Imperium's Sword: Re-roll failed charge rolls for your Warlord. Models with the Black Templars keyword instead roll 3 dice and pick the two highest when making charge rolls. In addition in a turn that your Warlord has charged or makes an Heroic Intervention add 1 to their Attacks characteristic until the end of the fight phase.

Biggest changes here were to make it less redundant to Black Templars while also giving a bonus for Heroic Interventions to make it more likely to see the table for armies who need a defensive melee character escorting their deathball on the table.

Iron Resolve: Add 1 to the Wounds characteristic of your warlord. In addition, roll a dice each time your Warlord loses a wound. On an unmodified roll of a 5 or 6, your Warlord shrugs off the damage and does not lose the wound. Models with the Iron Hands keyword instead ignore a lost wound on an unmodified roll of a 4, 5, or 6.

Due to the proposed changes in the Iron Hands tactic it was basically a necessity to make this work on a 4+ for an Iron Hands warlord. That said, if you want a tank of a character, they're the ones who'll most likely allow you to be one. That's the perks of replacing most of your body with robotic parts I suppose.

Rites of War: Friendly <Chapter> units within 6" of your Warlord automatically pass Morale tests. Additionally units within 6" of your Warlord count as hitting on a 5 or 6 when firing Overwatch.

Biggest change here is to give player better benefit out of the trait for huddling models up on the board. A bonus to overwatch makes this a viable choice for gunline or deathball style armies even when paired with units that don't tend to run full sized squads (Primaris or Devastators for example who don't worry about morale as much).

Champion of Humanity: You can add 1 to all hit and wound rolls made for your Warlord in the Fight phase when targetting an enemy Character or Monster.

Change here is that some of the things you want to throw a beatstick warlord at aren't characters and really any hero of the Imperium should be able to fight either of these things on equal measure.

Adept of the Codex (Ultramarines): While your Warlord is alive and on the table once per phase you may reuse a previously used Stratagem. Stratagems that target friendly units this way may not target the same unit twice, and can not be used to exceed any limitations within the stratagem on how often it may be used. Additionally, once per game you may attempt to regain Command Points spent on a stratagem. If you choose to do this, roll a die for each Command Point, on a 2+ that CP is immediately refunded.

Oathkeeper (Black Templars): At the beginning of the first Battle Round, but before the first turn begins, your Warlord swears a Vow against the enemy forces. Choose a Vow from the following list and apply it's effects immediately:
Abhor the Witch: Your Warlord can attempt to deny one psychic power per turn as if they were a psyker. If they have the Armour of Contempt special rule they may instead attempt to deny one additional psychic power per turn.
Purge the Heretic: Your Warlord may perform a Heroic Interventions if the enemy are within 6" (instead of 3") and move up to 6" while doing so. Additionally all friendly Black Templar units within 6" of your Warlord may roll an extra die and choose the highest when making charge rolls.
Suffer not the Unclean to Live: Your Warlord gains +1 to hit and wound rolls made against models with the Character keywords. Additionally all friendly Black Templar units within 6" of your Warlord roll an extra die and choose the highest while Advancing.

This is a long one but generally the idea is to give the Black Templars their vows back. Each has an obvious bonus against a specific enemy in combat, but comes with an additional use that may cause the vows to be taken against other opponents instead.

With Warlord traits covered, let's talk Wargear. As before I'm only talking about changes here, but the point of these changes is as always going to be with the mind that other armies may see the changes just as well. As such there won't be as much changed her because any bonus to bolters (for example) would equally apply to an army like Sisters of Battle who typically greatly outnumber Space Marines and would negate any bonus that weapon would have against the cheaper bodies. Ideally I'd love to say that every bolter is Rapid Fire 2 and -1 AP to make Marines have the shooting output of a horde army on a smaller body count (and making every casualty take more out of the army in return) but realistically it doesn't work when you consider that the bolter is spread across a number of other armies and a higher body count army with bolters like Sisters or Scouts would become a broken mess in terms of balance.

Ranged Weapons
Bolt pistol (on Primaris models): Replace with Heavy Bolt Pistol. The Primaris are a more elite form of the regular Space Marine army and as such require more quality damage output to make up for their smaller numbers. The additional AP doesn't break balance for the army while giving the units a bit more punch when locked in combat, which is important for a group that lacks a number of melee options.

Demolisher Cannon: When targetting a unit of 5 or more models change this weapon's Type to Heavy 2D3. Generally speaking feedback I've seen time and time again is players prefer to have 2D3 shots over D6 as the average number of shots is higher for the 2D3 (4 versus 3) and it means firing at least 2 shots instead of 1. Basically it just does so much more to make the gun more likely to see the table with this change even without a points change.

Flamestorm gauntlets (shooting): 12" range, Assault 2D6 Generally speaking no one takes these guys due to the range of their weapon being so short and with the loss of templates the fixation of 8" being the range for flame weapons can go away now. The weapon was left unchanged as the Auto Boltstorm Gauntlet pattern comes with the Fragstorm Launchers standard and fires 6+D6 shots meaning the minimum number of shots for the boltstorm variant is higher, but the Flamestorm varient trades that for automatically hitting.

Grav (all varients): If the target has a Save characterisitc of 3+ or better, this weapon's Strength caracteristic is doubled and the Damage characteristic is increased to D3.

Grav-Cannon and grav-amp: Heavy 2

The heavier something is the harder this is supposed to hit, so the way it hits should reflect that. As such increasing it to S10 makes it more likely to hurt those bigger models. However, keeping the Grav-cannon at Heavy 4 wasn't a balanced choice as that would give a Devastator Squad 16 S10 shots against anything with a 3+ or better which would be outright mad.

Heavy Flamer: 12" range, Heavy 2D3. Honestly I don't get the original change from Assault to Heavy, but regardless, we've given up the flamer template and as such it's a good way to make the Heavy Flamer a different weapon from the regular Flamer. An increased range makes it possible for it to reach out and touch the things easier while the 2D3 shots gives it a better average on it's number of hits over a standard flamer. Basically it's moving the weapon beyond just being a slight S and AP boost over the base flamer and makes it feel like a proper heavy weapon on the table.

Heavy Plasma Incinerator: Heavy 2. A slight points increase on the gun might be needed but honestly the reason this version of the Hellblaster's gun is left off the table beyond proxy is because the increased strength isn't enough to counterbalance the loss of mobility from making it a Heavy weapon as well as decreasing the number of shots. Giving it extra shots makes it more into the Primaris answer for more heavilly armoured models (such as vehicles, Custodes and Monsters) while still retaining the same limitations the current gun has: slower movement with decreased efficiency when you need to move.

Master-crafted Stalker bolt rifle/Stalker bolt rifle: Heavy 2 OR the ability to target characters. Either of these options would fix the Stalker bolt rifle so that it would see the table more often. As it currently is the Stalker has the same basic problems the Heavy Plasma Incinerator does: the loss of mobility AND number of shots with no bonus to targetting isn't enough to justify taking this weapon for just about anyone. Being able to target Characters like a Sniper Rifle or giving it Heavy 2 to allow it to offset it's lowered movement would put these into people's lists, even if it brought a slight points increase.

Melta (all types): Double weapon strength at half range instead of the bonus to damage rolls. Additionally change the damage characteristic to D3+3. These are weapons meant to slag even the heaviest of armour at close range and even from further away it could still do a severe amount of damage if it punches through the armour. For obvious reasons this means the Melta bomb should always be S16 as well.

Plasma weapons (all types): Change the bearer being slain to the bearer taking a mortal wound. While having your guys have their faces melt off is a long standing featur of the lore, the introduction of Mortal Wounds really fits this mechanic better and would allow for better synergy with armies that have mechanics to allow them to ignore Mortal Wounds, such as Iron Hands or Death Guard.

Melee Weapons
Chainsword/Combat Knife: -1 AP. This may require a small (1-2 point) bump as it'd still give an extra attack, but considering the lower number of attacks that can be put out by a Marine army compared to larger armies like Orks or even Guard there needs to be a quality bump to offset the lowered quantity of attacks.

Power Sword: Abilities: Parry: Increase the bearer's save by 1 during the Fight Phase. Generally the Power Sword is seen as a lot less of a choice. It doesn't make wounding models easier like the other options, and while it's better at ignoring armour there is a diminishing return on this against most targets. Increasing the defensive ability of the bearer at least gives it a utility beyond strictly trying to more effectively stab the other guy.

Vehicle Wargear
Dozer Blades: Double the bearer's Attacks characteristic until the end of the Fight Phase on a turn it's completed a successful charge. Yes, bring these back and then let use them to ram people.

Siege Shield: The bearer's Save characteristic is increased by 1 against shooting attacks. Giving a Vindicator tank an increased save against shooting for a points cost doesn't break the army as much as it gives a tank with rather limited firepower more staying power so it might actually weather more than a unit's shooting before it's reduced to a smoking puddle of slag on the table.

Misc Equipment
Terminator Armour: Models with the Terminator keyword reduce all weapon damage by 1 to a minimum of 1. Additionally increase their save to 1+. Since a 1 always fails this means that the save only negates the first AP of a weapon and reduces how effective multidamage weapons are. Essentially it means they won't go down quite as fast to anything less than dedicated heavy weapon fire or weight of dice.

Power Armour: Has +1 to it's save Characteristic against weapons with an AP profile of -1 or greater (-2,-3,ect). This was a hard one to puzzle over as Power Armour is on so many different armies. Increasing the save like All is Dust could just lead to us having Sisters running around with effective 2+ saves all the time, and a FnP effect wasn't really going to work either. In the end negating 1 of the weapon's AP seemed like the cleanest solution, though it does mean that you need to hit Thousand Sons Rubric models with -2 AP just to get them to a 3+. Magnus would be proud I guess?

Centurion Armour: Models with the Centurion keyword reduce all weapon damage by 1 to a minimum of 1. Increase their save by 1 against weapons with a Damage characteristic of 1. Yes, even the waddlebots are getting a look here, because honestly all that extra armour should be doing something more than it is.

Gravis Armour: Models with the Gravis keyword reduce all weapon damage by 1 to a minimum of 1. Increase their save by +1 against weapons with a Damage characteristic of 1. With how durable Gravis is supposed to be it needed something to feel like it was going to stay on the table longer. As lazy as it is to just reuse All Is Dust, here and on the Centurion armour, the extra armour being stronger against weaker weapons makes sense in terms of the lore. Reducing the weapon damage fits equally well and gives them more staying power. With these additions the need to push points down on the models becomes rather moot as they become the durable weapon platfoms they're shown as in the lore.

It's still going to take time to go through and look at every unit so I'm stopping here and opening up my ideas (and those I've taken from submissions so far) and asking you to give me some feedback. I've tried to keep these in the realms of reasonable while staying true to the lore that inspires these things when considering how to change things and why those things need to be changed.

Iron hands having the FNP rule is probably enough I don't think they need the ignore penalty for moving and firing, if the 6+ fnp isn't enough make the 5+ army wide.

I think your black Templars vow needs work

Eternal Crusader: Your Warlord may perform a Heroic Interventions if the enemy are within 6" (instead of 3") and move up to 6" while doing so. Additionally one friendly Black Templar units within 6" of your Warlord may roll an extra die and choose the highest when making charge rolls.

Purge the Heretic: Your Warlord gains +1 to hit and wound rolls made against models with the Choas keywords. Additionally all friendly Black Templar units within 6" of your Warlord gain an extra attack when attacking models with the Choas keyword.

I don't think all primaris need to be waving heavy bolt pistols around, I think they should stick with normal bolt pistols and the heavy bolt pistol be improved otherwise reivers will still be weak.

I would rather have grav stay at Heavy 4 but drop the D3 damage over dropping it to 2 shots. Otherwise it's too much like a lascannon.

I don't like the changes for overcharged plasma as IMHO plasma is OP for its points cost and given how rare it is 1in 36 chance of actually overheating that mechanic doesn't balanced it, if it did mortal wounds to vehicals fine, but it should still slay infantry

While I can appreciate where your going with your terminator changes Deathguard terminators & deathshroud and your new iron hands would be insanely durable.

Ice_can wrote:
Iron hands having the FNP rule is probably enough I don't think they need the ignore penalty for moving and firing, if the 6+ fnp isn't enough make the 5+ army wide.

Noted but I'm going to disagree as you need to remember that this applies to vehicles as well, meaning that Iron Hand tanks would be able to move and fire with no penalties. Though I should likely change that to "fire a heavy weapon at no penalty".

Ice_can wrote:
I think your black Templars vow needs work

Eternal Crusader: Your Warlord may perform a Heroic Interventions if the enemy are within 6" (instead of 3") and move up to 6" while doing so. Additionally one friendly Black Templar units within 6" of your Warlord may roll an extra die and choose the highest when making charge rolls.

Purge the Heretic: Your Warlord gains +1 to hit and wound rolls made against models with the Choas keywords. Additionally all friendly Black Templar units within 6" of your Warlord gain an extra attack when attacking models with the Choas keyword.

They probably do! I went through a few different versions honestly and to be honest I'm still not happy with them.

Ice_can wrote:
I don't think all primaris need to be waving heavy bolt pistols around, I think they should stick with normal bolt pistols and the heavy bolt pistol be improved otherwise reivers will still be weak.

If it wasn't for the fact that everyone has the same exact bolt pistol bit (and the fact that the army as a whole is going to be outnumbered by almost every other army out there sans all Terminators or Custodes) among the new Primaris I'd agree with you.

Ice_can wrote:
I would rather have grav stay at Heavy 4 but drop the D3 damage over dropping it to 2 shots. Otherwise it's too much like a lascannon.

Lascannon is S9 and 1 shot. It's also D6 damage meaning it has a higher damage threshold.

Ice_can wrote:
I don't like the changes for overcharged plasma as IMHO plasma is OP for its points cost and given how rare it is 1in 36 chance of actually overheating that mechanic doesn't balanced it, if it did mortal wounds to vehicals fine, but it should still slay infantry

I disagree but that's largely because I don't feel that a multi-wound model should be slagged by a overheated shot like that.

Ice_can wrote:
While I can appreciate where your going with your terminator changes Deathguard terminators & deathshroud and your new iron hands would be insanely durable.

Considering the lore they should be. And insanely durable might make them worth 30ppm base. I'm not against points going up to make units less spammable and shrink the overall size of a Marine army away from trying to be more like Guard or Sisters in terms of body count.

Here's my 2c [Edit: Again, I realized I said the same thing yesterday, nearly verbatim. My bad. Considering they're nearly identical, I think I probably intended to edit the first one instead of making a second one]:

First, I don't think that special rules should be considered when points changes would accomplish the job better. Rules alterations are for when units aren't functioning as intended, points changes are when they're doing what they're supposed to be doing, but they're too expensive for it.

With that in mind, I'll start proposing adjustments:
Chapter Tactics:
CT should apply to all units. If there's no problems with a Leviathan getting any of the buffs, then there shouldn't be any problem with a Predator being able to.
Iron Hands and Imperial Fists need a change to theirs. I like the idea of bolter drill giving exploding 6's.

Stratagems:
Killshot: Use when a Predator is selected to shoot, add 1 to the damage rolls of it's Lascannons and Twin Lascannons.
Linebreaker Bombardment: Use when a Vindicator is selected to shoot. Instead of resolving damage as normal, the target unit takes D3 mortal wounds. Roll a D6 for each unit within X" [3?], on a 4+, that unit takes D3 mortal wounds.
Datalink Telementry: Use when a Whirlwind is selected to shoot, re-roll all it's to-hit rolls for this phase.
All the "bring X unit combo" stratagems need to go, especially with the Rule of 3.
There should also be a stratagem to ignore to-hit penalties when shooting. I can think of a few more to add that might be good, too, but that's not relevant to the exercise at hand.

Changes to Vehicles as a whole
Light Tracked Vehicles [Rhino, Chimera] should be T7.
Medium Tracked Vehicles [Predator, Vindicator] should be T8.
Heavy Tracked Vehicles [Land Raider, Leman Russ] should be T9.
This should give some definition to the vehicle classes, and make dedicated antitank weapons more distinct from lighter antitank weapons. This would make big guns, like the S10 and S9, guns more valuable, and the S7 weapons with lots of shots less desirable. In addition, the above measure you give a reason to have a real tank [Predator] over an armed APC [Razorback].
I can also be convinced that re-instating fire points would be a good move, since it would give transports a purpose other than carting assault units forward or being cheap tanks.

Now, specific unit adjustments:
Vindicator
Sv2 with Siege Shield.
Demolisher Cannon: Heavy 2d6, S10, AP3, D2 [3, maybe?], R24"
Currently, the Demolisher Cannon is kind of anemic, and not worth twice the price of a Battle Cannon in anyway. In addition, with a few high power shots, it's basically similar to the Predator, with greater unreliability. With more shots, it would threaten a greater variety of units, clearing out medium infantry and heavy infantry and still presenting a serious threat to vehicles. The above vehicle toughness overall would also help it, making it's S10 worth more than a Predator's S9 or S7 or a Leman Russ's S8.

Land Raider
Power of the Machine Spirit: This vehicles ignore the penalty for firing and moving heavy weapons. In addition, this vehicle may fire its weapons in the shooting phase even if it fell back in the movement phase.
This alone should make the land raider fairly passable with a points adjustment. Why would you chose to comparative un-safety of the Land Raider over Deep Strike? Well, 10"+8" gives a 6" charge, as opposed to a 9" charge out of deep strike. In addition, the tough Land Raider can lead the way with it's own 4" charge, absorbing overwatch to protect your other units, and then falling back next turn to continue shooting and proving close support for it's cargo.

Whirlwind
Whirlwind Missile Launcher: Heavy 4d6, S6/5, AP-/1, D1, R60" Indirect.
This should make the whirlwind effective against light and medium infantry of all kinds, and basically a Space Marine Wyvern.

Drop Pod
Drop Pod Assault: When this unit enters play from reserve on the first turn, it does not have to arrive within the controlling player's deployment zone.
This should give you a reason to have a drop pod. Right now, they're kind of redundant and cost a lot of points. This would allow them to add a unique feature and ability to their army.

Meltaguns
In line with the vehicle changes proposed above, and in the spirit of the old armorbane, the melta rule should be double strength at close range. This would make them as they were in previous editions, effective against light but not heavy vehicles far away, but effective against everything up close.

Moving on to infantry now...
I don't think Terminators or Tactical Marines require a rule change, just points adjustment. The vehicles above were altered because they didn't feel to me to have purpose, and these changes define them or separate them from other options. Tactical Marines and Terminators do have a role, and fill their role as intended. I also feel like this trend of making marineier marines just isn't really the way things should go. We had Tacticals and Terminators. Then there were Centurions, which were even marineier Terminators. Now there's Primaris and there's Gravis, not to mention Custodes and even-more-ridiculous Custodes Terminators. Like somewhere, a line was crossed. I can be convinced to consider Terminators at T5, to make them an upgrade as opposed to a sidegrade to Primaris, but mostly I think they need a cost reduction. I definitely don't think power armor troops need something special like AP for bolters or damage reduction, I think they just need to be cheaper by maybe 2 or 1 point, which will both increase the unit toughness and firepower to probably acceptable margins.

Absolutely in No way should a Leman Russ Chassis be Toughness 9.
T9 should be for LOW, not MBT'S, Landradiers being T9 makes sence as it was always in par with IG LoW and outclassed Leman Russes.
Also the lore doesn't support that a Leman russ should just straight outclass a predator. It was tougher from the front and weaker side and rear.

Exploding 6's for Imperial fists should probably be limited to non pistol bolt weapons.

Ice_can wrote:
Absolutely in No way should a Leman Russ Chassis be Toughness 9.
T9 should be for LOW, not MBT'S, Landradiers being T9 makes sence as it was always in par with IG LoW and outclassed Leman Russes.
Also the lore doesn't support that a Leman russ should just straight outclass a predator. It was tougher from the front and weaker side and rear.

Exploding 6's for Imperial fists should probably be limited to non pistol bolt weapons.

Leman Russ was 14/13/10. Predator was 13/11/10. I just went by vehicle category, though. A Predator has been a medium tank, while a Leman Russ has been a heavy tank for at least a long time, with special rules relating to it's general heavy-and-slow-ness. That's also why it's T8 while other tanks are T7.

But this isn't about the Leman Russ, and whether or not it should be re-designated as a medium tank with medium-tank rules, because that's fine. this is about the difference between Razorbacks, Predators, and Land Raiders. 11/11/10 and 13/11/10 are both T7, right now, and that's an issue. I think increasing toughness of heavier vehicles is the solution, since it will also add greater purpose to heavy antitank systems like Lascannons and Railcannons, while reducing the overall utility of medium AT/Multirole systems like Plasmaguns and Missile Launcher.



With regards to the Leman Russ, making it a medium tank and adding in a heavy tank, possibly the Marcharius, would actually be pretty cool and thematic, but that's not going to happen. I also think that the Leman Russ should, without a doubt, lose to shoot-twice effect on it's gun, because it's really just a patch for the fact that the Battle Cannon isn't good. This is a case of trying to progressively add special rules to try to fix things, and why you should figure out why something isn't good and address that from the source.