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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
To which Termies got better:
7th ed: Power Axe wounded on a 3+, and forced Invuln saves
8th ed: Same choice is a Sword now - wounds on a 4+, forced Invuln save, but needs two unsaved wounds to kill. Less than half as good.

7th ed: Power Maul wounded on a 2+, but allowed a 2+ armor save.
8th ed: Wounds on a 3+, but reduces armor save to a 3+. However, you need 2 unsaved wounds. So this got worse too.

AP3 weapons that are now AP-2 now kill Termies faster. But how common are they.

Dissies specifically: now the perfect termie killer?
7th: Wound on a 3+, force 5++ invuln
8th: Wound on a 3+, allow a 4+ armor save

StarCannons?
7th: Wound on a 2+, force a 5++
8th: Wound on a 3+, allow a 4+, Termies survive the first wound on an additional 3+.

They aren't *less* survivable even to things like non-IoM Plasma. Even the Plasma Gun - which is one of the weapons most buffed going into 8th - isn't any better at killing Termies than it was.

Dessie and starcannons are both ap-3. They give 5++ saves. We are talking about things that are AP2 in 7th. Which terms survive a little better about the same - comes down to a damage roll. These weapons also got cheaper. Also - dessie cannon uses to be crap - now it's awesome.

Missle pods - autocannons - rocket launchers - reaper launchers - battle cannons - venom cannons. Basically any weapon that was ap4 or ap 3 (which there are a lot of those) got better against terms.

Neato. Now go ahead and make the rest of the list I requested.

I just listed a host of popular weapons they are less durable against. Essentially every mutli damage weapon that has negative AP but wasn't AP 2 in 7th is going to be better at killing terms and lots of these still wound on 2's with high rate of fire. Battle cannons kill terms at such a high rate it's laughable. it's not like AP2 was rare in 7th but if your opponent didn't have a lot you could really survive a long time with 2+ saves (thingns like scatter bikes) Now? You will never face an opponent that has trouble killing terms. I should know - I played basically 50% pure terminator GK during 7th when I wasn't playing space marines.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Reemule wrote:
Primaris have the Power fist in Boltguantlets don't they?

Yeah, but you can't take that in an Intercessor Squad. Heck, you can't even take a Power Sword in a Reiver squad. I suspect the only reason we can even take Power Swords is because of the Anniversary model having something like one so they went "sure, go with it".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So if Terminators and Primaris don't need D2 protection as much, taking a step back to making it only reduce AP by 1 against weapons of S7 or less (why S7? Because Instant Death used to trigger at S8 and really something that hits at least twice as hard as you are tough would definitely overwhelm your body's ability to take damage, plus it prevents the accidental nerfing of Thunder Hammers and Power Fists and the like) seems like a very small change that could make Marines in general less likely to feel overcharged for their save (since they'd only start losing it against high strength attacks who also have high AP or against weapons with -2 or better AP).

Rather screws Tau players hard, and will also impact prmaris players harshly but whatever. You seem to be set in your view point now.
Really I think the iasue is GW over valuing the better saves this edition and undervalued the bad saves.
Marines just can't throw enough dice around in 8th edition to male anything that changed work for them. Simply put throwing twice the dice is always going to be better than having an extra 16% chance here and there.

Part of my worry is that by bringing the cost of Marines down to meet the new value of their saves they'll turn into just another massed infantry Imperial army. Balancing that is a definite must, which is why I was looking at durability.

And it's not like Tau had any benefit against Marines in previous editions (beyond range and wounding on 3s), so why is it so bad they don't have it this edition? Marines have always been the more durable army that may not have high numbers or high damage output turn by turn but they'd weather casualties better to allow them to have a stronger end game than more chaffe based armies at the cost of a weaker early game due to their lower offensive power.

I ment most Tau shooting is medium strength high volume low AP in 8th edition and their high strength AP rail weapons suffer heavily from being single shot.
It's more that they will suffer a heck of a lot to marine's, and they already suffer to -1 to hit traits even worse than guard.

I still think the answer of morale immune tactically versatile marines would be the way to go. The orders system is very well done and incredibly strong. The same concept should exist for marines. Similar to how deathwatch can switch ammunition.

i Think this is a good fix for marines tell me what you think

Strength 3
Toughness 3
Save 5+
WS4+
BS4+
Leadership 6
Boltgun Rapid Fire 1 Strength 3

Space marine captains can order marine Boltguns to be rapid fire 2
Obviously this nerfs marines a bit so I say we drop them to 4 ppm

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
To which Termies got better:
7th ed: Power Axe wounded on a 3+, and forced Invuln saves
8th ed: Same choice is a Sword now - wounds on a 4+, forced Invuln save, but needs two unsaved wounds to kill. Less than half as good.

7th ed: Power Maul wounded on a 2+, but allowed a 2+ armor save.
8th ed: Wounds on a 3+, but reduces armor save to a 3+. However, you need 2 unsaved wounds. So this got worse too.

AP3 weapons that are now AP-2 now kill Termies faster. But how common are they.

Dissies specifically: now the perfect termie killer?
7th: Wound on a 3+, force 5++ invuln
8th: Wound on a 3+, allow a 4+ armor save

StarCannons?
7th: Wound on a 2+, force a 5++
8th: Wound on a 3+, allow a 4+, Termies survive the first wound on an additional 3+.

They aren't *less* survivable even to things like non-IoM Plasma. Even the Plasma Gun - which is one of the weapons most buffed going into 8th - isn't any better at killing Termies than it was.

Dessie and starcannons are both ap-3. They give 5++ saves. We are talking about things that are AP2 in 7th. Which terms survive a little better about the same - comes down to a damage roll. These weapons also got cheaper. Also - dessie cannon uses to be crap - now it's awesome.

Missle pods - autocannons - rocket launchers - reaper launchers - battle cannons - venom cannons. Basically any weapon that was ap4 or ap 3 (which there are a lot of those) got better against terms.

Neato. Now go ahead and make the rest of the list I requested.

I just listed a host of popular weapons they are less durable against. Essentially every mutli damage weapon that has negative AP but wasn't AP 2 in 7th is going to be better at killing terms and lots of these still wound on 2's with high rate of fire. Battle cannons kill terms at such a high rate it's laughable. it's not like AP2 was rare in 7th but if your opponent didn't have a lot you could really survive a long time with 2+ saves (thingns like scatter bikes) Now? You will never face an opponent that has trouble killing terms. I should know - I played basically 50% pure terminator GK during 7th when I wasn't playing space marines.

You didn't name a host, and that isn't even what I asked.

I'm asking specifically for a list of weapons they're actually less durable against. Do that and I'll give you the list of everything they're more durable to. The results might shock you.

I have to admit I haven't read this whole thread, because well... who would?

But as a Chaos player, something I'd say needs to be done is to expand the legion traits to more units.

I mean... don't all the other races have their traits cover every unit in their army?

Niiru wrote:
I have to admit I haven't read this whole thread, because well... who would?

But as a Chaos player, something I'd say needs to be done is to expand the legion traits to more units.

I mean... don't all the other races have their traits cover every unit in their army?

Don't worry, it's already on the list!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
To which Termies got better:
7th ed: Power Axe wounded on a 3+, and forced Invuln saves
8th ed: Same choice is a Sword now - wounds on a 4+, forced Invuln save, but needs two unsaved wounds to kill. Less than half as good.

7th ed: Power Maul wounded on a 2+, but allowed a 2+ armor save.
8th ed: Wounds on a 3+, but reduces armor save to a 3+. However, you need 2 unsaved wounds. So this got worse too.

AP3 weapons that are now AP-2 now kill Termies faster. But how common are they.

Dissies specifically: now the perfect termie killer?
7th: Wound on a 3+, force 5++ invuln
8th: Wound on a 3+, allow a 4+ armor save

StarCannons?
7th: Wound on a 2+, force a 5++
8th: Wound on a 3+, allow a 4+, Termies survive the first wound on an additional 3+.

They aren't *less* survivable even to things like non-IoM Plasma. Even the Plasma Gun - which is one of the weapons most buffed going into 8th - isn't any better at killing Termies than it was.

Dessie and starcannons are both ap-3. They give 5++ saves. We are talking about things that are AP2 in 7th. Which terms survive a little better about the same - comes down to a damage roll. These weapons also got cheaper. Also - dessie cannon uses to be crap - now it's awesome.

Missle pods - autocannons - rocket launchers - reaper launchers - battle cannons - venom cannons. Basically any weapon that was ap4 or ap 3 (which there are a lot of those) got better against terms.

Neato. Now go ahead and make the rest of the list I requested.

I just listed a host of popular weapons they are less durable against. Essentially every mutli damage weapon that has negative AP but wasn't AP 2 in 7th is going to be better at killing terms and lots of these still wound on 2's with high rate of fire. Battle cannons kill terms at such a high rate it's laughable. it's not like AP2 was rare in 7th but if your opponent didn't have a lot you could really survive a long time with 2+ saves (thingns like scatter bikes) Now? You will never face an opponent that has trouble killing terms. I should know - I played basically 50% pure terminator GK during 7th when I wasn't playing space marines.

You didn't name a host, and that isn't even what I asked.

I'm asking specifically for a list of weapons they're actually less durable against. Do that and I'll give you the list of everything they're more durable to. The results might shock you.

I don't see the point in making a list. If you already want to make the half they are better against, why not go ahead and make the whole thing? Lol

Realistically, it doesn't matter if terminators are durable against 75% of the weapons in the game (quite possible) if they die very easily to the other 25%, and the enemy army is likely to have enough of those weapons to kill them, and they cost too much to take a lot of.

Without some kind of damage reduction, they will always drop dead to 2 damage guns because those weapons tend to have relatively high rates of fire.

I could see going with more of a middle ground option though and only having them ignore 1AP with the rest of Marines and then buffing their WS/BS by one. Then they'd hit a bit harder and not die to as many auto cannons.

jcd386 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
To which Termies got better:
7th ed: Power Axe wounded on a 3+, and forced Invuln saves
8th ed: Same choice is a Sword now - wounds on a 4+, forced Invuln save, but needs two unsaved wounds to kill. Less than half as good.

7th ed: Power Maul wounded on a 2+, but allowed a 2+ armor save.
8th ed: Wounds on a 3+, but reduces armor save to a 3+. However, you need 2 unsaved wounds. So this got worse too.

AP3 weapons that are now AP-2 now kill Termies faster. But how common are they.

Dissies specifically: now the perfect termie killer?
7th: Wound on a 3+, force 5++ invuln
8th: Wound on a 3+, allow a 4+ armor save

StarCannons?
7th: Wound on a 2+, force a 5++
8th: Wound on a 3+, allow a 4+, Termies survive the first wound on an additional 3+.

They aren't *less* survivable even to things like non-IoM Plasma. Even the Plasma Gun - which is one of the weapons most buffed going into 8th - isn't any better at killing Termies than it was.

Dessie and starcannons are both ap-3. They give 5++ saves. We are talking about things that are AP2 in 7th. Which terms survive a little better about the same - comes down to a damage roll. These weapons also got cheaper. Also - dessie cannon uses to be crap - now it's awesome.

Missle pods - autocannons - rocket launchers - reaper launchers - battle cannons - venom cannons. Basically any weapon that was ap4 or ap 3 (which there are a lot of those) got better against terms.

Neato. Now go ahead and make the rest of the list I requested.

I just listed a host of popular weapons they are less durable against. Essentially every mutli damage weapon that has negative AP but wasn't AP 2 in 7th is going to be better at killing terms and lots of these still wound on 2's with high rate of fire. Battle cannons kill terms at such a high rate it's laughable. it's not like AP2 was rare in 7th but if your opponent didn't have a lot you could really survive a long time with 2+ saves (thingns like scatter bikes) Now? You will never face an opponent that has trouble killing terms. I should know - I played basically 50% pure terminator GK during 7th when I wasn't playing space marines.

You didn't name a host, and that isn't even what I asked.

I'm asking specifically for a list of weapons they're actually less durable against. Do that and I'll give you the list of everything they're more durable to. The results might shock you.

I don't see the point in making a list. If you already want to make the half they are better against, why not go ahead and make the whole thing? Lol

Realistically, it doesn't matter if terminators are durable against 75% of the weapons in the game (quite possible) if they die very easily to the other 25%, and the enemy army is likely to have enough of those weapons to kill them, and they cost too much to take a lot of.

Without some kind of damage reduction, they will always drop dead to 2 damage guns because those weapons tend to have relatively high rates of fire.

I could see going with more of a middle ground option though and only having them ignore 1AP with the rest of Marines and then buffing their WS/BS by one. Then they'd hit a bit harder and not die to as many auto cannons.

The point of the list proves it's the most durable edition for Terminators, and once again we prove their issue is their offense abilities. Which they have none of.

Just tabled my friend with GK VS DE.

How? Bad list on his part, no unit priority, poor weapon choices, questionable tactical decisions

Honestly, my meta my incredibly weak compared to what I hear on here. My 2 prime units were a 10 man terminator squad and a LR crusader, good luck running them anywhere slightly competitive.

Though my Ven dread with twin auto cannons put lots of work in with Astral aim.

But the actual way I won was from the fact that he doesn't know disintegrator cannons are a thing and I'm not a good enough sport to tell him about them. Also I broke my 6 month losing streak today


If there was one good thing I had to say about GKs is this: force weapons are great as they make units that rely on FnP rolls (at least 1 wound models) moot and they can(huge can) make a single wound deal good damage. But that's kinda it....

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The point of the list proves it's the most durable edition for Terminators, and once again we prove their issue is their offense abilities. Which they have none of.

So this has been going back and forth for a minute now so I'm going to put my two thrones in:
Terminators are more heavily punished by weapon AP. Previously they only lost armour saves against power weapons and AP 1 or 2 weapons. Now they lose that save they pay heavily for against even weapons that used to be AP4. This isn't an opinion, it's basic fact. It's also fact that D2 weapons have become VERY prevelant because they cost less than heavier weapons, have more shots than heavier weapons AND have more consistent damage than heavier weapons. This makes for an environment were you're more likely to lose Terminators faster, and to weapons you used to get full saves against.

The only gain they had was against AP0, D1 weapons due to gaining an extra wound. Too bad most people weren't trying to use those weapons to kill Terminators with most of the time anyways.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The point of the list proves it's the most durable edition for Terminators, and once again we prove their issue is their offense abilities. Which they have none of.

So this has been going back and forth for a minute now so I'm going to put my two thrones in:
Terminators are more heavily punished by weapon AP. Previously they only lost armour saves against power weapons and AP 1 or 2 weapons. Now they lose that save they pay heavily for against even weapons that used to be AP4. This isn't an opinion, it's basic fact. It's also fact that D2 weapons have become VERY prevelant because they cost less than heavier weapons, have more shots than heavier weapons AND have more consistent damage than heavier weapons. This makes for an environment were you're more likely to lose Terminators faster, and to weapons you used to get full saves against.

The only gain they had was against AP0, D1 weapons due to gaining an extra wound. Too bad most people weren't trying to use those weapons to kill Terminators with most of the time anyways.

They only lost durability to previous AP4 weapons if it does more than D1. Otherwise the durability is exactly the same outside specific edge cases like Autocannons.

I've not been having too many issues as marine. Not to say that marines are great (or even good for that matter) but it's nowhere near as bad as people have been making it out to be. I'm curious how many people here have tried non-standard and non-gunline builds. This edition is really about board control, and gunline armies cede board control most of the time.

That being said some changes I'd like to see:
Every special/combi weapon (besides the plasmas) getting a point decrease.

Sniper rifles getting a point decrease

Marines getting an extra attack. With two attacks in CC (3 for sgts) marines actually become decent close quarter combatants. Over a single battle round marines with bolters would do 6 s4 attacks compared to 4 (assuming they survive the CC rounds, which varies wildly on what they're assaulting).

Predators ignoring the -1 to hit for the turret weapon only. Let fast tank be fast?
Killshot strategem retooled to +1 to wound for 2 predators, +1 for damage for 3.

Rhinos getting a minor point drop (10 points) and the firing ports back (GIMME THE FIRE PORTS)


Chapter tactics apply to vehicles. Could go the guard route with differing CT's for the vehicles (although some match vehicles pretty well already)

I don't know how to fix Termintators, but honestly I'd feel something that gives them a benefit when they first deepstrike in (every model in 12" MUST target them or take a -1 to hit if they are the closest enemy unit or something along those lines) and then TP them back using the homers.

As has been discussed endlessly terminators have no real design space for offensive/defensive output. Giving them some sort of utility might be the way to go.

It may have already been mentioned earlier in this thread (I didn't feel like reading through over a dozen pages to find out), but I think the Redemptor Dreadnought would be a more competitive choice if it was T8 instead of T7. It would feel like it's more beefy than a standard Dread then, despite its lack of an invulnerable save. Either that, or give it a 2+ armor save, although that wouldn't help it that much given how many strong weapons with good AP are out there (looking at you Knight Castellan...).